Pe@rson
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The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:41 pm

Many people believe that Ryanair (FR) just serve remote, secondary airports, far located from the nearest city. But that is, on the whole, a myth: if you look, the vast majority of the airports FR serve are of the regional variety - not secondary. To understand it, you need to realise that more people fly FR to visit their friends and family (VFR), such the 2 million Poles living in the U.K. and the 9 regional airports FR serves in Poland, than for leisure (39.29% for VFR, 37.57% for leisure). However, leisure, in terms of city breaks (e.g. to London, Dublin, Rome and Paris), sun holidays (such as Faro, Malaga, Almeria and Girona (Costa del Sol)) and skiing (such as Bergamo and Grenoble), is still crucially important. And people do fly FR for business reasons (23.15%, in fact), particularly, perhaps, on its Dublin-U.K.-Dublin routes, such as to/from Gatwick.

The regional airports it serves are typically small and quiet because they have few if any other airlines serving them, thereby enabling considerable negociation regarding the charges and fees imposed - a recent article about Londonderry Airport said FR gets everything, such as security, stand space, etc, for free - while permitting faster turnarounds, better on-time performance and fewer lost bags.

In Italy, for example, it serves 23 airports, of which only 5 or 6 could be considered secondary, namely Forli, Treviso, Bergamo, Ciampino and Brescia (5 or 6 depending on whether you include Pisa). That means 17 or 18 are regional ones, such as Turin, Genoa, Trieste, Pescara, Parma, Perugia, Palermo, Cagilari, Alghero, Rimini, Brindisi, Bari and Ancona. They are not secondary airports - they are regional airports.

Moreover, in some countries, such as Germany, there is a higher concentration of secondary airports, whereas in others, such as Poland, it doesn't serve any secondary airports, but rather only regional airports. Furthermore, the vast majority of the airports it serves in the U.K., France and Spain are regional, but with some secondary and some primary, while in Belgium it only serves a secondary airport.

In terms of Spain, it serves 15 airports, of which only 2, Gerona and Reus, could be described as secondary, while the rest are either regional, such as Zaragoza, Seville and Vitoria, or major, such as Madrid and Malaga.

In terms of France, where it serves 20 airports, only Carcassonne, Grenoble and Beauvais could be described as secondary, while the other 17, such as Brest, Bergarac and Montpellier, are regional.

While it certainly serves some secondary airports, the most well-known of which arguably being Hahn, Torp, Girona, Bergamo and Skavasta, the vast majority of the airports it serves are of the regional variety, such as Eindhoven, Billund, Klagenfurt, Wroclaw and Porto, while yet others are major, such as Madrid, Manchester, Birmingham, Warsaw, Dublin and Malaga.

The general perception is that the airports it serves are of the remote, secondary variety. That is perhaps explainable by considering that most people will probably not realise that Bydgoszcz, Poland, is used by the considerable Polish community in the U.K. for VFR reasons - more people fly FR to visit family and friends than for tourism - and not used as an alternative to, for example, Warsaw. After all, who would think to visit Bydgozcz? Who has previously heard of it?

What if I were Italian and lived in the Umbrian capital, Perugia? That regional city has a non-stop connection to London, thereby enabling a get-away trip to the English capital, one of the world's best cities. Cheap, easy, convenient.

Thus, FR on-the-whole provides a convenient option for getting somewhere by serving underserved or unserved regional airports throughout Europe. However, it certainly serves some secondary airports (generally in big cities, such as Paris, Barcelona, Milan and Rome) some of which can be far from the city they claim to serve, such as Torp to/from Oslo and Hahn to/from Frankfurt, although some are closer, such as Ciampino to/from Rome, while also serving some major airports (normally when there's only one option, such as Dublin, Warsaw and Madrid).
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Gemuser
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:49 pm

What criteria are you using to distingush regional from secondary? It is not obvious from your post.
To me a secondary airport is one which servers a city which has a primary airport, ie it is a second facility for a city. Where as a regional airport is the primary airport for the region.


Gemuser
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teva
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:33 pm

Pearson, the reason peple consider they fly to secondary airports is just the misleadng way FR sells those destinations.
Beauvais is not Paris.
In the past, they sold Carcassonne as Toulouse.
The day they call an airport by its name, people will look at them in a more positive way.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
PADSpot
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:47 pm

I think you should see it from a customer perspective. In Europe four fifths of the customers live in the country side. Thus you need to fly there in order to catch them. The one's living in the countryside were always used to traveling to the next nearby city or regional airport in order to catch a flight. This is nothing new. Servicing small, regional airports has been an explicit part of AB's strategy since at least 15 years. Michael o'Leary was still a tax adviser then ...

On the destination side it is different: More people travel from the countryside to cities. City people also travel to other cities, but not predominantly to the country side. Therefore on the one hand you need the regional airports to get the people and you need comfortable city airports to receive them.

That's is where it lacks understanding at RyanAir ... Ryan might save 5€ per passenger by flying to REU instead of BCN. But the passenger has to pay at least 15€ to get from Reus to Barcelona. How is that fair? It really reminds me of an (attempted) scam that happened to me two years ago in Southeast Asia. I took an overnight bus from Hue in Vietnam to Savannakhet in Laos. 5km short of Savannahket the bus stopped, the driver said "End of line line" and left us prey to some motorbike drivers who offered a ride to Savannakhet for rip-off prices.
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
What criteria are you using to distingush regional from secondary?

