Bradleycheuk
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What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:46 am

With all the different variants of the 777ER and LR, where does the 787 stand? Is it a plane designed to replace the 767 and then some more and will it fly international flights?

Thanks
Brad
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:53 am

The 787 in its several versions could replace from 757-300 - 777-200 (non-LR). The 787-8 and -9 have the range to do most international routes, and the 787-3 is optimized for heavy load transcon routes. with the 737NG, 787, 777-200LR and 777-300ER, plus the 747-8I it's a pretty darned complete family.
 
Bradleycheuk
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:59 am

So how will airbus compete with Boeings almost superior fleet? Airbus's only long hauler would be the A345 and A346, which have four gigantic engines. With today's rising fuel prices, doesn't Airbus see the threat of their A340 family compared to boeing's more fuel efficient two engine aircraft that have the same range?

Thanks
Brad
 
GQfluffy
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting BrettFromCLT (Reply 1):

Boeing covers the spectrum fairly well, except that the 739ER cannot match the climbing/power capabilities of the 752...and...of course...Boeing doesn't really have a candidate for the VLA...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
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Stitch
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Thread starter):
With all the different variants of the 777ER and LR, where does the 787 stand? Is it a plane designed to replace the 767 and then some more and will it fly international flights?

It is designed to:

  • Serve as a high-density, short-haul plane.
  • Provide a larger and longer-ranged alternative to the A330-200, 767-300ER and 767-400ER.
  • Provide a slightly smaller to slightly larger and longer-ranged alternative to the 777-200ER.
  • Provide a longer-ranged alternative to the A330-300 and A340-300.


Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 2):
So how will airbus compete with Boeings almost superior fleet? Airbus's only long hauler would be the A345 and A346, which have four gigantic engines. With today's rising fuel prices, doesn't Airbus see the threat of their A340 family compared to Boeing's more fuel efficient two engine aircraft that have the same range?

Airbus does indeed see the threat already imposed by the 777 and is responding with the A350XWB series, designed to:

  • Provide a larger and longer-ranged alternative to the A330-300 and A340-300.
  • Provide a slightly smaller and longer-ranged alternative to the 777-300ER, A340-500 and A340-600.
  • Provide a similarly-szed and longer-ranged alternative to the 777-200ER.
  • Provide a similarly-szed and more efficient alternative to the 777-200LR.
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 2):
So how will airbus compete with Boeings almost superior fleet? Airbus's only long hauler would be the A345 and A346, which have four gigantic engines. With today's rising fuel prices, doesn't Airbus see the threat of their A340 family compared to boeing's more fuel efficient two engine aircraft that have the same range?

That's basically why the 340 isn't selling too well. It's 4 engines make it inefficient compared to a twin like a 777 or 787, and why Airbus is making the A350XWB. Many believe that Airbus is leaving a big hole between the 321 and 350, and that a 330 replacement will be needed to compete with the 787.
 
Bradleycheuk
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:16 am

Thanks for all your insights, but what does it mean by ER and LR of the 777 and 767?
 
airbazar
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting BrettFromCLT (Reply 5):
That's basically why the 340 isn't selling too well. It's 4 engines make it inefficient compared to a twin like a 777 or 787, and why Airbus is making the A350XWB. Many believe that Airbus is leaving a big hole between the 321 and 350, and that a 330 replacement will be needed to compete with the 787.

The A330 has been filling that gap pretty well even after the launch of the 787 so it's understandable that Airbus may not be in a big hurry to come up with an A330 replacement just yet. Between the A380 and A350 debacles, they have their hands full right now. Once they sort out that mess I think you will see them give priority to an A320NG type of aircraft family that may even extend to a true 757 replacement.

I think a 150-200 seat twin that could viably serve the N.Atlantic routes could be very succesful especially so when the US and EU come to an agreement on open skies.
 
zvezda
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 2):
Airbus's only long hauler would be the A345 and A346, which have four gigantic engines. With today's rising fuel prices, doesn't Airbus see the threat of their A340 family compared to boeing's more fuel efficient two engine aircraft that have the same range?

That's why are Airbus are developing the A350.

As for the 787, watch the 787 family grow to replace the 777 over the next ten years.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 6):
Thanks for all your insights, but what does it mean by ER and LR of the 777 and 767?

The 230-seat 787-3/8 is slightly larger than the 767-300/ER and will directly replace the 767 line. There will be no replacement for the smaller 767-200 variants.

The 270-seat 787-9 is positioned between the 250-seat A332 and 300-seat A343/772ER. For some airlines this aircraft could replace the 772ER, but that job is more likely to be done by the 310-seat 787-10 when launched.

