User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:55 pm

Greetings and Happy New Year.

Today at the good ole AUS ramp we had a AA flight inbound to DFW from SFO.

The flight diverted from DFW to my ramp at AUS. Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft, stationed on the ramp with little explanation. Left at the AUS ramp with no complementary hotels or food, hopefully they get home tomorrow.

Despite my allegiance to the airline from my uncle being an international captain, this story makes me sick.     

PS. No mail on Tuesday kids. RIP, Mr President G. Ford.   

[Edited 2006-12-30 10:07:34]
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft

Why keep them on board for so long.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:23 pm

I know that the AA had lots of diversions and then a few hours later CO and others going to IAH/HOU diverted all over the place.

I would imagine with so many diverts the station people we overwelmed and ran out of space.

However they should have at least communicated to the pax as to what was going on.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:03 pm

Clickable links only please!
 
User avatar
TK787
Posts: 3064
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:43 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft, stationed on the ramp with little explanation.

It is not that uncommon.
-I had to sit at the tarmac at ORD, watch 2 full movies, and then go back to the gate to get more fuel and use the restrooms. This was a flight to New York and it was delayed due to weather in NYC.
-2 years ago on a TK flight from IST-JFK, after circling over snowy JFK 8 times, landed in BOS. That was over 11 hours after take off, we were stranded 6 hours on the tarmac. I think the pilot was planning to fly back to JFK, he got some fuel, deiced. But after some pax calling 911, police boarded the plane, still in the middle of tarmac, and in snow storm. We were then pulled to a gate, and eventually ended up in a hotel.
I should do a TR on this one, it was some ordeal.
 
adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:11 am

An article about this incident ran on the cover of the Dallas Morning News. The story is online at:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s/123006dntswstranded.331dc32.html

I posted earlier about this topic but apparently it was deleted. However, I will summarize my points.

1. Why did it take AA 8 hours to clear a gate for this plane disembark? Can't they push an empty plane back and allow this plane to approach? Can't they borrow a gate from another airline to allow this plane to disembark and then push back?

2. After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.

3. In the eight hours this plane held on the tarmac, why did AA not contact the TSA and ask for an exception to allow them to disembark down the rear stairs of the aircraft and into a bus.

In my mind, it is completely unacceptable for AA to hold their customers hostage. It is unfortunate that Congress would need to pass a law mandating decent human behavior but I am afraid AA has so little regard for their customers this is the only way things will change.

Andrew
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4459
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft, stationed on the ramp with little explanation. Left

Were you on the aircraft? How do you know what explanation the passengers were given? Isn't using the word hostage a little extreme? I am sure it was not a pleasant experience. No need to exaggerate.

[Edited 2006-12-30 17:17:57]
 
AlitaliaMD11
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:19 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:20 am

Last summer a SAS flight from CPH diverted to SWF and the passengers had to stay on board because there was no customs facility but the passengers ended up being stuck on the plane for 7 hours because the crew clocked out.

An 8 hour flight from CPH and then 7 hours more on the plane, total of 15 hours.
No Vueling No Party
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5):
2. After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.

I agree. I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.

An exception can be made for International flights, as they are usually not allowed to "enter the country" at the diversion airport, and another exception when the ramp is closed due to lightning, but that's about it.

Stuck on an MD80 for 8 hours? Considering the plane can't even fly for 8 hours, it was not designed for this...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1815
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5):

2. [edit brevity]I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.

I'm not trying to be crass, but this suggestion of passing some national law dealing with pax on a plane on a ramp...seems wildly extreme compared to the sensational article in a newspaper.

Congress?!!


Just because this is the Internet, and everyone is anonymous, doesn't mean that every little problem in the world is suddenly the world's problem, and needs to be dealt with on a large scale.


