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mariner
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F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:20 am

Within 50 feet of being ugly:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4957824

"A Frontier Airlines plane landing at Denver International Airport this morning came within 50 feet of hitting a small aircraft that had "inadvertently entered the runway" in front of it, the National Transportation Safety Board said."

I'm not sure how the charter "inadvertently" entered the runway.

But great work by the Frontier pilots.

mariner

[Edited 2007-01-05 23:21:36]
aeternum nauta
 
adam1115
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:13 am

Maybe I don't understand how this stuff works, but don't big airports have ground radar? How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 1):
How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???

I'm not sure. I have been told what happened, but I'm sure there are others here who can explain it better.

I believe the Key Lime aircraft "overshot its parameters".

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ytib
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:27 am

Denver does have ground radar, and just as the controllers warned the pilots they noticed the aircraft on their own. It is included in the link provided by Mariner.
 
ATCme
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:30 am

Maybe the radar showed the runway clear when the F9 jet was cleared to land but the Key Lime somehow missed a hold short line or instruction.

ATCme spin 
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ordryan28
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):

But great work by the Frontier pilots.

indeed...fantastic work. Could have been fatal...nice job Frontier crew!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):

I believe the Key Lime aircraft "overshot its parameters".

 checkmark 

seems logical..
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
airtran737
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:35 am

I have said it before and will say it again. We are getting nearer and nearer to a disaster. Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ATCme
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.

How about that incident in the canary Islands with the 2 747s, or the one at LAX in 1991 between US Airways and SkyWest or Comair or the one in FLL between US Airways and SkyWest or Comair (the one thats not involved in the LAX).

This could have been a lot worse, luckily both controller and pilot caught it.

ATCme spin 
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jsquared
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:00 am

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/05/close.call.ap/index.html

Headline news on CNN...

How often do near misses like this occur? Any in recent memory that have been this close?
 
Bicoastal
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
I have said it before and will say it again. We are getting nearer and nearer to a disaster. Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.

If you can't accept the fact that there will be accidents, no matter what we do to prevent them, then you shouldn't fly or be involved in aviation. It's human nature to make mistakes, occasionally fatal. In addition, machines break, computers fail, systems go bad. We live our daily lives making and taking calculated risks. It's no different with aviation today. Disasters will happen. It's a matter of when, not if.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 1):
How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???

Most likely pilot error by the aircraft on the ground. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I understand it was snowing in DEN at the time.

Bravo Zulu and super flying by the F9 crew being able to abort the landing with such a low altitude, Yikes...50 feet with a A319 descending at 300 MPH in snow.

If the DIA ground radar only pinged the Frontier flight at 50 feet. They need to fix that!! With such a low altitude they would have been just over the runway correct?
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Greg76
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:18 pm

 
jetjeanes
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:43 pm

I think if he landed at 300 mph on a snowy runway, he wouldnt had much chance even if the other plane was not on the ground
i can see for 80 miles
 
adam1115
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting Ytib (Reply 3):
Denver does have ground radar, and just as the controllers warned the pilots they noticed the aircraft on their own. It is included in the link provided by Mariner.

Well, I did read the Denver Post article, but came here because I didn't trust a Denver Newspaper as an expert in aviation.. I've seen time and time again members of this forum criticize people for trusting 'the media', so I didn't immediately trust the source...

I guess more specifically, if a plane enters an active runway where a jet has been cleared to land, ATC doesn't know prior to them coming within 50 feet of each other? FIFTY FEET??? That is VERY close...
 
Electech6299
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 13):
I guess more specifically, if a plane enters an active runway where a jet has been cleared to land, ATC doesn't know prior to them coming within 50 feet of each other? FIFTY FEET??? That is VERY close...

50 feet is the closest distance the craft came to each other, as estimated from radar. If the craft were 50 feet apart when they discovered the conflict, this would be a much different story

No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

Now if the crew was warned by ATC only 4 or 5 seconds early, at around 1,500 feet out, then sometime before that ATC was alerted to the Metroliner's movement in some manner by ground radar, recognized the conflict, decided on a response and called Frontier. That can take another 2-4 seconds on a good day.

Putting this all together, we have about a 10 second string of events that narrowly averted disaster. Yet if this had happened 10 seconds earlier, the Frontier flight would have aborted over a mile out and we might have gotten a 2-line blurb in the paper, if anything. 10 seconds is about all the grace there is in modern ATC operations at a busy airport. That's why pilots have to know ATC procedures at the airport and follow them to the letter.

edit: Key Lime confusion (don't ask...)

[Edited 2007-01-06 06:58:18]

[Edited 2007-01-06 07:00:22]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
BrandonB
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting JSquared (Reply 8):
How often do near misses like this occur? Any in recent memory that have been this close?

LAX had a very close call like this a couple months ago.
 
tsaord
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:02 pm

I heard about this on AM 780 today. Two days ago I heard something about the FAA investing all these near misses more in dept than ever before since there seems to be one too many. Someone from the union I assume of ATC blamed the FAA/DOT on poor working conditions and veterans retiring. Honestly thats what I heard on the radio from the guy who gave a statement.

