khenleydia
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787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:55 am

Originally Boeing release the 787 with multiple color engine nacelles since that is what many airlines enjoy with their liveries. Then, a number of months back, they said that they were recommending that the airlines get single colors on their planes. They even went as far to say that the color should be more of a grey color to match the front of the engine nacelle. Now, it appears that has changed again.

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.cfm?id=14697&clr=release

The picture of this 787 shows white engine nacelle. Has Boeing changed their stance? Or, have airlines complained about their 'grey color' scheme thoughts?

I did a search, but didn't find anything helpful.

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gigneil
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:57 am

I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

N
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:24 am

I think it has to be a solid color, but I don't think the color actually matters. While grey would look good on this scheme with the grey belly, white or purple are just as valid.

I never understood why they said it should be grey instead of just saying it should be a solid color.
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L-188
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:28 am

Whites have been traditionally used in composites because it doesn't get as hot in the sun.

Extreme heat is detrimental to the strength of composites.
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474218
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

What about these airlines:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © H. Meier



View Large View Medium
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Photo © Florian Kondziela



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eter



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maurice Teerds


I found these by looking at three pages of pictures picked at random.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:43 am

I believe Boeing's comment was that going with a single color would save fuel, both due to less weight and better laminar flow (or something) over the nacelle.

I don't believe it was a requirement for airlines, just a suggestion.
 
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LTU932
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
What about these airlines:

Simple: in the case of 4R (Hamburg International), LH, CA and KL, the grey on the engine matches the grey on the belly (though for CA, it's more of a grey-ish white than grey). Note that in the case of KL's current colourscheme, the engine colour still colourmatches the belly, albeit in white.

[Edited 2007-01-03 03:44:54]
 
lostturttle
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:00 pm

I like the "cheat" line on the 787 paint scheme that that Jet Airways plans to use. Looks very classic on a very modern aircraft.

Quoting KhenleyDIA (Thread starter):

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.c...lease
 
Ruscoe
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:19 pm

I think the reference to grey nacelles by Boeing is just to create a baseline on which to be able to quote performance figures to customers.

You can have any color you want but it will burn more fuel than our baseline grey. (weight & aerodynamic considerations)

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FriendlySkies
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:44 pm

I have no idea about the color, but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released. Looks awesome!
 
stirling
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting Lostturttle (Reply 7):
I like the "cheat" line on the 787 paint scheme that that Jet Airways plans to use. Looks very classic on a very modern aircraft.

I think the reason it looks good is because it wraps all way round the nose of the aircraft, instead of most schemes with cheatlines that end right at the cockpit windows.
Beauty is a very subtle thing.
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released

There even looks like there's an F/A standing behind the pilots!!
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beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:07 pm

The grey is the lightest and dries to be the thinnest (weight saving)pigment for paint. That is why boeing included it in its livery. If airlines choice to go against this they know they will take a hit on efficiency. Do a search on boeings press releases to find it. Its their... if i had time i would pull it up. This was all done in a method. Boeing knows what they are doing...

I have personally not heard of any new changes.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I think it has to be a solid color, but I don't think the color actually matters. I never understood why they said it should be grey instead of just saying it should be a solid color.

I am about 95% certain it must be gray to obtain the drag reduction Boeing touted.

IIRC, the paint was specifically formulated and applied in such a way that the laminar flow around the nacelle was improved. The tone of this paint just so happens to be gray, and for the time being is only available in gray.

Quoting KhenleyDIA (Thread starter):
Has Boeing changed their stance? Or, have airlines complained about their 'grey color' scheme thoughts?

Boeing was never going to force airlines to do anything in regards to paint. The customers own the aircraft and can do whatever they want.

Airlines may have requested that Boeing develop more color tones that offer the drag reduction than just gray (sensible, IMO) or individual airlines may have decided they are willing to sacrifice the drag reduction for a uniform product appearance.

Finally, the promotional materials that have been drafted by artist. Their accuracy is far from guaranteed, so do not read too deeply into them.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
I have no idea about the color, but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released. Looks awesome!

I have a 787 rendering that is about 900 kb in a full 5950 x 3980 pixle resolution. Check my photo album in my user profile in just a moment.

IT is the most detailed rendering I've ever seen!!  Wink

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

There will always be someone. It's a rather insignificant trade-off in product branding, and the cumulative fleet savings over the life of the aircraft are not so insignificant.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:40 pm

And here she is:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/536883978/1167802662lAOFZj.jpg
 
beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
And here she is:

Good goD! Its huge! Thanks! That is one amazing image. Time to make a poster!  Smile
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siromega
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:55 pm

Hello new desktop background! Thanks DFWRevolution!
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 12):
This was all done in a method.

Perhaps to offset the drag penalty incurred by the nacelle's chevrons? Serious question-- I see that you're working on the 787.
 
beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 17):
Perhaps to offset the drag penalty incurred by the nacelle's chevrons? Serious question-- I see that you're working on the 787.