There is no 787 model that can yet match the payload and range of the 772LR. It is possible that one could be developed in the future, but not for some time. However, the economics of the smaller 787 are so compelling that airlines may choose the 787-9 or 787-8 for ULH when they would have otherwise chosen the 772LR.
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
Thanks for all your insights, but what does it mean by ER and LR of the 777 and 767?

ER = Extended Range
LR = Longer Range (longer than ER)

These are models with heavier takeoff weights and additional fuel tanks, allowing them to fly farther than the initial versions. A.net has good descriptions of the models and different versions, for example check the 777 article located here: http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=106
 
zvezda
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
The 230-seat 787-3/8 is slightly larger than the 767-300/ER and will directly replace the 767 line.

Cabin floor area:
767-300: 184.5 sq meters
767-400: 214.1 sq meters
787-3/8: 223.8 sq meters

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
There is no 787 model that can yet match the payload and range of the 772LR.

Correct. The 787-9 comes close though. It nearly matches the payload/range performance of the A340-500. Upon delivery, it may just match it.
 
Bradleycheuk
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:12 am

Well I was intrigued by the 777's cabin crew rest area where they have 3 beds, where exactly is the rest area located on the plane?

Thanks
Brad


You guys are really helpful
 
beech19
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 3):
Boeing covers the spectrum fairly well, except that the 739ER cannot match the climbing/power capabilities of the 752...and...of course...Boeing doesn't really have a candidate for the VLA...

I agree with the climbing power of the 752. WOW...
How is it that Boeing doesn't have a candidate for a VLA?! What is the 747-8 then? Last time i checked that was a pretty damned good VLA...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
The 230-seat 787-3/8 is slightly larger than the 767-300/ER and will directly replace the 767 line. There will be no replacement for the smaller 767-200 variants

The 787-8 is 230seat (roughly) the 787-3 will be more like 300 seats in transcon. And they are both WAY bigger than 767's...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
Correct. The 787-9 comes close though. It nearly matches the payload/range performance of the A340-500. Upon delivery, it may just match it.

Being that a 787-9 already will have 8600 - 8800nm range, a 787-9ER will blow it away. It will probably easily equal the 777LR in range and most likely break the 10000nm barrier.
Sydney to London anyone?
KPAE via KBVY
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 12):
Well I was intrigued by the 777's cabin crew rest area where they have 3 beds, where exactly is the rest area located on the plane?

It's above the main deck in the "crown" area of the plane - above the main deck ceiling and below the top of the fuselage. Search the photo area for "overhead crew rest" and you'll find some pictures of it. It's one advantage the 777 has over the competition - moving the crew rest overhead frees up seats for paying passengers.
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 2):



Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 2):
So how will airbus compete with Boeings almost superior fleet? Airbus's only long hauler would be the A345 and A346, which have four gigantic engines. With today's rising fuel prices, doesn't Airbus see the threat of their A340 family compared to boeing's more fuel efficient two engine aircraft that have the same range?

Thanks
Brad

Well, hold your horses, the B787 isn´t flying yet, so we don´t know how fuelefficent it´ll be, we can assume.
And don´t forget the A380 it´ll also be a long-hauler, along the A340.
I think the last stretch of B747 shows there´s an interesting market for
4-engined larger and longhaul aircrafts.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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SEPilot
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:31 am

My impression is that the 787 is basically supposed to replace the 767, with some overlap with the 777. Isn't Y3 supposed to eventually replace the 777 and 747? But beyond that, I believe that the 787 will be the most significant new plane since the 707, in that it will (if it meets expectations, which I believe it will) make all existing airliners obsolete.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
boysteve
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 13):
How is it that Boeing doesn't have a candidate for a VLA?! What is the 747-8 then? Last time i checked that was a pretty damned good VLA...

Yes it maybe a good aircraft and may provide a perfect replacement for many B744's. However if an airline needs a bigger aircraft still then Boeing cannot match the A380. Period. Obviously there have been interesting like for like battles recently, take the last 10 years; The A330 has outsold the B767 in that time however the B777 has then outsold the larger A340 models. This is due to direct competition. However with VLA either the B748 OR the A388 will fit best, there is no direct competition in this sector, just compromise.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 17):
Yes it maybe a good aircraft and may provide a perfect replacement for many B744's. However if an airline needs a bigger aircraft still then Boeing cannot match the A380. Period. Obviously there have been interesting like for like battles recently, take the last 10 years; The A330 has outsold the B767 in that time however the B777 has then outsold the larger A340 models. This is due to direct competition. However with VLA either the B748 OR the A388 will fit best, there is no direct competition in this sector, just compromise.

The point is there just isn't enough of a market for two A380 sized aircraft; I believe Boeing decided there wasn't even enough demand to justify building one.
I think Airbus is now wishing they hadn't.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
boysteve
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
The point is there just isn't enough of a market for two A380 sized aircraft; I believe Boeing decided there wasn't even enough demand to justify building one.
I think Airbus is now wishing they hadn't.

