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OzarkD9S
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DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:50 am

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...efault-underdog&ctrack=1&cset=true

Looks like PMD may be getting airline service back. UA and DL are "interested" with service most likely to SFO/DEN (UA) and SLC (DL). Could this be a renaissance of sorts for PMD?
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LAXintl
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:47 am

What the article does not mention is that the airlines are responding to a RFP put out by LAWA to bring back scheduled services to the airport.

The winning airline will be allocated $900,000 in federal Small Community Air Service Development Program grant funds, while LAWA and the City of Palmdale will thrown in The combined hard-dollar and in-kind commitments $4.6 million over three year period.

The RFP required airlines to commit to multiple daily 50-90 seat jet operations to a Western regional hub for a 3 year period.

Personally I'd say the UA option to SFO would be the most beneficial since after all the LA Basin to Bay Area is the states busiest market and would allow folks in the growing Antelope Valley area a way to get to Northern California conveniently without driving back into LA and using airport such as Burbank, while at the same time providing worldwide connection opportunities via UA's SFO hub.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
AADC10
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:57 am

Few airlines would willingly establish service at PMD. LAWA probably twisted their arms to get them to establish service out there while renegotiating leases at LAX under Ch. 11. LAWA needs to get airlines to serve PMD and ONT to satisfy the NIMBY deals made to allow minimal safety improvements to LAX. That is one of the reasons behind the rename to LA/Palmdale. The "regional" approach to air transportation is a proven failure but the NIMBYs back it because it sounds more reasonable than "close LAX."

UA and DL would probably have two RJ flights per day to SFO and SLC respectively. I remember the land speculators who got burned purchasing land near the "international airport" that never really got much service. The killer is going to be that PMD is even further from LA's business centers than ONT. There is a little aerospace out there but it is mostly a bedroom community, which tends to lead to low yields.
 
bohica
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Thread starter):
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...efault-underdog&ctrack=1&cset=true

Article requires registration.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:07 am

A little more info is in this article:
Palmdale airport gets 2 airline bids
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/5108591.html?showAll=y&c=y

Also as a side note I just drove through the Santa Clarita area on I-5 this week.

I couldn't help but notice the large billboard next to the freeway encouraging people to drive north and use BFL for flights.

Given the traffic congestion in the 2 mile stretch of the 5/405/210/14 mix I could see a few people might consider going to PMD or BFL instead of south to BUR, ONT, or LAX.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
DL777LAX
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 2):
The killer is going to be that PMD is even further from LA's business centers than ONT. There is a little aerospace out there but it is mostly a bedroom community, which tends to lead to low yields.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
The winning airline will be allocated $900,000 in federal Small Community Air Service Development Program grant funds, while LAWA and the City of Palmdale will thrown in The combined hard-dollar and in-kind commitments $4.6 million over three year period.

I doubt that they would need much more then the $5.5M in subsidies

Although, this just shows how much sprawl there is in the south land. The amount of construction going on in Palmdale, which a few years ago seemed like it was in the middle of nowhere is staggering.

And, stupid NIMBYs. I say we have 747s go over there houses all night long. Its the 5th busiest airport in the country/world (forgot which) for Christ sakes. Its been a busy airport for a long time.
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worldtraveler
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:02 am

Service to DEN or SLC is far more valuable than service to SFO.

It doesn't hurt that both UA and DL still have significant outstanding financial commitments to LAWA (UA's BK case re: LAX is still not closed). DL or UA would certainly benefit by getting this service.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 4):
Given the traffic congestion in the 2 mile stretch of the 5/405/210/14 mix I could see a few people might consider going to PMD or BFL instead of south to BUR, ONT, or LAX.

That along with NIMBY's is what keeps So. Calif. from building any more airports. The military chooses to close a base and the NIMBY's all gather to force destruction of the airfield (El Toro). The CEQA laws give the NIMBY too much power in California.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
FATFlyer
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
That along with NIMBY's is what keeps So. Calif. from building any more airports.

I'm not sure I see how traffic congestion stops the building of more airports.  Confused

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
The military chooses to close a base and the NIMBY's all gather to force destruction of the airfield (El Toro). The CEQA laws give the NIMBY too much power in California.

It wasn't CEQA that stopped a commercial field at El Toro, it was the ballot box. Orange County voters chose to say no, a choice I personally disagreed with. But that has been hashed out on a.net many times before.

I agree that CEQA can sometimes go too far.

On the other hand having lived through California growth before CEQA I've seen what happens when the developers and politicians had too much power to ramrod development through no matter what.

