md11sdf
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:11 am

Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:02 am

Greetings from Louisville, Kentucky (KSDF)!
Like many others, I have been reading the A-Net forums for a many years but never became an active member, aside from uploading my scanned prints prior to the Digital-Revolution. Reading the thread about a plane down at SXM is what prompted me to finally jump off the fence and join the party.

I was thinking about those airports that have a large group of spotters and aviation photographers around them during most days. AMS, LHR, HKG, LAX and especially MIA come to mind immediately. I have made two "pilgrimages" to worship at the temple of exotic airliners (Miami) twice. The first time was January of 1997 and I recall seeing many spotters and photographers all aroung the perimeter. Nothing gets more attention than a classic "smoker" on the move. I shoot primarily video and will hold on a 707 or DC-8 taking off until it's several miles out after takeoff, because I LOVE the great clouds of smoke hanging in the sky and the rumble. In August of '97, a Fine Air DC-8-61F (N27UA) crashed a mile off runway 27 Right. How was this tragic event NOT captured by any print or video photographers who were there at the time? Prior to 9-11, you could go on top of the large parking garages near the west end of the airport, by the air cargo terminal. I have shot much video from up there and can't help but feel that there must have been SOMEBODY up there with a camera at the time.

Perhaps someone DID get it, but those images were turned over to the NTSB to aid in the investigation and never made public. I caught several Fine DC-8-61's on my 1997 tapes, but can't read the registrations. Does anyone familiar with these aircraft know if N27UA had strobe lights on it's wingtips? In my October of 1999 MIA visit, I shot a great yellow/green DC-3 landing (N54AA) and later learned (through a search of the photo database) that it crashed less than a year after I had photographed it. It's a spooky feeling...

The closest I have come to capturing an accident on video was in December of '05 when an Atlas Air 747-200F landed with number three and four engine thrust reversers inop. All of the CFR equipment was waiting for it to touch down and idle reverse was used on one and two with heavy braking. The pilot showed great skill keeping the aircraft on the runway, but for a very nervous moment, I thought that it would be ME capturing an accident on video. I was very glad they were successful. Do any of you have similar stories to share?
As my first post, I certainly don't want to give the impression that I am some sort of sick bastard. I have been in love with flying machines since I was a kid on the early 1970's. I was just wondering if an airline accident HAD ever been captured from multiple angles by photographers who were there.

And now for something completely different...
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Terry
LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:45 am

For taste reasons, I doubt airliners.net would post pictures where there was a crash with fatalities...

however, there are a lot of (well not a lot, but a decent handful) pictures on here of planes crashing at airshows where the pilot bailed out and no one was killed.

There are a ton of incident pictures too - planes off the runway, engine scrapes that the old HKG airport.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
For taste reasons, I doubt airliners.net would post pictures where there was a crash with fatalities...

We must be thinking of different Airliners.nets  Wink

There are many here in the database of fatality crashes, and airshows are no exception:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Cordina



Caption:

Fatal accident during Malta Aero GP. Two of the racing aircraft seem to have collided, both aircraft crashing into the sea. Seen here is the second aircraft to crash in the sea, with the pilot seen parachuting. On the surface of the sea, you can see parts of the first aircraft to crash, unfortunately killing the pilot Gabor Varga.

Sadly, "Airliners.net" and "taste" do not belong in the same sentence.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
scarebus03
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:14 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:23 am

Pictures of airline disasters serve to remind those of us in the industry the importance of our respective jobs and doing them correctly.

Md11sdf happy new year and welcome to A.net! Smile

Brgds
SB03
No faults found......................
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:29 am



[Edited 2007-01-01 02:30:23]
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 4):

The ORD Crash? (DC10)
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
zmatt1
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:35 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:47 am

1999 Mandarin MD-11 landing accident.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/81297/plane_hong_kong

[Edited 2007-01-01 02:52:23]
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:00 am

Yep, the ORD crash, AA191. Remarkable photo. Of course we also have the footage of the Mandarin accident in HK, the Air France Concorde disaster, and UA232.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:17 am

Just to be clear, these sorts of photos have definite value. There's a difference between a tragic photo and a morbid or tasteless photo - lots of newsworthy events are tragic, yet photos of them serve several purposes. Is it "tasteless" whenever somebody shows the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination in order to reconstruct the events of that day? What about the Hindenburg disaster? How are photos like those shown above any more tasteless?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3716
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:31 am

Thankfully my witness to a potential crash with cameras ended up nothing more than an display of expert piloting.