I disagree, if there is only the market for 1 A380 sized aircraft as you suggest then Airbus would still be pleased they were the one providing it and not Boeing. Obviously they wish they had much better project management but the A380 will not be judged on EIS or current order books. History will judge the A380 on how it performs and satisfies market demand over the next 20 years. That is something that we all have strong opinions on now but no facts!
 
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SEPilot
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 19):
I disagree, if there is only the market for 1 A380 sized aircraft as you suggest then Airbus would still be pleased they were the one providing it and not Boeing. Obviously they wish they had much better project management but the A380 will not be judged on EIS or current order books. History will judge the A380 on how it performs and satisfies market demand over the next 20 years. That is something that we all have strong opinions on now but no facts!

You are quite right that we have no facts; but you misunderstood what I said. I said that Boeing decided that there was NOT enough market for even one plane larger than the 747; and I also believe that the A380 will never be profitable; granted, that is partly the result of their poor product management, as you say. But I think that composite aircraft will obsolete ALL aluminum aircraft before the A380 has a real chance. Note that of the first three "jumbos", only the 747 made money.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
airbazar
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 13):
How is it that Boeing doesn't have a candidate for a VLA?! What is the 747-8 then? Last time i checked that was a pretty damned good VLA...

I don't really know where one should draw the line between LA and VLA but if you pay close attention, the number seats per aircraft has been going down significantly on long haul aircraft primarily due to increased amenities in first and business class cabins. By the time the 747-8 comes out, airlines will likely configure it with about the same number of seats that NW and SQ had on their first 744's. That's not really an increase in capacity from the previous model. In those terms the 747-8 won't be any more VLA than the current 744.
 
zvezda
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):
I think that composite aircraft will obsolete ALL aluminum aircraft before the A380 has a real chance.

 checkmark  The A350-1000 and 787-10 will cut deep in the VLA market by undercutting them on CASM. Of the three historic reasons for buying the JumboJet (range 60%, CASM 30%, and capacity 10%) 60% of the market disappeared with the introduction of the 777-200ER and A340-500 (that's when 747-400 sales fell off). Of the remaining 40%, 30% of the original or 75% of the current market will disappear with the advent of the A350-1000 and 787-10. What little will be left will probably be satisfied by the VLAs that will already be on order then. The 747-8 SuperJumbo and the WhaleJet have, in my opinion, a rather short sales life. CASM would need to fall another 10% or so for the VLAs to sell well after about 2010.
 
atmx2000
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
The A350-1000 and 787-10 will cut deep in the VLA market by undercutting them on CASM. Of the three historic reasons for buying the JumboJet (range 60%, CASM 30%, and capacity 10%) 60% of the market disappeared with the introduction of the 777-200ER and A340-500 (that's when 747-400 sales fell off).

How did the A345 make the 744's sales drop off? Are you saying the launch of the A340NG did it, because EIS was much after the 744 order drop off in 1997. While the decrease was in at least part due to the 772ER, there were other factors at play during this time. The Asian financial crisis weakened a lot of Asian Boeing widebody customers, and the strong dollar made it more difficult for Boeing to sell aircraft abroad.

Now while the passenger VLAs will see a sales drop off, I don't see it happening until a few more years into the decade. However, the cargo version will likely sell well for quite some time.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 12):
Well I was intrigued by the 777's cabin crew rest area where they have 3 beds, where exactly is the rest area located on the plane?

Hey Brad,

Sorry I couldn't post links to pictures earlier - had to leave work! Here's a shot of what I believe is the flight crew (pilot/co-pilot) crew rest:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Norbert Genci



On certain long range 777s there is also a crew rest for flight attendants:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Smit



Interestingly (to me anyway) Airbus uses lower deck space for galleys and lavatories on 340s. Check it:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Aurich


Note that this picture shows lower deck galleys and lower deck crew rest. Pretty cool! Here:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Aurich



you can see the double elevators used to lift the carts to the main deck. Damn, airplanes are cool.

And finally, here's the stairs:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



Also, Bradley, note that half (maybe more than half) the fun of Airliners.net is that any innocent question can be turned into a huge debate on the merits of one airline vs. another or one airplane manufacturer vs. another. So many people on here are so passionate about their love of the subject that it's always interesting. (I am a new member who has been lurking for some months...)

[Edited 2007-01-05 06:07:11]
 
kaitak744
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:14 pm

Well, Boeing had an aircraft line that was old, and simply not selling well: the 767. They decided to replace it with the: 787.

As noted above, though the floor area of the 787-8/3 is bigger than the 767-300/300ER, the 787 IS the 767 replacement.

The 787 is supposed to provide a more "comfortable and enjoyable flying experience." So, with 2-4-2 seating, nice pitch and legroom, and being "more comfortable than the 767," the 787 seats roughly as much as a 767.

