OU812
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Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:13 am

2006 was a jovial year for Boeing. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said regarding Boeing's rival Airbus. 2006 for Boeing had a few small bumps in the road, but for the most part, Boeing continued upward reminiscent of a F-15 going straight up at full throttle. With the significant launch of the 747-8i, to name just one of their achievements for 2006.

Airbus started the year [2006] off in controversy with a very questionable 150 order from the Chinese. 2006 was also the year where it became clear that Airbus's shared co-CEO/political-Franco/Germany set-up with EADS/Airbus is not laudable and the company was heading into an indigent state. With German politicians looking to counter France's leverage within EADS/Airbus, it appears the turmoil with in EADS may continue.


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2262286,00.html

Aviation | 06.12.2006

For EADS and Airbus, 2006 Was a Year to Forget

The head of European aerospace giant EADS said 2006 had been a very bad year indeed. Especially difficult will be getting its airplane unit, Airbus, back on track in 2007.

"Getting Airbus to be competitive again will be like running a marathon," Enders told the press on Monday. On the long road, EADS will certainly be looking to its arch rival for some tips -- for instance, looking at exactly how Boeing's restructuring was done, and seeing how useful it was to sell factories.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...business_January9.xml§ion=business

Boeing stages triumphant comeback as Airbus lags in sales

BY A STAFF REPORTER

1 January 2007

DUBAI — As the US aircraft maker Boeing enters 2007 with near-record orders of over 1,000 aircraft, its transatlantic rival Airbus, which lags behind in number of orders for the first time in five years, is bracing for another year of challenges.


With a rush of last-minute commercial jet sales, Boeing has broken its remarkable 2005 record order tally with total sales of 1,014 net jet orders, compared to 1,002 net orders last year.


 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
Airbus started the year [2006] off in controversy with a very questionable 150 order from the Chinese.

Nothing questionable about it. The Chinese signed the order in December and Airbus listed it as such when they announced their final December and 2006 numbers in mid-January. And they announced it in mid-January because Airbus' order announcements are once a month where Boeing's are once a week.

Boeing aficionados get their knickers in a twist because Boeing's first weekly announcement showed them as being the winner. But then Airbus' only monthly announcement a week later bumped Boeing off. So some claim "conspiracy" and believe Airbus intentionally "back-loaded" orders signed in the first two weeks of January to the December 2006 numbers to beat Boeing.

If Boeing aficionados should be upset at anyone, it should be President George Bush whose verbal gaffe during a State Visit to the People's Republic of China compelled China to reduce their 737 order by 70 units and defer them to 2006, which is what allowed Airbus to win the 2005 order battle and gave Boeing a nice kick-off to winning the 2006 order battle.
 
mrcomet
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:53 am

Thats not how it works. Airbus has an inconsistent policy of counting orders. They count them sometimes when the order comes (the Chinese order) and sometimes when the paperwork is signed. It seems rather political. Boeing announces them only when the final paperwork is signed.

Both got the same order. Boeing announced it when each airline chose the planes and signed the paperwork which took most of the orders into 2006. Airbus counted all of them in 2005 so they could win the order race.

Which is right? I'd argue either is okay if you know exactly what is being announced. However, Airbus has consistently misdescribed orders in the past especially Leahy and Forgeard as appearing to be firm. Airlines announce intentions all the time that end up not getting acted upon. Until the paperwork is signed, you don't really know if they will follow through (and even then sometimes). If I was buying stock, I'd prefer the Boeing approach -- more conservative.

In the end, it hurt Airbus making their fall in sales more precipitous. I'd bet they'd love to have 150 more planes this year on their books.
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Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
They count them sometimes when the order comes (the Chinese order) and sometimes when the paperwork is signed.

They always count them only when the paperwork is signed. That includes the Chinese order, which was signed by the CAAC in December. Airbus has always counted CAAC orders as such, so they ARE being very consistent.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
However, Airbus has consistently misdescribed orders in the past especially Leahy and Forgeard as appearing to be firm.

