Bofredrik
Topic Author
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Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:26 am

This seems to be a never ending discussion among airline staff but i say just one thing: Customers first! If there is empty seats in Business- or First-class (for airlines that still have F-class), always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it. I can not understand that some people do not agree with this "policy"...  Angry
But i am looking forward to Your argument against the above.  Smile
 
charlienorth
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
This seems to be a never ending discussion among airline staff but i say just one thing: Customers first! If there is empty seats in Business- or First-class (for airlines that still have F-class), always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it. I can not understand that some people do not agree with this "policy"...
But i am looking forward to Your argument against the above.

How do you determine which paying passengers get the upgrade?
Will this stop people from purchasing FC tickets on the chance they will get an upgrade?
Why does it matter so much to you..too cheap to buy an upgrade?
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:29 am

I believe this had been discussed ad nauseum. Good topic though.

Question: If there are no more available people eligible to upgrade and people don't want to use mileage or pay for the difference and there are empty seats, then what? Upgrade people just because? Give away a premium product for free?

Here is one

RE: Non-revs In 1st Class (by Exitrowaisle Dec 28 2000 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=355116&s=non+revs+in+first#ID355116

to start with.

[Edited 2007-01-07 21:32:10]

[Edited 2007-01-07 21:39:01]
You can't cure stupid
 
Avianca
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:30 am

if a paying customer want a upgrade, than pay for it.... cash, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status....
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Ih8b6
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:30 am

Do you mean paying customer as in someone with a coach fare and there are empty seats up front airlines should just move them up there to be nice?? Or, are you saying that airlines should move the coach pax up if they are willing to pay for it?

I think if there are seats open up front and coach pax want to pay for it, fine. Free upgrades just to be nice? No. It's a business not a charity.
Over-moderation sucks
 
zvezda
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
Will this stop people from purchasing FC tickets on the chance they will get an upgrade?

This absolutely happens -- a lot. On carriers like LH and (especially) SQ, passengers are willing to pay the premium fares because they know that's what it costs to sit up front. On carriers like UA and US, passengers are willing only to pay discounted economy fares, because they know from experience that's what it costs to sit up front.
 
LGWspeedbird
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it.

so how about if the staff member has a priority that allows them to be in that cabin??
upcoming flights LHR-LAX-HNL-SFO-LHR
 
sk601
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:49 am

At the airline I work for, the rule is as follows:

To get a seat in C-class:
1 passengers with a confirmed C class ticket
2. passengers holding a C-class request ticket, and a confirmed M-class seat(same fare as confirmed C-ticket, but unable to confirm at time of booking)
3. passengers with a confirmed M-class ticket willing and able to pay for the upgrade
4. passengers with a confirmed M-class ticket and willing and able to upgrade using FF miles
5. passengers with a confirmed M-class ticket holding a Elite FF card will get a complimentary upgrade when M-class is overbooked and M-class passengers are on the waitlist.
6. passengers with a confirmed M-class ticket who are on the waitlist (due to overbooking)
7. airline staff on duty travel/ dead heading crew
8. staff on leisure travel with a C-class priority (a.o. airline CEO, higher management, captains, pursers)
9. staff on leisure travel with M-class priority if M-class is not available.

Note 1: Commercial passengers will ALWAYS get a seat assigned before standby staff on leisure travel is accepted.
Note 2: commercial passengers with a waitlisted M-class ticket will NEVER be upgraded if M-class checks in full. To accomodate those passengers then confirmed M-class passengers will be upgraded (starting with Elites/full fare M)
Note 3: I guess Bofrederik has problems with point 8 and 9. Well I guess that's the benefit of working for an airline.  

[Edited 2007-01-07 21:51:58]
 
trekster
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 7):

Exactly. They dont seem to understand. Get em working for an airline, and how much do you want to bet they will shut up and stop compiling, and SOOO look forward to maybe turning left or going upstairs on there travels
Where does the time go???
 
ikramerica
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 7):
9. staff on leisure travel with M-class priority if M-class is not available.

I think that's the best policy. It gives the consumer every opportunity to upgrade, and gives the leisure travel staff member every expectation of being in Y, but if things work out just right for the leisure travel staff member they can get in C.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:58 am

Don't most staff, retired or others with pass priviledges pay upgrade fees to sit in the front of the aircraft as well and get there only on a standby basis? Revenue is revenue vs. upgrading a Y passenger for no charge.

Besides, what does the guy paying think if his seatmate is a Y class passenger that's been upgraded because there's an empty seat.

Additionally, most carriers have dress codes to ride up front and today's pass riders are happy to get on and really happy to get in First on a rare basis. If the flight attendents are doing their best, pass riders can be asked their menu choice last to offer paying passengers the full range of choices. F priviledges can't hurt the morale of employees either.

What could be changed is the positive space F class seat for crew members (who usually just sleep) and crew that are given F seats for rest purposes on long haul flights. You'd think there would be a better way to leave F seats available for highly paying revenue passengers. I guess the 787 and some 777's/Airbus aircraft will have above the ceiling sleeping quarters. That makes sense.
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iairallie
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:07 am

Employees are always at the bottom of the upgrade list. You won't see an employee in F or C unless all eligible revenue passengers have been accomodated. This is universal at all airlines. Regular/discount fare coach passengers are not eligible for upgrades because it degrades the product. Who would pay for F/C if they knew they could get a free upgrade on their discounted Y class ticket? I see nothing wrong with offering seats that would otherwise go empty to employees as a perk. Many airlines charge employees fees for the upgrade.

