masseybrown
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All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:45 am

Completing the Continental-ization of Delta's scheduling practices, "Delta is shifting all its wide-body aircraft ... into international service, where competition is less ferocious and profits are higher," said AW&ST in their Jan 1, 2007 issue.

At last they have figured out that ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.
 
EWRCabincrew
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All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:55 am

Good news to hear. You would have thought they would have done this earlier. Better late than never. More frequencies to more cities. More places to go.
You can't cure stupid
 
rolo987
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All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:55 am

What about their non ER 763s? Where are they going to fly them internationally?
 
rocANDtpa
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All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:01 am

A sort of unrelated question. Is the DL spring schedule finalized?
 
ikramerica
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All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:16 am

I can't see this story as accurate, frankly...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 2):
What about their non ER 763s? Where are they going to fly them internationally?

What I'm hearing is these will be shifted to take the place of the 764ERs on SLC/LAX service to Hawaii.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Pope
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
At last they have figured out that ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

Have you ever taken any of those flights? They're absolutely jam packed much of the time. Heck DL might want to consider replacing the 767's with an A380 (just joking) on this route.

When I used to live in ATL and commute to Jax several times each month, my company would buy me a fully refundable ticket on the route. Delta used to give tickets not Delta dollars for overbookings. I'd always book the 7:30 AM Monday ATL to Jax and the 5:00 PM Friday returns and get 2 free tickets each week just to voluntarily take the 9:00 AM or the 7:00 PM flights. Absolutely wonderful. Over three years I had something like 34 free tickets.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

Actually it does quite well....I have trouble nonrevving out of here, they're full alot of the time. There's simply not enough narrowbodies in the fleet to cover the seats required from this city.

MCO & LAX require widebodies too, from the sheer numbers they move.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
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Stitch
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
At last they have figured out that ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

The widebodies may still do domestic turns, however, in-between their international services.

UA, for example, shuttles their widebodies around their hubs and gateway (SEA) during "down-time" between international segments to improve utilization.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:55 am

I can't see them removing the widebodies from ATL-LAX/LAS/MCO & JAX. Also, they now are running a T7 from ATL-JFK, but of course this is a leg of JFK-BOM.

Especially, MCO & LAX will stay widebody, cannot see it any other way.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:56 am

Not gonna happen, DL will continue to need widebodies for Hawaiian service, primarily for ATL/CVG-HNL. Sure, LAX-HNL could be done with 757s, but 3-4x daily 757 service doesn't sound like an ideal solution, especially as far as cargo goes.

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 2):
What about their non ER 763s? Where are they going to fly them internationally?

Mostly Caribbean and LatAm. The 763 has been a regular guest at MBJ for quite some time now, and also has made appearances at SJO, GUA, and nowadays PTY. That said, there aren't enough markets in that region with the demand for a 763, let alone 24 763s for the whole region.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:17 am

The Non-ER 763s will continue to fly domestic.

Thanks.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 7):
MCO & LAX require widebodies too, from the sheer numbers they move.

Oh for sure! I can never see DL's 767s leaving MCO nor LAX. Another question is where is DL going to fly the A/C....maybe starting a MCO-CDG or add more flights on the routes they have now.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 2):
What about their non ER 763s? Where are they going to fly them internationally?

They can make shorter transatlantic flights like JFK-AMS, and the like. Likewise they can do west coast to Hawaii flights.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 2):
What about their non ER 763s? Where are they going to fly them internationally?

What I'm hearing is these will be shifted to take the place of the 764ERs on SLC/LAX service to Hawaii.

Yep, there ya go. The 764s are becoming a large part of the international operation, and shifting the 763s in to take their place on routes their range isn't needed is a great opportunity.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 7):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

Actually it does quite well....I have trouble nonrevving out of here, they're full alot of the time. There's simply not enough narrowbodies in the fleet to cover the seats required from this city.

MCO & LAX require widebodies too, from the sheer numbers they move.

Other airlines cover those with narrowbodies. DL has a large domestic narrowbody fleet of 757s, MD80s, and 737s, and that small MD90 fleet as well.