My first reaction was...who cares? I've been stuck on planes for hours, so what? If you fly EWR-SIN, you would be 1/2 way there in 8 hours. It's not like people got tortured on a plane or something.
They're not handing trophies out today
 
ABQopsHP
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 10:47 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:41 am

Was listening to AUS APPR/TWR/GRND on liveATC.net friday afternoon, and there were lots of diverted flghts there from DFW and IAH. An AA crew made a request to the TWR if the F/O could drop the aft stairs, go down to the belly and let 2 dogs out to potty in a grassy area near where the a/c was holding. They wanted to make sure it was not an active area. A few minutes later the TWR came back and said yes as soon as an airport ground ops person came out to supervise. That was mighty nice of the flight deck to think about the dogs. Id venture to say the pax must have been on board worried about their pets.
A line is evidence that other people exist.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:52 am

Cool story.

Yep, all that weather in Texas yesterday is heading to MSY today, gonna get nasty here in a while.

http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...ther/getForecast?query=new+orleans

[Edited 2006-12-30 19:55:12]
Clickable links only please!
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:53 am

So what. I was stuck in a NWA plane for over 8 hours in Japan a couple of months ago this after a flying all the way from Portland Oregon. The FA's didn't even come by with water after their prelanding service which happened about 2 hours prior to our diversion (so 10 hours not even offered a cup of water). I've been stuck on a United Express (ACA) plane for 12 hours we were just flying from Oklahoma city to ORD. Similar happened on a Continental Express flight they let us off the plane after about 3 hours to sit in the terminal for an additional 5 hours but the terminal was so tiny it didn't make much difference and it had no services. Let's see who else have I been stuck on for hours, oh yeah just about every airline. Diversions happen and often supplies, gates and equipment are not available for that aircraft type or you are often at the mercy of another airline when it is available. Rolling delays stretch out and the airlines have no control over it. With crew legalities a return to the gate can mean a cancellation in an offline city. It's not like any airline want this to happen and they do their best to try to fix it. Sometimes it's just not possible. At least AA carries (or at least used to) an emergency supply of snacks in case of delay.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:54 am

If you're ever in such a situation, all you have to do is stand up, and announce to the passengers that if anyone would like to disembark in the terminal, all they have to do is phone 911 and report that they are being held captive. Don't say "hostage," because that wouldn't be true. The FAs will notice this, inform the captain, and the airline will immediately bring the aircraft to the next available gate to avoid a police boarding and the associated bad press.

Another alternative is to phone the local press. They will then phone the airline to get their side of the story. That will set in motion a chain of phone calls to minimize the bad press which will also result in the aircraft taxiing to the next available gate.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
Sometimes it's just not possible. At least AA carries (or at least used to) an emergency supply of snacks in case of delay.

Whatever.

It is possible, it's always possible EXCEPT for an international delay (customs and immigration issue) or a ramp closer (like frequently happens at TPA due to lightning).

You sat in a CRJ for 12 hours and you think that's fine. Good for you.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
Sometimes it's just not possible. At least AA carries (or at least used to) an emergency supply of snacks in case of delay.

Yes, 20 peanuts for 8 hours, that's over two and hour!

edit-zvezda, you hit the nail on the head. Cellphones are great things.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven Continents Down, None to Go

[Edited 2006-12-30 20:08:03]
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:17 am

If it wasn't weather, it may have had something to do with Presidents 747 being in the immediate air space. The Presidents 747 has been flying to/from PSP for President Ford funeral the last couple of days.

ATC does not allow aircraft to arrive or depart if the President or Vice President aircraft is arriving or departing. Two years ago we were delayed in RNO during a VP Cheney visit.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
Were you on the aircraft?

close enough to smell those glorious lavs.  eyepopping 

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
How do you know what explanation the passengers were given?

It's not difficult to monitor communications.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
Isn't using the word hostage a little extreme?

8+ hrs on S80, in bad weather, with no food, full lavs, and little to drink; hostage isn't far from reality.  tired 

The a/c wasn't hooked up to an apu, they weren't running air units on full.

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 10):
That was mighty nice of the flight deck to think about the dogs.

Saw the F/O with an AA supervisor walking the dogs around near the holding area for diverts. The only upside to this story, IMHO.  checkmark 

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
phone 911

Not a good idea for someone working for an airline, but I wouldn't put it past anybody else in the future.  twocents 
 
LJDRVR
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:08 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 am

Wow,

Uninformed tripe on many topics today.

