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ERJ170
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NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:27 am

Read it here.

Looks like they are looking at pulling (or preventing, however you want to look at it) traffic from JFK and BOS. They consider shorter customs, less traffic, and potential feed form partners (CO and DL?).

Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

From reviewing what was stated, this could be done at a lot of airports on the east coast and short midwest.. including CMH, BNA, PIT, RDU, IND, etc.. The possibilities are endless if they are including potential feed from CO and DL.
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bobnwa
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

Don't forget that NWA is also counting on feed from the other side of the Atlantic via AMS. If this route is like every other trans-atlantic route the Europeans will outnumber the American originating passengers
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 1):
Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

Don't forget that NWA is also counting on feed from the other side of the Atlantic via AMS. If this route is like every other trans-atlantic route the Europeans will outnumber the American originating passengers

I'm sure this will be the case... the europeans outnumber us...

As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
chrisa330
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.

Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 3):
Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC

Yep

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.

Domestic 757's have 31-33" pitch.

Two months ago the flights were already pretty well booked for July.
 
Indy
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 3):
Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC

I believe you are correct. Which in this case would make the NW 757 one of the most comfortable coach seats on a transatlantic flight.
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SESGDL
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:00 am

I think their whole theory is flawed. The demand just isn't there and even with feed from AMS connections, BDL-AMS isn't going to pull any passengers from NYC or BOS. NYC-AMS O&D is enough to support at least 5-6 daily flights, and that isn't going to change with new service between Bradley and Schiphol. Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

Jeremy
 
gigneil
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:47 am

No. They think people from BDL that drive to NYC and BOS will stay closer to home.

NS
 
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:58 am

Its mean to pull people from CT, RI, Western MA, and the Northern Suburbs of NYC who currently use the NYC Airport/BOS, but are actually much closer to BDL. Since BDL lacks Trans-Atlantic service, they will drive to the other airports. BDL is a very affluent market with a lot of corporate heaquarters in CT.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
The demand just isn't there and even with feed from AMS connections, BDL-AMS isn't going to pull any passengers from NYC or BOS

that would be why some flights are already sold out or near it.
 
PVD757
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

they don't think that at all. People who are reside in and are currently driving from the BDL catchment area to JFK or BOS might now choose to use the closer option - BDL.

BTW, you'd be surprised how much traffic to certain markets are leaked from places like BDL and PVD to BOS or NYC...
 
centrair
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:27 pm

You have a very economically mobile population in CT. (per capita income $43,173 in 2003 making it the richest in the nation). I read that on average 108 passengers per-day traveling on NW to Europe start their voyage at BDL. Now you bring in those taking the train or a shuttle bus to JFK, EWR or BOS and have them depart from BDL and you have one loaded 757. If it is successful, I bet NW will look at either bringing in a 2nd 757 to AMS or even adding a new destination from BDL like CDG or LGW (not sure of the rules on that one).
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chrisnh
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:48 pm

The point is a good one: You're talking about ONE 757 for goodness sakes. A 707 with two fewer engines. This is hardly a tough plane to fill, so if BDL does lose the service down the road due to low traffic they will have no one to blame but themselves. Anything from Worcester west in Massachusetts is worthy of tapping. BDL will be utterly laughed at if they can't make ONE SINGLE 757 work. Put another way, they shouldn't beat their chests with pride if the route does well, either. This isn't a tough sell...or shouldn't be made to seem like one.

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ERJ170
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:54 pm

Is BDL the test market? Meaning if BDL can make it work, would NW test AMS routes form other mid-tier locations?

Just wondering..
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airbazar
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Looks like they are looking at pulling (or preventing, however you want to look at it) traffic from JFK and BOS. They consider shorter customs, less traffic, and potential feed form partners (CO and DL?).

That's obvious. If you live North of East of Hartford BOS is your only option to Europe. What strikes me is not that they will fill a daily 757 from DBL, that's a no brainer but that they think BOS is underserved because they're increasing BOS from 1 to 2 daily flights to AMS in addition to all the daily passengers they're expecting to "pull" from BOS to BDL. In one fell swoop they will tripple the number of non-stop flights between NE and AMS and nearly tripple the number of seats. That's a huge increase in capacity for such a relatively small New England player.
 
zrs70
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:53 am

As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL? Most international C class passengers will expect this.
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ERJ170
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 15):
As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL?