Plus, that 767 could make more money on international routes than it could flying those large numbers between JAX-ATL.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
panam330
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 13):
Other airlines cover those with narrowbodies. DL has a large domestic narrowbody fleet of 757s, MD80s, and 737s, and that small MD90 fleet as well.

Other airlines may cover MCO and LAX with narrowbodies, but have you ever seen the amount of people and cargo DL moves out of ATL to those cities? The widebodies are sorely needed. As it stands right now, MCO receives over a dozen flights a day to ATL, mostly on widebodies. Those aircraft are packed as full as they can be, and almost year-round, too. Taking a widebodies off of MCO and LAX would be more negative than positive. Delta's narrowbody fleet is stretched too thin as it as right now, and having them fly more long-range domestic flights to LAX, SEA, SFO, LAS, etc. won't help.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:13 am

Delta's widebodies are needed for the ATL-Florida runs. Also, not even the non-ER 767-300 could fly ATL-HNL or CVG-HNL, a 767-300ER or 767-400ER is needed for those routes.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Junction
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Completing the Continental-ization of Delta's scheduling practices

It was only a matter of time that DL would target this since literally all of their scheduling upper management is now former CO. But it will be interesting to see how they can truly reach this goal without reducing some domestic market share. Also, this does not mean DL will eliminate widebody completely in the domestic US (I'm guessing they are considering HI international schedule wise). It just means they will probably only operate as domestic turns between the international runs (as mentioned in reply 8) the same way CO regularly flies widebodys and internationally fleeted 757s from hub to hub. I can bet you will see markets like ONT-ATL loose the 767 however.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
Also, not even the non-ER 767-300 could fly ATL-HNL or CVG-HNL

With ETOPs certification which they are working on, they can do these easily from SLC or LAX. I don't see DL doing any HNL or other Hawaii flights from ATL, CVG or JFK for the foreseeable future. All such will be routed through SLC and perhaps LAX.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
masseybrown
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
But it will be interesting to see how they can truly reach this goal without reducing some domestic market share.

AW&ST also says that DA will to reduce domestic flying by 3% a year through 2010. To give you a sense of scale, 3% of DA = 67% of Frontier, based on 2005 RPMs; alternatively, reducing DA by 3% is the equivalent of turning SLC into a focus city EVERY YEAR for the next four. Since DA doesn't plan to give up any hubs, the domestic wide-bodies are the target.
 
sebring
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:43 am

Doesn't say much about the state of Delta's domestic demand and product.

Many if not most of these new international routes have marginal profitability, if that. It's not like good profit opportunities - low hanging fruit - haven't been recognized by the industry. And US visa and security issues make the US a poor prospect for sustained tourism growth.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 19):
Doesn't say much about the state of Delta's domestic demand and product.

DCI SkyWest is what is keeping DL in the domestic short and longhaul business increasingly (same with UA for that matter).

Quoting Sebring (Reply 19):
Many if not most of these new international routes have marginal profitability, if that. It's not like good profit opportunities - low hanging fruit - haven't been recognized by the industry. And US visa and security issues make the US a poor prospect for sustained tourism growth.

Most Europeans (as well as Canadians for that matter!) posses a valid passport. While I disagree with the need for a passport for U.S./Canada trans-border crossings, I think these new rules will encourage more Americans to get a passport over time and perhaps in 4-5 years the U.S.A. will be at the level of valid passports that Canada and Europe are at (typically over 50%).
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
stirling
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
I can't see this story as accurate, frankly...

Ditto

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
At last they have figured out that ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

I believe the ATL-JAX is an original 767 route from the 1980s when the aircraft was delivered....and from what I've learned, a route like ATL-JAX, or ATL-MCO, ATL-DFW, etc, are perfect routes for the non-ER models.

But they have so few widebodies left domestically, I was under the impression that all 767s that could go Int'l, have already done so, and those we see in N.A. were all the non-ERs.

Delta and Continental between the two of them cover Europe very well, with about the same number of destinations....Will Delta forge deeper into south and eastern Europe?
Or, would they enter into some key CO-Only markets such as GLA, OSL, or LIS?
Or, is this move to add frequency in existing markets?

