keesje
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AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:39 am


AirAsia X plans to launch in July with services from Kuala Lumpur to Tianjin and Hangzhou in China and from Kuala Lumpur to the UK, says Fernandes.

He says the Malaysian government has granted AirAsia X traffic rights to Birmingham and Manchester, and that it was looking at granting rights to London.

Fernandes says they are considering the A330-300 and Boeing 777-300ER for AirAsia X, which will operate only one aircraft type. He describes Airbus’ A330 replacement, the A350XWB, as the perfect aircraft for AirAsia X. However, he adds that they are first looking at the A330 as the A350XWB is a new aircraft type under development and will only be available in later years.


- First of all deciding to use a a333 or 773ER for a start up is pretty ambitious
- The A333 is a great machine but operating to the UK from KUL seems a bit of a stretch..

Wouldn´t the A332 be a better idea?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+possible+A330s+as+it+unveils.html


Fernandes

[Edited 2007-01-06 00:44:46] getting the picture takes a few minutes..

[Edited 2007-01-06 00:45:56]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ENU
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Fernandes = the guy on the right
Seems to be Christiano Ronaldo to me...

EDIT: This post no longer makes sense, as the picture referred to was removed.

[Edited 2007-01-06 00:49:37]
 
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Stitch
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:45 am

Great Circle shows MAN-KUL at 6640nm with ETOPS-180 which is 1000nm over an A333's range at max payload, so I am guessing they're going to be flying little in the way of cargo on these birds...

I agree the A332 would provide a better initial product in terms of performance and would allow them to grow up to an A358X or A359X over the next 7-10 years.

On the flip side, while MAN-KUL is a cakewalk for a loaded 773ER, they first have to load the 773ER...  Wink
 
keesje
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
while MAN-KUL is a cakewalk for a loaded 773ER

Not loaded, also payload restricted & KUL = hot http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/777rsec3.pdf , slide 5
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B742
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:54 am

Also note, another few arcticles have said that KUL-LON flights will be flown via DXB, so therefore no problems with the capabilities of the A333.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
- First of all deciding to use a a333 or 773ER for a start up is pretty ambitious
- The A333 is a great machine but operating to the UK from KUL seems a bit of a stretch..

Wouldn´t the A332 be a better idea?

I have to agree with your first and third points. The A333 or 77W is realy ambitious to begin with.
The A333 is no problem via DXB as some articles have noted.
I have to agree, I think the A332 would be best suited for the new routes. The 767 would also be good, but the A332 would be better due to AirAsia's current and future fleet of A320's.

I have to say I am worried for Malaysia Airlines with this news.

AirAsia have said they want to introduce KCH-PER flights when they receive more A320's. Maybe they will enter the kangaroo service from KLIA with AirAsia X.

Rob!  wave 
 
keesje
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 4):
The A333 is no problem via DXB as some articles have noted.

Thnx, missed that. If a stop in DBX is scheduled everything changes. Passenger won´t be demanding anyway, just price driven folks.
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gilesdavies
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:27 am

There is a huge difference in size between an A330-300 and a 777-300ER.

I don't see how they can be comparing the two. If they are interested in an aircraft the size of the 777-300ER, Airbus can only really offer the A340-600 as a competitor.

An A330-300 is vaguely comparitive to a 777-200 but need to be looking at an A340-300 to match the 772's range.

Would be great to see additional Asian routes from BHX and MAN.
 
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:08 am

Fernandes was interviewed on CNBC yesterday on which aircraft he might pick. He said both were in the running now, but indicated that if it was the A333, it would be an interim measure to an A350XWB order.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 4):
Also note, another few arcticles have said that KUL-LON flights will be flown via DXB, so therefore no problems with the capabilities of the A333.

Aye. At that point they don't need the range of the A332.
 
CoolSkyGuy
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:17 pm

there is certain level of risk to have all Airbuses for Air Asia: capacity, quality and cost...
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Not loaded, also payload restricted & KUL = hot http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/777rsec3.pdf , slide 5

While the range requirement for KUL-MAN will restrict the 773ER payload to less than the MZFW level, I'm do sure why you threw in the word "hot".

Since the TOFL at KUL is 13K'+, the full MTOW of 775K lb will be available year round.

So far as the 773ER's payload capability on the route concerned, SIN-MAN is even further and SQ seems pleased.
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behramjee
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:14 pm

I recall also reading that they want to fly KUL-ATQ alongside the UK and China services.