Examples please? And I mean examples where Airbus accounted for orders in its spreadsheet which were not, in fact, firm.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
Airbus counted all of them in 2005 so they could win the order race.

Again: no. They've always counted Chinese orders the moment CAAC signed for them.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

Nothing questionable about it. The Chinese signed the order in December and Airbus listed it as such when they announced their final December and 2006 numbers in mid-January. And they announced it in mid-January because Airbus' order announcements are once a month where Boeing's are once a week.

Which of course is why the Chinese later complained about Airbus counting the entire order.

For that matter, it's still massively inconsistent. Airbus still has obviously canceled orders on their books to delay having to lower their order numbers, and usually flips LoI and actual orders to make them look good when they need it.

Sooner or later, that practice will burn them, but while they don't have to meet European reporting requirements (EADS does) or American, they can pull these tricks.
 
timboflier215
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:09 am

OMG, my time machine worked. I'm back at the start of 2006. Woohoo! Seriously people, get over it. It happened. Whether Airbus was right or wrong, and whether it helped or harmed them can be debated forever. Fact is, they claimed victory in the 2005 orders race and Boeing seem to have soundly beaten them in 2006. It does seem pointless to keep rehashing old news.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 5):
It does seem pointless to keep rehashing old news.

Very much so. Airbus knows what they did, and Boeing knows that they've "won" 2 years in a row now, and so does the market. I don't think Boeing really cares what Airbus PR department says or doesn't say...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
mrcomet
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):
Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
However, Airbus has consistently misdescribed orders in the past especially Leahy and Forgeard as appearing to be firm.

Examples please? And I mean examples where Airbus accounted for orders in its spreadsheet which were not, in fact, firm.

I am not saying they misrepresent them in their spreadsheets. I am saying that Forgeard and Leahy used to say all they time that the A350 had a certain number of orders when they meant LoI or MoU -- not the same thing. As a investor, it confuses you. This has been discussed to death on this list.

The CAAC paperwork is different from the airline paperwork. Boeing counts orders when each airline takes its order. Boeing, who clearly understands all the contingencies in the contract, decided this approach better helped investors understand when a plane had actually been purchased. Since we don't have access to the CAAC documents, we don't know how restrictive the terms are but given the size of the purchase, I imagine they are favorable to the CAAC. There are likely to be some outs.

Boeing is clearly more conservative than Airbus. Given the much larger numbers of cancellations over the years by Airbus, this clearly better helps us understand the future earnings of the companies. Sorry, Boeing wins this one.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:20 am

Airbus have had a good year for sales. The A320 had a fantastic year.  Smile The A330 and A340 did surprisingly well. Most remarkable of all, the WhaleJet even had positive net orders.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
Airbus have had a good year for sales.

2nd best ever, and if they were to count the 150 this year, it would have been the BEST year ever (assuming they firm up a bunch of orders in Dec which I think they will).

But Enders comments are obviously due to the looming problems and A380 trainwreck, not just the very strong sales.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 7):
The CAAC paperwork is different from the airline paperwork.

So? CAAC signed a contract with Airbus. That means Airbus are fully in their right to report the order. If Boeing chooses not to, that is their right. To each their own. What I find most irritating about this whole situation (besides the fact that some still feel the need to continue dragging it up after a year) is how people, including you, continue claiming Airbus did this 'in order to win the race with Boeing', thereby indicating they did something they would otherwise not have done, while, in fact they were just doing what they have always done, and were thus being consistent with their own practises. The fact you continue with those accusations simply spits in the face of truth.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 5):
It does seem pointless to keep rehashing old news.

This thread is supposed to be a retrospective--a look back at 2006.

However, there was a lot more than "the Chinese New Years" order: A380 delays, A350 delays, CEO sackings, resignations, insider trading charges, political intrigue, compensation payments, profit warnings, cancellations, potential job cuts...
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):
Which of course is why the Chinese later complained about Airbus counting the entire order.