One day last May, I was out doing my weekly grocery shopping and as a former wire service photog, I learned over the years to always carry my gear at all times and the following events would prove that to be sage advice. Anywhoo, as my grocery store where I frequent is near IAH, my gut told me to swing by IAH. I soon caught glimpse of 4 News Choppers hovering above runway 9 near the now closed off Cell Phone Lot. I quickly made my way to the lot where there were quite a few vehicles both official and locals. I soon learned that a MSP bound COEX ERJ blew 2 tires on take off and was circling the airport burning off fuel. After 10 minutes or so, HPD showed up in force chasing off all non-essential personal out. However before HPD swept in, I managed a few shots of low flyby....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79103259@N00/308079146/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79103259@N00/308079149/

Later, I made my way to 'C' terminal, assuming that the ERJ would use 9 for it's landing. However I, along with a number of other of curious spectators were informed that the plane would be using one of the 15s. Those of us that could, got into our cars, we made our way to the A/B garage. After an hour or so, COEX 3161 make it's final to 15L (great from a photographer's perspective as it is closest to our vantage point). The plane touches down on the undamaged gear first and then the damaged wheels, while kicking up a lot of smoke....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79103259@N00/308079157/

This photo was submitted to A.Net but was removed due to the fact that I had photoshopped out a light post that was dissecting the center portion of the plane (rather sloppily). Had I not been in such a hurry and notified the screeners of this ahead of time then the photo might still be in the DB, oh well, live and learn.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79103259@N00/308079160/


Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps this is the photo that I should have originally submitted, not quite as dramatic though.

Anyway, that is the closest that I have come to photographing a crash and frankly I hope to never photograph a crash.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2717
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:35 am

I've never photographed an accident / incident in progress (apart from minor incidents), but even if I was witness to one, I'd have to think long and hard about uploading the photo's here. I've got photo's of the helicopter which recently went down in Morecambe Bay, Uk with the loss of 6 lives, and one still missing. The seventh person is unlikely to be found alive, but fingers crossed his boby is found so the berieved family can at least give him a proper send off. As stated in previous posts, my sincere condolances go out to them.

I was in a situated where I had photo's of a perticular aircraft and the British media wanted the photo's as soon as I could send them, and they were offereing silly money for rights to use them. What do you do? It's not a nice position to find yourself in. In one hand, you want to give them permission to use your photo's since you prepared long and hard for them and invested in equipment and time to get them (bearing in mind I'm refering to photo's of the said aircraft, not the actual incident). But on the other hand, there may be, and in my case, there were fatalities in the incident. It's a very hard judgement call on whether to release the photo's to the media. In my case, the photo's were of some of the crew involved doing what they liked best - flying aricraft. In any other situation, there is no way I'd release the photo's, especially when they were going global (they were releases to the BBC Worldwide service amungst others). I selectively released certain photo's of the said aircraft, non-dispict of the aircrew.

It's not a black and white question to ask. I've offered to release the photo's to the people who need to see them. I'll emphasise they aren't of the actual incident, but are some of the last seen of the aircraft before the incident. It's more of a moral issue than anything and not a nice position to be in.

All the best for the new year,

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
For taste reasons, I doubt airliners.net would post pictures where there was a crash with fatalities...

There were several pictures of the AA 762 submitted and approved the day of the engine fire at LAX. Seems the next day they were deleted, and all you can find now is the single shot from across the airport.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4654
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:32 pm

I was witness to the crash (landing) of a Manx Airlines ATP at Manchester a few years ago - I didn't have a camera with me at the time but I will never forget the moment the whole airport fell silent as the props collided with the runway. The sound sent shivers down my spine!

Luckily the pilot averted disaster and no-one was seriously injured. It was impressive in a strange kind of way but not something I wish to see again.