IF BDL has a Delta or Continental Room, then NW won't need one.. they will just use their SkyTeam partner's room..
Aiming High and going far..
 
stirling
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

I think it is the fringe...sure, no one from Manhattan or Brooklyn is going to go to Hartford, but I know some chaps over in Carmel, NY who will. From there into the city is a nightmare traffic wise, now the trick is letting people know there is an alternative European gateway.

If the folks within 75 miles know about it, it will be successful, bottom line.
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KPWMSpotter
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:37 am

Whether this works or not, I'm all for it.

Northwest is taking a risk that needs to be taken, moving from their traditional Hub and Spoke system to something a little more direct. I know that AMS is still an NWA hub, but regardless, it is allowing a good number of people to avoid the mecca of Trans-Atlantic flights at JFK or BOS.
There are markets like this all around the US domestic and international system, be it the Florida markets from New England, or some trans-cons to smaller cities on either coast. These routes have plenty of people that want to get from point A to point B without having to stop in points C, D, or E. There's money there, they just need to take a risk to tap into it...
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RL757PVD
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:42 am

The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...
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Indy
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 19):
The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...

Nonstop saves time and time is money.
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RL757PVD
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 20):

Nonstop saves time and time is money.

Agreed...but BOS/JFK offer more flexible schedule (dozens of flights and times) to save time...which saves money... also other airports have more business anemities in addition to many flights. So again, will the business travel sacrifice flexible non-stop times and aircraft, to use a more convenient airport. It wil be a very interesting test, if it works perhaps PVD could be a "Phase II" then long tern perhaps an airport like SWF (10+ years...)
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
PVD757
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 12):
This isn't a tough sell...or shouldn't be made to seem like one.

300K in airport incentives sure make it easier too!!

Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 18):
There are markets like this all around the US domestic and international system, be it the Florida markets from New England, or some trans-cons to smaller cities on either coast. These routes have plenty of people that want to get from point A to point B without having to stop in points C, D, or E. There's money there, they just need to take a risk to tap into it...

I couldn't agree more

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
they think BOS is underserved because they're increasing BOS from 1 to 2 daily flights to AMS in addition to all the daily passengers they're expecting to "pull" from BOS to BDL.

If NW really wanted to capture the New England market as a whole, they would have put the 2nd BOS flight in PVD. The only way to combat leakage is to blanket a region that has airports close enough to pull from one another. A 757 in BDL and PVD with the 330 in BOS would protect NW from just about anyone trying to do something else to Europe from PVD or BDL as a way to penetrate the New England market.

Not to mention PVD's FIS is really nice, well designed, and integrated with the main terminal.
 
SR 103
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 19):
The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...

Continental seems to have proved it works just fine. As long as NW goes through with the new version of WBC on the 757, it should do all right. AA and US do not offer a premium product for any real comparison however.

According to the current seat maps, NW's 757's will offer the same amount of legroom in World Business Class as Delta's 763's and 777's in BusinessElite. In fact the WBC seat on the 757 will have a 19.5" seat width which is a full inch wider than DL's BusinessElite seat on the 763.

I say business travelers are only sacrificing flexible times rather than widebody seat comfort.

SR 103
 
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 15):
As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL? Most international C class passengers will expect this.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
IF BDL has a Delta or Continental Room, then NW won't need one.. they will just use their SkyTeam partner's room..

The only VIP lounge at BDL is the USAirways Club, and it is in the "center" pier, not the east pier where NW is. I am sure there is room in east to build a club, but not sure it's necessary for the 16 pax per day who might fly business. BDL's east pier is very nice and there's a lot of lightly used gates so plenty of room to spread out. Course, WN is also in east...
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burnsie28
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
I bet NW will look at either bringing in a 2nd 757 to AMS or even adding a new destination from BDL like CDG or LGW (not sure of the rules on that one).