Those of you who are using the word hostage are mistaken. Only concerned about the bottom line? No, Safety is the first priority. After that, getting you to your destination.

If a flight is diverted, more gas will be added and the situation will be assessed. Usually, if the ground stop program is lifted, ATC is operating with increased in-trail separation. This assures they don't get "slammed" with too many jets just as the situation is improving. If the flight is going to continue, they'll push off the gate as possible to get sequenced into the "que" if they remain at the gate and deplaned, you may get to enjoy your crappy airport food, but you'll be bypassed by other passengers who will arrive at your destination first because their crew got in line. Also consider that operations needs the gate for another aircraft. (What a concept! You're not the only person flying today!) Also consider the flight may be an international arrival at an airport without customs, in which case you'll remain their "prisoner" Even with customs, Airlines aren't going to waste two hours so you can stretch your legs. They'll add the gas and go sit in line so you can get to your destination, which is what you're paying them for.

Congress should make a law? No, you babies shold ride the train. Time to spare, go by air. Want to control the situation? Charter a small jet. $2-3000 bucks an hour is what total control of the situation will cost you. Otherwise, pay your 99 bucks and shutup.

To the gentleman who suggested contacting law enforcement in an attempt to get the Captain to return to the gate, huh? Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:38 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:47 am

I am not excusing what happened, but from the other side of the coin:
Just like the DL flight the other night in LAS that diverted and there was a complaint about the length of time for new equipment to be dragged up and readied-

Lots of thunderstorms in DFW yesterday. I looked at diverts at one point and over 3 hours it was over 70 diversions. The FAA arrivals page showed DFW did not take any traffic for a few hours. So, you've got 70 A/C scatted throughout out stations in TX/OK/LA/TN. So AUS gets extra planes on the ground. AUS is not staffed to handle these extra flights (and don't tell me they don't want to pay people extra - give me a break, we'll pay what we have to, it makes life easier on everyone), it takes ramp crew and gate agents to be there to do it. They are off working scheduled flights. Even if they have a scheduled flight to DFW on the gate and it's empty, the amount of time to push it off, park it, bring another aircraft in and let those people off is too long. The dispatchers and crew have no idea what the FAAs plans are, so even if it is possible, do we coordinate getting 4 or 5 planes to one gate, unloaded and pushed off? What happens if the flight "A" is released when flight "B" is being brought to the gate? Do we stop bringing "B" a/c in and go get "A"? The people on a/c "B" will be pissed, and because of the delay the "A" flight may miss the wheels up time. Too many factors for all of that. Yeah, it sucks, stuck on an aircraft for anything longer than 2 hours sucks, I don't care what kind of equipment it is but operational constraints and thunderstorms happen. It's an assumed risk when traveling……just like people being pissed in DEN for being stuck there a few days - would you drive your car in that?

Happy New Years to all and let the let the flames being…….  

[Edited 2006-12-30 20:55:43]
Over-moderation sucks
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18):
Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.

Actually law enforcement have been called before (as noted in the several stories posted above) and folks have been deplanned because of it. Aside from the fact many cops are incompetant boobs, they will not read you the riot act. Is it a good idea to call? Well that gets the standard it depends answer.

I fly corporate jets, it is more than 3k these days for a normal trip!


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven Continents Down, None to Go
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
User avatar
TK787
Posts: 3064
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:43 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18):
To the gentleman who suggested contacting law enforcement in an attempt to get the Captain to return to the gate, huh? Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.

I think you mean Zvezda, but I have first hand experience on this matter. (Reply 4). After an 11 hour flight from IST, TK flight no.1 landed in BOS on Jan 26th, 2005. We parked somewhere at the end of a runway for about 4 hours before the captain made any announcements. But before that people started calling TK office, Turkish consulates, anyone at high places and finally 911. First, 3 police cars came to the left hand side of the plane. Then shortly after more and eventually they (at least three) boarded the plane with one of those trucks with stairs. Asked if we were OK?, listened to complaints, and one hour later we were at a gate.
In our case, no information from the cockpit, long flight, snow storm, a full 343 with 270 on board with no water or food left at this point made people to act this way. No one got arrested. TK afterwards offered me 5000 miles on their mileage program, I laughed.
 
hamad
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 6:29 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
Were you on the aircraft? How do you know what explanation the passengers were given? Isn't using the word hostage a little extreme? I am sure it was not a pleasant experience. No need to exaggerate.

i don't think he was exagerating, (i would have used the same term) 8 hours is a long time to sit on a parked airplane.
#1 they don't serve food on domestic (in case that was a domestic flight). I am sure that there were elders, children and people with dietary needs, and they had to get little something to eat, where are they supposed to get that from? and what if you were supposed to get medication, that requires you to get a real "MEAL" and not peanuts?

