cchan
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NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:49 pm

I have always wondered if NZ keeps their 767-300ERs (instead of getting rid of them when the 787 arrive) for low cost long haul operations to Asia or USA. Will it work out? There will be people who will be happy to go with no PTV and minimal service if it means saving NZ$300 or so?!
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Put it this way. From here in Australia the Air NZ 767 product to Honolulu is virtually identical to the Jetstar A330 (which is a facelifted Qantas domestic jet).

Near-identical business class seats cost $6000 return on Air NZ, but $2700 for the same seat desgnated as Star Class on Jetstar. Air NZ has superior catering, but Jetstar gives away noise-cancelling headphones, has in-seat power and gives a personal DVD player.

And in Economy Air NZ gives only 1 inch more legroom.

My point is that Air NZ continues to charge an absurd premium over the competition, but has gradually removed frills (2 inches of lost legroom, no AVOD on 767 and A320 aircraft, insulting food choices on short-haul).

Something needs to happen.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:18 am

Koruman does have a very good point. The 767 is nothing to write home about. It would be interesting to see Air NZ do a jetstar style operation, however whether it will take off or not is another story I'm guessing.
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 1):
Put it this way. From here in Australia the Air NZ 767 product to Honolulu is virtually identical to the Jetstar A330 (which is a facelifted Qantas domestic jet).

One minor difference DRINKS, FOOD and ENTERTAINMENT is FREE on NZ

So not identical at all plus the 1 inch extra leg room can make a difference also.. But i agree not like the 777 and 744 with AVOD and all ..Would be nice to see a across the board standard on all long haul flights ..Even if they just made business on the 767 and renamed it premium economy !! As its not like the business premier on the 777 and 744 on their long haul flights..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:16 am

As for is it possible i would say there could be a good chance but it wont be advertised as NZ services it would be freedomair SJ services.

But i doubt its likely soon ..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:32 am

I need to correct NZrich there.

If you buy a Jetstar Star Class return ticket for $2700 from Australia you get:

1. Free food and drink.
2. The same seat as Air NZ Business Class, except with noise-cancelling headphones which are yours to keep.
3. A personal DVD (not on NZ business class).
4. In-seat Power (not on NZ business class).
5. Qantas frequent flyer points and status credits at Business Class rates.
6. Qantas Club lounge access.

It's less than half the price of Air NZ. The only extra you get on Air NZ is better catering. But is a single meal each way worth the extra $3300 which Air New Zealand charges?
 
cchan
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
the 1 inch extra leg room can make a difference also

Most people would not notice this until they go on the plane.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
Would be nice to see a across the board standard on all long haul flights

Also on short haul flights. On routes which get 747/777, 767, and A320, one pays the same price but the level of comfort is very different dependent on which flight one chooses.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 2):
The 767 is nothing to write home about

I don't really care much about inflight entertainment and service. The 767 is reasonably comfortable if you don't need AVOD etc. I think the 767s NZ have can earn them some extra cash if they transfer these birds to SJ and sell the seats cheaply.
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:55 am

Personally, I'd like to see the 4 owned 767s have the same floor strengthening used by Air Canada to enable them to have the Business Premier and Premium Economy products added, say, 18J / 21U / 150 Y, for a total of 189 seats, with all seats enjoying the same in-flight product as the 747 and 777 fleet.

And then I would use them on SYD-HKG-SYD, MEL-HKG-MEL and BNE-HKG-BNE to feed into the 747 service to London.

If Air NZ did that they would be a significant player on the lucrative Kangaroo Route from London to Australia. They already have the rights, they just need a small long-haul aircraft to feed passengers from Australia to the Hong Kong hub.

Alternatively, they could extend from Shanghai (PVG) to London, and fly from Australia to PVG with cheap Chinese crews and costs.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:35 pm

It is obvious that there is market which NZ could tap into using it's 767 for low cost long haul flights but looking at what NZ is currently doing with SJ at the moment, I doubt that any sort of operation will happen.

I could see possible routes being :

AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

Let's also remember that this could happen with 787's next decade.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 1):

Air New Zealand's Business Class on the 763 has a 50" seat pitch as opposed to the Jet Star 38" one. NZ also has an in-built video system in the seat where as Jet Star requires you to watch only movies via a portable dvd player.

