bobnwa
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AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:19 am

How many stations do AA,CO,DL,US,B6, and WN outsource(non mainline)? Is Northwest way out of the norm in doing this?
 
N766UA
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:47 am

Be more specific. Do you mean ramp? Gates? Catering?
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bobnwa
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 1):
Be more specific. Do you mean ramp? Gates? Catering?

Ramp, gates and ticket counters. Most catering is outsourced for all airlines in the U.S.
 
burnsie28
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:48 am

NW has the fewest outsourced of the legacy carriers, however none of WN is outsourced. AA at a lot of stations has their people at the ticket/gates but not on the ground.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
Ramp, gates and ticket counters.

DL has AC handle virtually all of their gate and ramp operations at Canadian stations they serve: YVR, YYC, YEG etc...
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WMUPilot
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:02 am

The only thing that B6 outsources is our ramp operations at a select few airports and cleaning of our aircraft. Everything else is done in house.
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Cory6188
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
NW has the fewest outsourced of the legacy carriers

I don't really think you're correct on this one. IIRC, NW recently outsourced all of the ground operations all at of their airports in the US except for their 40 busiest stations.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:04 am

I think DL and B6 at AUS are outsourced to Integrated or Trajen.  confused 
 
Bicoastal
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:54 am

United has many stations that are served only by United Express contract airlines.....no mainline flights. At those stations, the ramp and counter are contracted, too. United mainline ramp and counter handle some Express flights at some stations. I believe in some smaller stations where there are more Express flights than mainline flights, contractors do the ramp and counter. Colorado Springs comes to mind. United recently tried to contract a few stations, but wasn't happy with the bids/quality of the bids so the work stayed in house.
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burnsie28
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
DL has AC handle virtually all of their gate and ramp operations at Canadian stations they serve: YVR, YYC, YEG etc...

NW stations are NW mainline employees except the airlink stations and YVR.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 6):
I don't really think you're correct on this one. IIRC, NW recently outsourced all of the ground operations all at of their airports in the US except for their 40 busiest stations.

69 cities, with a lot of them going to Pinnacle and Mesaba, many stations have the old NW mainline employees.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:39 am

Most CO stations are CO people (i.e. gate agents/ticket agents/ops). One I can think of that isn't is ONT. I believe DL does our gate handling. Also, with the exception of hubs, most of our ground handling (ramp, baggage, etc.) is done by other carriers or other local companies.

With regards to catering, CO uses its own company (Chelsea Catering) at its hubs (EWR, CLE and IAH) and a few non hub cities (HNL, LAX and DEN). For our other cities we use companies like Gate Gourmet and LSG Sky Chefs.

I believe CO is the only US airline to own its own catering company, which in turn, keeps meal costs lower and why we serve food (up to individual interpretation) onboard, free of charge.
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chris133
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Thread starter):
How many stations do AA,CO,DL,US,B6, and WN outsource(non mainline)?

WN doesn't have any non-mainline operations. The only thing that WN outsources is some of its heaviest AC maintenance and its day to day aircraft cleaning (please note that heavy cleaning is done internally).
 
lincoln
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
Ramp, gates and ticket counters. Most catering is outsourced for all airlines in the U.S.

Except, as EWRCabincrew mentioned, CO who has Chelsea under their wing, so to speak. Anyone know the history of this arrangement, just out of curiosity?

Although, AFAIK, WN doesn't cater food, it was my understanding that all of their provisioning (beverages, nuts, etc) was handled in house.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 10):
Most CO stations are CO people (i.e. gate agents/ticket agents/ops). One I can think of that isn't is ONT. I believe DL does our gate handling

ONT is the only one that comes to mind for me, as well. You are correct that Delta does all of the handling as far as I've been able to tell [Check in, gate, and ground] For what it's worth, I beleive they also did the handling for NW @ ONT before they pulled out.

About half the time I fly out of LAX the person who tags my bag isn't wearing a CO uniform, so I'm not sure what the deal with that is...but there is a noticeable difference in the proficency/efficiancy between those in CO uniform and those in Company X uniform.

NW does (did?) the handling for CO at FWA, but that doesn't really count since, AFAIK, FWA only sees CommutAir Beech 1900Ds d/b/a Continental Connection.

Lincoln
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travatl
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:04 am

What about CO at ABQ? I know for many years, all ticket/ramp/gate ops were handled by HP. Did CO eventual put it's own people there, or did another airline take over?
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
AA at a lot of stations has their people at the ticket/gates but not on the ground

American Eagle outsources check-in to Continental Express at HPN.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 13):
What about CO at ABQ? I know for many years, all ticket/ramp/gate ops were handled by HP. Did CO eventual put it's own people there, or did another airline take over?