#2 with AA getting away with MRTC, people can get over the cramping if the plane was in the air, but on the ground..... people will feel that they need to getup just because they are on the ground, and i am sure the attitude from the crew on that flight was "WHATEVER"

i would also describe it as "abuse of power"
PHX - i miss spotting
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5):
After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I agree. I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.

If you feel that way then do something about it! Get on the phone first thing Wednesday morning to the offices of the Senators and Representatives for your area! Don't just keep griping about it, if you feel that way there are likely others just like you that feel that way too. Do something about it!
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 23):
Do something about it!

I doubt any congressional legislation would fly, but there's gotta be some sort of reform for the individual airlines. Regardless of the delay, it would be nice to see an official policy for an airline to not keep passengers waiting on a stranded a/c longer than say 2-3 hrs? I know the reasoning behind keeping pax on an a/c is to eliminate the financially responsibility the airline would incur, but 8 hrs is ridiculous.  no 
 
NZKTBOY
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:46 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:39 am

Thats bad very bad. did they get any compensation?
Do i have to live here??
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5):
2. After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry



Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5):
In my mind, it is completely unacceptable for AA to hold their customers hostage. It is unfortunate that Congress would need to pass a law mandating decent human behavior but I am afraid AA has so little regard for their customers this is the only way things will change.

Do you really think this is what AA wanted?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
If you're ever in such a situation, all you have to do is stand up, and announce to the passengers that if anyone would like to disembark in the terminal, all they have to do is phone 911 and report that they are being held captive. Don't say "hostage," because that wouldn't be true. The FAs will notice this, inform the captain, and the airline will immediately bring the aircraft to the next available gate to avoid a police boarding and the associated bad press.

This has to be the dumbest advice of all time. What is the difference between captive and hostage  Confused and I think the point was that there was no available gate thus being stuck on the tarmac.

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 22):
#2 with AA getting away with MRTC, people can get over the cramping if the plane was in the air, but on the ground..... people will feel that they need to getup just because they are on the ground, and i am sure the attitude from the crew on that flight was "WHATEVER"

i would also describe it as "abuse of power"

This one really made me laugh hard. Whatever  Wow!  Wow!

Quoting Queso (Reply 23):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I agree. I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.

Without happy pax there would be no bottom line. What should the law be? You shall make the pax happy at all times and cater to there wishes no matter what.

If you feel that way then do something about it! Get on the phone first thing Wednesday morning to the offices of the Senators and Representatives for your area! Don't just keep griping about it, if you feel that way there are likely others just like you that feel that way too. Do something about it!

I have seen some useless posts on this site but some of the above take the cake. Flying is not a right. It is a privilege

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 9):
My first reaction was...who cares? I've been stuck on planes for hours, so what? If you fly EWR-SIN, you would be 1/2 way there in 8 hours. It's not like people got tortured on a plane or something

 checkmark 

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
It's not like any airline want this to happen and they do their best to try to fix it. Sometimes it's just not possible.

 checkmark   checkmark 

quote=LJDRVR,reply=18]Congress should make a law? No, you babies should ride the train. Time to spare, go by air. Want to control the situation? Charter a small jet. $2-3000 bucks an hour is what total control of the situation will cost you. Otherwise, pay your 99 bucks and shut up.[/quote]

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
no available gate thus being stuck on the tarmac

Negative. There were ample gates available. FYI, there is no tar used in the making of runways, taxiways, and ramps.  duck 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. No need to be harsh mate.