If only there were a single answer to this question  Wink I've been working in it for months, but never found it.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
To me a secondary airport is one which servers a city which has a primary airport, ie it is a second facility for a city. Where as a regional airport is the primary airport for the region.

And so here it depends on how you define a region. Some examples:

Is Liverpool the primary airport of Liverpool, or a secondary airport for North west England? Or both?

Is Pisa the primary airport of Pisa, or a secondary airport of Florence, or a secondary airport of Tuscany? Or all-in-one?

Is Eindhoven a primary airport for Eindhoven, a primary aiport for the south of the Netherlands, or a secondary airport for the whole country, and thus being secondary to AMS.

Is Bergamo primary to Bergamo, or secondary to Milan, or both?

I'm looking for some scientific definitions. I think it should be a definition, including the number of people (percentage) for who the airport would be the first choice, and the percentage of people that would consider the airport as not primary, but a good alternative when it offers the right connections/price/schedule/airline.
 
spantax
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:06 pm

Well, I fly FR often because they are great value for money and their planes are almost always on time and often arrive ahead of schedule. I think FR is one of the most important factors in the aviation industry in Europe nowadays, because not a single major/flag carrier can operate without keeping a close eye on FR moves. And I find that one of the key elements in the success of FR is precisely that of flying to "strange" places with small, user-friendly airports. But all this having been said, I disagree 100% about the tactic of calling "Frankfurt" to Hahn or "Barcelona" to Girona. It is unfair, illegal, indecent and stupid. Stupid because they gain nothing at all with this tactic but, instead, they get a lot of bad publicity and legal processes, fines, etc. I hope they will change soon this approach.
A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
 
cumulus
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:10 pm

Can you do me a favour and stop referring to "Visiting Friends And Relatives" as VFR, it's confusing as VFR is short for "Visual Flight Rules" which is the rules of separation when flying when you can see out of the window!
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:29 pm

Quoting Spantax (Reply 5):
But all this having been said, I disagree 100% about the tactic of calling "Frankfurt" to Hahn or "Barcelona" to Girona. It is unfair, illegal, indecent and stupid. Stupid because they gain nothing at all with this tactic but, instead, they get a lot of bad publicity and legal processes, fines, etc. I hope they will change soon this approach.

I disagree it's stupid. I agree that their previous approach "Barcelona (Girona)" was bad, however their current approach "Girona (Barcelona)" is very realistic. It shows that it is not Barcelona, but that it serves as an alternative to Barcelona.

Frankfurt (Hahn) is a different matter, but again, not illegal. Under IATA rules, HHN may carry the FRA designator, just like STN is part of LON, NRN is part of DUS, etc. It's depending on who defines it.

Almost everybody books via the web on Ryanair (98%). When you click on the map on Frankfurt Hahn, you immediately get a page mentioning "Frankfurt-Hahn is located approximately 124 Km from the city of Frankfurt. " Just one click, that is IMO well within reasonable own responsability of the user.
 
ZRHnerd
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):

I think you should just get over it. A lot of people on this website dislike FR for the obvious reasons, and you're post ain't going to change anything about it, instead you'll be proven wrong and flamed.

Anyways, glad they haven't invaded Switzerland yet, and they may stay out for the time being Big grin
 
Pe@rson
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting ZRHnerd (Reply 8):
instead you'll be proven wrong and flamed.

LMAO. I am not wrong. It is perfectly obvious, if you look at it, that the vast majority of the airports FR serves are not secondary but regional, irrespective of whether you apply a regional, city, or whatever, criteron.

Moreover, do not be under any illusion that I like a lot about FR. I do not. I just always back the underdog because that is my nature. Indeed, I dislike many areas of FR's operation, such as its relationships with its all-important stakeholders, it's occasionally misleading nature, the fact that it is not - like almost every discount carrier - an exciting and memorable product, that it relies too much on competing on price, and its poor media perception.

Let's look at SOME countries and the cities/airports in which that I consider regional or major. Please tell me the alternatives which make them secondary.

In Italy:

Turin
Genoa
Trieste
Ancona
Rimini
Brindisi
Bari
Lamezia
Palermo
Trapani
Cagilari
Pescara
Parma
Perugia
Alghero

In France:

Deauville
Brest
Nantes
La Rochelle
Bergerac
Poitiers
Limoges
Rodez
Pau
Biarritz
Nimes
Montpellier
Toulon - possibly serves as alternative to Nice, possibly simply as an alternative entry/departure point to/from St. Tropez; and B.A. did serve it.
Marseille
Tours
Perpignan

In Spain:

Zaragoza
Vitoria
Santiago
Madrid
Valencia
Murcia
Almeria
Malaga
Jerez
Seville
Granada
Valladolid
Fuerteventura

In Ireland:

Dublin
Cork
Shannon
Knock
Kerry

In Portugal:

Porto
Faro

In Austria:

Linz
Salzburg
Klagenfurt
Graz

In Poland:

Warsaw
Krakow
Rzeszow
Wroclaw
Lodz
Poznan
Bydgoszcz
Gdansk
Szczecin

U.K.:

Aberdeen
Inverness
Edinburgh
Newcastle
Teesside - not 100% sure. Secondary to NCL? Hmm.
Leeds
Manchester
Liverpool - major city in its own right
Doncaster
Bournemouth
Blackpool
East Midlands - arguably secondary, but Nott/Derby/etc v populous area
Newquay
Bristol

Czech Republic:

Brno

Netherlands:

Eindhoven

Sweden:

Malmo

Denmark:

Billund
Aarhus
Esbjerg

Germany:

Bremen
Friedrichshafen
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ZRHnerd
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):

lol. I'm not going to argue with you, as it will be pointless because you're so blinded by your ryanair admiration.