But I'm glad all turned out well. But I hope aviation safety improves with these "near misses" before an accident occurs that cost people their lives.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
Electech6299
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 16):
I hope aviation safety improves with these "near misses" before an accident occurs that cost people their lives.

In this case there was nothing the FAA could have done, the ATC complaints about FAA have been going on ad nauseum but that's not related to this thread or this incident.

Based on the press accounts, the Metroliner cargo jet was in the wrong place because the pilot put it there against ATC's direction. I am curious as to whether the taxiway signs were clearly visible- or were they covered with snow? Any Denver A-netters that could help?
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
AirEMS
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:19 am

A stupid question: When do you turn on TCAS? and does it work on the ground?

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 14):
No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

What no Airbus Afterburners? What fun is that?

Great job by the F9 Pilots no matter how much time they had.

-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
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Goodbye
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:43 am

"Near hit".

A "near miss" means you didn't miss it.

If I "nearly missed" my bus, it means I didn't miss it.
 
F9Animal
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:47 am

F9 flight crews are excellent. I am glad that the situation came out good. There needs to be more focus on the airports to prevent runway incursions like this.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
KPWMSpotter
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:55 am

How close to the runway is the taxiway they intended to make a turn on?
With all of the blizzards in Denver as of recently, I could see how the pilots of the Metroliner could miss a turn or not see a sign in the snow.

I'd still put fault on the Metroliner's crew though, they did taxi onto the active and all. The ATC could have seen them on their intended course as they cleared the Frontier jet to land, and not noticed their deviation until the A319 had made its go-around...
I reject your reality and substitute my own...
 
cptspeaking
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 14):
No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

This is a secondary reason for flaps. The drag created by the flaps (and gear for that matter) coupled with approach speeds requires a higher thrust setting, which makes the spool time of a turbine significantly less...

Your CptSpeaking  wave 
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KarlB737
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:06 am

Courtesy: KUSA-TV

Planes Miss Each Other By 50 Feet At DIA

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=62680

Video Report:

http://www.9news.com/video/player.aspx?aid=27889&bw=
 
trojanAE
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20):
F9 flight crews are excellent. I am glad that the situation came out good. There needs to be more focus on the airports to prevent runway incursions like this.

I remember reading a recent NTSB study on runway incursions and this seems to definitely be a main focus point for them as one of the main dangers in modern day aviation. The article featured an interesting clip of a reconstruction of an event in which a US Airways aircraft was lost in the fog and came close to entering an active runway as another aircraft was taking off. The controller was quite pissed...
"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
 
Electech6299
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 23):
Courtesy: KUSA-TV



Quote:
Experts say the alarm system in the Frontier plane was a lifesaver in this situation.

What alarm system is that, the TECAS? Or the stick shaker?  Wink
Sounds like they are claiming the AMASS system that alerted ATC was on the Frontier plane. Somebody's confused...The pilots saw the plane and executed a missed approach, and ATC was alerted at the same time by ground radar. Weather at the time claims 1/2 mile visibility, so they might have been even further out than 1/4 mile when they saw the plane.

Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 22):
This is a secondary reason for flaps. The drag created by the flaps (and gear for that matter) coupled with approach speeds requires a higher thrust setting, which makes the spool time of a turbine significantly less...

Hmmm- thanks, that makes sense. So do you think my estimation is accurate- Going from descent w/landing config to TOGA thrust, would the engines spool up enough in 4 or 5 seconds to maintain altitude? Or would it be less?

As many have said, excellent work by the pilots.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
GoDIA
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
If the DIA ground radar only pinged the Frontier flight at 50 feet. They need to fix that!! With such a low altitude they would have been just over the runway correct?

Actually, the radar warned the F9 crew at the same time the crew got a visual on the Metroliner...and that the crew saw the other plane when the broke through the cloud base. So, that means they were AT ABOUT 600 FEET when they initiated the missed approach.

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 12):

JetJeanes, I don't think any A319 has an approach speed of 300mph, snowy runway or not.
Military Jet Noise--the Sound of Freedom!
 
atomother
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:38 am

Maybe if Key Lime Air paid their pilots a good wage instead of taking any bum off the street that can't get a job anywhere else and decides to buy his job, then Key Lime wouldn't have problems like this.

It seems like every year they lose a plane or two. Didn't they have a few flat spins that resulted in the loss of an aircraft or two and a few lives? I know they had a few that ate each other up on the ramp at DEN a few years ago.

http://www.keylimeair.com/Rates.asp

For 350 hours in a Metroliner, they expect their pilots to pay them $24,500. That is what the company should be paying the pilots... It's a shame people get this concept backwards. Maybe McDonalds should try this strategy? Pay to be allowed to flip burgers!

They scary thing is, these PFT companies are now putting other companies at risk so they can make a buck. Hopefully any airline that interviews these PFTers in the future gives them the boot as soon as they see the logbook with PFT and PFJ entires in it.
 
GoDIA
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RE: F9 - Near Miss At DIA

Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:46 am

Well, with a name like "Key Lime Air," what can you expect? Maybe the should stick to making pies!
Military Jet Noise--the Sound of Freedom!