In economy Class as said above, IFE, food, drinks e.t.c are all free of charge.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
And then I would use them on SYD-HKG-SYD, MEL-HKG-MEL and BNE-HKG-BNE to feed into the 747 service to London.

I think NZ will do this in the future, but only once the 787's come online.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 8):
It is obvious that there is market which NZ could tap into using it's 767 for low cost long haul flights but looking at what NZ is currently doing with SJ at the moment, I doubt that any sort of operation will happen.

I could see possible routes being :

AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

If that's the case maybe even a return to places such as SIN and a carry on to YVR from HNL
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
they just need a small long-haul aircraft to feed passengers from Australia to the Hong Kong hub.

An interesting outline. The still air distance HKG-MEL/SYD southbound assuming -20k winds is about 4200nm. From the load/range charts for this stage length the 767-300ER is close to capable of MZFW which allows plenty of leeway to increase the service ready OEW plus the passenger load that Koruman envisages plus freight.
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:28 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
One minor difference DRINKS, FOOD and ENTERTAINMENT is FREE on NZ

But that is included in the price thou

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
Personally, I'd like to see the 4 owned 767s have the same floor strengthening used by Air Canada to enable them to have the Business Premier and Premium Economy products added, say, 18J / 21U / 150 Y, for a total of 189 seats, with all seats enjoying the same in-flight product as the 747 and 777 fleet.

That won't happen because it would then reduce the routes that the B763 can fly on. NZ would then have to find an aircraft that can fly the HNL route. I seriously doubt the B763 would even make it as far as HKG with all the extra weight, unless you fancy landing in the sea and swimming the rest with your luggage
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FlyboyOz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:47 pm

I thought Freedomair is the low cost international airlines cos it also flies to Australia. Do you think that ANZ will use freedomair to be the NZ budget long haul airlines?

Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 12):
Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?

Ever since SJ started, its been 100% owned by NZ, but run as a totally seperate airline, even thou they work together on routes
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planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 9):
If that's the case maybe even a return to places such as SIN and a carry on to YVR from HNL

A couple of weeks ago I would have laughed at the idea of SIN but with SQ downgrading their AKL service, I would not be surprised at all if SIN was a strong candidate. HNL would be a yes but I still think that YVR would be served non stop or via NAN using 777s. Whether or not it will be AC or NZ metal is debatable.

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 12):
Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?

No. SJ was started up in the mid 1990's when the low cost airlines first came to New Zealand - most namingly Kiwi. It was NZ's idea that SJ would be able to fly from the smaller towns and provinces and eventually breakdown Kiwi. Eventually this did happen. Since then, other airlines like K2000 have tried and failed.
 
antskip
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 14):

No. SJ was started up in the mid 1990's when the low cost airlines first came to New Zealand - most namingly Kiwi. It was NZ's idea that SJ would be able to fly from the smaller towns and provinces and eventually breakdown Kiwi. Eventually this did happen. Since then, other airlines like K2000 have tried and failed.

NZ needs to watch carefully how to do it - QF's JQ has a much bigger brief and a growing budget, yet works very closely with its parent company QF. JQ is going to change the skies over the Pacific, the Tasman and perhaps within New Zealand as well over the next few years. I am not confident that NZ and Freedom are ready for it.
 
Australia1
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:29 pm

Canada 3000 was about to return to 2 class with their A330-200's when SEP11 happened.

They flew

YVR/HNL/BNE/SYD/AKL/RAR/HNL/YVR & reverse evry week. With the exception of RAR, route would work again today with a LCC or charters !!!
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:49 pm

My model of the new product on the 767 cuts capacity from 234 passengers to 179. This loses 73 seats and puts in 18 heavy Business Premier beds.

Would that really make it to heavy to still have the range it does now?

Besides, I would see this as part of a model of switching all Pacific services to 777 and A320 operations. The extra 777 capacity would come from extending Shanghai to Europe (and changing from a 777 to 747) and closing Osaka.
 
cchan
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:40 pm

Are there firm plans that the 767s will retire when the 787s come online?