They announced that they hope to add a bigger aircraft out of BDL, to me meaning A332 or so.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
No. They think people from BDL that drive to NYC and BOS will stay closer to home.

they are discounting this flight too, I believe for connections, because when I was looking at flights to europe for this summer, more than a few times, AMS-BDL-MSP was cheaper than AMS-MSP for my return, so maybe they will just fill in whatever they have to with connecting traffic?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
airbazar
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 26):
they are discounting this flight too, I believe for connections, because when I was looking at flights to europe for this summer, more than a few times, AMS-BDL-MSP was cheaper than AMS-MSP for my return, so maybe they will just fill in whatever they have to with connecting traffic?

That's not saying much. You're comparing a non-stop with a one-stop flight.
The passengers who bought just AMS-BDL will likely pay more for it than you on your AMS-BDL-MSP.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:29 am

the flight is not going to be convenient for connecting pax at all since the flight will arrive to the international arrivals building which is completely disconnected from the main terminal complex. I hope that the airport would run some kind of shuttle between the terminals, though that'd be the only time of day that shuttle would have to run.

IMHO, building a seperate stand alone INTL arrivals facility was a mistake. Esp since all connection flights and rental car facilities are out of the other terminal located 1/4 mile away. Passengers who park in the garage for the departure, will be wishing they parked in the surface lot on arrival. the FIS facility should have been integrated into the existing complex.
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Indy
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 28):
IMHO, building a seperate stand alone INTL arrivals facility was a mistake. Esp since all connection flights and rental car facilities are out of the other terminal located 1/4 mile away. Passengers who park in the garage for the departure, will be wishing they parked in the surface lot on arrival. the FIS facility should have been integrated into the existing complex.

Wow. I thought IND was the only major airport with such a pathetic international arrivals arrangement. Please tell me BDL at least has a jetway on the building? International arrivals at IND does not. I hope we are alone in that respect.
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jfktowerfan
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Please tell me BDL at least has a jetway on the building?

Yes there is a jetway. The building is only 2 years old or so. I can't imagine that it is to shabby, but there is no connection to the main terminal.

Corey
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azstagecoach
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Please tell me BDL at least has a jetway on the building? International arrivals at IND does not. I hope we are alone in that respect.

TUS also. Though with 1 AM turboprop it hardly matters for now.
 
airbazar
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 28):
IMHO, building a seperate stand alone INTL arrivals facility was a mistake. Esp since all connection flights and rental car facilities are out of the other terminal located 1/4 mile away. Passengers who park in the garage for the departure, will be wishing they parked in the surface lot on arrival. the FIS facility should have been integrated into the existing complex.

Wow. I thought IND was the only major airport with such a pathetic international arrivals arrangement. Please tell me BDL at least has a jetway on the building? International arrivals at IND does not. I hope we are alone in that respect.

Geez, both of those make BOS look great. And here I was thinking out setup here at BOS was the worse ever  Smile
 
RL757PVD
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:34 am

I hate to sounds biased (even though i live in ATL now) but PVD's is a great set up for a medium suzed airport, its on he lower level directly in the center of the terminal and exits directly into the baggage claim lobby for all of the domestic flights. It can process over 200 passengers per hour with room to double that.

large airports can have stand-alone INTL facilities but airports like PVD and BDL, even upwards of RDU, they should be part of the main terminal complex that provides all of the passenger anemeities.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
RL757PVD
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:42 am

For those wanting a visual reference http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0593081/L/

It is the small box with the jetway with what looks like an A320 parked on it.

the terminal part that you can see is only used by AA, with the terminal area what other airlines including NW use being out of the picture by about 500 feet.

[Edited 2007-01-08 22:54:59]
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ERJ170
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RE: NW Stand On BDL-AMS

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 33):
even upwards of RDU, they should be part of the main terminal complex that provides all of the passenger anemeities.

RDU is kinda... different, cause RDU has 2 seperate terminals. So only one of the terminals have customs facilities.. so all airlines would have to plane/deplane in one terminal, even if their regular gate is in the other terminal.. and that's the way it's going to be after the renovations are complete...
Aiming High and going far..