speedmarque
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747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:34 pm

Hi

Was remembering the never-biult 747-600 model I saw at Farnborough a few years back and was wondering if the new-size 747-8 is as long?

Cheers
 
heliflyerPDC
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:12 pm

do you have more details about the 747-600. (that way its easier to compare the 2 models)  Wink

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speedmarque
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:15 pm

No I dont I'm afraid. Just remember it looking like a really long -400. Sorry.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Speedmarque (Thread starter):
Was remembering the never-built 747-600 model I saw at Farnborough a few years back and was wondering if the new-size 747-8 is as long?


I do not believe Boeing ever formally defined the dimensions of the 747-600X or 747-500X. The closest I can find is the 747-X Stretch of 2000, which was planned to be 242.5 ft in length with a wingspan of 240ft. It was to hold 525 passengers.

The 747-8I is 250.75 ft with a 224.5ft wingspan.

[Edited 2007-01-02 14:09:38]
 
harrisair
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting HeliflyerPDC (Reply 1):
do you have more details about the 747-600. (that way its easier to compare the 2 models)

B747-600 Preliminary length 278' 11" (85.01m) wingspan 255' (77.72m)

source
Burns and McDonnell - Aircraft Characteristics - 7th Edition

harris
 
Triple Seven
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:39 pm

The 747-600X was to measure 85m in length and feature new wing based on the 777. MH signed an order for 10 -600X and 5 -500X in 1996 but Boeing preferred a blue chip carrier (no one showed interest) and thus does not constitute a launch order.

Main features of interest for 500X/600X:
- New wing of 777 design - less swept
- 6 wheel truck for outer main landing gear
- 4 wheel nose gear
- Taller vertical fin - like SP
- 777-like flight deck
- RR or GP powerplant
- Brand new horizontal tail-plane

The -500X/-600X was far more capable (riskier/costlier too) than the current 748i.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:51 pm

Thanks, HarrisAir. That's a nifty sourcebook and now I can finally get the stats for the 747-500X and 747-600X to go with the stats I have for the 747-X and 747-X Stretch.  thumbsup 
 
B2707SST
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:55 am

Here is some data I've collected over the years. These may not be exact or final for the -500X/600X and 747X/Stretch programs as their specs varied over time. The "747-7I" is the original shorter -8I model:


 747-400747-400ER747-7I747-8I747-500X747-600X747X747X Stretch
Pax (3-class)416416450467462548430522
Range7,260 nm7,670 nm8,300 nm8,000 nm8,700 nm7,750 nm8,975 nm7,600 nm
MTOW875,000 lbs.910,000 lbs.970,000 lbs.970,000 lbs.1,166,000 lbs.1,186,000 lbs.1,043,000 lbs.1,043,000 lbs.
Length231 ft. 10 in.231 ft. 10 in.244 ft. 1 in.250 ft. 8 in.250 ft.279 ft.213 ft. 10 in.263 ft.
Span213 ft.213 ft.224 ft. 7 in.224 ft. 7 in.251 ft.251 ft.229 ft.229 ft


--B2707SST

[Edited 2007-01-02 17:56:53]
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AA777223
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:57 am

Does anyone have any pics of this proposed 746? I can't imagine what this would look like?
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:00 am

The 747X and 747XF
 
ikramerica
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:06 am

So it was actually the 745 that is similar in length to the 748i. Notice how the 745 was nearly 200klbs heavier at MTOW to go 700nm further, and had a longer wingspan that would require A380 style airport redesigns.

No wonder it was hard to sell...
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
So it was actually the 745 that is similar in length to the 748i. Notice how the 745 was nearly 200klbs heavier at MTOW to go 700nm further, and had a longer wingspan that would require A380 style airport redesigns.

At Boeing's initial press release at Farnborough 1996, the range of the 747-600X was given as 8,900nm and the 747-500X had a range in excess of 10,000nm, so I imagine as those designs firmed-up, the ranges came down for both models.
 
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
so I imagine as those designs firmed-up, the ranges came down for both models.

