LY777
Topic Author
Posts: 2282
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:06 am

Which airlines use PW engines to power their 777s?
I know about Egyptair.But who else?
And are these engines more or less powerful than the GE90 and the RR engines that power the 777-200ER?
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4920
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:10 am

United, who is a traditional P&W customer, operates P&W-powered 777s.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:25 am

ANA (except the -300ER) and KL
 
LY777
Topic Author
Posts: 2282
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:33 am

I thought that KL 777 were powered with GE?!
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:33 am

AI, whose 777s are ex-UA are all PW powered. PW has the lowest powered engines on the 772 but the highest available thrust on the 773 with the PW 4098 (non-ER), however these aren't popular because of the high fuel consumption. KE is the operator of this type.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
And are these engines more or less powerful than the GE90 and the RR engines that power the 777-200ER?

Yes, the P&W PW4090 is the weakest of the three powerplants available for the 777-200ER at 90,000lbs. The Rolls-Royce Trent 895 generates 93,400 lb and the General Electric 90-94B generates 93,700 lb, all per Boeing's website at http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.html.

P&W does offer a 99,000lb version - the PW4098 - but it is used only on the 777-300A model, I believe.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):

Sorry, meant KE!
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:21 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
I thought that KL 777 were powered with GE?!

They sure are  Cool:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maurits Vink

I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
LY777
Topic Author
Posts: 2282
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:48 am

The GE are the most impressive!!!I enjoyed them on AF 772s last summer!!!
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
MarkC
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:10 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:58 am

JAL
Vietnam
Air China

Pratt took all the 4098's back from Korean. There are now no operators of this engine.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
P&W does offer a 99,000lb version - the PW4098 - but it is used only on the 777-300A model, I believe.

As was mentioned, no PW4098s are currently in service anywhere, and though they remain an option, they aren't really, due to their significant technical issues, which was the reason PW was forced to take them back in the first place.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 8):
The GE are the most impressive!!!I enjoyed them on AF 772s last summer!!!

The GE90-94's on the 772ER for AF are the most powerful engines on the 772ER frame, and in general, the GE90s are known to have the lowest burn rate at cruise of the 3 major engine choices (GE90, PW4000, and RR Trent 800), however they are also the heaviest engines available. The RR Trents have the highest SFC at cruise (though the difference between the three engines is not that significant anyhow), and by some number of tons, the lightest engine available. The PW4000 slots between the two in this regard.

As for US operators of the 777, UA's fleet uses PW's, AA uses RR's, DL uses RR's on their 772ERs, and has ordered GE's on their 772LRs, CO has GE90's on their 777 fleet.

Other major 777 operators - Singapore has RR's on their 772ERs and GE's on their 773ERs, as mentioned, Korean has PW's on their 772ERs, AF and KL have GE's on their 772ER and 773ERs, BA has a mix of GE's and RR's on their 777 fleet, Saudi Arabian has GE's on its fleet of 772ER's, I believe ANA's 777s are PW powered, and while I am not certain, I believe Malaysia's may be GE powered, however I'm not certain on that one.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
User avatar
OA412
Crew
Posts: 3779
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 10):
I believe ANA's 777s are PW powered, and while I am not certain, I believe Malaysia's may be GE powered, however I'm not certain on that one.

NH's 777-200's are PW powered but their -300ER's are GE powered. Also MH's 777's are actually powered by RR.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 10):
As was mentioned, no PW4098s are currently in service anywhere, and though they remain an option, they aren't really, due to their significant technical issues, which was the reason PW was forced to take them back in the first place.

I had thought there was an issue with the PW4098 (emissions?), but wasn't positive so I didn't want to note it in case I was incorrect.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8558
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:16 am

JL's 777-200s are PW4077 powered but their -200ERs are GE and their -300ERs are GE. Their -300s are PW4090.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:25 am

This is an interesting link of all 777s. I don't know how up to date it is.

http://web.archive.org/web/200302180...bird.ch/bharms/boeing/b777_t_0.htm
 
User avatar
AA777223
Posts: 984
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:12 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
P&W does offer a 99,000lb version - the PW4098 - but it is used only on the 777-300A model, I believe.



Quoting MarkC (Reply 9):
Pratt took all the 4098's back from Korean. There are now no operators of this engine.