But hey, thanks for the laugh  Silly
 
Gemuser
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:28 pm

IMHO

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Is Liverpool the primary airport of Liverpool, or a secondary airport for North west England? Or both?

Its the primary airport for Liverpool and may be the/a *regional* airport for NW England. It can't be secondary, unless its secondary to somewhere else. I see no problem with an airport being both Primary and Regional.

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Is Pisa the primary airport of Pisa, or a secondary airport of Florence, or a secondary airport of Tuscany? Or all-in-one?

Primary of Pisa, secondary of Florence, regional of Tuscany. What is Amergio Vespuche(sp) Airport(?) for Tuscany? Pisa is obviously the main Tuscany airport.

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Is Eindhoven a primary airport for Eindhoven, a primary aiport for the south of the Netherlands, or a secondary airport for the whole country, and thus being secondary to AMS.

Primary for Eindhoven, *regional* for south Netherlands.

I personally find the use of Primary/Secondary for airports the way they are used in this thread quite difficult. In this country all airports are primary airports, unless declared secondary, but this is more an ATC/Operations things rather then a market/public thing.

Gemuser
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Pe@rson
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 12):
Primary of Pisa, secondary of Florence, regional of Tuscany

Tend to agree, but that opens the door for ambiguity and confusion. I mean, do you consider the number of customers and movements? Totally hypothetically, what if Pisa was the number-one airport in that regard over Florence? What if more people flew into Pisa yet went to Florence than the total number of those arriving into Florence? Would Florence still be the primary airport for Florence - even though it's closer to Florence - and Pisa the secondary? What if there were an airport 1 mile from central Florence which saw one flight a day - on an ATR-42 - and an annual passenger total (dep/arr) of 28,995? Would its location override the fact that it'd be the closest, or what? Would that airport be the primary one for Florence? You see, the list of possibilities for defining it all is not only confusing but also very arguable. Hence, a simple title, like regional, bypasses that ambiguity and is offered in contrast to secondary in terms of, for example, Malpensa and Bergamo. Moreover, the vast majority of the airports Ryanair serves are regional - and regional primary using your definition - like those in the list above.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
icarus75
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Girona (Costa del Sol))

Excuse-me but Girona is Costa Brava, not Costa del Sol!!!!!!
Flying is amazing!
 
Pe@rson
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 17):
Excuse-me but Girona is Costa Brava, not Costa del Sol!!!!!!

Thanks. Glad I got those awful places confused.  Big grin
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
swiftski
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:54 pm

Malmo could be a secondary airport for Copenhagen.
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
Please tell me the alternatives which make them secondary.

Please tell me, how do *you* define the difference between regional and secondary?

Why is CRL secondary, not regional?
Why is GRO secondary, not regional?
Why is Eindhoven regional, not secondary?
Why is Turin regional, not secondary?

I don't have the answer, I don't even have a clear opinion. But I try to define the difference. Everybody has an idea why the one is secondary, but the other is regional. I try to find what is behind these decisions. So I just wonder how you distinguish.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Teva (Reply 2):
Pearson, the reason peple consider they fly to secondary airports is just the misleadng way FR sells those destinations.
Beauvais is not Paris.
In the past, they sold Carcassonne as Toulouse.
The day they call an airport by its name, people will look at them in a more positive way.

The thing is that people don't always pay attention, or in some cases don't fully realise where they are actually going. I had a client in this week who's mother had booked herself to Glasgow on FR to attend a funeral because it was the cheapest option. She left the airport, got in a taxi and within 5 minutes had to call her son in GLA because the taxi driver had never heard of the crematorium in question. The son started giving the driver directions, at which point he said they where in PIK not GLA 35 miles away! Needless to say, any savings she made flying into PIK disappeared in her taxi fare.

I noted recently that FAO has been renamed Faro/Huelva on the FR site. Huelva is 110km from Faro, and I really do not think it is entirely fair to sell Faro as Huelva.

Whether you like or hate them, the likes of FR and U2 have forced down fares across Europe, much to benefit of the consumer. IB (Air Nostrum) has a summer service MAD FAO and last year the lowest fare was Eur 328.00 + tax return (one was was more expensive!) assuming you stayed a Saturday night. FR now operates the route, with a lead in fare of Eur 0.01 + tax. Even though you get free food and drink on Air Nostrum, that's one expensive meal!
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:10 am

Meh, I want to fly from Glasgow to Paris. Not from Ayr to Beauvais.