Why did they complain? Did the French do something to annoy them so they wanted to make some waves?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):
For that matter, it's still massively inconsistent. Airbus still has obviously canceled orders on their books to delay having to lower their order numbers, and usually flips LoI and actual orders to make them look good when they need it.

I imagine when an airline cancels it's order, it is not an immediate termination with either party exchanging cheques and a wave. I expect a good deal of paperwork has to be handled in the background. Also, in EK's case, while they have stated they "will not take delivery of any A346HGW currently on order", I do not believe they and Airbus have come to formal terms on cancelling their outstanding commitment. So until all the "I"'s are dotted and the "T"'s crossed, those planes are still on order and therefore carried on the books. Same with the FX order for A388Fs and the ILFC transfer from the A388F to the A388.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):
Sooner or later, that practice will burn them, but while they don't have to meet European reporting requirements (EADS does) or American, they can pull these tricks.



Quoting MrComet (Reply 7):
I am not saying they misrepresent them in their spreadsheets. I am saying that Forgeard and Leahy used to say all they time that the A350 had a certain number of orders when they meant LoI or MoU -- not the same thing. As a investor, it confuses you. This has been discussed to death on this list.

Both of these comments assumes the world's investment banks and houses are incompetent and whose only due diligence when determining a company's valuation is looking at Boeing's Orders web page and Airbus' Order spreadsheet. They assume each plane is sold for list price and has a fixed production cost through the life of the delivery cycle, even if that cycle extends over years.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 7):
The CAAC paperwork is different from the airline paperwork. Boeing counts orders when each airline takes its order. Boeing, who clearly understands all the contingencies in the contract, decided this approach better helped investors understand when a plane had actually been purchased.

Yet CAAC is acting as the broker for the airlines. It is no different when Boeing records an order for GECAS or ILFC. Boeing doesn't wait until the leasing company has signed their own contract with an operator before they record the sale to the leasing company. Why Boeing waits in the case of CAAC is beyond me, but that's how they want to do it.

Quoting MrComet (Reply 7):
Since we don't have access to the CAAC documents, we don't know how restrictive the terms are but given the size of the purchase, I imagine they are favorable to the CAAC. There are likely to be some outs.

So? The PR still says Boeing sold 150 planes to China and the market will take that information at face value, as CAAC is a "solid" customer unlikely to cancel. And should CAAC exercise cancellation options later, then the market will address that then. I fail to see how that is different with Airbus recording all 150 sales upon signing the paperwork with CAAC. It's not like CAAC is more likely to cancel an Airbus contract then a Boeing one, so the market will value both orders identically, whether they are recorded in one day or over many...

Quoting MrComet (Reply 7):
Boeing is clearly more conservative than Airbus. Given the much larger numbers of cancellations over the years by Airbus, this clearly better helps us understand the future earnings of the companies. Sorry, Boeing wins this one.

No, Boeing is just different then Airbus. Boeing waiting for Primaris to actually sign their 787 order before recording didn't affect the company's valuation anymore then if Boeing had recorded it the moment Primaris said "yeah, we plan to take them". And Primaris formally cancelling that order after signing the paperwork did not hurt the valuation anymore then if Primaris had never signed the paperwork, period, after Boeing had recorded the order at the announcement of Primaris' intent to buy.

It would be nice if Airbus and Boeing recorded orders with the same standards, reporting frequency, and ease of look-up (Boeing is vastly better then Airbus in this area), but they don't. That does not mean, however, that one is deceitful or dishonest compared to the other.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:48 am

From the sound of the above posts you would think B&A are trying to impress the general public rather than those who purchase the aircraft. Aircraft performance, not hype, sells airplanes, right? I would rather have a T&A debate before we go through another who-is-better-B or A argument. Viva la stews.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
However, Airbus has consistently misdescribed orders in the past especially Leahy and Forgeard as appearing to be firm.