Airports served with own metal...no codeshares allowed! (current & planned)

CO....DL
EDI EDI
GLA ***
BFS ***
DUB DUB
SNN SNN
MAN MAN
BHX ***
LGW LGW
BRS ***
CDG CDG
BRU BRU
AMS AMS
CGN ***
*** STR
FRA FRA
TXL TXL
HAM HAM
*** MUC
ZRH ZRH
GVA ***
OSL ***
ARN ***
CPH CPH
LIS ***
MAD MAD
BCN BCN
MXP MXP
*** VCE
*** PSA
FCO FCO
*** VIE
*** PRG
*** KBP
*** OTP

26 24



Delta does not serve 9 of CO's European airports.
Continental does not serve 8 of DL's European airports.

When thinking of where DL could go, there are the old standbys we always talk about; Helsinki, Warsaw, Nice, etc.
Or, maybe DL will go completely mad and do Rotterdam, Lyon, Alicante, and Bergen!?

When do the additional Italy flights begin? Were they not 2007? Or was I imagining that!
Delete this User
 
drerx7
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
And US visa and security issues make the US a poor prospect for sustained tourism growth.

I wouldn't totally agree on that because the weakening dollar is bringing alot of Asia and Euro tourist in--the problem with the security issues lies in hub growth--airlines cannot readily capitalize on connection traffic to 3rd nations i.e. Europe-U.S.-Latin America.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
diesel33
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
CO....DL



Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
HAM HAM

DL does not fly to Hamburg.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
Delta does not serve 9 of CO's European airports.
Continental does not serve 8 of DL's European airports.

Therefore, DL does not fly into 10 of CO's European airports.
 
panamair
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
When thinking of where DL could go, there are the old standbys we always talk about; Helsinki, Warsaw, Nice, etc

Delta already serves NCE from JFK. You may also want to include both BUD and IST on DL's list...

[Edited 2007-01-05 20:27:53]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 22):
I wouldn't totally agree on that because the weakening dollar is bringing alot of Asia and Euro tourist in--the problem with the security issues lies in hub growth--airlines cannot readily capitalize on connection traffic to 3rd nations i.e. Europe-U.S.-Latin America.

That was from reply 19. Please read again my reply from #20 below:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Most Europeans (as well as Canadians for that matter!) posses a valid passport. While I disagree with the need for a passport for U.S./Canada trans-border crossings, I think these new rules will encourage more Americans to get a passport over time and perhaps in 4-5 years the U.S.A. will be at the level of valid passports that Canada and Europe are at (typically over 50%).

Most flights to Europe will bring about fares that will be double or even 3x your average 3+ week advance purchase domestic fare. While these are long flights that tie up a/c for a longer period of time, they do bring in more revenue, even if the plane is only not even half full and certainly more than even a fully loaded 763 flying between Florida & Atlanta, or Florida and NYC.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Western727
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:32 am

Call me a whiner, but I miss the days in the 80s and 90s when it was easy to fly domestically on widebodies. I remember the good 'ol days at ATL when there were tons of L-1011s and 767s at the domestic terminals.  Smile

Anyway, I sure hope DL retains some of their non-ER 763s for mainland domestic routes. Are they really investing the money to get them all certified for ETOPS ops?
Jack @ AUS
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:43 am

There are two areas where they will not remove widebodies:

The West Coast: LAX (especially), SFO, LAS, SEA, SLC, and SAN

Florida: MCO, FLL, TPA

I fly LAX-ATL every month and I will be the first to tell you that this flight is ALWAYS full.
It is what it is...
 
Halcyon
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):

At last they have figured out that ATL-JAX is not the best use for a 767.

That route gets a lot of pax, and DL is proud to be "the" widebody service there. I personally got screwed over on that route before due to lack of seats. (And I paif for the tickets.) I think that the 767 going to MCO and JAX like that fits the bill well, and it's a nice service.
 
Thrust
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:18 am

So does that mean that DL is considering upgrading their domestic 763s to ER's? I know that sounds impractical, but just wondering. Should we expect to see any 757 overseas service? It is good that finally their 764ER's will be doing the flights they were designed for.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
masseybrown
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 28):
That route gets a lot of pax, and DL is proud to be "the" widebody service there. I personally got screwed over on that route before due to lack of seats. (And I paif for the tickets.) I think that the 767 going to MCO and JAX like that fits the bill well, and it's a nice service.