UK services would work preferably if theyre nonstop from KUL and not via DXB or XYZ city. For a nonstop UK-KUL flight, the A 333 is out of the question but the A 332 could perhaps fly the route nonstop. KUL-BHX/MAN is 10,700 KM and the A 332 can supposely fly 11,700KM nonstop with a full payload according to Airbus.

But even with a widebody like the A 332, it would be very difficult to fill a KUL-MAN/BHX nonstop flight year round (on O&D traffic alone) and may not be profitable if the main objective is to provide dirt cheap low yielding fares! They need to have services to Australia & AKL from KUL to support their UK flights especially.

What I would seriously advise Air Asia is to establish a "mini hub" of sorts in DXB and fly via DXB with 5th freedom rights to niche markets in Europe and Africa that have seen in the past good "leisure demand" on MH services to KUL. There are cities in EU that EK dont fly to nonstop from DXB and alongwith the 5th freedom traffic, Air AsiaX can also tap the Malaysia bound tourist traffic + 6th freedom via KUL to Austral-Asia.

Cities that I feel would benefit from such services are :

KUL-DXB-CPH
KUL-DXB-MAD
KUL-DXB-GVA
KUL-DXB-DME
KUL-DXB-BRU
KUL-DXB-ATH

[Edited 2007-01-06 07:26:17]
 
baron95
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
There is a huge difference in size between an A330-300 and a 777-300ER.

I don't see how they can be comparing the two.

Huh??!!???

What is currently the largest, state of the art, best selling available twin-engine widebody from Boeing? 777-300ER.

What is currently the largest, state of the art, best selling available twin-engine widebody from Airbus? A330-300.

And you think it makes no sense comparing the two?

Only on A.net do people insist that only airplanes of exaclty the same size can be compared. Geez.

Having said that, I agree that it is too much airplane to start a route. Get a used 767-300ER or even a used A330-200 and walk before you run. On the other hand, with all the narrow bodies they have on order, if they can afford a 77W, they should have no problem feeding a hub to fill the plane.
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zeke
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Airpearl (Reply 7):
Fernandes was interviewed on CNBC yesterday on which aircraft he might pick. He said both were in the running now, but indicated that if it was the A333, it would be an interim measure to an A350XWB order.

They are already showing a 330 in TV commercials.
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solnabo
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:34 pm

@ Baron95

The most popular twin today from A is the 330-200, you can´t compare it with B777-300ER, pax and cargo

Micke//  

[Edited 2007-01-06 11:42:31]
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 11):
But even with a widebody like the A 332, it would be very difficult to fill a KUL-MAN/BHX nonstop flight year round (on O&D traffic alone)

That is why I think the stop en-route is vital. BHX-KUL, for example, wouldn't work non stop I dont think but BHX-Amritsar(for example)-KUL, traffic rights permitting might
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keno
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selecti

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 11):
What I would seriously advise Air Asia is to establish a "mini hub" of sorts in DXB and fly via DXB with 5th freedom rights to niche markets in Europe and Africa

Note that AirAsia does not have the govt permission to operate KUL-DXB as it is already served by MH. The most likely enroute stop would be SHJ, which itself is the LCC hub of Arabia.

SHJ would be a great stopover point between KUL and Europe considering the high demand on both ways from SHJ i.e. Dubai is popular with British holidaymakers while Gulf Arabs travel to Malaysia in their thousands especially in the summer months. Compare this with ATQ, whose demand is mostly to/from UK. Malaysia never have had strong links with the Punjab as most Malaysian-born Indians originate from Tamil Nadu in the south.

[Edited 2007-01-06 12:43:39]
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting CoolSkyGuy (Reply 9):
there is certain level of risk to have all Airbuses for Air Asia: capacity, quality and cost...

I don't see how Air Asia would face "quality risks" by choosing Airbus.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
What is currently the largest, state of the art, best selling available twin-engine widebody from Airbus? A330-300.

That would be the A332.


PH
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WINGS
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selecti

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:47 pm

Ooooops.

Sorry folks double post.

Regards,
Wings

[Edited 2007-01-06 12:49:06]
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WINGS
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selecti

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 17):

I don't see how Air Asia would face "quality risks" by choosing Airbus.

I was thinking just about the same thing. Maybe some one might inform SQ,QF and LH about that quality issues before they take those A330's recently ordered.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 17):
Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
What is currently the largest, state of the art, best selling available twin-engine widebody from Airbus? A330-300.

That would be the A332.

Well he did say largest which is the A330-300.  Wink

Regards,
Wings
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PlaneHunter
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
Well he did say largest which is the A330-300.