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
That's is where it lacks understanding at RyanAir ... Ryan might save 5€ per passenger by flying to REU instead of BCN. But the passenger has to pay at least 15€ to get from Reus to Barcelona.

And what if the passengers actually want to go to a vacation home in Reus? Not everybody normally traveling to BCN wants to go to Las Ramblas. Just like for GRO, there are many resorts on the Costa Brava that attract many passengers; GRO is more convenient.

Next month I'll be off for Calella, and I'll fly NRN-GRO. It is cheaper than DUS-BCN or AMS-BCN, but it's also by far more convenient. From GRO to Calella is only a 30 minute drive, from BCN it takes more than an hour...
 
BCAL
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting ZRHnerd (Reply 10):
I'm not going to argue with you, as it will be pointless because you're so blinded by your ryanair admiration

If Pe@rson believes in FR, or admires them as you say, then he has the right to put forward arguments as after all this is a website of free speech and it would be boring if everyone had the same opinion. I also admire FR and even have more admiration for MOL. As I have repeatedly stated, not every one wants to go to the primary airport for a city - give me LGW any day over LHR.

Yes people on this site (and many others) have a dislike for FR but in many cases it is because they are jealous of FR's success. Just think of it, would Lord King (who was BA Chairman in the 1970s and early 1980s) had thought during his reign that the day would come when BA might be concerned about the moves of that then small Irish airline that was near bankruptcy? I abhor VS and everything they stand for from my personal experiences with them, yet there are many others who think it is the best airline in the world.

And on the topic of FR, there was an almighty rumpus when they were criticised for advertising fares of GB 0.99 and not quoting the taxes etc that pushed this up to nearer GBP 50. How come Air Asia can get away with advertising fares between the UK and Malaya for GBP 9.99 when, with taxes etc, they are really GBP 100?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 20):
And on the topic of FR, there was an almighty rumpus when they were criticised for advertising fares of GB 0.99 and not quoting the taxes etc that pushed this up to nearer GBP 50.

Same situation here in the Netherlands. Everybody moans on FR, although the prices on their website banners are all taxes included. Up till several weeks, all prices on the frontpage where tax included, but now they have it ex tax again.

Anyhow, KLM fails to mention taxes too. Ryanair at least states "Fares are exclusive of taxes fees & charges which do not exceed �23.50" in the same window. KLM advertises London for EUR 59, also on huge billboards everywhere in the country -> you end up paying EUR 189 as the minimum fare. Now, that's no problem.
 
nycfly75
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
hat's is where it lacks understanding at RyanAir ... Ryan might save 5€ per passenger by flying to REU instead of BCN. But the passenger has to pay at least 15€ to get from Reus to Barcelona. How is that fair? It really reminds me of an (attempted) scam that happened to me two years ago in Southeast Asia. I took an overnight bus from Hue in Vietnam to Savannakhet in Laos. 5km short of Savannahket the bus stopped, the driver said "End of line line" and left us prey to some motorbike drivers who offered a ride to Savannakhet for rip-off prices.

I was on a holiday with my cousin's from Italy last year to the Costa Brava. They made all the arrangements and I wouldnt have chosen FR if I was in charge of the plans. Anyway they booked the early morning flight from back to Rome from Girona. Since there was no ground transport at 4am from where we were to GRO, (but there was to BCN 24/7) we had to bus it the NIGHT before. Being the southern Italians that they are my cousins opted for the economical option of sleeping on the floor of airport. Since I didnt want to be a party pooper, I figured I stay with them. After a couple of hours of laying on a towel with my luggage as my pillow and listening to that annoying automated airport announcer, I came to my senses and fled to airport hotel acorss the road and spent 60 Euros for a comofortable 6 hours of sleep. So a cheaper FR flight cost me an extra 60 Euros for hotel accomodations and a near miss of an sore back. Vueling from BCN is far more appealing!
 
rootsair
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:25 am

Hope FR doesn't start to fly to Switzerland anytime soon !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Joost
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 23):
Hope FR doesn't start to fly to Switzerland anytime soon !

I don't understand that. Why not? You're not obliged to fly them or whatsoever?

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 22):

But is that Ryanairs fault? Your cousins opted for a very early flight. Nobody is stating that Ryanair is the best option for any travel plan there is. Not at all. But in many occasions, it might be handy. In my case here, I want to rent a car anyways. When I wouldn't have had my driving license, I'd fly to BCN too. When I just want to visit Barcelona, I fly to Barcelona. There is a product for every need.
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting ZRHnerd (Reply 8):
think you should just get over it. A lot of people on this website dislike FR for the obvious reasons, and you're post ain't going to change anything about it, instead you'll be proven wrong and flamed.

Anyways, glad they haven't invaded Switzerland yet, and they may stay out for the time being



Quoting ZRHnerd (Reply 10):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):


lol. I'm not going to argue with you, as it will be pointless because you're so blinded by your ryanair admiration.

But hey, thanks for the laugh

Haha thanks for the laugh! Welcome to my RU list!

Glenn Big grin
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
ZRHnerd
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 25):
Welcome to my RU list!