Our marketing agreement with HP ended a while back and CO brought back its employees to those stations. ABQ included. Delta Field Services does do some handling, although to what extent I am not sure.
You can't cure stupid
 
funflyer
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:39 am

NW Outsource's at MHT.



Now how do they save money doing this?
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burnsie28
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:53 am

CO outsources at COS to US Airways.
 
AA787823
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:55 am

AA has outsourced most small stations for the ramp operations, some stations are handled by Eagle in customer service. All overnight cleaning for the most part is outsourced. AA is also considering contracting out its HR department.
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lincoln
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 18):
AA is also considering contracting out its HR department.

...because God knows, HR needs to be more out-of-touch with reality.

(Ok, I don't know how it is at AA, but at my last gig [university], the HR people had some strange ideas...Current gig has no HR department)

Lincoln
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RedTailDTW
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:15 pm

US Airways/America West does services for CO at TUS.
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Cubsrule
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 9):
69 cities, with a lot of them going to Pinnacle and Mesaba, many stations have the old NW mainline employees.

And good heavens, some of those stations are bad, bad, bad. I've had some 50 minute DC-9 turns. Just unacceptable, and it never happened before they outsourced.
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azjubilee
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:00 pm

Because before they were outsourced they had a large amount of folks working at the station. Airlink stations usually have only about 5 employees to work the gate, counter and ramp all at the same time. It's hard to turn a DC9 with 2 people throwing bags etc...


AZJ
 
widget1580
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:22 pm

Just recently ZW replaced NW ops at SBN, they do UA as well. OH handles DL Connection flights as well as CO and Allegiant.


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azncsa4qf744er
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 8):
I believe in some smaller stations where there are more Express flights than mainline flights, contractors do the ramp and counter. Colorado Springs comes to mind. United recently tried to contract a few stations

COS is a SkyWest Airlines, Inc. station. (Everything is inhouse except for De-icing)

United contract other express carriers (mostly SkyWest Airlines, Inc, or Air Wisconsin) at smaller station. PSP seasonally gets mainline service (there is more but can’t think of any). Any station that UA have actual mainline service they will have their own staffing. With the exception of Canada, I believe Delta Global does the contract and Air Canada. Internationally, the only station with it’s own staffing (Check-in and Gate) are LHR, NRT, GRU, and MEX. All other station are contracted out to third party. (Europe is ground handles by LH)

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 18):
AA has outsourced most small stations for the ramp operations,

American out of ONT are outsourced too.

Qantas is ground handles by Hallmark-Aviation Services at LAX and SFO. In JFK it’s BA and I believe BA does it too in YVR.

Virgin Atlantic (incl EWR), EVA AIR, Korean Air (SFO), Philippines Airlines (SFO), Singapore Airlines, All Nippon Airways, Air New Zealand, THAI, and Cathay Pacific (JFK-BA) are ground handled by Hallmark-Aviation Services out of LAX, SFO. They also do ground handling at LAX and other airports for domestic carriers as well. AirTran (LAX and LAS), Sprit Airlines (LAX), Sun Country (LAX and SAN), Aloha (SNA, RNO, SMF, OAK, and SAN), Mexicana (OAK, SMF, SFO, and SJC).
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 22):
Because before they were outsourced they had a large amount of folks working at the station.

I don't know. The station where I've had the most problems (CLT) is fairly large for an outsourced station, about 40 weekly mainline flights and 15 weekly 9E.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
azjubilee
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:04 am

My point Cubs, is that the contractor stations are going to staff FAR less than the old NWA stations did. When we arrived at mainline stations, there were nearly 4-5 rampers alone to meet the flight. Then add agents in the terminal and folks at the counter. Airlink stations were staffed at bare minimum and we usually had 2 folks to park us, unload bags and reload. With minimal staffing, things are going to suffer. But that's NWAs fault, not the stations. The stations are working under the CHEAP model NWA wants, which delivers thinner staffed stations.


AZJ
 
Bicoastal
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:31 am

Expect to see more contracting in the future. Contracts are a lot cheaper for companies than in house employees. Companies can shed costs for workmans compensation, health insurance, pensions/401ks, and many many other overhead costs...human resources, etc. Contracts are a fixed, known cost requiring a lot less manpower to manage. As airlines struggle to keep fares low, they need to find ways to save. Often....usually....it comes at a price of good service, but it's something the great masses of travelling public are willing to put up with for a cheaper fare.
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azjubilee
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:40 am

With proper training an outsourced station will be just as good, if not better than the stations they're replacing. Though I will not miss some of the awful NWA stations, the good ones will be sadly missed.