True, I somehow overread "largest". But it doesn't change much anyway - A333 and B77W are also totally different in terms of range.


PH
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David_itl
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
On the flip side, while MAN-KUL is a cakewalk for a loaded 773ER, they first have to load the 773ER...

MH carried between 8000 and 10000 passengers a month on their 4 weekly 744s, so if call it roughly 18 times in a month, we're talking 222 to 277 passengers per flight.
 
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flylku
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
Only on A.net do people insist that only airplanes of exaclty the same size can be compared. Geez.

Sorry Baron95 but my first reaction to the comparison was that, on the surface, it appeared a bit odd. We don't know all the factors they are considering.

Take it easy on your fellow A.net's. We're just here to have a little friendly aviation banter.
...are we there yet?
 
AT502B
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:43 am

I think this decision will come down to Production Slots. How soon can Boeing deliver B777's and Airbus A330's?
If AirAsia wanted to wait they'd be choosing between the A350 and B787.
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EI321
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting AT502B (Reply 23):
I think this decision will come down to Production Slots. How soon can Boeing deliver B777's and Airbus A330's?

roughly the same time frame.

Quoting AT502B (Reply 23):
If AirAsia wanted to wait they'd be choosing between the A350 and B787.

Exactly, looks like the A330 will be followed by the A350.
 
cpairDC10
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
On the flip side, while MAN-KUL is a cakewalk for a loaded 773ER, they first have to load the 773ER...

This should not be a problem as they are charging 40 pounds for a ticket !!!!!
 
trex8
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 25):
This should not be a problem as they are charging 40 pounds for a ticket !!!!!

how can you possibly break even, let alone make money like that? even if you put 400 seats on that plane!
 
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:40 am

I have no idea, but there is quite a buzz in manchester about it. there was a big article in the paper about it, i have forgot to bring it with me as i was the for Xmas. 40 is the cheapest and it is suppsed to a conversion of efforts from Easyjet and jet2 together with Air asia.........i guess we will have to wait and see. I think it will be an interestiing situation at manchester airport if that happens..
 
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Stitch
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 26):
How can you possibly break even, let alone make money like that? even if you put 400 seats on that plane!

Well if you only run it for a week or two, you minimize the bleeding.  Wink

Either that or they have a really lucrative cargo deal, which would favor the 773ER since it will lift a lot more LD3s... Big grin
 
karan69
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting David_itl (Reply 21):
MH carried between 8000 and 10000 passengers a month on their 4 weekly 744s, so if call it roughly 18 times in a month, we're talking 222 to 277 passengers per flight.

Agreed mate, but do you have details on how many were O & D pax and not connecting to other MH flights to AUS/NZ SE Asia etc..

Karan
 
David_itl
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:32 am

I would imagine that most were connecting. But if this planned venture is aiming for pasengers to use KUL as a stepping stone for other flights, then they might get the same kind of results.
 
trex8
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
Either that or they have a really lucrative cargo deal, which would favor the 773ER since it will lift a lot more LD3s... 

even if they filled the whole lower hold with cargo at "normal rates" I doubt they could make it work out while still having to bear the costs of the infrastructure/personnel of carrying self loading cargo also on the same flight.I guess we'll have to see, as an introductory rate to get publicity I can see it but they can't keep it up long term while trying to pay Boeing and the gas companies while operating it
 
ikramerica
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
roughly the same time frame.

They want to start flying in 6 months.

AFAIU, 77Ws are not readily available in 5 months (need time to accept aircraft and startup)
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AirbusA6
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:01 am

The official LCC of Manchester United will now service Manchester  Wink

Seriously, the rapid growth of their network in Asia, has shown that people will fly if it's cheap enough, and many people there are more price sensitive than in the west, so having to refuel an A333 may not be too much of an issue, if they seriously uncut rival carriers. It will be interesting, if they can pinch some trade from SQ too...
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baron95
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 20):
But it doesn't change much anyway - A333 and B77W are also totally different in terms of range.

If you were an Airline executive and needed the largest readily available twin-engine airliner to fly a 5500 nm mission and were issuing an RFP, what airplanes would you expect to see on the response from Boeing and Airbus respectively? Is there anything that Airbus could have responded with other than the A330? Is there anything that Boeing would have responded with?

These 2 aircraft are natural competitors. They compete all the time with one another. It is irrelevant that one has 40 more seats and 1500nm more range than the other. If you want to have offers from both mannufacturers these are the types they have to offer.