Karl
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:17 pm

I would make to fast copies and give one to authorities if it would help in anyway. Now it probably would not a good idea to show a body, but if your
filming you know where to stop if your uploading and your tape is close up..

Sort of like the saddam hanging , we saw the rope arond the neck just before the pull but we did not see his neck and head twisted around ( ive seen it ugh)

But be concerned of your safety and dont put your own self in the line of fire to become another fatality. If you are able and can be one of the first at the seen, screw the pics and help get the people out of the a/c if possible....
i can see for 80 miles
 
piercey
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:07 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
For taste reasons, I doubt airliners.net would post pictures where there was a crash with fatalities...

As pointed out, they have. There are a few WN 737 MDW shots, and remember YYZ?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0892370/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0892528/M/
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
eddieho
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:52 pm

I was one of the survivors on the Air France 358 flight.... its one of the worst photos I've ever taken and since the accident I have lost much interest as an airline enthusiast. It took a while for me (and other passengers) to recover - its definitely one of the worst experiences in the world. Believe me - you dont want to be a witness or a victim of such accidents, it spoils your entire hobby for you.

Here the photos I had taken - I havent considered uploading them yet to airliners.net:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84123084@N00/340521052/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84123084@N00/340521054/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84123084@N00/340521057/

Currently theres no word on the investigation - even TSB has yet to release their final report to the public... which is sketch.

As for being used in the investigation, I was told by TSB that it was one of the most useful photos for the investigation, as there were not many for the ones that followed the accident immediately.

Air france 358 crash - aug 2 - by Eddie Ho


[Edited 2007-01-01 09:57:28]

[Edited 2007-01-01 09:59:37]
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):

I thought there were no fatalities in the AF crash
Live your dream.
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:14 pm

My god how lucky there are orbs all over those pics,,,,.my freind things these
round things called orbs are good luck and the dead looking over you,,, she took me to a cemetary,,, i took pictures and ill be darned if they werent there,,, i looked the other way there wer none,,, i dont belive in them but i looked it up and it is on the net..
i can see for 80 miles
 
piercey
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:07 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 17):
My god how lucky there are orbs all over those pics

It was raining that day.

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 16):

I thought there were no fatalities in the AF crash

Still a crash in action, and wasn't someone paralyzed in the accident?
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
eddieho
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:30 pm

I really doubt that those orbs are spirited objjects: article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orb_%28paranormal%29

but i do appreciate your thoughts.
 
Qantas747300
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:08 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:46 pm

There is also a few shots of SQ006. The SIA 747-400 that was sadly lost at Taipei on the 31/10/2000. RIP.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 15):
I was one of the survivors on the Air France 358 flight

Eddie, I remember first seeing your pictures shortly after a crash and thought how valuable your photos will be in training cabin crew on evacuation procedures. It was remarkable that you were able to take these pictures; the pictures of people holding their bags as they leave, the failed evacuation slides, and the path of the evacuees are all important safety issues that makes this picture valuable for cabin crew training.

Kudos to you for posting them.

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 15):
ven TSB has yet to release their final report to the public

I was curious about that too...it's been a long while! I hope it is to be released soon.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
Qantas747300
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:08 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:50 pm

Does anybody know what happened to the pilots of AF358 as a result?

Simply amazing shots Eddie. I am sure that they will be of great value. Thankyou for sharing.

Happy new year to all.

Qantas747300
 
DeC
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:32 pm

Eddieho,

Glad you made it out ok and thank you so much for sharing those unbelievable important photos with us. Welcome to my respected users-list.

Btw, did you ever had the chance to write something (an article, post, blog entry etc) about your experience that day and / or would you or anyone else know of a similar article by another survivor of the crash? It really interests me.

Thanks a lot,
D
DEC
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2202
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:35 pm

Well there is this shot of the TWA DC-9 that had a midair collision shortly after departure, the picture was taken as it was pushing back.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 21):
the pictures of people holding their bags as they leave, the failed evacuation slides, and the path of the evacuees are all important safety issues that makes this picture valuable for cabin crew training.

Indeed, a lot of our training involves looking back at previous accidents & incidents and seeing what the crew had to deal with.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:13 pm

The Ramstein disaster is well covered on a.net. I never thought those pictures were inappropriate.