With the 5 767s they own, I think it is good to retain them for routes which are dominated by budget passengers who don't mind an inferior products as long as it is cheaper than other airlines can offer. For example, there are lots of foreign students and immigrants in NZ who will fly the cheapest flights they can find back to their home country in Asia. For some of the China and India routes, and even for a 2nd HKG flight, I think the old 767 is the way to go rather than putting a brand new 787 on. The new 787s, presumably with the new business class and premium economy, can go on routes with more business customers who are willing to pay more for their comfort.
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:06 pm

Quite frankly, given that Osaka, Tokyo and Shanghai are all monopoly routes with no competition you would think that they should be the flights with the inferior in-flight product at present, given that passengers have no alternative carrier.

Mind you, I think that the Osaka route is past its sell-by date anyway.
 
Australia1
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
My model of the new product on the 767 cuts capacity from 234 passengers to 179. This loses 73 seats and puts in 18 heavy Business Premier beds.

I think you're looking the wrong way. According to Boeing site, you can get up to 351 seats on a 763 !!!

On this basis, you get roughly 3 seats instead of 1 business class (not just width, but pitch).

Feel this is the future, especially short term, where pax, esp. Australians are getting used to LCC's & we're heading for a huge recesssion, following on from the huge boom we've had over last 5-7 years !!!
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Australia1, I'm talking about a different, more profitable market.

As Virgin Atlantic has shown, you can combine a low cost base with a luxurious premium class product and have big profits.

Air NZ is never going to get more than a couple of hundred passengers per day from Melbourne or Brisbane if it enters the Kangaroo route.

But if 15 of them on each plane are paying Business Premier fares of $10,000 return to London, and another 20 are paying Premium Economy fares of $3,000 then you already have $210,000 of revenue, even before the Economy Class passengers, say 140 at $2000 each or $280,000. This model has a total revenue across a return flight of $490,000, but fuel costs for just 175 passengers.

That was not a misprint. 15 Business Premier and 20 Premium Economy passengers earn 3/4 of as much revenue as 140 Economy passengers. And that is the attraction of Australia as a long-haul market for Air NZ: more companies and leisure passengers which can afford premium class travel.

If you went for your all-Economy no-frills model with fares reduced to $1500 return you would need to sell a minimum of 330 of the 351 seats you mention to raise the same revenue, and that wouldn't pay for the extra fuel for twice as many passengers and their luggage. And seating pitch would be down to 28 inches (from 32 now) which is deeply unpleasant, and would drive down the fares which could be charged to near-charter levels.

If there were 330 passengers per day that Air NZ could attract to fly from BNE and MEL to London they would already be operating 747s on those routes.

Basically it would recreate the Tasman Express fiasco on a long-haul flight, by requiring impossibly high loads to compensate for the unrealistically low yields. And it just can't sustain 95%+ loads day in, day out, which is what such low-cost no-frills models require.

There is a reason why airlines keep premium class seats - even Jetstar International. They are more profitable.

[Edited 2007-01-06 13:19:01]
 
Australia1
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
But if 15 of them on each plane are paying Business Premier fares of $10,000 return to London, and another 20 are paying Premium Economy fares of $3,000 then you already have $210,000 of revenue, even before the Economy Class passengers, say 140 at $2000 each or $280,000. This model has a total revenue across a return flight of $490,000, but fuel costs for just 175 passengers.

your fares are way too high !!!

LCC long haul can work with lots of Y class, if not saturating market.

Eg. if there's a market that can handle say 50 seats/day, then rather than go twice a week with 180+ seats, go once a week with 350+ seats.

Then find another similar direct route & so on.
 
cchan
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 19):
I think that the Osaka route is past its sell-by date anyway

Their solution seems to be doing AKL-NRT-KIX-AKL with a 772 on Wed and Thu, and flying direct to KIX on Mon and Sat from Apr onwards.
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 5):
I need to correct NZrich there.

If you buy a Jetstar Star Class return ticket for $2700 from Australia you get:

1. Free food and drink.
2. The same seat as Air NZ Business Class, except with noise-cancelling headphones which are yours to keep.
3. A personal DVD (not on NZ business class).
4. In-seat Power (not on NZ business class).
5. Qantas frequent flyer points and status credits at Business Class rates.
6. Qantas Club lounge access.

It's less than half the price of Air NZ. The only extra you get on Air NZ is better catering. But is a single meal each way worth the extra $3300 which Air New Zealand charges?

Sorry I was talking about the economy part of the plane where there are the differences i quoted above..