Yep, reality is a bitch...  Wink
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747727
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:38 am

Such a shame they didn't do the 747x I would love to have had a much bigger 380 beating 747.
 
kaitak744
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:01 am

This is from Guy Norris's and Mark Wagner's book, Modern Boeing Jetliners

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167767609HVZJIO.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167767071wMgamC.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167766845G3lNxl.jpg

Shows the 747-400X, 747-400Y, 747-500X, 747-600X, and 747-700X side by side with the 747-400.

[Edited 2007-01-02 21:03:59]
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 9):
The 747X and 747XF

Those look like the wings and tailplane from the 747... 37.5 degree sweep, as opposed to the roughly 32 degrees of the 777 wing.

I think when all is said and done, 748i will be the most efficient solution for 747.. if something else would have worked better, they would have done it.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
I think when all is said and done, 748i will be the most efficient solution for 747.. if something else would have worked better, they would have done it.

Yes... only thing that will match/exceed that is the 747-9i down the road.  Wink
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B2707SST
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
Those look like the wings and tailplane from the 747... 37.5 degree sweep, as opposed to the roughly 32 degrees of the 777 wing.

The 747-500X/600X would have had a brand-new wing derived from the 777, which by itself was going to cost billions to develop and build. The 747X/Stretch program was more conservative with a reprofiled wing built on the existing structural frame, similar to what the 747-8 will have.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
I think when all is said and done, 748i will be the most efficient solution for 747.. if something else would have worked better, they would have done it.

True, but the big difference now is the availability of 787 engines. If Boeing had had those powerplants in hand ten years ago, the 747-500X/600X would be ruling the skies today.

--B2707SST
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BrettFromCLT
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 14):
This is from Guy Norris's and Mark Wagner's book, Modern Boeing Jetliners

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167767609HVZJIO.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167767071wMgamC.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...6610&filename=1167766845G3lNxl.jpg

Shows the 747-400X, 747-400Y, 747-500X, 747-600X, and 747-700X side by side with the 747-400.

Re: those pictures - nice! Looks like the 747-700X would have been a stretch and a widen? Cool.

Brett
 
beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting BrettFromCLT (Reply 18):
Looks like the 747-700X would have been a stretch and a widen? Cool.

The 747-700X was in fact a 100% completey new aircraft. Taking aspects of the 747 (over all styling) and the basic wing from the 777 (modied to be MUCH larger) and using basically 4 x GE-90 size motors...

It only looks like a 747... it would have been a new model.
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting BrettFromCLT (Reply 18):
Looks like the 747-700X would have been a stretch and a widen? Cool.

Yes. It was designed to hold 650 people and would have had a fuselage wider then the current 747 family. It would have retained the existing wing, systems, engines, struts and landing gear of the 747 family and had a design range equal to the 747-400.
 
CJAContinental
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:05 am

Do you think it would be better for Boeing if they offered an 80 metre version of the 747-8 as well, that would surely hurt the A380 program.
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flydreamliner
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 17):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
I think when all is said and done, 748i will be the most efficient solution for 747.. if something else would have worked better, they would have done it.

True, but the big difference now is the availability of 787 engines. If Boeing had had those powerplants in hand ten years ago, the 747-500X/600X would be ruling the skies today.

I don't know, Airbus seems to have built a ground up aircraft in this size class, using what were the most advanced turbofans available, and which are the closest thing to GEnx levels of efficiency currently, and it is hardly ruling the skies, delays or not.

I simply don't think there is the largest market for aircraft of such size. I think airlines who are not tightly slot controlled in their hubs will follow the model of the american airlines in offering greater frequencies and more city connection pairs, as opposed to just running larger and larger aircraft between their hub and other major centers.
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ikramerica
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
Do you think it would be better for Boeing if they offered an 80 metre version of the 747-8 as well, that would surely hurt the A380 program.

No, because it wouldn't fit at current gates due to length.