It may be nice, but does it make money? Today's numbers say that DA cannot make a competitive return on their investment by flying widebodies on shorthaul routes at a low-cost carrier's fares.

Taking widebodies out of the domestic schedule - the new Delta.

Taking four years to do it - the old Delta.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 26):
Are they really investing the money to get them all certified for ETOPS ops?

 checkmark  This is a requirement for service from SLC, SFO or LAX to go to Hawaii; ETOPs-180.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 27):
There are two areas where they will not remove widebodies:

The West Coast: LAX (especially), SFO, LAS, SEA, SLC, and SAN

Florida: MCO, FLL, TPA

The only time CVG will see them is for the few Europe flights they have. SLC now only rarely sees them compared to once upon a time, usually only to Hawaii and one or two to ATL per day.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:27 am

Aviation Week is not accurate by saying that all of DL’s widebodies will become international… because about 20 of them are not ER capable and they do not have the large cargo bin doors that are necessary for major freight operations. While the nonER 767s could theoretically fly some of the NYC-western Europe destinations, AA proved with their A300-600s and DL found out with the A310s that “usually gets you there” is not a good way to run an airline, esp. since many of the markets that the 763 could fly are competitive. You may see some of the nonER 763s fly a few supplemental all coach flights to England or Ireland during the summer but they won’t be converted to Business Elite aircraft and they won’t be used year around. DL mgmt has specifically stated that DL will have a domestic widebody fleet.

The ex-TW 757s will have better range than the nonER 763s and DL will use those aircraft to further develop northern and western Europe from NYC since DL has traditionally been stronger from NYC to Southern Europe.

DL will squeeze its domestic system and more of the domestic flying will go to connection carriers but DL is also being very aggressive about shifting regional flying to higher quality regional aircraft like the CR7, CR9, and E170 and limiting usage of the 50 seaters. Remember that many of ASA and Comair’s 50 seaters are nearing their economic life of 15 years and will be leaving the fleet in the next five years to be replaced by other aircraft. DL isn’t through with buying aircraft for its domestic fleet and you will see orders and connection carrier contracts that support its need for small, long-range domestic aircraft with mainline comfort levels.

It is also not accurate to say that DL will model its flight schedule after CO or any other airline for that matter. UA and AA also operate widebody aircraft in domestic / non-transoceanic (excl Hawaii) service, including AA’s A300 fleet which serves the Caribbean and northern S. America as well as UA’s dedicated Hawaii widebody fleet. DL is much larger than CO and also gets a much higher percentage of its revenue from ATL than any other network carrier gets from any single city. ATL is a huge hub and it justifies widebody service to a number of destinations – including some Latin American and Hawaiian destinations. While some carriers can build their route system to include narrowbody flights to multiple hubs, DL might have small narrowbody aircraft to several hubs and widebody aircraft to ATL. That is simply a reflection of the size and power of ATL. At the same time, many of those cities that justify widebody service are becoming increasingly important in feeding DL’s international flights – so you can’t skimp on seats or you choke off the international operation.

And ATL is quickly becoming a hub for connecting traffic between Asia and Europe and Latin America. Given that no other Latin American hub has as much transatlantic service as ATL, DL is very well positioned to compete in markets that are completely non-US in origin and destination making ATL just a global transfer point– just as the big European flags have been doing for years.

All of this argues for the need for short-medium haul widebodies in DL’s fleet for a long-time to come. In fact, as the older 763s are retired, it’s probably likely DL will bring some of its older ERs back to domestic / western hemisphere service since the 767 will probably be perceived as outdated by the 2020 when some of DL’s 767s will turn 20 years old and thus be completely depreciated.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 29):
So does that mean that DL is considering upgrading their domestic 763s to ER's?

Probably not, they will simply be ETOPS-rated, but not up to ER standards. Delta's non-ER 767-300s use GE CF6-80A2 engines. A 767-300ER requires GE CF6-80C2 engines or P&W PW4056/4060 engines. That means that Delta would have to re-engine all of their non-ER 767-300s.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Logos
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 14):
, MCO receives over a dozen flights a day to ATL, mostly on widebodies. Those aircraft are packed as full as they can be, and almost year-round, too.