Hi ho hi ho, off to another glorious night at the ramp.  airplane 
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:38 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 24):
Regardless of the delay, it would be nice to see an official policy for an airline to not keep passengers waiting on a stranded a/c longer than say 2-3 hrs? I know the reasoning behind keeping pax on an a/c is to eliminate the financially responsibility the airline would incur, but 8 hrs is ridiculous.

Yeah it would be nice to see some kind of policy and internally, at airlines guidelines (read - policies) exist, but sometimes there is nothing you can do. The policy at all airlines is to get from scheduled point 'a' to point 'b' as quickly as possible, but it can't always happen. Therefore, policies at airlines can't always be followed (just like most airlines have policies that the cheapest ticket can't be upgraded, but sometimes it is).

The idea that keeping pax on an a/c to eliminate financial responsibility is ridiculous. What financial responsibility? In this sue-happy country it is going to cost American more money to settle the lawsuits these whiners will file than it would have to deploy the slides, repair them and pay the fines to the FAA for dumping a full a/c load of people onto the ramp at AUS for no real reason.
Over-moderation sucks
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
What is the difference between captive and hostage Confused

A hostage is someone being held captive for ransom. The airline didn't contact the passengers' families and demand money for their release, therefore it was not a hostage situation.
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
What is the difference between captive and hostage Confused

A hostage is someone being held captive for ransom. The airline didn't contact the passengers' families and demand money for their release, therefore it was not a hostage situation.

But I believe that for either one to be true you have to have intent. But still to call 911 and say either of these is idiotic. I understand the frustration but that does not alleviate or solve the problem. A small airport jammed with weather diverts does not have the capability to handle the problem. Jammed gates, ramp, overloaded ATC and TSA is not an easy thing to overcome even at a large airport. I am sure this was not the only jet that had a long ground delay that day. It is unfortunate but the whining and crying you hear on this site is sometimes to much to handle.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 28):
What financial responsibility?

Instead of keeping pax on the a/c for 8 hrs and eventually getting them to their FD the airline does the following:


  • Send mobile stairs to a/c.
  • Transport all pax to terminal.
  • Unload all bags and transport to terminal.
  • Provide transportation to nearby Airport Hilton.
  • Provide meal vouchers for all pax.
  • Provide lodging for all displaced pax.
  • Rebook all pax on following day.
  • Schedule another flight to get pax to FD.



Financial responsibility is eliminated with the airline keeping pax on the a/c. They are taking a shot-in-the-dark gamble that no pax are gonna complain. Worse case scenario, they through some vouchers to their frequent flyers; case closed. So sad.
 
TPAnx
Posts: 1007
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:53 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 16):
of days.

ATC does not allow aircraft to arrive or depart if the President or Vice President aircraft is arriving or departing.

IIRC, the "hold" on arrivals and departures is usually ten to fifteen minutes.
And I believe that applies only if POTUS or the Veep is on the aircraft..don't know if that was the case in this instance..
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:38 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 31):
Instead of keeping pax on the a/c for 8 hrs and eventually getting them to their FD the airline does the following:

Understand what you mean but when a diversion is for a thunderstorm the airline has no idea when the aircraft is going to be released. When this particular flight, or any of the others diverted yesterday, it was not known there would be an 8 hour delay to get a gate. So many flights diverting at once, they add up fast. Even if the airline's ops in AUS says don't send another we have too many, the dispatcher may be at the point, fuel-wise, that AUS is the only place they can go. At that point the ops agent is told 'too bad, he's coming'.

I agree with getting the steps to the a/c and pax to the terminal if possible, but again, some terminals are only so big yet some ramps can hold a lot of a/c...they could get overloaded easily. I disagree with "transport to the airport Hilton"...it's a weather delay. IF the flight canceled, yeah, even though it's wx, sure get 'em rooms, but a delay?
Over-moderation sucks
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:57 am

This should be an airline policy, across the industry, not a law. If you were in charge, ask yourself, how would you treat your family? This is a case of you spending your money, expect a level of service, and then the provider provides a new level of service, though not what you were promised. I would bitch, and I would bitch like hell.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Left at the AUS ramp with no complementary hotels or food

It was friggin' weather related. What did you want AA to do, fly in to an unsafe weather situation? If you can predict the future, work in AA ops so they'll know how long a weather diversion will last. In any case, no hotels and meals for acts of nature, my friend. If the people had to get off the plane, they should have been told they were on their own and they could retrieve their luggage when the aircraft eventually made it to Dallas.