Part of the selling point of the 748i is it is no longer than the longest planes for sale now (77W and 346) and only 6ft wider per side than the 744, so it can operate from most existing airports with only very moderate tweaking of each pair of 744 gates (no rebuilding), assuming those gates are long enough to hold the 346 and 77W (some aren't).

The Boeing planning document used to have a diagram (can't find it now) that explains a basic way of fitting the 748i in existing gates with 787s, but I'll take it one step further below to make operations less restricted (in my design, any plane can go anywhere except 2 748i next to each other in the same gate "pair"...)

Taking one 744 gate and drawing a 748i box 12ft wider (to the right) and taxi line 6ft off center from the "212ft" wingspan aircraft (744+77W/L+345/6) line to right for the "225ft" 748i and a line 6ft off center to the left for the "200ft" aircraft (772ER+777A+330+342/3+788/9), and doing the same thing in a mirror image on the gate to the right.

Airports would then routinely park 185ft to 200ft aircraft on the 200ft line, 212ft aircraft (+185ft and smaller birds) on the 212ft line, and the 748i on the 225ft line. You'd draw the areas in 3 different color/patterns to prevent mistakes, but it is one of the main reasons that the 748 was limited to 225ft during this design process (as opposed to the 745/6/X designs with wider wingspans). It's also why the 77W/77L are 212ft birds, to fit in existing 744 boxes.

The A380 can't be fit this way in general because it's wingspan is so much greater, you can't shift it enough at most airports and still have the jetways reach. You must shift gates to either side and limit the aircraft to 175 ft, or spread the gates out more and decrease spacing at the terminal, or put them on the corners where there is more room.

And there will be some gates at some airports where the jetways will need to be modified to accomodate the 748i, but it would be as simple as relocating the "withdrawn" safety box for the jetway in most cases. If there is a gate that would involve major construction, the airport could designate it 212ft only, and skip it in the sequencing.
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AA777223
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:50 am

That 700X has one blunt ass nose! Those are some incredible models.
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deputydawghere
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
do not believe Boeing ever formally defined the dimensions of the 747-600X or 747-500X. The closest I can find is the 747-X Stretch of 2000, which was planned to be 242.5 ft in length with a wingspan of 240ft. It was to hold 525 passengers.

The 747-8I is 250.75 ft with a 224.5ft wingspan.

Hey bud, you and zvezda are always good information sources. Thanks
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Thrust
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:27 pm

To be honest I'm shocked Boeing never considered stretching the 747 before the A380 was even announced. They only had 27 years to think about it....surely they should have realized eventually traffic would grow to a point that they had to stretch it some point. I would have really liked to see the 747-600X enter service.....however as long as the A380 maintains an advantage in cabin space I doubt Boeing will ever consider a 747 to be a competitor with the A380. When it comes to cabin space, the A380 is the clear winner.
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting Thrust (Reply 26):
To be honest I'm shocked Boeing never considered stretching the 747 before the A380 was even announced.

The 747-500X and 747-600X preceded the bulk of the A3XX program, which Airbus was just starting serious work on. However, the "Asian Economic Flu" hurt traffic in the region, which is where Boeing expected the bulk of orders to come from. It became clear that airlines were skittish at spending upwards of $250 million per frame and Boeing was wary of spending upwards of $12 billion on a program facing such skittishness, especially since the 747-400 program was doing quite well at the time.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting Thrust (Reply 26):
To be honest I'm shocked Boeing never considered stretching the 747 before the A380 was even announced.

Part of the problem was wingspan. The proposals always had an A380 type span, and that was problematic (still is). Even the 748i has a stretched wingspan, but it's a very calculated one.

744-772=13ft of wingspan
13ft+744=748i wingspan
787 is 2 ft narrower than 772

thus, in terms of wingspan: 744+744=777+748>787+748
this is very important for gate spacing as I explained above as it requires no airport redesign nor even more lounge space.

Combined with not moving the engine locations so they remain in line with the original 747 (and fit on all existing 747 capable runways), this 6ft on each side extension is small enough not to limit access to very many airports around the world.