AZJ
 
bobnwa
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 28):
I will not miss some of the awful NWA stations, the good ones will be sadly missed.

I would be interested in your list of both the good and the bad. I'll bet if a survey was taken, your list would not be far off.
 
azjubilee
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:34 am

Bob - my comment was from a Mesaba employee perspective. Many NWA stations had complete disdain for Mesaba employees for the longest time. Then, when Pinnacle had their incredible growth, the hate was transferred to them. They felt their jobs were in jeopardy by having airlink flights replacing flights that were traditionally mainline.

Some stations had awful rampers, but great agents and vice versa. Then amongst each group that was awful, usually there was one that was okay. The worst agents IMO were in GRR, CID, SDF, DSM and others that escape me right now. Awful rampers were in STL (the absolute worst), CID, FNT, SDF, ATL and others.

The best agents and rampers were in CVG, SUX, SLC and many many others. We would hate going to certain stations because we knew we and the pax would be trated like garbage. But then we loved going to others because we were all friends.

AZJ
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 26):
My point Cubs, is that the contractor stations are going to staff FAR less than the old NWA stations did.

I would generally agree with you, but the stations I've had problems (again, mainly talking about CLT) are places where NW staffing was pretty thin and the contracted staffing is really no different.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Lite
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:43 am

Are handling agents in the USA really awful? In Europe it is the norm now at non-hub airports, and has been for quite some time, for airlines to only have a station manager at the airports they fly to, but to have all ground handling (pax services, ramp services, dispatch and ops) to be contracted out to a professional handling company such as Servisair, Swissport, Menzies Aviation or aviance. Considering that the legacy airlines have been in financial difficulties to say the least, and that low-cost airlines are always looking for ways to cut costs - I'm surprised that outsourcing handling at all non-hubs would be an obvious cheap solution.
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Bicoastal
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting Lite (Reply 32):
Are handling agents in the USA really awful?

Low pay, high turnover, inadequate or no retirement/health benefits and especially no travel benefits contribute to a less than enthusiastic workforce among ground handling contractors in the USA. And the background check and citizenship/permanent resident requirement to work at US airports eliminates the largest pool of hardworking, low-pay labor.....illegal aliens.

That being said, you will see more contracting in the USA as new labor contracts are negotiated with unions....when the existing agreements expire in the next few years. It will be an acrimonious process, but airlines will have to suffer through it to keep costs down.
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eraugrad02
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:54 pm

US contacrts its ramp here in ILM by a company called Jetstream. This started 2 years ago...Before then i have never heard of this company. Has anyone???
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
CALMSP
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:15 pm

at the current moment we outsoure:

ATO functions at: ONT/TUS/OGG/COS/SRQ

RAMP: ANC/SEA/PDX/SMF/OAK/SJC/ONT/SAN/ABQ/COS/MCO/TPA/CLT/DTW/BHM/PNS/BDL/OGG/SLC/RNO/SRQ/PHX/DEN/TUS/HNL

If i can think of more, i will post
 
Cory6188
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 35):
at the current moment we outsoure:

ATO functions at: ONT/TUS/OGG/COS/SRQ

And, believe it or not, HNL as well. CO's agents there are all outsourced except for a group of management employees.
 
CALMSP
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:04 pm

actually they are CO MIC employees.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 35):

RAMP: ANC/SEA/PDX/SMF/OAK/SJC/ONT/SAN/ABQ/COS/MCO/TPA/CLT/DTW/BHM/PNS/BDL/OGG/SLC/RNO/SRQ/PHX/DEN/TUS/HNL

BNA
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Cory6188
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 37):
actually they are CO MIC employees.

Hmmm...I didn't realize that. Thanks for the clarification.
 
Lite
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RE: AA,CO,DL,US,UA,B6,WN Outsource

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 33):
Low pay, high turnover, inadequate or no retirement/health benefits and especially no travel benefits contribute to a less than enthusiastic workforce among ground handling contractors in the USA. And the background check and citizenship/permanent resident requirement to work at US airports eliminates the largest pool of hardworking, low-pay labor.....illegal aliens.

This is exactly the same case in Europe, yet it has not stopped the formation of huge international, pan-European handling agents from establishing and taking over the ground handling responsibilities for airlines of all sizes. Maybe there is money to be made from creating a decent handling agent in the US?
LCC Lover Lite