Amen to that. I've taken a 763 at 9 p.m. on a Saturday night MCO-ATL and had it packed. Never been on a widebody on that route with more than a few seats empty.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
monorail
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:42 am

And just where do they expect to find the capacity to replace all these domestic widebodies? A quick look at today's timetable shows from ATL: 11 767s to MCO, 6 767s to LAX (the 777 runs tomorrow), 5 767s to TPA, 4 767s to FLL, 4 767s to SLC, 3 767s to SFO, 3 767s to LAS. If you cut all 763 and 764 domestic flying, you're going to have a massive hole in your system. And what are they proposing to take it's place? They have to have something lined up. Today if you take the 76's off ATL-MCO you're left with 1 ERJ and 2 757's. Is that all they plan on flying to MCO afterwards? If not, what do they plan on sending there? What about the west coast destinations? Where do they plan on finding the aircraft to replace the 767's if they even want let's say a third of the original capacity on the MCO route (and how realistic is it to believe ATL will give up on MCO like that with a reduction that big)? Unless planes start growing on trees there's going to be a disconnect. I too have to call    on this.

[Edited 2007-01-05 21:44:25]
Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs!
 
Halcyon
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 30):

It may be nice, but does it make money? Today's numbers say that DA cannot make a competitive return on their investment by flying widebodies on shorthaul routes at a low-cost carrier's fares.

I can't tell you that...I can only tell you what I know currently. Delta WILL need a lot of filler if they take out these planes as Monorail said, unless they plan on giving them up. As for the "new Delta," it's a mess...maybe it's the reorg. going on, but they have treated me the worst of any airline I've flown this year, and they seem to be in bad shape with their morale and in terms of basic communication between the customer and even within their own company.

I love Delta and hope they get better, because I still believe that they can be one of the best. (Plus my family works for them.) They may indeed decide to pull all the widebodies, and hevens knows they have analyzed the decision well, but I still wonder what they're going to do? Bring in more CRJs? Drop routes? Who knows.

I did not mean to insult your intelligence with my post; that is just what the employees at DL have told me about the route.

Quoting Monorail (Reply 35):
Where do they plan on finding the aircraft to replace the 767's if they even want let's say a third of the original capacity on the MCO route (and how realistic is it to believe ATL will give up on MCO like that with a reduction that big)? Unless planes start growing on trees there's going to be a disconnect. I too have to call on this.

 checkmark  That's a lot of restructuring they'd have to do...they'd have the other choice of buying more aircraft, but I don't think they can do that. I really would be interested in knowing how they think that they CAN do it. Strange indeed.

Lucas  Smile
 
Viscount724
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
And ATL is quickly becoming a hub for connecting traffic between Asia and Europe and Latin America. Given that no other Latin American hub has as much transatlantic service as ATL, DL is very well positioned to compete in markets that are completely non-US in origin and destination making ATL just a global transfer point� just as the big European flags have been doing for years.

The need for US transit visas by citizens of many countries has made the US much less attractive as a connecting hub between non-US origins/destinations than it was prior to 9/11 when transit visa requirements were less restrictive. Canada has benefited from the US restrictions and AC is carrying quite a bit of Latin America-Europe/Asia traffic as many nationalities which require a transit visa for the USA can still transit Canada without a visa.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):

CO....DL
EDI EDI
GLA ***
BFS ***
DUB DUB
SNN SNN
MAN MAN
BHX ***
LGW LGW
BRS ***
CDG CDG
BRU BRU
AMS AMS
CGN ***
*** STR
FRA FRA
TXL TXL
HAM HAM
*** MUC
ZRH ZRH
GVA ***
OSL ***
ARN ***
CPH CPH
LIS ***
MAD MAD
BCN BCN
MXP MXP
*** VCE
*** PSA
FCO FCO
*** VIE
*** PRG
*** KBP
*** OTP

26 24



Delta does not serve 9 of CO's European airports.
Continental does not serve 8 of DL's European airports.