But without the more modern engines that are so efficient, the 747 stretch would have been 200k lbs heavier, and to lift that much more 747, the wingspan would have been 20ft greater and a new wing would have been needed.

It's truly the efficiency of the GEnx engines that make the current 747 stretch possible with modified 744 wings. Those were not available before 2008...
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beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
No, because it wouldn't fit at current gates due to length.

Part of the selling point of the 748i is it is no longer than the longest planes for sale now (77W and 346) and only 6ft wider per side than the 744, so it can operate from most existing airports with only very moderate tweaking of each pair of 744 gates (no rebuilding), assuming those gates are long enough to hold the 346 and 77W (some aren't).

Not completly true...
The current and ordered 748i design is over 8ft longer than a 773 and about 5ft longer than a A346. So your logic is slightly flawed...
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eraugrad02
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:05 pm

Im sure noone knows but will the MTOW of the 747-8i warrant it having a set of tripple boggie main gear?
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beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 30):
Im sure noone knows but will the MTOW of the 747-8i warrant it having a set of tripple boggie main gear?

Many of us know. And no it won't. It will just need to be strengthened but no more wheels need to be added.
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tsnamm
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:15 pm

The 747-700X proposal is fantastic...perhaps Boeing may reconsider the project in light of the obvious market desire of such large aircraft(ie the A380)...especially considering the infrastructure upgrades most major Intl airports are investing to allow A380 ops...the size upgrade of the 747-700X would no longer be problematical, from an airport operators standpoint anyway.
 
zvezda
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Thrust (Reply 26):
as long as the A380 maintains an advantage in cabin space I doubt Boeing will ever consider a 747 to be a competitor with the A380. When it comes to cabin space, the A380 is the clear winner.

Airlines are far more concerned about operating economics per passenger than they are about the amount of cabin space.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
The 747-700X proposal is fantastic...perhaps Boeing may reconsider the project in light of the obvious market desire of such large aircraft(ie the A380)...especially considering the infrastructure upgrades most major Intl airports are investing to allow A380 ops...the size upgrade of the 747-700X would no longer be problematical, from an airport operators standpoint anyway.

There are rumblings of a possible 747-9. The 747-8 could be stretched 7 more frames and still fit in the 80x80 box. It would still be much smaller than the WhaleJet at 455 sq meters of cabin floor area vs 552 sq meters. I doubt it will be built, but one can't be sure.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
The 747-700X proposal is fantastic...perhaps Boeing may reconsider the project in light of the obvious market desire of such large aircraft(ie the A380)...

So far, the market hasn't been very obvious in it's desire with only 156 A380 and 36 747 (744 and 748I) sales after seven year's worth of active marketing by Airbus and Boeing. Also, when it comes to direct head-to-head competitions, the market has clearly favored the Airbus product vs. Boeing's 747-based VLAs. Therefore, I expect a 747-700 would fail to score many - if any - orders if offered in direct competition to the A380.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
...especially considering the infrastructure upgrades most major Intl airports are investing to allow A380 ops...the size upgrade of the 747-700X would no longer be problematical, from an airport operators standpoint anyway.

The trick is, A380-dedicated gates with bi-level jetways wouldn't be efficient for the 747-700 as the 74G would only board from the main deck.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Also, when it comes to direct head-to-head competitions, the market has clearly favored the Airbus product vs. Boeing's 747-based VLAs.

Clearly being 160+ sales over 7 years versus 80 sales over 1 year? I'm not so sure that's "clear."
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Stitch
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
Clearly being 160+ sales over 7 years versus 80 sales over 1 year? I'm not so sure that's "clear."

"Clear" in that in every competition between a 500+ seat 747 proposal and the A3XX or A380, the A380 has won each of those RFPs. The closest Boeing came was after 9/11 and the Tech *BOOM* when LH began to worry that trans-Atlantic traffic had plummeted to the point they were worried about filling their A388s.