However, most airlines do not wish to offer the more "comfortable and enjoyable flying experience" that Boeing originally intended. So, in airline terms, configuring the 787 to comfort levels of today makes for a much larger aircraft than the 767.

Hope that makes sense.

And the whole idea of the 787 replacing the 777-200 and 777-200ER is recent. It is all because of Airbus cannibalizing its own A340 line and Emirates begging for a bigger plane. As even Randy Baseler and others at Boeing said, "it is better for Boeing to replace its own product than have another company do it for them." Hence, this all brings about the 787-10, which will be a direct 777-200ER/A340-300 replacement. A potential 787-10ER could replace the 777-200LR and A340-500. But that is not until +2015.
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 25):
As even Randy Baseler and others at Boeing said, "it is better for Boeing to replace its own product than have another company do it for them."

 checkmark  Assuming the 787 platform is as efficient as Boeing says it will be, a long 787 will clobber a 777-200 or 200ER. It would be great business practice on Boeing's part to keep a strong player in such a lucrative segment.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:24 pm



What is the thing on the left that looks like a microwave oven?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
BrettFromCLT
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):
What is the thing on the left that looks like a microwave oven?

FAs don't deserve popcorn like the rest of us?  wink  Looks like a storage compartment on each side but I'm sure an FA who has access to this area could tell us the truth. Please?
 
dxBrian
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:44 pm

That's an emergency exit. You can see the sign at the top left of the photo, and there is a fire bottle immediately below it.

Not sure why they would have an exit up there, though. You would think all the FAs would be in their seats during take-off or landing which are the most hazardous parts of any flight.
 
zvezda
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
How did the A345 make the 744's sales drop off? Are you saying the launch of the A340NG did it, because EIS was much after the 744 order drop off in 1997.

The A340-500 and 777-200ER offered better range than the 747-400. Therefore, most customers who had been buying 747-400s for their range (about 60% of all 747 customers according to a Boeing survey) started buying 777-200ERs or A340-500s instead. The EIS date is not very relevant. We're talking about orders, so as soon as a better (i.e. smaller but with better range) alternative became available to order, the 747 orders dropped off. The 30% of the market that needed 747-400s for low CASM and the 10% that needed them for capacity could be satisfied in most cases by shifting 747s that had previously been used just for range as they were replaced by 777-200ERs.

Now, no one is buying 747-8 SuperJumbos or WhaleJets just for their range. They are down to the 40% of the previous market that wants them either for low CASM or for capacity. If the numbers from the Boeing survey still hold true, then 75% of current VLA customers are buying them for low CASM and 25% for capacity (i.e. due to slot constraints). Very soon, airlines will have the alternative of ordering A350-1000s or 787-10s to get even lower CASM. That will eliminate about 75% of the current market for VLAs.

Prior to the introduction of the 777-200ER and A340-500, it made sense to deploy 747-400s where any one of three conditions held: no other aircraft had sufficient range to serve the route, the demand curve was very fat, or slots/frequencies were prohibitively expensive to obtain. Right now, it makes sense to deploy VLAs where either demand curves are very fat or slots/frequencies are prohibitively expensive to obtain. The only markets where it will make sense to deploy VLAs after about 2014 will be where both demand curves are very fat and slots/frequencies are prohibitively expensive to obtain.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30):
The only markets where it will make sense to deploy VLAs after about 2014 will be where both demand curves are very fat and slots/frequencies are prohibitively expensive to obtain.

 checkmark 
My guess is that'll be less than 300 total aircraft, and the fact that the 748 makes a better freighter than the A380 will make it a better buy than the A380. Note that when Boeing originally designed the 747 they deliberately put the cockpit on the upper deck to make a better freighter; they figured that after a few years everyone would be flying passengers in SST's and 747's would be converted to freighters. It didn't happen that way but their foresight still paid off.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Bradleycheuk
Topic Author
Posts: 22
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:22 am

Are those windows at the end of the galley way on the airbus?


http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0591519/M/


Thanks
Brad
 
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Stitch
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Bradleycheuk (Reply 32):
Are those windows at the end of the galley way on the airbus?

The picture caption notes "You can also see the Crew Rest area" so I am going to hazard a guess those are the sleeping cubicles with doors(?) attached.
 
ha763
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RE: What Role Is The 787 Suppose To Play?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):
What is the thing on the left that looks like a microwave oven?

Looks more like a dumbwaiter. You can see a panel above the door with stop, up, and down buttons. Storage areas do not have windows.

Quoting DxBrian (Reply 29):
That's an emergency exit. You can see the sign at the top left of the photo, and there is a fire bottle immediately below it.

Um, no. The exit sign is pointing down and is located right above the stairs, which is how the F/As enter and exit the crew rest area.

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