There are a number of airports DL serves that aren't on that list. IST, ATH, NCE, BUD, DUS, and SVO. They also don't serve HAM.

So that's 29 European airports DL serves or will serve, and 10 CO European airports CO serves that DL doesn't and 14 DL European airports that CO doesn't serve.

That statement about widebodies is incorrect. The 24 non-ER 767-300s will continue to fly strictly domestically and to the Caribbean and Latin America. You may see more 767-400s moved to international, but ATL/CVG-HNL will continue to be served with them. So there will still be at least 30 aircraft that fly domestically in the DL system.

Jeremy
 
monorail
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 36):
Delta WILL need a lot of filler if they take out these planes as Monorail said, unless they plan on giving them up.

Maybe they don't plan on compensating...  Wink
Conspiracy theory time: The REAL reason they're dumping all this "excess" (but actually profitable) capacity is to scare US away from further pursuing the merger/buyout (though this may be an ill-conceived plan)   

Edit: Sarcasm smiley to emphasize that I'm not serious

[Edited 2007-01-05 22:16:43]
Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs!
 
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ERJ170
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:14 am

2 questions here...

1. Will Delta start using some of there 757 for international routes?

2. Will Delta start doing some P2P international service?

Just wondering the possibilities...
Aiming High and going far..
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4536
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
DeltaDAWG From United States, joined May 2006, 282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted Fri Jan 5 2007 17:55:33 UTC+1 (4 hours 11 minutes 30 secs ago) and read 2427 times:


I can't see them removing the widebodies from ATL-LAX/LAS/MCO & JAX. Also, they now are running a T7 from ATL-JFK, but of course this is a leg of JFK-BOM.

Especially, MCO & LAX will stay widebody, cannot see it any other way.

also there is a T7 on ATL-LAX
0189 ATL LAX 1030A 1230P DELTA 777
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
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airzim
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Monorail (Reply 35):
And just where do they expect to find the capacity to replace all these domestic widebodies? A quick look at today's timetable shows from ATL: 11 767s to MCO, 6 767s to LAX (the 777 runs tomorrow), 5 767s to TPA, 4 767s to FLL, 4 767s to SLC, 3 767s to SFO, 3 767s to LAS. If you cut all 763 and 764 domestic flying, you're going to have a massive hole in your system. And what are they proposing to take it's place? They have to have something lined up. Today if you take the 76's off ATL-MCO you're left with 1 ERJ and 2 757's. Is that all they plan on flying to MCO afterwards? If not, what do they plan on sending there? What about the west coast destinations? Where do they plan on finding the aircraft to replace the 767's if they even want let's say a third of the original capacity on the MCO route (and how realistic is it to believe ATL will give up on MCO like that with a reduction that big)? Unless planes start growing on trees there's going to be a disconnect. I too have to call on this.

Well maybe the fact that DL is in bankruptcy tells you that running all these widebodies around the system isn't the smartest things to do. Everyone keeps hoping that Delta has to remain exactly the same, but grow internationally and just emerge bigger and stronger after slashing costs. Not likely. There is so much amateurish analysis on this site it really has to make you laugh. Case on point, comments above.

Where do they plan on finding the aircraft to replace the 767's? I don't know maybe 737's and 757's? Given that fact that all the other major's have swapped out widebodies on their networks except for aircraft positioning may tell you something. Maybe it works?

And while you all can bitch and moan about how uncomfortable 737's are flying for 6 hours, nobody is willing to pay more to fly a 767. But filling a 737 with even or potentially higher yields and certainly lower cost is much better for the airline than flying around expensive heavy 767's on two hour segments.

Contrary to the 8th grade airline management strategy on this site, the market share approach to profitability doesn't work. Everyone keeps talking about full 767's to Florida markets, but do you know what they yields look like on those markets? Do you have any idea how expensive it is to run 767-300's on those segments? You can fill flights all day long to Florida, but it doesn't mean you're going to make any money.

That is Airline Management 101. Looks like someone in Delta's management is finally making some smart decisions.



WorldTraveler

Still talking, but saying nothing
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4431
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 42):
And while you all can bitch and moan about how uncomfortable 737's are flying for 6 hours, nobody is willing to pay more to fly a 767

I would if the flight were more than 3 hours.