If you can't handle the unexpected, don't fly.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:24 am

If a USA domestic flight is on a ground stop, diverted where a weather or MX problem for more than 2 hours but less than 4 hours, then where possible, the passengers should be provided free water or other non-alcoholic beverages, some substantual snack or a sandwich. If possible, passangers should be offloaded into a sequestered area (gate area) and reboarded when they can continue the flight. If the circumstances such as with DEN, then one has to make sure pax don't even get on the flight, or they can leave the a/c at the diversion airport. Of course, the offloading/reloading could lose you an hour or more, worse if someone takes off outside the security/gate areas. With Int'l flights, you do have serious security, customs issues that may make it impossible to unload/reload the pax.
If more than 3-4 hours, and if crew duty hours limits will be exceeded and thus more than 4 hours, then passangers must be offloaded from the a/c and allowed to leave the secured area of the airport, and possibly rerouted to other flights.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
With Int'l flights, you do have serious security, customs issues that may make it impossible to unload/reload the pax.

I strongly disagree. When the AF 777 diverted to Irkutsk, the Russian authorities suspended customs and immigration formalities so that the passengers could be bussed to two hotels. That is simple decency based on basic standards of human rights. Denying innocent people access to food, water, and sanitation for the sake of bureaucracy is not a hostage situation; it is a torture situation.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 17):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):
How do you know what explanation the passengers were given?

It's not difficult to monitor communications.

So, how did you listen in on the what the Captain was communicating to his passengers?
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 38):
So, how did you listen in on the what the Captain was communicating to his passengers?

Hi Widget, we had a ramp agent coming home from California with a sick mother. How else would I know about this news and fail to include a link to news when I posted? ??

[Edited 2006-12-31 07:00:14]
 
ordflier
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:47 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:02 pm

Once I was on a flight to LaGuardia and a rather snotty gentleman insisted upon getting on the phone to the Local media to alert them of his "plight" that he was being held captive by an airline. He real beef was that he hadn't been upgraded. The airline had made numerous announcements that the flight would depart the gate at 1800 local, but due to weather issues in the New York area, the flight would not be allowed to take off until 2000.

Announcements were made prior to boarding, and just prior to the cabin door being closed. Once out on the taxiway, the flight crew made the same announcement.
Just prior to 2000, the Captain announced that the weather had still not improved, and our take-off time had been delayed further to 2100. That is when this gentleman went bonkers... he stood up grabbed his cell phone and proceeded to make phone calls to the media. Fifteen minutes later the Captain got on the microphone and announced that the flight would be returning to the gate.

The sad part of the story is that upon returning to the gate the Flight Attendants legality period had passed once the aircraft door was re-opened and the flight cancelled. Luckily for myself I was home in Chicago, but all the other folks (including the pompous jerk) now were stuck in Chicago and as the airline did not cover hotel accommodations due to weather / ATC issues those not in the Chicago area had the option of either sleeping at the airport, or paying for a hotel.

So...moral of the story is this... be careful what you wish for!
ORDflier
 
UKCO
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 10:15 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18):
pay your 99 bucks and shutup.

If people adhered to this mantra all service industries would be a complete mess. Pay your 99 bucks and complain when the minimum level of service isn't met.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2958
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
If possible, passangers should be offloaded into a sequestered area (gate area) and reboarded when they can continue the flight.

Just a thought, why even a sequestered area? On a domestic flight, there is no need to re-enter security when making a connection, so the passengers should be allowed free-roam to the secured areas. Tough shit if they miss the flight back (although the airline must understand many people need to use the restroom, get food, find a phone etc... and allow ample time to return to boarding area). I think IF a gate is available, the diverted plane (once again, assuming it is domestic) should be serviced as necessary, water/drinks and/or food provided as necessary, and allow the passengers to disembark, but communicate that they must be in a position to return to the gate and board promptly when the time comes (I think 10ish minutes should be reasonable between first notification and boarding).