Examples please? And I mean examples where Airbus accounted for orders in its spreadsheet which were not, in fact, firm.

Examples?

Here's one! This was obviously Forgeard spinning things just a tad ! However, on Airbus's part, having Noel Forgeard gone should help the new Airbus with their denial issues!

http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?ArticleID=10164

Forgeard Says Airbus beats 200-order Target for A350 in 2005

Jan. 9, 2006 — Airbus has beaten its target for more than 200 A350 "orders and commitments" in 2005 by at least 10 per cent, EADS co-chief executive Noël Forgeard said today.

Forgeard did not specify how many would be officially classed as firm orders when the Toulouse manufacturer reveals its year-end figures on Jan. 17
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 14):
Examples?

Here's one!

Really? Those orders appeared on the spreadsheet? I never knew.  Yeah sure

Oh, and FWIW, the issue has been beaten to death over and over and over again back when this first appeared, that:

a) Forgeard was referring, as the article itself says, to orders AND commitments;
b) the report that Forgeard said they had 'beaten' the 200 forecast is simply false and stems from a mistranslation: he said they came to 'within 10%'. And guess what, they did.

So no, you didn't answer the question. Another try?
 
jdevora
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
Airbus started the year [2006] off in controversy with a very questionable 150 order from the Chinese.

Once again....
The order was announced the 5th December 2005: CASGC signs agreement for largest ever Chinese order with purchase of 150 A320 Family aircraft

There was even a thread here about it: China To Order 150 A320 Posted Sun Dec 4 2005 20:28:41 UTC+1
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:47 am

Scorpio,
The order was in the works when announced, since the on going deal between France and/or Airbus to have the Chinese build A320 was yet to be agreed on.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/12/05/afx2371339.html

China Airbus order unlikely to shift market share from Boeing - analyst
12.05.2005, 11:50 PM


The framework agreement to buy 150 aircraft, signed yesterday during Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao's four day trade visit to France, does not necessarily mean China will buy that amount of planes, with the final order likely to be for significantly less, Sadubin told XFN-Asia.

Airbus has confirmed that yesterday's agreement with China was preliminary, and that it does not yet have any actual orders for the aircraft.

The accord, a general terms agreement, is expected to evolve over time into firm contracts, with the final order likely to be closer to China's recent agreement to buy 70 aircraft from Boeing, Sadubin said.

'I don't expect that all 150 aircraft will be a firm order -- I think it will be much less than that -- it will probably be on a par with Boeing's firm commitment, with some options as well,' Sadubin said.
 
4Left
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:52 am

Who cares who books more jobs, that number is fluid anyway.
Planes aren't busses, put service back into the air!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 17):
Airbus has confirmed that yesterday's agreement with China was preliminary, and that it does not yet have any actual orders for the aircraft.

It was an MoU, and China could have modified it as it saw fit at a later date. It was still a "solid order" in that China was pretty much bound to buy 150 after pledging the same to Boeing, but as has been explained numerous times:

It's fine for Airbus to count it.

It's bullshit for them to then claim the year's sales title when they knew that Boeing counted orders DIFFERENTLY. Airbus knew this because Airbus announced 2 weeks later, so they could see what Boeing counted. Airbus decided to count all 150 orders anyway.

FINE. But where in Airbus's PR of January 17th did Airbus bother to explain this? Where do they say that if they counted orders like Boeing did, or if Boeing counted orders like Airbus did, in EITHER case, Airbus would have been #2? Nowhere, that's where, and that's why it's dishonest. And it is indicative of a much greater problem of honesty at Airbus that surfaced a few months later regarding the A380 delays and the extent to which they knew about them 18 months earlier.

Have a nice day.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
co7772wuh
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
Airbus have had a good year for sales. The A320 had a fantastic year. The A330 and A340 did surprisingly well. Most remarkable of all, the WhaleJet even had positive net orders.