Unfortunately we never seem to find a good balance between the 2 poles.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:23 am

Palmdale and the Antelope Valley are growing very fast. Its cheaper to live on the other side of the San Gabriel Mountains than it is to live in the basin. The area is one of the few "middle class" areas of Los Angeles county. I think service to PMD would be very profitable for the airlines.
It is what it is...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
I'm not sure I see how traffic congestion stops the building of more airports. confused 

It is mostly the noise issues that people will use to protest and attempt to stop airport development. Orange County is a classic case in point. Look at the slot restrictions and a/c types tha can go into SNA, and the departure procedures that must be used at that airport.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
Orange County voters chose to say no, a choice I personally disagreed with. But that has been hashed out on a.net many times before.

I'm well aware of the El Toro situation, and how similar to what San Diego voters just did to Mirimar. Yes there were many wonderful threads here on a.net surrounding that most contentious issue. In California in particular property values can be an incredibly contentious and often times more emotional issue with respects to CEQA, and the number of cases that end up in litigation is staggering.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
I agree that CEQA can sometimes go too far.

California has far too many lawyers that love to take advantage of this and the almighty $$$ talks when lawyers get involved in anything.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
FATFlyer
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
It is mostly the noise issues that people will use to protest and attempt to stop airport development. Orange County is a classic case in point. Look at the slot restrictions and a/c types tha can go into SNA, and the departure procedures that must be used at that airport.

SNA is a grandfathered case. The noise and slot restrictions at SNA, LGB and TVL all date back to the late 1970s to mid 1980s, before other areas even considered them.

As a result Congress passed the Airport Noise Act which limits existing airports from putting in new noise rules such as slots and curfews. So the complaints, methods and results used then no longer hold up. Classic case sure but no other area can follow that path to stop airport development.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
I'm well aware of the El Toro situation, and how similar to what San Diego voters just did to Mirimar.

And in both cases I also think they made the wrong choice. Both bases should have been a part of the transportation infrastructure in some form. But I vote in Fresno and had no say.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
California has far too many lawyers that love to take advantage of this and the almighty $$$ talks when lawyers get involved in anything.

FYI, California per thousand residents has fewer lawyers than Massachusetts, NY state, Illinois, and other states. Yet California is the largest state by population and also home to a number of financial/service industries and corporate HQ that would require attorneys on staff which would skew the number upward.

Money really talked before CEQA put limits on unfettered development without mitigation.

There was no concern about the effects of a new development on transportation, neighborhoods, noise, environment, etc. If it added tax dollars or population it could get pushed through.

Back then it was easy to downplay the impact or say it wasn't the responsibility of the developer or even local government to consider how those people in a new subdivision would get to their jobs. So new building happened without mitigation such as better roads. The impact on water quality, sewer plants, existing residents, schools, parks, etc was simply ignored if it was inconvenient or costly.

Look at the sprawl that occurred in California without CEQA in the 1960s to 1980s to see the other side. There is a reason people used to point at California as the poster child of uncontrolled sprawl and development.

As I said, CEQA has swung things too far the other way by being overly cumbersome but before CEQA it was do whatever and don't worry about the impacts.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
WN230
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Personally I'd say the UA option to SFO would be the most beneficial since after all the LA Basin to Bay Area is the states busiest market and would allow folks in the growing Antelope Valley area a way to get to Northern California conveniently without driving back into LA and using airport such as Burbank, while at the same time providing worldwide connection opportunities via UA's SFO hub.

I second your decision for two reasons. One, you have an airport without the congestion that BUR and LAX have. Two, traffic is bad enough when your driving south of Palmdale, but when (if) your caught in the traffic jams on the 14, this would make trying to connect to a flight down in L.A. would become a
 banghead  experience for a traveller in the PMD area if the airport weren't served by UA or DL or any airline.

That's my  twocents .

WN230
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azncsa4qf744er
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:47 pm

Sound like SkyWest or ASA will be flying this route weather UA or DL gets it.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting AznCSA4QF744ER (Reply 13):
Sound like SkyWest or ASA will be flying this route weather UA or DL gets it.

Actually, it is likely guaranteed to be Skywest, because ASA on the West Coast only flies the CR7s. However, PMD would be served with no bigger than a CRJ-200, so it'll just be a question in which carrier's colors Skywest will operate those planes.
 
tsnamm
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:21 pm

Didn't HP fly to Palmdale in the early 90's to LAS and PHX? What ever happened to their service?
 
azncsa4qf744er
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
it is likely guaranteed to be Skywest, because ASA on the West Coast only flies the CR7s.

That is incorrect. ASA operate both CR7's and CR2's at LAX.
 
N1120A
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RE: DL, UA Looking At PMD

Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Thread starter):
Looks like PMD may be getting airline service back. UA and DL are "interested" with service most likely to SFO/DEN (UA) and SLC (DL). Could this be a renaissance of sorts for PMD?

Interesting that they are trying PMD again, given the lack of success before and the low yield nature.

Quoting DL777LAX (Reply 5):
Its the 5th busiest airport in the country/world (forgot which) for Christ sakes.

World. Third in the US

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
California has far too many lawyers that love to take advantage of this and the almighty $$$ talks when lawyers get involved in anything.

You have got to be kidding me.
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