Star class is actually only like nz's premium economy on the 777/747 but with full economy service instead of the premium meals soon to be offered on NZ and business class wines. But i agree with you something needs to be done with the 767 either redefine the zones upgrade or give them to SJ..

As for your comparison between business and star class a few corrections

1, nz has entertainment about 8 channels that run on a loop not avod
2, seats are different more seat pich on nz 50" compared to 38"
"Pride of the pacific"
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 19):
Quite frankly, given that Osaka, Tokyo and Shanghai are all monopoly routes with no competition you would think that they should be the flights with the inferior in-flight product at present, given that passengers have no alternative carrier.

Apparantley, part of the agreement with JL is that if NZ didn't put on the 777's to Japan with the new product then JL would eneter the market and yet another market would be lost by NZ. If my memory serves me correctly, NZ's 763's can't do AKL-PVG, I mean it is already 12 hours and 45 minutes with a 772!

Quoting Cchan (Reply 23):
Their solution seems to be doing AKL-NRT-KIX-AKL with a 772 on Wed and Thu, and flying direct to KIX on Mon and Sat from Apr onwards.

Local traffic rights on NRT-KIX? What will happen to the KIX-CHC flight then? NRT will retain 5 non stops then and 2 one stop flights coming back?
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:13 am

I never, never thought I would find myself defending Jetstar, but can I just add that although the pitch between Star Class seats is, as many of you have written, only 38 inches (compared with 42 inches on NZ A320s or 50 inches on NZ 767s), the seat itself is almost identical to the Air New Zealand 767 Business Class seat, with the addition of in-seat power on Jetstar.

I think when planning Budget long-haul you need to ask what are the biggest profit opportunities facing Air NZ? The answer is not marginal routes to secondary Asian destinations, but getting a share of the lucrative markets from Australia to London and Los Angeles, both of which Air NZ has rights to which other airlines would kill to have.

And then, as I have written, it becomes all about how to feed passengers from Australia to Hong Kong (or even Shanghai, where cheap cabin crew can be employed) to pick up the flight to LHR. And the 767s would be a great vehicle to do this.

2007 is doing strange things to Koruman. I haven't mentioned PPT once in this thread, I have advocated expanding Hong Kong and Shanghai as hubs and I have put in a good word for Jetstar. Unbelievable.
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:27 am

Not putting the 777 on Japan routes would make JAL operate the flights?

Fantastic! By putting the crappiest planes on the fleet onto the failing NRT and KIX routes, Air New Zealand could get out of these high-cost, middling-yield, deteriorating-load flights without upsetting the government by leaving NZ without direct flights bringing tourists from Japan.

What a superb outcome! Can Air NZ lease back some DC-8s for a week and threaten to put them onto AKL-NRT and AKL-KIX?

If what planemanofnz has written is correct that would be a deadset sure way of exiting the two troublesome Japan routes while ensuring that JAL would still deliver the same number of tourists.

[Edited 2007-01-07 01:28:43]
 
767er
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:21 am

My god Koruman you were right - you have not mentioned PPT once. I am in shock! In fact, we all are!

Cheers mate!
Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 27):
Not putting the 777 on Japan routes would make JAL operate the flights?

Fantastic! By putting the crappiest planes on the fleet onto the failing NRT and KIX routes, Air New Zealand could get out of these high-cost, middling-yield, deteriorating-load flights without upsetting the government by leaving NZ without direct flights bringing tourists from Japan.

I don't think you understand. The New Zealand Government actually own the majority of Air New Zealand and NRT is not exactly un-profitable. KIX IS and that is the problem. But to my understanding, if one is dropped, then JL will come in and the New Zealand government would not like that because it would mean that their company would loose a market. It does not matter to them whether or not it is profitable or not, the fact is it will mean a loss for Air New Zealand's route network.

While SIN, TPE and NGO have been dropped in the past 14 months, PVG, VLI and IUE were added. Likewise with PPT, although PPT-LAX is dropped, RAR-LAX is replacing it.
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
While SIN, TPE and NGO have been dropped in the past 14 months, PVG, VLI and IUE were added. Likewise with PPT, although PPT-LAX is dropped, RAR-LAX is replacing it.