This is correct. From what I understand KE was the only airline to order the 4098, but the engine was such a lemon, as in it had very poor dispatch reliability, and its fuel consumption was inordinately high, that all of the engines were removed from service to be replaced with 4090s. I would assume this was much to the chagrin of KE, as their 777-300s certainly lost performance capability with the loss of 10,000 lbs of thrust on each engine. As far as I know the engine has no plans of being ordered by any other airline, and will go down with no orders. UA, the largest operator of PW powered 777s has -76s on their A model planes, and detuned 90s on their ERs, making them incapable of performing many of the operations seen by other companies 777ERs, and even Uniteds own 744s
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
MarkC
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:10 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:16 am

I forgot, Asiana is also a PW operator.

As for the 4098, it is not oferred anymore. Now that there are no more in service, PW can discontinue their support for the engine. This means spare parts and manual updates. Someone told me that the loss of thrust was a wash as the engines used more fuel than a 4090, and would use any extra fuel on a long trip that would be able to be lifted by the bigger engines.

PW made 3 distinct versions of the 112" 4000.

1. 4074/4077 was the initial model, found mostly at United, JAL, and ANA. Only 777-200. The only difference in the thrust is the programming plug.

2. 4090 has an extra LPC and extra LPT stage. This is for the -200ER or the -300. A 4084 is merely a derated 4090. Only a few operators do this. Operators of 4077's and 4090's occaisionally derate their 4090's to 4077 level to use them in place of a true 4077. This is the only reason a United 4090 would be "detuned".

3. 4098 with another additional LPC stage, but the same LPT as the 4090. Only a few were ever made (maybe 12). Some are now in museums.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:20 pm

In the early days of the 777 programme PW were running away with it. They got the big UA launch order (34 firm + 34 options) and quickly followed with other major deals. One I still remember was ANA. ANA were about to choose the RR Trent when BA opted for GE. Alarmed, NH switched to PW. For the first half dozen years or more there were more PW-powered 777s flying than either GE or RR. Then RR overtook them and latterly GE have overtaken both. PW now has the smallest share of the 777 programme and that's now very unlikely to change.

PW 777 airlines?

Air China
ANA
Asiana
Egyptair
JAL (and JAS before the merger)
Korean
United
Vietnam

Several of the above also operate or have ordered GE-powered versions as well.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
PW 777 airlines?

Air China
ANA
Asiana
Egyptair
JAL (and JAS before the merger)
Korean
United
Vietnam

Oh, and - of course - such airlines as have picked up ex-UA planes: Air India, Varig (as was) and...?
 
scorpy
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 15):
UA, the largest operator of PW powered 777s has -76s on their A model planes, and detuned 90s on their ERs, making them incapable of performing many of the operations seen by other companies 777ERs, and even Uniteds own 744s

What is the real range of UA's 777's based on their configuration, engines and MTOW selection?
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
I had thought there was an issue with the PW4098 (emissions?), but wasn't positive so I didn't want to note it in case I was incorrect.

Wasn't the problem with the PW4098 solely related to the engine being a fuel guzzler, while the PW4090 is the one with the emmisions problem, which forces operators of the PW4090 to derate their engines to comply with emmision regulations?

I also heard somewhere that the PW4098 became a real embarrassment to Boeing because of its high fuel consumption. Is that true?
 
boeing764
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:24 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 4):
AI, whose 777s are ex-UA are all PW powered.

I was on the Boeing factory tour yesterday and in the final assembly position was line number 610 a 777-200 (looked like an LR because of the wing tips) for Air India and I think it had P&W engines.
BTW. Is Air India changing their color scheme? I ask that because although the aircraft wasn't painted the rudder was red and the engine nacelles were red.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Willson - AirTeamImages

From Dr. King's America to Nelson Mandela's Africa, the journey of equality moves on.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Oh, and - of course - such airlines as have picked up ex-UA planes: Air India, Varig (as was) and...?

Varig used 4 PW powered birds. 2 with PW4074 (PP-VRI/PP-VRJ, both 200A) and 2 with PW4090 (PP-VRE/PP-VRF, both 200ER). PP-VRI and VRJ has been just returned.

VRE/VRF already on ground without engines.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting Boeing764 (Reply 21):
line number 610 a 777-200 (looked like an LR because of the wing tips) for Air India and I think it had P&W engines.