Cheers  Wink
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:39 am

With all of this discussion about FR and the airports they serve in the EU, how does this all compare with the strategy WN uses over here in the US? WN often avoids highly congested airports like ORD (choosing MDW instead), and then for NYC they choose ISP over JFK & EWR (but would gladly welcome some slots into LGA). WN also avoids "high cost" airports such as DFW or MIA (until last year DEN was on such a black-list). Does FR avoid these as well?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
RJ100
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:11 am

Excellent post Pe@rson. I would even consider some airports as main airports such as Bergamo. The airport in fact is for many Milanese people closer than Malpensa which is called the "main" airport.

As for Switzerland one can only hope FR starts services here. Interestingly to see who is already bitching against it even though nothing is confirmed yet. Mainly the people who cannot accept competition, support "national" airlines who received billions of tax payers money and now fear to lose the last passengers at the airport FR is interested in.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
planesarecool
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting ZRHnerd (Reply 8):
A lot of people on this website dislike FR for the obvious reasons, and you're post ain't going to change anything about it, instead you'll be proven wrong and flamed.

What obvious reasons? Because they're jealous of it's success? Because they're annoyed that less well off people now have the chance to fly? Because they realise FR have the potential to challenge national airlines? The funny thing is, Pearson isn't going to be proved wrong.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
To me a secondary airport is one which servers a city which has a primary airport, ie it is a second facility for a city.

So if FR are bashed for serving secondary airports, why aren't all the airlines that serve Gatwick? Because by your definition, Gatwick is a secondary airport.

Quoting Teva (Reply 2):
The day they call an airport by its name, people will look at them in a more positive way

So why don't airlines advertise MAN as Ringway? Or MCO as McCoy? Or LAS as McCarren? Or SEA as Tacoma? Airports like HHN and PIK have an official name of Frankfurt Hahn and Glasgow Prestwick, so why shouldn't FR advertise them to those cities?

In fact, i go onto the BVA website and voila:



Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 18):
Meh, I want to fly from Glasgow to Paris. Not from Ayr to Beauvais.

Then pay more to fly GLA-CDG, and stop complaining. You don't have to fly them, so don't bother.

Quoting Joost (Reply 16):
Why is CRL secondary, not regional?

Because it's used to serve Brussels, the same way Gatwick is used to serve London.

Quoting Joost (Reply 16):
Why is GRO secondary, not regional?

GRO could be both. I'd consider it as a regional airport, designed to serve the resorts in Costa Brava, and the Pyrenees. However many would use it as a secondary airport for Barcelona.

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 6):
Can you do me a favour and stop referring to "Visiting Friends And Relatives" as VFR, it's confusing as VFR is short for "Visual Flight Rules" which is the rules of separation when flying when you can see out of the window!

It's two completely different terms, used in a completely different context. Stop moaning

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 22):
I was on a holiday with my cousin's from Italy last year to the Costa Brava. They made all the arrangements and I wouldnt have chosen FR if I was in charge of the plans. Anyway they booked the early morning flight from back to Rome from Girona. Since there was no ground transport at 4am from where we were to GRO, (but there was to BCN 24/7) we had to bus it the NIGHT before. Being the southern Italians that they are my cousins opted for the economical option of sleeping on the floor of airport. Since I didnt want to be a party pooper, I figured I stay with them. After a couple of hours of laying on a towel with my luggage as my pillow and listening to that annoying automated airport announcer, I came to my senses and fled to airport hotel acorss the road and spent 60 Euros for a comofortable 6 hours of sleep. So a cheaper FR flight cost me an extra 60 Euros for hotel accomodations and a near miss of an sore back.

And whose fault is that? You were clearly informed that FR fly to Girona, and that there may be limited resources from there as it is a smaller airport. It's not FR's fault that there was no transport to GRO, as they don't operate the buses or trains in the area. It's not FR's fault that you booked the early flight where common sense would tell you that there might be less ground transportation. I can't get to Gatwick from my house until 7am earliest, which is no good for a 6am flight, but i'm not going to blame the airlines for that.
 
ZRHnerd
Posts: 830
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:20 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 28):

As for Switzerland one can only hope FR starts services here. Interestingly to see who is already bitching against it even though nothing is confirmed yet. Mainly the people who cannot accept competition, support "national" airlines who received billions of tax payers money and now fear to lose the last passengers at the airport FR is interested in.

Nice try, but with CHF200 Million net win, LX won't have anything to fear. Actually, they'd be much better off if they gave up BSL completely. And why always hint at me with your bitching? Just tell me you're talking about me, i'll get over it  Wink
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:56 am

Not only LX would be better off but also BSL. Never forget that.

I am bitching at you because you support an airline that literally gave up flying to BSL but consistantly bitch against every airline that wants to fly there. I have already told you several times that today the market decides who is flying from where. And certainly not some Swiss managers or some Swiss government institution.

As for the LX profit, we can discuss that in the Swiss aviation thread. But for now: A one time profit doesn't make a healthy airline (especially with the backgournd of wasting several billion $ in past years). Let's see how it looks in a few years when the economy is going downhill again or the oil price is rising 10 or 20 bucks or Ahmedinechad is causing something.

RJ100

[Edited 2007-01-06 18:56:50]
none
 
ZRHnerd
Posts: 830
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:20 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 31):

And again, i disagree on most points, but this is indeed not the thread to continue this discussion.
 
ryanairCRL
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:18 am

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 28):
I would even consider some airports as main airports such as Bergamo. The airport in fact is for many Milanese people closer than Malpensa which is called the "main" airport.

and for CIA being the secondary airport of Rome, well it's actually closer to Rome than FCO.