Certain markets need the wide bodies, namely the West Coast. Not so sure about Florida as much, but on some of the routes, they fill widebodies up from Florida-ATL.
It is what it is...
 
monorail
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 42):
Well maybe the fact that DL is in bankruptcy tells you that running all these widebodies around the system isn't the smartest things to do.

I agree, there has to be something they're doing wrong to put them in the bankruptcy situation they're facing. However, I'm quite convinced that the proliferation of heavies on their Florida routes is one of the things they're doing RIGHT. DL has liked Florida for quite some time. I'll even go so far as to say the Florida operation may be their most sucessful domestic operation (save maybe ATL-LAX) for these reasons: When you can sustain 10+ widebodies a day to one city on a 75 minute flight for as long as they have (for YEARS and YEARS), with the loads they have boasted (and I'm sure there has to be some cargo in the mix as well) you're doing something right. They don't run 10 767's a day for the sake of it, they'd already be sending MCO's widebodies overseas (and they would have done so a long time ago!) if they thought they'd perform better over there at the expense of less domestic capacity. Their presence may be fading in Florida, though they do not have as enormous a presence in MCO now that WN has jumped them in traffic, but a reduction in the scale proposed by the original poster would simply be catastrophic.

[Edited 2007-01-05 22:28:09]
Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs!
 
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AA777223
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:12 am

RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
Over three years I had something like 34 free tickets.

That's great if you can actually use them. Have you ever tried using a free ticket on DL. I tried once, and I had to wait until exactly midnight, 365 days in advance to find 3 seats on the same flight, eligible for free ticket travel ANYWHERE in the DL network. Not a single flight anywhere else in the world DL flies had 3 seats on it for one full year.
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4536
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:32 am

There is one reason DL is in BK its called Leo F. Mullin.
Its not what DL is doing now. What Dl is doing will get them out of BK. Just remember DL should be out of BK in April!!
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
san747
Posts: 4344
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RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 27):
The West Coast: LAX (especially), SFO, LAS, SEA, SLC, and SAN



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 11):
The Non-ER 763s will continue to fly domestic.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
DL mgmt has specifically stated that DL will have a domestic widebody fleet.



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 38):
That statement about widebodies is incorrect. The 24 non-ER 767-300s will continue to fly strictly domestically and to the Caribbean and Latin America.

Thank God... I had a real scare when I first read the beginning of the thread... DL 767s are about all us San Diegans have anymore...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting San747 (Reply 47):
Thank God... I had a real scare when I first read the beginning of the thread... DL 767s are about all us San Diegans have anymore...

Well DL will discontinue 767 service to SAN for about a month in March and April. They will return 3x daily from ATL-SAN-ATL in the end of April, however.

Jeremy
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: All DL Widebodies To Go International

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:13 am

While some people ignorantly think DL putting widebodiesin Florida was foolish, I'll remind you that DL was THE most profitable airline in the world in 1999, the year the began taking 764s in domestic configuration as replacements for its world's largest fleet of L1011s. DL's strategy of pumping traffic to Florida is EXACTLY what made it so profitable in 1999.

In the post 9/11 environmnet as few Florida markets were left w/o low fare competitors, it didn't make sense for DL to continue to fly massive numbers of widebodies on their domestic system. But that doesn't mean it was wrong at the time it was implemented. The strategy had to change but when you consider that DL has moved over a dozen 767s to int'l use and is only half-way there, you have to appreciate the scope of DL's transformation.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 27):
There are two areas where they will not remove widebodies:

The West Coast: LAX (especially), SFO, LAS, SEA, SLC, and SAN

Florida: MCO, FLL, TPA

In addition to Hawaii, I think that is correct. You won't see the number of widebody flights that these markets have from ATL now but these markets are very likely to continue to have widebody service.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
The need for US transit visas by citizens of many countries has made the US much less attractive as a connecting hub between non-US origins/destinations than it was prior to 9/11 when transit visa requirements were less restrictive.

most Europeans, Japanese, and S. Koreans don't need transit visas to connect through the US. There is a huge market of people from these countries going to Latin America.

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