Airbus's order numbers were impressive, but why did eads stock value drop so significantly while Boeing's went to new highs?
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 17):
The order was in the works when announced, since the on going deal between France and/or Airbus to have the Chinese build A320 was yet to be agreed on.

The order was announced on the fifth, as per that artcile, and signed on (I believe) the 31st.

For the rest, that article you quoted has some more interesting things: first; contrary to what is being said here, the orders WERE all firm, all 150 (and all have meanwhile long been placed with airlines). Second, this order was not subject to the A320 line in China (the contract was signed well before the decision for the line was taken, and most planes had already been placed by the time of the decision). The result of the decision to build the line was actually another Chinese order for 150, signed in 2006. In short, pretty much everything that Sabudin character said in what you quoted turned out to be wrong.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting CO7772WUH (Reply 20):
Airbus's order numbers were impressive, but why did eads stock value drop so significantly while Boeing's went to new highs?

Mainly due to the WhaleJet fiasco, but also due to the insider trading scandal and Airbus' difficulty in getting an A350 to market.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
It's bullshit for them to then claim the year's sales title when they knew that Boeing counted orders DIFFERENTLY.

It wouldn't have made a difference if Boeing had used the same counting practices as Airbus. The original Boeing deal was for only 70 737s, all of which, BTW, were included in the 2005 tally. The other 80 were only ordered in 2006. For Airbus, the entire 150 were ordered all at once, in 2005.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
It wouldn't have made a difference if Boeing had used the same counting practices as Airbus. The original Boeing deal was for only 70 737s, all of which, BTW, were included in the 2005 tally. The other 80 were only ordered in 2006. For Airbus, the entire 150 were ordered all at once, in 2005.

Com'on Scorpio,
Airbus counted/included an order that was still in the process of being completed. Unfortunately, many , including myself have a tough time believing many of Airbus's claims, especially their order totals, after it has been learned that Airbus was disingenuous on many issues, one being Airbus knowing about the A380 delays far longer than they originally stated.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 17):

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/....html



Quoting OU812 (Reply 17):
Airbus has confirmed that yesterday's agreement with China was preliminary, and that it does not yet have any actual orders for the aircraft.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 24):
Unfortunately, many , including myself have a tough time believing many of Airbus's claims, especially their order totals, after it has been learned that Airbus was disingenuous on many issues, one being Airbus knowing about the A380 delays far longer than they originally stated.

I'm hoping that the departure of Noel Forgeard will provide Airbus an opportunity to regain the credibility they had under Jean Pearson. I would love to see Airbus abandon grandiosity and regain greatness. They need to get the A350 right.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 24):
Airbus counted/included an order that was still in the process of being completed.

And you know that the deal with CAAC was not signed.... HOW exactly?

Quoting OU812 (Reply 24):
Airbus has confirmed that yesterday's agreement with China was preliminary, and that it does not yet have any actual orders for the aircraft

Yes? See the date on that article? Did you choose to completely ignore the fact that this was almost a month before the actual, binding contract was signed? Once more: that article you have now used twice to 'justify' your claim says absolutely nothing about this issue, as it predates the signing of the contract by almost a month.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
I'm hoping that the departure of Noel Forgeard will provide Airbus an opportunity to regain the credibility they had under Jean Pearson. I would love to see Airbus abandon grandiosity and regain greatness. They need to get the A350 right.

Zvezda,
I believe they will. Forgeard's narcissism went with him. Their candor on many issues is a positive step forward. However, Airbus being pump up more with gov./politcal glop may retard their healing process.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
Examples please? And I mean examples where Airbus accounted for orders in its spreadsheet which were not, in fact, firm.

How about all the A-350 orders, before it was re-introduced and redesigned as the A-350XWB (Mk. VI). For example, the US order for 20 A-350s came soon after the exited bankruptcy, in the spring of 2005. The A-350XWB of the summer of 2006 is a very different airplane than it was in the spring of 2005.  Angry

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 5):
Boeing seem to have soundly beaten them in 2006.