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Heesters



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Carlisle



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Carlisle




pelican
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 25):
The Ramstein disaster is well covered on a.net. I never thought those pictures were inappropriate.

Indeed. Life and death happen. And accidents happen. While some restraint is fine, censoring any content which may be perceived as questionable or morbid is a slippery slope. Who decides exactly? And is it a good idea to live in a bubble in denial?

I remember Ramstein well. A horrible day. But the pictures and footage helped the investigation, and thus made aviation safer.

It's also funny how despite the footage of the 320 crash at Mulhouse, the cause of the accident is still routinely misintepreted by most, including the media (although they do have sensationalistic motives here). Pictures help, but apparently they are not good enough for some people  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 15):
I was one of the survivors on the Air France 358 flight

I feel very sorry for you, but a Little bit of advice. Think positive and do your best to put it behind you as difficult as this may seem. I was invovled in crash investigation many years ago and it was a time before I got over it. But time heals all wounds. All the best to you
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
md11sdf
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:11 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:21 am

Hello all,
thank you for responding to my post. Eddie, I am glad that it was my post that prompted you to show your incredible pictures. I understand that it was hard for you and we are all grateful. The A-Net screeners WILL allow the incredible photos taken from the roadway of the AF A340 on fire, I suppose because nobody was killed. I had forgotten about Don Boyd's great Miami shot's of landing gear related emergency landing photos. Nobody (thankfully) killed as well. His CL-44 belly-landing shots are amazing!

We, as aviation photographers can provide valuable information and images for investigators if something goes wrong, yet we are (post 9-11) treated like drug dealers by the Police at most airports. I will never understand that...

Hi Thomasphoto60, I went to your image site and WOW! great shots from IAH!! Thanks for sharing them.

It is nice to know that despite the, as I call them FLUGHAVEN GESTAPO, there are still great photos being taken from the perimeter fences at the great airports of the world. I don't know if it is just because of the UPS WORLDPORT here in Louisville, but SDF is a VERY spotter/photographer unfriendly airport. If you are in one spot for more than five minutes, the cops WILL come run you off after they are done interrogating you. One day they will learn that we can actually be a help to them if an accident happens.

Cheers! md11sdf
LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
 
dc10rules
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:41 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Qantas747300 (Reply 22):
Does anybody know what happened to the pilots of AF358 as a result?

I was wondering this as well of the status of the WN MDW overrun crew.

Happy 2007!
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Dc10rules (Reply 29):
I was wondering this as well of the status of the WN MDW overrun crew.

I believe they were placed on paid admin leave and have been back flying for sometime now...
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 24):
Well there is this shot of the TWA DC-9 that had a midair collision shortly after departure,

It was approaching DAY when the twin beech hit it. March of 67 if I remember without looking it up.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 5):
The ORD Crash? (DC10)

That picture by the way is the famous av-photo IMO.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Qantas747300 (Reply 20):
There is also a few shots of SQ006. The SIA 747-400 that was sadly lost at Taipei on the 31/10/2000. RIP.

Initially there was a video on that that someone in a departing aircraft shot that captured the fireball...such a tragic moment, very sad.

That crash also has a very big personal meaning to me as at one point in time my parents were booked on that exact flight, then a week or two earlier switched their routing (via Europe to the states and not via Taiwan), and then wound up cancelling the trip altogether a few days prior. I'll never forget the look on their face the next morning when they woke up...they were quite disturbed, and it rattled me too as I had taken that flight a number of terms a few months earlier. I just can't imagine what the families went through...and to think that I was nearly in the same boat possibly makes me count my blessings more and more...My heart definately goes out to everyone affected by that tragedy...

I hope the news for the Adam Air plane crash in Indonesia today turns out to be good and that there are survivors although from what i am hearing it doesn't look good...

*sigh* what a sad way to start of 2007 in the aviation world. Sad
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Photographers At Airport Capturing A Crash

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 10):
t's not a black and white question to ask. I've offered to release the photo's to the people who need to see them.

But when you release the photograph to government officials (such as investigators) doesn't the photograph become part of the public record...and, thereby, you lose control of it?

There are few exemptions for public records, though I understand that morgue photographs have been exempted in some jurisdictions.