Hmm but its still a major net loss ..
GONE
daily 777 sin
2/3 week 767 tpe
2 week 767 ngo
3 week 767 akl-rar-ppt-lax
multiple tasman flights A320

ADDED
3 week 777 pvg
1 week A320 vli
1 week 733 iue
1 week 767 akl-rar-lax
"Pride of the pacific"
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 30):
GONE
daily 777 sin
2/3 week 767 tpe
2 week 767 ngo
3 week 767 akl-rar-ppt-lax
multiple tasman flights A320

While frequencies have been lost, no destinations have been axed across the Tasman. Yet.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 30):
ADDED
3 week 777 pvg
1 week A320 vli
1 week 733 iue
1 week 767 akl-rar-lax

You can add to that the very important and new daily HKG-LHR flight operated by the 744's. Also, in the past 6 months, HKG has been upgraded from 5 weekly 763 flights to daily 744 flights.
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:29 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 31):

While frequencies have been lost, no destinations have been axed across the Tasman. Yet.

That was exactly what i meant to say ..

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 31):
You can add to that the very important and new daily HKG-LHR flight operated by the 744's. Also, in the past 6 months, HKG has been upgraded from 5 weekly 763 flights to daily 744 flights.

How did i forget that one !!
Better add the down grade of LAX-LHR from 744 to 777 and some of the AKL-LAX from 744 to 777 ..

All up even with these still a loss of routes...
"Pride of the pacific"
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 30):

SIN and such airports cannot be compared to such petty airports like Niue. Operations by the 767 WITH ongoing connections (although they might not actually use these over SQ, but still were offered) is much better than a 737 service to a little tiny island in the middle of the Pacific where the majority of the indigenous people live in NZ and there are no connections to anywhere else, only the boat ride to the villages in random islands scattered over hundreds of kilometres. Too bad SQ had a falling out with NZ, or they would still be operating there, making much more money than flying to IUE.

If NZ make the second daily flight to HKG with a 767 from AKL, it would be pretty much a cargo flight although the 747 can carry more. The outdated IFE etc, only the Business Class flight attendents will be looking forward to it as it means taking the cart down the aisle. 3 flights with IFE and good service will mean the price for that other flight has to be significantly lower than the others to make it viable.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 8):

AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

Sorry, going a while back here.. IMO AKL-DPS is semi-dead.. Garuda flies via BNE and I wouldn't expect there to be too much traffic going there this soon after the Bali Bombings. NZ-Indonesia certainly doesn't warrant a full year round non-stop service. It's just too dangerous for people to venture to. AKL-MNL could be done with a stop in Australia, definitely able to do better if it went through SYD for example. If KIX were to be closed, I wouldn't bring it back with a 767. If people are desperate to go to there, the bullet train is much more efficient, and for NZ's sake, one full flight should be much better. CHC-HKG... How about getting SIN back up first? What's wrong with AKL at the moment? The flight leaves so late it allows people to get up to AKL without hassle after the peak time and cruise with ease to the international terminal at 10pm. If these planes were configured to be slightly more premium although kept at Freedomair's level (Suite Seats.. just increase the number and base the entire service on Jetstar), then I see these routes succeeding.

Is sending a 767 to South America via PPT a bad idea? What about South Africa? If they are going to sell them, why not expand first and see how they go and then buy more aircraft to replace them with in 7-10 years time?
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
cchan
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 25):
Local traffic rights on NRT-KIX? What will happen to the KIX-CHC flight then? NRT will retain 5 non stops then and 2 one stop flights coming back?

No traffic rights between NRT and KIX. The Sat KIX flight will make a stop at CHC, others go direct to AKL. For NRT, the Wed and Thu flights will stop at KIX, others are either direct to AKL or stop at CHC.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 27):
What a superb outcome! Can Air NZ lease back some DC-8s for a week and threaten to put them onto AKL-NRT and AKL-KIX?

You never know, they may be making more money by doing this. There are some die-hard DC-8 fans out there who will pay anything for the ride!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 33):
If NZ make the second daily flight to HKG with a 767 from AKL, it would be pretty much a cargo flight although the 747 can carry more.

If NZ or SJ make that 767 flight cheap, like NZ$1200 pp, then it will be filled with passengers. There will be a good number of CX customers who will be happy to go on the NZ/SJ 767 and save a few hundred dollars!
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:18 pm

Quoting Cchan (Reply 34):
If NZ or SJ make that 767 flight cheap, like NZ$1200 pp, then it will be filled with passengers. There will be a good number of CX customers who will be happy to go on the NZ/SJ 767 and save a few hundred dollars!