Airbus still has time to recount their 2006 order sheet. After all, this is only 1/1/2007.  Wow!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
if they were to count the 150 this year, it would have been the BEST year ever

Since they announced the order in 2006 (but say it was a 2005 order), perhaps they can count these 150 A-320s (that may never be built) again.
 Yeah sure
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
How about all the A-350 orders, before it was re-introduced and redesigned as the A-350XWB (Mk. VI). For example, the US order for 20 A-350s came soon after the exited bankruptcy, in the spring of 2005. The A-350XWB of the summer of 2006 is a very different airplane than it was in the spring of 2005.

Firm contracts for those were signed. Since the plane changed, the contracts will need to be renegotiated, no doubt, but as long as that hasn't been finished, the current contract still stands. The deal was never cancelled, so why should it be removed? If US chooses to cancel, the orders will disappear from the books.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
How about all the A-350 orders, before it was re-introduced and redesigned as the A-350XWB (Mk. VI). For example, the US order for 20 A-350s came soon after the exited bankruptcy, in the spring of 2005. The A-350XWB of the summer of 2006 is a very different airplane than it was in the spring of 2005.



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 29):
Firm contracts for those were signed. Since the plane changed, the contracts will need to be renegotiated, no doubt, but as long as that hasn't been finished, the current contract still stands. The deal was never cancelled, so why should it be removed? If US chooses to cancel, the orders will disappear from the books.

Good point KC135TopBoom,
Interesting, Airbus's totals for 2005 included roughly 100 A350's, which was a plane that did not exist!

Very creative Airbus was!
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 30):
Interesting, Airbus's totals for 2005 included roughly 100 A350's, which was a plane that did not exist!

Very creative Airbus was!

I'm so looking forward to hearing you explain why exactly Airbus, in January 2006, should not have counted those A350 orders.

I'm really looking forward to that one.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 29):
Firm contracts for those were signed. Since the plane changed, the contracts will need to be renegotiated, no doubt, but as long as that hasn't been finished, the current contract still stands.

If I were US (or another carrier that ordered an earlier iteration of the A350), I would insist on the new plane at the old price and compensation for the late delivery. I haven't read the contracts, but I'm sure there are liquidated damages specified if Airbus chooses to not build the aircraft. Airbus has the choice of taking bad press and paying the liquidated damages for non-performance that would then be used to pay deposits to Boeing or to eat the difference in production cost (which may be zero or negative as the current A350 might cost less to produce than the aluminium one would have). I think Airbus, if pushed, would deliver the new A350 at the prices contracted for the old one.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 29):
If US chooses to cancel, the orders will disappear from the books.

Let us hope that in the future, Airbus are more prompt about booking cancellations than they have been in the past.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 31):
I'm so looking forward to hearing you explain why exactly Airbus, in January 2006, should not have counted those A350 orders.

Of course, it was correct for Airbus to have counted those.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
Let us hope that in the future, Airbus are more prompt about booking cancellations than they have been in the past.

One of the many a.net 'myths'. Airbus have always booked cancellations the moment they happened. Every order which was cancelled by an airline was booked as such the moment the cancellation was official, i.e. paperwork had been sorted out. Now no doubt you'll start quoting 'instances' to me, but I can already tell you now that those orders had not been officially cancelled until they disappeared off the books.
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):

I'm hoping that the departure of Noel Forgeard will provide Airbus an opportunity to regain the credibility they had under Jean Pearson. I would love to see Airbus abandon grandiosity and regain greatness. They need to get the A350 right.

It will take a change in business practice, more open reporting, and meeting performance targets and scedules. It will also take being more humble than I can imagine Airbus ever being.

They need to get a lot of things right.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 31):
I'm so looking forward to hearing you explain why exactly Airbus, in January 2006, should not have counted those A350 orders.

I'm really looking forward to that one.