This brings me to a question, in an event such as this, how much time is usually given to a diverted aircraft between the time they're first notified definately of when they can take off, and when their wheels must be off the ground? I'm sure it varies from situation to situation, but are we talking typically a matter of a few minutes, or half an hour or what?

I understand the main problem with this is with a weather-related issue, these planes have a tight window they must get wheels-up to be assured a slot on arrival, and they must be ready to go when they get that notification (see above question as to feasibility), so it might be difficult to get all the passengers on board. As much as they'd like to get off, at the very least, send a servicing truck to bring food/water, and a truck to service the lavatories, regardless of whether on a hard stand, or at a gate.

Just my  twocents 

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
arffguy
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:20 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:28 pm

This reminds me of the American Eagle Saab 340 pilot friend of mine who was waiting about 30th in line to take off by a passenger making phone calls from the back of the plane that their flight had been cancelled.

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 34):
This should be an airline policy, across the industry, not a law. If you were in charge, ask yourself, how would you treat your family?

 checkmark 

The airline and the crews want to get where they are going too. And the gate agents want the plane gone too. They don't sit around thinking "how can I screw these people up today?" Sometimes things just add up to screw up the system. And yes customs is an issue. I used to work ramp control and had planes land unannounced from outside my country and I was not allowed (per my bosses) to let people off. Our airport didn't have on-site customs personnel at that time of the night.

But I have thought that if I was held on the ground for what seemed an eternity I would raise hell too. I guess it would depend on how long it takes a certain person to lose their sanity. Which for some people isn't very long.
Time to spare, go by air.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3625
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
So what. I was stuck in a NWA plane for over 8 hours in Japan a couple of months ago this after a flying all the way from Portland Oregon.

So you are, by any standard, unusually patient. The vast majority of passengers, including me, prepare very differently for a 2 hour flight and a 10 hour flight. Airline prepare their planes (catering, water, IFE, etc...) and crew differently as well. Bottom line, an extra delay is much harder to bear on a shorter flight aboard a narrowbody that barely has enough liquid catering to do the distance without delay than on a widebody with plenty of food, drink and entertainment available.

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18):
If the flight is going to continue, they'll push off the gate as possible to get sequenced into the "que" if they remain at the gate and deplaned, you may get to enjoy your crappy airport food, but you'll be bypassed by other passengers who will arrive at your destination first because their crew got in line.

After being stuck on the ground in a narrowbody for far longer than the flight was originally scheduled to last, I respectfully submit to you that, if given a choice, most passengers would choose the certainty of enjoying "crappy airport food" with the likelyhood of a further delay, over remaining stuck to their seat just so that their flight can be the first one to reach its ultimate destination when it's finally possible to do so.

It is, IMHO, perfectly reasonable for the airline to keep the aircraft ready to go at a moment's notice for a couple of hours of ground stop. When it gets to be over 4 hours on a 2-hour flight and equipment and manpower are available to walk the dogs, it is, again IMHO, excessive and unreasonable to keep passengers in the plane.

I don't believe there ought to be a law, but a clear policy should be made public. I can't profess to know where the line should be, I can't even decide whether the line should be a set amount of time, or a variable amount proportionate to the expected duration of the flight (say 3 hours on the ground for flights of 2 hours or less, and an extra 30 minutes on the ground per extra hour of expected flight time, with a maximum of 8 hours total), with a further condition that water be provided to passengers (anything else would be inhumane, even dogs are treated better).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.

There will always be situations where complying with the law is (nearly) impossible, I'd prefer some FAA guidelines or recommendations. If law there is to be, I'd rather it focuses on the treatment of passengers onboard a grounded flight, such as mandating that water be served every hour (or something like that) and that a catering truck be called to bring in fresh water if necessary, provided it doesn't create a dangerous situation for ground staff, of course (lightning strike, etc..)

Quoting FXramper (Reply 17):
Saw the F/O with an AA supervisor walking the dogs around near the holding area for diverts. The only upside to this story, IMHO.