No, #610 is a -200LR with GE. Air India have no PW-powered 777s on order. Indeed, hardly anyone does. Korean have anoter 5 to come and Asiana have another half dozen or so. Does ANA still have any PW -200s on order? Either way, there can't be many more than a dozen or so PW-powered 777s to be built.
 
Airmansv
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:17 pm

Guys.

Please understand the definition of Thrust.

All these figures you are looking at that are in brochures etc are Max Take-off static Thrust, which is meaningless when you start to use this parameter for comparisons. The thrust at mach number including at rotation (,22 etc) is really what counts. Just because RR or a GE engine NEEDS to HAVE a higher static thrust does not mean that they have higher power at all. On the contrary they have to have this higher static thrust in ordr to provide the REQUIRED spec thrust at Mach number, which can translate to higher operating temperatures in the turbine and LOWER reliability.

Henceplease understand these parameters before you start to use them for comparison purposes indescriminately.
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2946
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting Boeing764 (Reply 21):
BTW. Is Air India changing their color scheme? I ask that because although the aircraft wasn't painted the rudder was red and the engine nacelles were red.

That's interesting... does anyone know anything?
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 10):
As was mentioned, no PW4098s are currently in service anywhere, and though they remain an option, they aren't really, due to their significant technical issues, which was the reason PW was forced to take them back in the first place.

Why was the PW4000 for the 777 much worse than the PW4000 for the 767/747? IIRC those engines was the preferred choice for those planes as well as the leading engine on the A330. SAS has been a long time P&W costumer, but they changed to RR when they got their new A330-300. What has been the problem at P&W? Did they not update their engines in the same way as much as RR and GE did in that market?

Would it cost to much for PW to just fix the problem with the 4098 engines rather than just remove them from market?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
MarkC
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:10 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):
Why was the PW4000 for the 777 much worse than the PW4000 for the 767/747? IIRC those engines was the preferred choice for those planes as well as the leading engine on the A330. SAS has been a long time P&W costumer, but they changed to RR when they got their new A330-300. What has been the problem at P&W? Did they not update their engines in the same way as much as RR and GE did in that market?

I don't know why PW lost share so fast. I'll speculate that the 4000 is an older design. It entered service in '86/'87 or so. So it hit the 747/767 square on, and caught the A330. Shortly after the 777 was in service, the GE90 came out and was 10-15 years ahead in technology. The only reason to go PW was for commonality if you had a large 4000 fleet already. All the 4000 cores are the same physical size from the 4052 to the 4098. Its even smaller than a JT9. Maybe it was just too much.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):
Would it cost to much for PW to just fix the problem with the 4098 engines rather than just remove them from market?

For one operator with 9 engines....yes.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Airmansv (Reply 24):
Henceplease understand these parameters before you start to use them for comparison purposes indiscriminately.

Fair enough, but would you be so kind as to point us to the relevant information for all the engine families? I'm not using the Boeing/Airbus/P&W/RR/GE-provided numbers out of laziness. I'm using them because I am not Lightsaber or Dougloid and do not have anything like their depth of knowledge on powerplants, so I "go to the source", so to speak, and use what numbers they provide,
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:57 am

Air Austral's three B772ERs are PW-powered, too. And only four out of VN's ten B777s are PW-powered.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):
Why was the PW4000 for the 777 much worse than the PW4000 for the 767/747? IIRC those engines was the preferred choice for those planes as well as the leading engine on the A330.

Actually, GE outsold PW on both the 747-400 and 767 and RR have comfortably outsold PW on the A330. While we're at it, the CF6 outsold the PW4000 on the MD-11.
 
FL370
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 2:25 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:45 pm

IIRC i think almost all of UA;s planes are PW powered.



fl370
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting FL370 (Reply 31):
IIRC i think almost all of UA;s planes are PW powered.

Yes, where they have that option: 747s, 757s, 767s and 777s.
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Boeing764 (Reply 21):
I was on the Boeing factory tour yesterday and in the final assembly position was line number 610 a 777-200 (looked like an LR because of the wing tips) for Air India and I think it had P&W engines.

Its impossible to have 772LR with PW's.
Both the 773ER and 772LR come exclusively with GE.
That is probably one of the main reasons why the GE started to oversell the Trents.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: 777 Powered With PW Engines: Which Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 33):
That is probably one of the main reasons why the GE started to oversell the Trents.

I think it's the only reason!