Is the A350 situation unprecedented? In that I mean, has it ever happened to another air-framer where an air-framer designs a paper plane, receives an ample amount of orders, then re-design, then re-design, then the design goes into hiatus, then the A350's existance comes into question, then a complete re-design takes place and the entry into service is pushed back significantly?
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 35):
Is the A350 situation unprecedented? In that I mean, has it ever happened to another air-framer where an air-framer designs a paper plane, receives an ample amount of orders, then re-design, then re-design, then the design goes into hiatus, then the A350's existance comes into question, then a complete re-design takes place and the entry into service is pushed back significantly?

I hope that's not your attempt at an explanation.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 36):
I hope that's not your attempt at an explanation.

It's just step one!  wink 

Well, is it?

Unprecedented?

 eyebrow 
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 37):
Well, is it?

Unprecedented?

As far as I can think of, yes. In which bizarre way that explains why Airbus shouldn't have counted orders back in early 2006 for what was at that time the model on offer is beyond me, though...

I'm sure I'll read your fantanstic explanation tomorrow morning though...
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:35 am

The thread title is so totally wrong. How could Airbus possibly want to forget the sizeable order book it bagged this year? An "annus horribilus" for sure, but it's customers have, on the whole, shown faith and continued to buy planes from the maker.

Boeing jovial? Me thinks not, the pressure is on to deliver more than ever for the US manufacturer in 2007. They seem to have their house in order and a robust line-up but nothing stays the same forever!
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 39):
The thread title is so totally wrong. How could Airbus possibly want to forget the sizeable order book it bagged this year? An "annus horribilus" for sure, but it's customers have, on the whole, shown faith and continued to buy planes from the maker.

I agree. The order book is the one great aspect of a year that hasn't gone well for Airbus. Every model sold better than expected. Orders might be nearly double current production.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:08 am

Zvezda & EbbUK
I have to respectfully disagree. But 1st, I will have to admit that I over looked Airbus's orders for 2006. However, regarding the title, I feel it's spot on for the simple fact that Boeing got it's act together with a complete aircraft line up & Airbus's line up became abundantly obvious that theirs was quite vulnerable & weak since their money share dropped from 45 to 36-37-ish percent in 2006.

Yes,
Airbus broke records in 2006. But with all that went wrong for Airbus in 2006, it is equivalent in saying that [hypothetically speaking] Airbus nailed a hot babe, but only to find out weeks, months later that they got herpes in the process.

Bummer!

 melting 
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
The original Boeing deal was for only 70 737s, all of which, BTW, were included in the 2005 tally. The other 80 were only ordered in 2006. For Airbus, the entire 150 were ordered all at once, in 2005.

Yes, that is close to it, but not quite. Boeing only booked 50 of the 70 in their 2005 total, the balance of 100 have been booked in 2006.

The first 50 of those Next-Generation 737 airplanes were booked in December 2005 with an additional 20 booked in January 2006.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3/060914a_nr.html

Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
"Getting Airbus to be competitive again will be like running a marathon," Enders told the press on Monday.

I'll accentuate the positive and say that despite some of the setbacks that Airbus encountered, they will learn from their experience, move onwards and upwards, though it'll take a little time, just as Boeing learned in 1997/1998.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
co7772wuh
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 39):
The thread title is so totally wrong.

I don't agree. Trust me airbus would love to forget 2006! Yah, they sold a bunch of a320s, but the media had a field day with airbus in 2006. 2 a380 delay announcements in 4 months and the say can be said about their 2 ex-co-ceo's.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 41):
their money share dropped from 45 to 36-37-ish percent in 2006.

It's too early to call it with that much precision. Airbus' market share in 2006 was between 30 and 40 percent. I can't pin it down better than that yet. We won't know for two more weeks.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 44):
It's too early to call it with that much precision. Airbus' market share in 2006 was between 30 and 40 percent. I can't pin it down better than that yet. We won't know for two more weeks.