At the rate of NZ at the moment, do you think they will? The Freedomair fares are quite the same.. I'm sure those CX passengers will want meals already paid for etc.. Therefore a more premium configured plane would suit this new SJ fleet if it happened to acquire these 767s. Remember, we're pretty much still dreaming right now.. They are possible but I wonder if Fyfe thinks the same way as we do.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 33):
Quoting Nzrich (Reply 30):
SIN and such airports cannot be compared to such petty airports like Niue.

Originally brought up by planemanofnz in reply 29 about routes dropped and gained ..I agree thou SIN cant be compared to IUE but interesting IUE is still on the NZ operated routes and SIN is not !! Which still surprises me as when i used to operate it on the 767 it was nearly always full..

Quoting Cchan (Reply 34):
No traffic rights between NRT and KIX. The Sat KIX flight will make a stop at CHC, others go direct to AKL. For NRT, the Wed and Thu flights will stop at KIX, others are either direct to AKL or stop at CHC.

Have operated that route NRT-KIX just cant pick up domestic passengers ..Used to go NRT-KIX-NZ mind you that was a couple of years ago now.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 33):
AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

Would doubt AKL-MNL/KUL would ever be seen in the route schedule..

DPS might get the loads but doubt the airfares would help it to make a profit.. More likely see a return to AKL-SIN as a budget SJ maybe with DPS as a stopover enroute that may work..

AKL-KIX i would wait to see how JQ do first to see if the Japanese take to it..

AKL-HNL a perfect SJ route in my opinion

CHC-HKG more likely a NZ route to meet the LHR flight with the 787 when it arrives..

AKL-BKK maybe under SJ could work with a stopover also in DPS
"Pride of the pacific"
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:50 pm

AKL-HNL may be a perfect SJ-operated route, but only if its is NZ-coded with NZ Airpoints and frequent flyer points earning for BMI and Lufthansa frequent flyers..

I've sworn not to mention PPT on this thread: let's just say that the Pacific stations (including HNL) are a significant magnet for traffic from Europe to Australia / NZ of people wanting a dream stopover.

Stop seeing AKL-HNL as an outward market for Kiwis seeking a cheap holiday, and start recognising HNL as a significant stopover for inbound visitors to New Zealand.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 33):
If NZ make the second daily flight to HKG with a 767 from AKL, it would be pretty much a cargo flight although the 747 can carry more

There's going to be a second??? Since when?
 
cchan
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:58 pm

In the next few years, NZ will need to decide what to do with their 767s. I wonder whether they will just sell them, or will NZ keep these workhorses to make more money on some alternative routes?
 
nzrich
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 37):
AKL-HNL may be a perfect SJ-operated route, but only if its is NZ-coded with NZ Airpoints and frequent flyer points earning for BMI and Lufthansa frequent flyers..

I've sworn not to mention PPT on this thread: let's just say that the Pacific stations (including HNL) are a significant magnet for traffic from Europe to Australia / NZ of people wanting a dream stopover.

Stop seeing AKL-HNL as an outward market for Kiwis seeking a cheap holiday, and start recognising HNL as a significant stopover for inbound visitors to New Zealand.

Totally 100% agree with this would have to be operated similar to JQ with a premium cabin for the NZ codeshare thou with full service airpoints etc etc..

The only island i dont really see working with SJ is PPT . PPT is just not that kind of destination for a budget carrier to work .. All other island markets could work.. HNL is definately also not a cheap destination as you say for kiwis, maybe with a SJ operating this route it could help reducing the fares and making it more affordable..As you also say it is a major inbound route for Canadian tourists , every flight i worked had a high percentage of connecting canadians on board.. Mind you if ever a direct route to Canada opens this could make HNL less viable ..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:51 am

It depends on what you call a Freedom market.

I think that the idea of Freedom as a separate brand with no Airpoints or service is stone dead, to be honest, but that the Zeal 320 model would work just fine as Zeal 767 or even, I fear, Zeal 787. All it would mean is that the pilots and cabin crew are on cheap contracts, but passengers wouldn't be able to distinguish it from "proper" Air NZ.