Well i am not in the engineering but i would say that its a good and probably very logical consideration. They would cancel eachother out as far as penalty to advantage. 1-2% drop for chevrons (but a HUGE sound wave decrease) and a 1-2% increase for paint liv.

I'll be building the plane...  Smile
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 15):
Good goD! Its huge! Thanks! That is one amazing image. Time to make a poster!  

My browser stalled for many seconds, I thought it had crashed!
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domokun
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:27 pm

Maybe I have just never noticed on other planes but the rain gutters above the doors look like they are curved. I have only noticed straight ones in the past...
 
kalakaua
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:42 pm

The wings, as well, will also be painted white.
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ptharris
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:14 pm

Aside from the engines, is there any benefit from so much wing flex?
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vegas005
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:34 am

I like Boeing but this plane looks more like a 767 every time I see it ... boring!!
 
Poitin
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I believe Boeing's comment was that going with a single color would save fuel, both due to less weight and better laminar flow (or something) over the nacelle.

I don't believe it was a requirement for airlines, just a suggestion.

The issue is the paint lines which are left after you mask the base coat and spray a second or third color. When you take off the masking tape the new paint sticks a couple thousands above the previous color and so causes a slight turbulence which disrupts the laminar flow.

Years ago a guy I know built a Rutan VariEasy. He did a beautiful paint job with lines running down the wings and canard. When it came time for first flight, the damn thing would not rotate. The problem turned out to be the paint edges destroyed the canard's laminar flow to the point it wouldn't lift. He had to sand off the paint job and after that, it flew as it should.

So even a slight imperfection on the surface, if running along the wing, or in this case the engine nacelles can dramatically increase drag, if in the wrong place. I suspect Boeing is just doing CYA on this, but the effect is real.
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khenleydia
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
Years ago a guy I know built a Rutan VariEasy. He did a beautiful paint job with lines running down the wings and canard. When it came time for first flight, the damn thing would not rotate. The problem turned out to be the paint edges destroyed the canard's laminar flow to the point it wouldn't lift. He had to sand off the paint job and after that, it flew as it should.

I never knew that such a little thing could effect a plane that much!

Fortunately the airlines don't worry about it too much, otherwise everyone would have Euro-white planes with just a little bit of text to show which airline it was.  eek 

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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Domokun (Reply 20):
Maybe I have just never noticed on other planes but the rain gutters above the doors look like they are curved. I have only noticed straight ones in the past...

I noticed that too. And no, I've never seen a curved one either. But I bet they exist.
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beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 22):
Aside from the engines, is there any benefit from so much wing flex?

Much more efficient. That is the key to this plane... fly long and quick and use as little gas as possible.  Wink
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iwok
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 27):
Much more efficient. That is the key to this plane... fly long and quick and use as little gas as possible.

Interesting... How does wing flex increase efficiency? Just curious.

-iwok
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:17 am

I mean really, how much fuel can you save by going with grey? It seems a bit silly to me.
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beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 29):
I mean really, how much fuel can you save by going with grey? It seems a bit silly to me.

The grey is the thinnest/lightest when dry but the purpose it to cause a smooth laminar flow instead of having the airlines livery lines on the engine nacelle.
Boeing claims up to 30,000 gallons of fuel a year per aircraft.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2006/q3/060710d_nr.html
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 30):
but the purpose it to cause a smooth laminar flow instead of having the airlines livery lines on the engine nacelle.

Right, but white or red, when formulated right, is going to be quite smooth, relative to the decal/logo/wave airlines might normally put on an engine.
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beech19
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
Right, but white or red, when formulated right, is going to be quite smooth, relative to the decal/logo/wave airlines might normally put on an engine.

Agreed. I think the key it to have a smooth surface instead of the decals/logos ect more than just a specific color. BUT Boeing had found that it was the lightest/thinnest so that just adds to the fuel savings i'm sure, even small ones. They are thinking outside the box to eek out efficiency on this plane.
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Poitin
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RE: 787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?

Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting KhenleyDIA (Reply 25):
I never knew that such a little thing could effect a plane that much!

It takes real talent to screw up the airflow that much, but he managed to do it. You have to put that line exactly in the right place to get that sort of effect, but I can believe that Boeing is right about the no Logos. It isn't the color, but the paint lines, particularly if the are vertical and upset the airflow all the way around the engine.

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 30):
The grey is the thinnest/lightest when dry but the purpose it to cause a smooth laminar flow instead of having the airlines livery lines on the engine nacelle.
Boeing claims up to 30,000 gallons of fuel a year per aircraft.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/new....html

That works out at 10 gallons (75 pounds) per hour of flight, if you assume 3000 hours a year. Doesn't sound like much but it adds up.

At $2 per gallon that is $60,000 a year PER PLANE.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?