GRO : I used to operate out of CRL and i can assure you that once come summer time, only about 20% of the passengers are going to Barcelona. The majority is going to the beaches and resorts of Costa Brava (Lloret de Mar ring any bell?).

As it has been pointed out by many, yes airport names (and not Ryanair names,eg Paris Beauvais, Frankfurt Hahn) are sometimes misleading. But most of the time FR doesn't fly to big cities. Sure it goes to just about every European capital and main metropolis. But it's only a small part of the network. When you look at countries such as France, Poland and Spain, you clearly see that the main objective is to attract those people living outside those main hubs.

Call it regional or secondary, can you really blame FR for flying in the middle of nowhere? Pe@rson can give you all the numbers, but I'll just say that in 2006 it's more than 40million people who flew with FR. Now, if like most of you think, it were such a problem that there is sometimes no easy transport to the airport which is actually 80km away from the main city, would there be such a demand?
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PHKLM
Posts: 788
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RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 21):
Ryanair at least states "Fares are exclusive of taxes fees & charges which do not exceed �23.50" in the same window. KLM advertises London for EUR 59, also on huge billboards everywhere in the country -> you end up paying EUR 189 as the minimum fare. Now, that's no problem.

As much as people are biased 'anti-FR' you are now displaying a good deal of ignorance towards KL.
I definately agree you cannot fly AMS-LHR for 59 euro's return.
Yes, KL's taxes are damn hefty, and it's good they have to stop advertising with these impossible fares pretty soon. However, the bookable fare lies around 150€, not 180. This will be a AMS-LHR flight, and only involves transportation to/from AMS and to/from LHR.
With FR most people will have to incur some additional transportation costs, as their airports are further away from where most people live/need to be.
Furthermore, the all-in prices of Fr are still misleading, as they charge you for paying by credit card (KL still offers other methods of payment free of charge (iDeal - which would be the Dutch equivalent of VISA Electron)) and they charge you for carrying luggage. Also, a travel insurance is selected by default, and you have to de-select the option if you don't want it. Well, call that fair practices.
As much as I hate Ryanair bashers (ZRHNerd get a life  Wink ) I hate the FR defenders with their arguments "you get what you pay for"; FR provides an inferior product for a much lower price - but misleading customers is not acceptable.
All airlines equally promote fares that are impossible to book, a practice that soon has to end. For me, I personally avoid FR at all costs because I'm a student and it would be impossible for me to bear the costs when a FR flight is cancelled and I end up paying for taxi's, hotels, last-resort one-way tickets on legacy's, etc...

BTW Pe@rson it's a good thing you're still here despite the truck loads of criticism that head your way when posting these FR threads, including this one Big grin
 
Joost
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
As much as people are biased 'anti-FR' you are now displaying a good deal of ignorance towards KL.

That's quite a harse statement.

For the prices, they add 116,15 to the price. I see they currently have a EUR 49 base fare for LHR, that must be new; when I got my quote a couple of months ago it was still 59 for the base fare. That resulted into 175,15. I recall a 189,45 quote, but it might have been BCN too, and therefore I stand corrected. However, still the lowest price on klm.nl is EUR 165,15 for advertising EUR 49. Just checked, so exactly between our both estimates  Wink

Now transportation costs.
The Heathrow express costs GBP 28.00 for a return fare when bought online. Heathrow connect is cheaper of course, at GBP 12.90.
And then tube as cheapest option, GBP 7.00 for most central destinations.

Stansted Express via Ryanair return express class is GBP 19.50 to Liverpool street, 1 to 2 GBP to central destinations. In my case (Caledonian Road, GBP 1.00).

For 2 people, I paid EUR 120 on FR, including 1 bag. EUR 16 for parking at NRN and EUR 10 on gas. EUR 56 for the STN express and EUR 6 for tube. Total EUR 208. Two KLM tickets only would give me EUR 330, still not calculating train fares to Schiphol. 122 Euros spare.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
With FR most people will have to incur some additional transportation costs, as their airports are further away from where most people live/need to be.

Travel time from terminal to Caledonain road is similar for LHR and STN. From Arnhem (not really middle-of-nowhere), NRN is quicker than AMS.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
Furthermore, the all-in prices of Fr are still misleading, as they charge you for paying by credit card (KL still offers other methods of payment free of charge

And KLM has a 10 EUR "service charge" - what's the difference?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
I'm a student and it would be impossible for me to bear the costs when a FR flight is cancelled and I end up paying for taxi's, hotels, last-resort one-way tickets on legacy's, etc...

I'm a student too. When I'm visiting friends who study abroad and a return flight is cancelled, I can just stay another night. I'll just pay some ground transport. Worth a risk. And certainly less than EUR 122. Stansted is not so much middle of nowhere.