In 1972, if you wanted an RFP for a long-haul widebody airliner for 5,500nm you'd get the 747 vs the L-1011 vs the DC-10. Who cares if the 747 had 120 more seats or could fly 1500 nm farther. Those were the types available. They competed and airlines made their decisions.

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 22):
Take it easy on your fellow A.net's. We're just here to have a little friendly aviation banter.

I'm sorry if I sounded too harsh or even abnoxious. It is just a major source of frustration that I have when on A.net, only planes of exactly the same range and exactly the same size can compete.

I can send out an RFP to fly 2500 passengers a day between SYD and SIN and Airbus may respond with 5 A380s and Boeing may respond with 10 787s. The 787 would be competing directly with the A380. Why is that so hard to understand? Any plane that can fly the mission can compete, regardless of size.
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leftwing
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:32 am

Since MH is bleeding and dying may be they lease 777 from them
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 34):
These 2 aircraft are natural competitors. They compete all the time with one another. It is irrelevant that one has 40 more seats and 1500nm more range than the other. If you want to have offers from both mannufacturers these are the types they have to offer.

They probably compete when an airline is flexible in terms of mission profile and capacity. But the B77W offers some 60-120 more seats (depending on configuration) as well as much more payload and range. An airline which requires both e.g. 300 seats in three classes and a range of 7,000 nm won't evaluate an A330. No, they definitely don't compete "all the time".


PH
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CoolSkyGuy
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:51 pm

Isn't A330-300 is a bit outdated? Or are they considering A330-200 instead? B777-300ER will be nice. One will wonder how will a B773-ER be like in AK low cost config, and definitely a big contrast to SQ's 773-ER on premium segment.
 
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zeke
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selecti

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 10):

So far as the 773ER's payload capability on the route concerned, SIN-MAN is even further and SQ seems pleased.

Are they operating them on that route ? only thought the 200ER.

The SQ aircraft (773ER) with 280 seats would not be a problem, expensive aircraft for a LCC to operate in that configuration for that range.

Non-stop flights in general are too expensive for LCCs to operate to Europe from SE Asia, the fuel required for those last few hours hits the bottom line, stopping will improve yields.

I think they will stop in the middle east, and launch around Hajj time.
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Candid76
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 33):
The official LCC of Manchester United will now service Manchester

Don't underestimate this - one of the world's most powerful sporting brands will generate serious business for Air Asia. I look forward to some serious flight discounts with my MUFC membership card!

All Air Asia have to do to make MAN a rip roaring success is offer lower fares (with a cost base to match) and offer connecting flights to Australia (as there are numerous leisure destinations within Malaysia that will attract business beyond Kuala Lumpur itself). Other destinations such as Denpasar would also go down well from MAN via KUL. It isn't a problem at all.

Quoting B742 (Reply 4):
I have to say I am worried for Malaysia Airlines with this news.

I have to say I couldn't care less what happens to MH. In business terms they should have gone bust years ago.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selecti

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting CoolSkyGuy (Reply 37):
Isn't A330-300 is a bit outdated? Or are they considering A330-200 instead?

They're identical platforms (differing only in size), so if you feel one is outdated, so would the other...  Smile

Since the routing will include a stop-over in DXB, range is not an issue, so the A333's higher capacity will offer a lower CASM then the A332.
 
CoolSkyGuy
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
They're identical platforms (differing only in size), so if you feel one is outdated, so would the other...

Since the routing will include a stop-over in DXB, range is not an issue, so the A333's higher capacity will offer a lower CASM then the A332.

Range (w/max. passengers) for A333 is 10,500 km, whilst for A332 is 12,500 km. So for KUL-LHR with the distance of 10,539km, A332 will not require a stop over in DXB, that's a big difference. But of course, A332 carries less passenger than A333.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AirAsia X Boeing 777-300ER Vs A330-300 Selection

Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
Range (w/max. passengers) for A333 is 10,500 km, whilst for A332 is 12,500 km. So for KUL-LHR with the distance of 10,539km, A332 will not require a stop over in DXB, that's a big difference.

Yup, which is why a number of us (myself included) were wondering why they were looking at the A333 as we assumed (incorrectly) that the flight was to be a non-stop.

However, now that we know the flight will stop in DXB by plan, AirAsia can operate the larger A333. However, the 773ER is a large step in both capacity and price to the A333, so I wonder if AirAsia is considering doing the route non-stop, but only wants a twin? This would negate the A343/A346, but allow the 772ER, though maybe Air Asia feels the 773ER is a better choice in terms of re-sale value if they do decide to go forward with the A350X come 2015 or so...