Now that Boeing is focusing on a smaller, more efficient 747 designed as much as a complement as a competitor to the A380, sales are starting to pick up.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 26):
To be honest I'm shocked Boeing never considered stretching the 747 before the A380 was even announced. They only had 27 years to think about it....surely they should have realized eventually traffic would grow to a point that they had to stretch it some point. I would have really liked to see the 747-600X enter service.....however as long as the A380 maintains an advantage in cabin space I doubt Boeing will ever consider a 747 to be a competitor with the A380. When it comes to cabin space, the A380 is the clear winner.

They considered it on a number of different occasions, McDonnell Douglas designed MD-12, which is very similar in concept to A380, no airlines ever were interested up until more recently, with A380.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):

Combined with not moving the engine locations so they remain in line with the original 747 (and fit on all existing 747 capable runways), this 6ft on each side extension is small enough not to limit access to very many airports around the world.

But without the more modern engines that are so efficient, the 747 stretch would have been 200k lbs heavier, and to lift that much more 747, the wingspan would have been 20ft greater and a new wing would have been needed.

It's truly the efficiency of the GEnx engines that make the current 747 stretch possible with modified 744 wings. Those were not available before 2008...

The GEnx engines are a large part of the efficiency gain, however, bear in mind that the 747 wings are very efficient, in and of themselves, their very high degree of sweep as well as constant updating - and now the raked wingtips allow this fairly old airfoil to remain very modern and competitive. The other advantage the 747 wing has over ones like 777s are that with its 37.5 degree sweep, it can fit a physically larger wing in terms of its area into a shorter span than if the wing were swept at roughly 32 degrees like 777's wing or 33 degrees like A380's.

The use of composites and the shorter wing allow for the weight savings over previous stretches of 747 which were concocted, though never acted upon.

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 30):
Im sure noone knows but will the MTOW of the 747-8i warrant it having a set of tripple boggie main gear?

MTOW on 747-8 is listed at 970,000lbs, roughly 60,000lbs more than 747-400ER... I don't think the extra 60,000lbs will require another set of gear, perhaps just being upgraded for more strength.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
The 747-700X proposal is fantastic...perhaps Boeing may reconsider the project in light of the obvious market desire of such large aircraft(ie the A380)...especially considering the infrastructure upgrades most major Intl airports are investing to allow A380 ops...the size upgrade of the 747-700X would no longer be problematical, from an airport operators standpoint anyway.

There are rumblings of a possible 747-9. The 747-8 could be stretched 7 more frames and still fit in the 80x80 box. It would still be much smaller than the WhaleJet at 455 sq meters of cabin floor area vs 552 sq meters. I doubt it will be built, but one can't be sure.

Odds are about the same as Airbus stretching to an A380-900, though I suspect a -900 may require a new wing.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Also, when it comes to direct head-to-head competitions, the market has clearly favored the Airbus product vs. Boeing's 747-based VLAs.

Clearly being 160+ sales over 7 years versus 80 sales over 1 year? I'm not so sure that's "clear."

Boeing's 747-8 has had a great start, especially since it is not even yet to design freeze, though the freighter has been more successful than the pax version, after design freeze, i anticipate it will be a solid seller for BA, also if you count the 744's Boeing has sold since the launch of A380, the 744's alone I believe have outsold A380... so I would agree, you cannot claim that one is 'clearly favored' in this market. Neither directly competes with each other either.
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beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):
Odds are about the same as Airbus stretching to an A380-900, though I suspect a -900 may require a new wing.

It does require a new wing... it would be using the wing from the A380F which honestly looks like a dud.
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zvezda
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):
Odds are about the same as Airbus stretching to an A380-900, though I suspect a -900 may require a new wing.

Neither a 747-9 nor an A380-900 would require a new wing, but both would require strengthening of the wing.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 29):
Not completly true...
The current and ordered 748i design is over 8ft longer than a 773 and about 5ft longer than a A346. So your logic is slightly flawed...

But the 748i design as proposed by Boeing was NOT longer than these aircraft. The F model was, but the F model did not have to fit at gates.

It is one reason Boeing was so reluctant to make them the same length. But I can only assume that the serious customers assured Boeing that being slightly longer is not a sticking point compared to the added capacity.