Oh, and the most frequent cause of delays and cancellations, the weather related ones, affect them all. When I flew FR our a/c outbound actually went tech, they had a new one available within one hour. It could have been my lucky day, but I was still impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I really like flying KLM and I fly them sometimes too. When their schedule suits me better, when I need the frequencies, whatever. Sometimes they often quite smart deals. And the feeling on board, the smiles of the F/A's, the whole atmosphere of the legacy's: I love it. But it's not always worth the difference.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 35):
For the prices, they add 116,15 to the price. I see they currently have a EUR 49 base fare for LHR, that must be new; when I got my quote a couple of months ago it was still 59 for the base fare. That resulted into 175,15. I recall a 189,45 quote, but it might have been BCN too, and therefore I stand corrected. However, still the lowest price on klm.nl is EUR 165,15 for advertising EUR 49. Just checked, so exactly between our both estimates

Alright that is fair. I see they just added 7€ of additional taxes since yesterday because the flights I've been looking into are now more expensive.
The pain is AMS, the airport taxes are exorbitantly high. When you live in Arnhem, try flying out of DUS, even with KL it might be cheaper and you get at least 4 segments for your FB status  Wink

Quoting Joost (Reply 35):
For 2 people, I paid EUR 120 on FR, including 1 bag. EUR 16 for parking at NRN and EUR 10 on gas. EUR 56 for the STN express and EUR 6 for tube. Total EUR 208. Two KLM tickets only would give me EUR 330, still not calculating train fares to Schiphol.

In December I flew AMS-MXP-BCN-MXP-AMS on AZ for 160€ all-in. My friends had a ticket on FR NRN-GRO for about 60 euro, they paid €30,-, then the transfer GRO-BCN was €21 and they had to share a taxi to get to the bus terminal because their return flight was very early. So the difference between FR and a legacy seems 100€ upfront, but if you add things up it's around 40€. Which could still be an entire flight on FR (I did MRS-EIN O/W in the week after the route was launched for €20 all-in).

Quoting Joost (Reply 35):
And KLM has a 10 EUR "service charge" - what's the difference?

The service fee is included under "final price", but with Ryanair it always takes some steps in the booking process to see these additional charges. From a marketing viewpoint I fully understand this; people already decided they want to book the flight / buy the product and are very unlikely to abort their booking once they got enthusiastic about it.
Fortunately, FR is hurting themselves big time with these hidden charges, especially with the luggage cr*ap, paying 4€50 a piece which can't be heavier than 15kg a person, the allowance is not share-able between pax travelling together (even married couples); I've seen many people complaining about this.

So not to hijack this tread; although the secondary/regional airports are sometimes convenient, the majority of people is easily mislead by the low fares and for me it just does not justify the additional hassle so FR just just inform people better.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23347
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 29):

Then pay more to fly GLA-CDG, and stop complaining. You don't have to fly them, so don't bother.

He doesn't want to fly BA via BHX/MAN or LHR either  Wink
No nonstop flights between GLA and CDG
But yes, he and the other Weegies yshould fly PIK-BVA  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Joost
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:22 am

I know it's policy, but (already 2 years ago) at CIA it was usual business. No kidding, some people in front of my we way to much l

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 36):
The pain is AMS, the airport taxes are exorbitantly high. When you live in Arnhem, try flying out of DUS, even with KL it might be cheaper and you get at least 4 segments for your FB status

I often check DUS, but it wasn't attractive this time (AB to STN). The advantage of DUS is the train connection, albeit worse than the train to Schiphol. To make it more complicated, I live in Enschede, my girlfriend in Arnhem. So usually I check FMO, DTM, NRN, DUS, EIN and AMS. The downside of NRN is the lack of public transport; it was quite a hassle when the car we supposed to take to NRN went broke 2 days before the trip. My preferred airport still is AMS, actually.

DUS-AMS-LHR is 205 euros in the promotional fare. And I don't think I'd take the hassle for these obvious connections. Price difference must be well over EUR 30-40 to take a connection. Did it last year, though; AMS-OSL-TRD.

Back to FR: for me, GRO is still attractive as I want to rent a car anyways.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 36):
Fortunately, FR is hurting themselves big time with these hidden charges, especially with the luggage cr*ap,

Sorry folks I did not intend to curse here. Too late to edit now but I'm sorry.  blush 
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4348
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 12):
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 12):Primary of Pisa, secondary of Florence, regional of Tuscany
Tend to agree, but that opens the door for ambiguity and confusion. I mean, do you consider the number of customers and movements? Totally hypothetically, what if Pisa was the number-one airport in that regard over Florence? What if more people flew into Pisa yet went to Florence than the total number of those arriving into Florence?

I honestly thought that this was the case! Because of the short runway at Florance and the fact that Pisa airport has direct service into SMN station in Florance. I have not been in Tusceny since 01 and at that time I definately got the impresson that Pisa was the most popular airport for Florance. Ironically enough on that last trip we flew FR from PSA to STN.

After reading this thread I think you are engaged on an impossiable task! because each sitution is so different. I think for this type of discussion the primary airport is the one with the most pax, secondary are all others within the same local government area (whatever it is) and regional is airports outside the local government area.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
g4resagent
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:39 pm

I honestly don't know why so many people on here hate Ryanair. Why do you hate them so much? Seriously, it gets kind of old. This isn't the airline industry of the past. The days of hot meals, and perks are gone.
 