I was simply going on what was recently reported on this matter. The article below was done in late Nov.. Is there any indication that Airbus's share went up or down with what materialized in the remaining part of 2006 with orders from both manufactures?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2.html?nav=rss_business/industries

Airbus Share of New Orders Shrinks

By LAURENCE FROST
The Associated Press
Wednesday, November 22, 2006; 11:13 AM

PARIS -- Airbus unvelied a bullish long-term forecast for global aircraft sales on Wednesday but said its share of new orders by value has shrunk to about 36 percent this year from 45 percent last year, as rival Boeing Co. grabbed more sales for mid-size and larger jets.



"To sum up, this has been one of the best of years but it's also been one of the worst of years," Leahy said.

Airbus has taken firm orders for 619 planes so far this year, or 43 percent of the total 1,441 orders placed with Airbus and Boeing, which had booked 822 as of Nov. 15.

In terms of catalog value, however, Leahy acknowledged that Airbus' share of new business has shrunk further to "35 to 37 percent" this year, as Boeing sold about five times as many large and mid-sized airliners, which carry heavier price tags.
 
manni
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 45):
Is there any indication that Airbus's share went up or down with what materialized in the remaining part of 2006 with orders from both manufactures?

Looking at what you quoted from the article...

Quoting OU812 (Reply 45):
Boeing sold about five times as many large and mid-sized airliners, which carry heavier price tags.

At that time Airbus had sold about 55 widebodys. Airbus more then doubled that number in december (adding those orders that have been made public). The latest update on Boeing's website has 285 widebodys. Boeing would need a total of atleast 550 widebodys in order to keep the above quote a valid one.

We can conclude with certainty that this will not happen.

Atleast 110 orders are still to be added (breakdown between wide- and narrow bodies isn't released yet, however there's atleast another 20 from KE).


As a side note...

Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
With the significant launch of the 747-8i, to name just one of their achievements for 2006.

Happened in 2005.

Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
in controversy with a very questionable 150 order from the Chinese

The only controversy surrounding this orders is here on airliners.net. I preffer to call it sour grapes rather then controversy...  Wink

Quoting OU812 (Reply 41):
I will have to admit that I over looked Airbus's orders for 2006.

You declared 2006 a year to forget for Airbus without looking at their orderbook?  rotfl 
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EI321
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 30):
Good point KC135TopBoom,
Interesting, Airbus's totals for 2005 included roughly 100 A350's, which was a plane that did not exist!

If airbus had signed firm orders for a plane that was on offer and had been launched, than why should they not be on the order list? The 787, 748 or A350XWB do not 'exist' in the way you put it, does this mean that none of these should be on the manufacturers order books?  Yeah sure
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 46):
Quoting OU812 (Thread starter):
With the significant launch of the 747-8i, to name just one of their achievements for 2006.

Happened in 2005.

They didn't get their 1st significant order until Lufthansa ordered the 747-8i in Nov. of 2006.

Quoting Manni (Reply 46):
You declared 2006 a year to forget for Airbus without looking at their orderbook?

Unfortunately, it was a year to forget for Airbus. I was giving credit where credit was due. I wish not to list all that went wrong with Airbus in 2006, but their decline continues downward, which accelerated in 2006.
 
OU812
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RE: Airbus: 2006 A Year To Forget-Boeing's Jovial

Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 47):
If airbus had signed firm orders for a plane that was on offer and had been launched, than why should they not be on the order list? The 787, 748 or A350XWB do not 'exist' in the way you put it

Irish,
You are taking what I said out of context. The difference is that airlines that bought Boeing a/c are getting that particular a/c. Airlines that bought the A350 a year ago or longer, were at 1st getting a revamped A330, then the A350 went through a few stages of metamorphosis, then extinction. So the A350 that was ordered over a year ago, never existed, will not be built and all or most contracts must be re-noegotiated, but not Boeing's!

[Edited 2007-01-02 23:48:13]

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