You could easily operate:
AKL-NAN-LAX
AKL-TBU-APW-LAX
AKL-HNL-YVR
AKL-LAX-PPT-GRU-PPT-LAX-AKL (Zeal 787)
AKL-PVG-LHR (Zeal 787)
SYD-PVG (Zeal 787)
MEL-PVG (Zeal 787)
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 38):
There's going to be a second??? Since when?

No no no.. Just a thought if the 767s went to SJ or something similar and if they operated such routes.. I know it's very unlikely to happen, putting both your normal route and giving it more competition with your own plane..

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 36):
but interesting IUE is still on the NZ operated routes and SIN is not !!

Tough, isn't it. Could be something about being called "the Pride Of The South Pacific" a few years back.. But with the dropping of PPT the name is once again in jeopardy. I think it is just there to provide a good air access to the islands for all those NZ Nuieans, if anything. I would probably think that AKL-HBA or CHC-HBA can bring in more revenue than the IUE flight but I'm not the CEO.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 41):

Do you think it will operate as ZEAL 787? They are pretty much 777s and yet there is no such thing as ZEAL 777, yet. So I think they will remain part of the "Air NZ" fleet. Such flights would be interesting, but it all comes down to how many they buy.. So many flights to PVG? Is this your idea once they have filled up the HKG routes?
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 32):
How did i forget that one !!
Better add the down grade of LAX-LHR from 744 to 777 and some of the AKL-LAX from 744 to 777 ..

If you want you can add to that the recent announcment that AKL-NAN-LAX will be upgraded from 763's to 772's aswell.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 33):
IMO AKL-DPS is semi-dead.. Garuda flies via BNE and I wouldn't expect there to be too much traffic going there this soon after the Bali Bombings.

Garuda Indonesia ceased operations to Auckland last year. This is why I think NZ or SJ could operate the route, even if it is via CNS or BNE.

If NZ or SJ were to fly to India, what would be the chances of a stop in Jakarta?
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 43):
If NZ or SJ were to fly to India, what would be the chances of a stop in Jakarta?

The religious barrier between India and Indonesia would make it quite a difficult route to conquer IMO. AKL-DRW-India maybe..?

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 43):
Garuda Indonesia ceased operations to Auckland last year

Oh yeah, my bad. But they still fly to Aussie, which will definitely pick up more people than a direct flight. It's more like a route for a 737-700ER however if it were flown direct. I think NZ could benefit by using 737-700ERs on these thin routes.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:25 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 44):
The religious barrier between India and Indonesia would make it quite a difficult route to conquer IMO. AKL-DRW-India maybe..?

No traffic at all between Darwin and India! Not enough to justify a 767 let alone a 777 for that matter!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 44):
Oh yeah, my bad. But they still fly to Aussie, which will definitely pick up more people than a direct flight. It's more like a route for a 737-700ER however if it were flown direct. I think NZ could benefit by using 737-700ERs on these thin routes.

It is to my understanding that they had plans to cut all eastern oz routes from DPS. PAX would then have to connect via CGK but they could only transfer to SYD or PER. Is this still going ahead?
 
RichardJF
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:02 pm

On the main trunk the public will demand two brands but that doesn't necessarily mean a competitor. Perception of some level of choice in airlines is what matters.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 43):
If you want you can add to that the recent announcment that AKL-NAN-LAX will be upgraded from 763's to 772's aswell.

Thats only 2 of the 3 flights and only for June through to August while the 744 is back on 1/2 which frees an extra 772 during that time.
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 45):
No traffic at all between Darwin and India! Not enough to justify a 767 let alone a 777 for that matter!

What about CGK-India then?? Anyway most people will be going right through to India with the odd one stopping in DRW and the odd one going DRW-India. The whole idea of putting the flight to India is for kiwis to get a link to India. But IMO CGK wouldn't be a great idea for a stopover.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 45):
It is to my understanding that they had plans to cut all eastern oz routes from DPS.

Not fully, they re-looked into the situation. But QF still fly there. I just can't see NZ really flying there again. Looking elsewhere as previously stated in this thread, IMO AKL-BKK is already well served by TG and there won't be much point in competing. KUL would be interesting but surely you have to look at flying back to SIN first.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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RE: NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:33 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 44):
Oh yeah, my bad. But they still fly to Aussie,

Garuda is quitting all international routes
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