USADreamliner
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:33 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:45 pm

Ryanair calls Hahn "FRANKFURT" and Reus and Gerona "BARCELONA", that's where the problem is.
 
g4resagent
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:47 pm

Allegiant calls PIE Tampa and SFB Orlando-Sanford. What is so wrong with that?

[Edited 2007-01-07 05:48:24]
 
Joost
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:09 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 42):
Ryanair calls Hahn "FRANKFURT"

The owner of the airport calls it "Frankfurt Hahn Airport". Ironically, it is owned by Fraport, the same company that also owns FRA.

Ryanair does state in one single click from "destinations" that the airport is 124 km from Frankfurt. If they'd call it Hahn, nobody would know where the airport was needed for at all.

And for people arriving in the middle of nowhere: virtually all airports have a coach service for a reasonable fee to the city advertised. It might take some extra time, but you will be able to get there.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:25 pm

Quoting G4resagent (Reply 43):
Allegiant calls PIE Tampa and SFB Orlando-Sanford. What is so wrong with that?

Sorry, but check Google Maps yourself. PIE is 17 miles away from Tampa downtown, SFB is 22 miles away from Orlando downtown.

GRO is 111 km (90 miles) away from Barcelona; NRN is 80 km (50 mi) away from Düsseldorf. See the problem? If I would drive to Tampa International and find out my flight leaves from PIE, I take the I275 and I'm there, if I arrive ar BCN and my flight turns out to leave from GRO; I;ve missed it.
Now in itself this is to a large extend the responsibility of the pax, BUT: FR is very inconsistent with this on its website; Eindhoven is called Eindhoven, not Amsterdam (Eindhoven), but GRO is called Barcelona (Girona), NRN Düsseldorf (Weeze) and HHN Frankfurt (Hahn). Now the distance between EIN-AMS, GRO-BCN and HHN-FRA are about the same, still this inconsistency consists. Pax gets confused, misses their flight, finally shows up at the right airport (only served by FR and the likes) and end up paying a good amount of money for getting a later flight.

If it would be the occasional pax getting lost, I'd say, too bad; but when there are printed route descriptions being handed out at DUS because of the large amount of people that did not understand they have book a flight out of the middle of nowhere (NRN) then I seriously doubt the pax is to blame...
Now that is wrong with FR in my opinion, needless to say that claiming

Quoting G4resagent (Reply 41):
honestly don't know why so many people on here hate Ryanair. Why do you hate them so much? Seriously, it gets kind of old. This isn't the airline industry of the past. The days of hot meals, and perks are gone

shows that you don't get the point here. I am not anti FR, but they get away with things at the expense of their customer. Try the Skytrax forums and you'll see what I mean.

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/ryan.htm
 
757lgw
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:34 pm

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:02 am

I must say i love ryanair and i fly them a few times a month, i dont understand quite why people hate them so much, ok they fly to airports such as "glasgow prestwick" but its clear what airport that is , and anyway last time i checked glasgow airport was in paisley.
In 2 weeks time i will be flying ryanair from bournemouth to dublin , at the time of booking my flight i researched a few options ryanair was by far the best. At the end of the day i was left with the follow decision:

BA (london airways)
Expensive train fare to gatwick
£80 fare
poor punctuallity
Old 737 aircraft

Ryanair
local airport
£11.47 return fare including ALL taxes fees charges ect...
New 737-800 with leather seats
Far better punctuallity than BA

The decision was easy. You have to remeber ryanair serve local airports british airways serve london. So british airways is good for the 7 million people that live there and ryanair is good for the other 50 million that live in the UK

I will also be flying ryanair from bournemouth to glasgow prestwick in a couple of weeks, ryanair is far more convinent for me as bournemouth is near to me and also im visiting saltcoats which is just as close to prestiwck as it is paisley (glasgow airport). So again i had the choice of ryanairs top punctuality and low fares or BA's rip of fuel surcharges.
I find ryanair to be a very good airline im yet to have landed more than 5 miniutes after my schedueled arrival time.
 
ryanairCRL
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:18 am

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting 757lgw (Reply 46):
british airways is good for the 7 million people that live there and ryanair is good for the other 50 million that live in the UK

i like that  Smile

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 42):
Ryanair calls Hahn "FRANKFURT"

wrong =>

Quoting Joost (Reply 44):
The owner of the airport calls it "Frankfurt Hahn Airport".



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 45):
I am not anti FR, but they get away with things at the expense of their customer.

So you're blaming FR because its passengers can't look up where the airport they're using actually is? is it FR's fault if when it says Barcelona (Girona) and Barcelona (Reus), passengers still think of a 3rd airport?
http://flyingtom.myphotoalbum.com
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 29):
Then pay more to fly GLA-CDG, and stop complaining. You don't have to fly them, so don't bother.

Gkirk is quite right. I want to fly non-stop between GLA and CDG. But sadly it is hard for BAA to attract airlines to the route due to FR at PIK. They drive down yields for the other carriers and GLA is badly affected.

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
EFHK
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

RE: The Airports Ryanair Serves

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:07 am

I think this thread has missed the point completely, unless the intention was to have an endless argument on whether airports X,Y and Z are regional or secondary.

Ryanair doesn't think about whether an airport is a secondary or a regional one. They only care about what serving the airport costs, and what is the nearest well-recognised city it could be marketed as.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.