I'm still not so sure. I think that extra length may hurt the 748i a bit, as it can't fit at some airports without sticking out into the taxiway.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):
The GEnx engines are a large part of the efficiency gain, however, bear in mind that the 747 wings are very efficient, in and of themselves, their very high degree of sweep as well as constant updating - and now the raked wingtips allow this fairly old airfoil to remain very modern and competitive.

True enough, but that wing could not miraculously lift 250k more pounds than the 744ER. The only way to get a greater range and higher payload out of the current wing was to add some extensions, but more important, add an engine that is 15-20% more efficient, so it burns 15-20% less fuel and thus doesn't require 250k more pounds of MTOW, only 60k or so.
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beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
Neither a 747-9 nor an A380-900 would require a new wing, but both would require strengthening of the wing.

Um... last time i checked the A380F was using a different wing than the A380 and the A389 would be using the F wing. Made out of different material, stronger ect.
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zvezda
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 41):
last time i checked the A380F was using a different wing than the A380 and the A389 would be using the F wing. Made out of different material, stronger ect.

Aerodynamically, I understand it's the same wing, no? Of course it has to be stronger.
 
khobar
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
Do you think it would be better for Boeing if they offered an 80 metre version of the 747-8 as well, that would surely hurt the A380 program.

Everything depends on ROI - so far there doesn't appear to be a huge market for the A380, and given the headstart of the A380, I doubt any such Boeing offering would see the light of day.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 32):
The 747-700X proposal is fantastic...perhaps Boeing may reconsider the project in light of the obvious market desire of such large aircraft(ie the A380)...especially considering the infrastructure upgrades most major Intl airports are investing to allow A380 ops...the size upgrade of the 747-700X would no longer be problematical, from an airport operators standpoint anyway.

I hope not except to displace the A380 as the ugliest airliner flying (beauty's in the eye of the beholder yada yada yada).  Wink

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
There are rumblings of a possible 747-9. The 747-8 could be stretched 7 more frames and still fit in the 80x80 box. It would still be much smaller than the WhaleJet at 455 sq meters of cabin floor area vs 552 sq meters. I doubt it will be built, but one can't be sure.

Is that 552 sq. metres of useable cabin floor area versus 455 sq. metres of useable cabin floor area?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
Neither a 747-9 nor an A380-900 would require a new wing, but both would require strengthening of the wing.

I thought the A380-800 used a dimensionally identical wing to the -900, the difference being that the -900/-800F wing were stronger, and that the differences were being incorporated into production -800 wings from frame 35 or so onewards?
 
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):

Odds are about the same as Airbus stretching to an A380-900, though I suspect a -900 may require a new wing.

I think this is unlikely as the A388 wing was designed to be oversized, and over engineered, so that a stretch could be made with out major redesign.
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zvezda
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 43):
Is that 552 sq. metres of useable cabin floor area versus 455 sq. metres of useable cabin floor area?

That's total cabin floor area. I'll let others argue about what is useable and what is not.
 
beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 42):
Aerodynamically, I understand it's the same wing, no? Of course it has to be stronger.

Oh yes... that is correct. The aerodynamics are the same... i guess its the same "wing" different version.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:23 am

The A380 wing was sized to handle the 650 metric ton MTOW of the -900. The -800 version is a weaker/lighter version of the design, with a strengthened version to be built for the A380F and hence applied to the -900.

That was the plan, anyway. The awkward result is an A380-800 with a large and heavy wing, intended for a stretch that may never be built.
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beech19
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 47):
That was the plan, anyway. The awkward result is an A380-800 with a large and heavy wing, intended for a stretch that may never be built.

Oh the cruel irony... "One hit Wonder WhaleJet".  duck 
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zvezda
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RE: 747-8 And 747-600

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 47):
The awkward result is an A380-800 with a large and heavy wing, intended for a stretch that may never be built.

It's really a shame. If Airbus had engineered the WhaleJet for its original size, it would be much lighter in weight and the operating economics would be much better. That would have resulted in more sales and might have forclosed the viability of the 747-8.