You don't have to keep me stuck in a plane for 8 hours to get me to wear a leash if that's the price to pay to get out...

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 36):
If possible, passengers should be offloaded into a sequestered area (gate area) and reboarded when they can continue the flight.

May not be practical at all airports, but certainly doable at larger ones. Years ago when I flew UA, I've be sequestered a couple of times in a secure area at IAD while the plane that I had boarded hours earlier was being readied for service. While I believe the main reason for the sequestration was that these were international flights and, legally speaking, the passengers were already outside the US, it had the added advantage that boarding the plane when repairs were done was quick and efficient.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3625
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:40 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 42):
Just a thought, why even a sequestered area?

To keep the passengers from wandering off all over the airport. While I applaud the principle of your "tough shit" approach to passengers who are not present for boarding on time because they're too busy finishing off a Big Mac, let me remind you that the plane isn't going anywhere until the missing passengers' bags are offloaded, something that does take quite sometime.

If, on the other hand, all the passengers are roped off together, no one's holding up departure...
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
tommy777
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:32 am

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:17 pm

First of all, there's a BIG difference being on a SQ 345 that has catering and comfort for a 17 hour flight than being on an aging MD80 with "catering" for a 2 1/2 hours flight, meaning no food except a breakfast cracker and 30" legroom in Y...

Second, it is actually a right to fly these days. The airlines wouldn't survive without the large volum of pax they have today. The airlines have learned to deal with this fact, so should you..

Third, a private jet doesn't cost 2-3000 bucks an hour, you need to couch up more than that... The problem is that your private jet would also be diverted if there's a storm so the only option you have at AUS that a commercial airliners is to actually get of your plane. BUT this can only be done if there are GA facilities or to deplane and get on a bus to the terminal EXACTLY the same possibility as this commercial AA MD80. I'm also quite sure that the members who write that people should just pay the 2-3000 bucks or shut up are the last members on this forum who can actually affort that....

I can see the Captains point of trying to wait with the pax on board to see if the weather got better so they could get the pax, crew and equipment to the final destination. There's a lot of logistics involved by letting people get of the plane that will delay the passengers who decide to stay even more. But 8 hours is NOT acceptable. The Captain made a BAD decition, it happens with ALL airlines, not just AA. Make no mistake, the Captain of this MD could get the passengers bussed to the terminal whenever he wanted during these 8 hours because there was no customs or immigration involved.

To all the members who thinks that episodes like these are just a part of flying, you are right, but if you think it's OK to be stuck on an MD for 8 hours or a CRJ for 12, it means you actually have never been in that situation and you need to try it before posting otherwise...
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Held Hostage On A Plane For 8 Hrs?!

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:56 pm

How about this for an idea...Charter Bus America is based in Austin, Texas...how about grabbing a couple of Charter Bus America coach buses (I'm sure they exist), and hauling one off to Dallas-Fort Worth, where the flight was going, and another off to Houston-Intercontinental, where some of the inconvenienced passengers could be FIMed off to Continental, and which, presumably, wasn't having the same delay problems as Dallas-Fort Worth. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than...hey, I have an idea, we'll just leave these guys on our MD-80's for 8 hours, then let them inside the terminal, make them be forced to fend for themselves for the night, and then tommorrow, if they're lucky, they can attempt to standby on one of our flights from Austin to Dallas.

Sorry, but if brainpower on Amon Carter Boulevard is lacking so badly that nobody thought to call a bus company in this situation, well, let's just say that certain segments of management need to go.

Edited to add: Perhaps it ought to be mentioned that the plane finally arrived at DFW, according to my sources, at 10:38 AM Central Standard Time SATURDAY, as in, nearly twenty-three and a half hours late. No reports on how many passengers were on AA1348 on either Friday's SFO-AUS leg or Saturday's AUS-DFW leg.

[Edited 2006-12-31 10:00:07]
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerohottie, Aircellist, Amwest2United, ASFlyer, av757, CRJ900, Dash9, ek17, F9Animal, Flyinggeek33, Google Adsense [Bot], LAX772LR, Phen, PW100, tmu101, ukjohna, VX321, WaywardMemphian, Yahoo [Bot] and 316 guests