I suppose your job doesn't offer you any perks? When I worked for Disney I got free park entry. If you work for a retailer you get merchandise discounts and so on.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
DABZF
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it.

... do you mean upgrade M-class passengers even if there are enough M-seats available? No airline would ever do this, why should they give out free upgrades?

... or do you mean that a non-rev is given the last C or F class even though a someone would be willing to pay for the upgrade? I can say that I have been personally taken away a C-seat twice because someone wanted to pay an upgrade at the last minute. On the second time I was even already sitting on my seat! Both occasions I had a C-class non-rev ticket purchased. Oh I don't say this because I think it's wrong... of course it's not wrong... paying customer comes always first, but not without a price.

[Edited 2007-01-07 22:19:45]
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goCOgo
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 2):
Upgrade people just because? Give away a premium product for free?



Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 4):
Free upgrades just to be nice?

Isn't that exactly what you are doing for a nonrev upgraded to first?

And if the concern is that people won't pay or use miles, couldn't the same argument be made against giving free upgrades even to elites, who fly more often and are probably more likely to purchase the occasional first class seat?

How about a random lottery for left over first/business class seats? That would be something to advertise that would distinguish an airline's product.

But I agree, paying customers first. Many of you airline employees seem to think nonreving is a natural born right. Most of the rest of us that aren't airline employees and don't fly frequently for business would give practically anything to fly for free.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:17 am

In my experience, pass riders (except maybe for certain senior management and job-related functions) are prioritized below all revenue passengers for any seat, whether it be in the premium cabin or not. So if there is one open seat left in coach, a standby revenue passenger will get it over any pass rider; likewise, if there is one open seat in J it will be given to anyone who pays for it, anyone who pays for an upgrade, or anyone whose frequent flyer status and/or fare class qualifies him or her for the upgrade. Only once all paid and status upgrades have been awarded and open seats remain will a pass rider be given any remaining F/J seats.

Flight benefits are part of the compensation package of airline employees. If space is available in a premium cabin after all qualifying revenue passengers have been upgraded, and the particular airline's policy allows pass riders to sit in the premium cabin, the pass rider gets that seat because it's part of the employee's compensation - just as your employer may compensate you with health insurance or a pension plan.

If you're saying that you don't like employees being upgraded to premium cabins ahead of paying customers, or those who qualify for an upgrade per the airline's rules, I will agree with you - and also say that you're misinformed, because I don't think any airline has a policy to upgrade pass riders before any qualifying revenue customers. If you're saying that the airline should upgrade any revenue passenger, regardless of whether they have paid or have the status to get an upgrade, you're just wrong - the employee has "paid" for their seat with their labor (just as you might "pay" for your health insurance with your labor), but the revenue passenger has paid for a Y seat, which is what he or she will get. Giving away a $5000 long-haul J seat to someone on a $300 T fare just to keep an employee out of it devalues the J product, reduces the benefits to loyal customers who have earned the seat through paid upgrades or elite status, and lowers the value of the employee's compensation (not to mention morale), all for no benefit to the airline.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
But I agree, paying customers first. Many of you airline employees seem to think nonreving is a natural born right.

Nonrevving isn't a natural born right, it's part of the negotiated compensation package for airline employees. Pass travel, including in premium cabins if there is space available and the airline's rules permit it, is part of employee compensation just as the paychecks are. The customer, on the other hand, has paid for a product and will get the product he/she paid for. What justification is there for giving a customer (who has not paid for or qualified via status for an upgrade) a free product that he or she did not pay for?

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
Most of the rest of us that aren't airline employees and don't fly frequently for business would give practically anything to fly for free.

You don't have to give practically anything; it's easy to fly for free. Just go work for an airline, and you will get pass rider benefits as part of your compensation package. In exchange, you will likely have terrible hours (at least starting out) and make much less money than you could in a similar job outside of aviation. If you did that, you would probably appreciate how much of your compensation is made up by employee travel benefits.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:26 am

Many people outside the aviation industry have the misconception that staff have unlimited travel in F for free - this is far from the truth! At my airline the policy is, in my view, very fair.

Most staff have an M class priority, and will travel in M if there's a seat available. If M is full but there are seats available in premium cabins, in most cases staff will be upgraded. After 10 years service there is the option to pay for a J priority ticket once a year. Staff on duty have at least a J priority, and managers have an F class priority.

Airline industry pay is lower than most others, and travel concessions can be one of the main reasons people choose to work for an airline. I think the most important thing is to have a fair balance between perks for a good level of staff morale, and of course keeping commercial passengers happy at the same time - most airlines balance this well.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:26 am

Non-reving used to be fun and predictable. Nowdays, you have to pad you trip to be sure you arrive by the date you would like. Forget the front cabin, its always full with upgrades. My wife got stuck in IAH for 3.5 days last February. That benefit of "flying for free" included 2 hotel nights, living at IAH for 3+ days, checking the screens, changing gates every hour or so and trying creative routings to get out of town. With legacy scheules, there are few P2P flights, so you're going through a hub, which can end up with cancellations due to weather and ATC.
When stuck, the alternative is full fare on another carrier and that's not cheap.
As a non-rev, you must plan ahead, check all loads and be prepared to fly on Tuesday and Wednesday. Even Saturdays are really tight as carriers have trimmed services to meet demand and the demand is usually planned with just enough seats.
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tpaewr
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:27 am

Do restaurants give away the extra food to their customers , or does their staff typically get it? I've personally never gone in, ordered a cheeseburger and got a filet mignon? Don't think this doesn't happen in retail too!

Do you have a business? If so how often to you give away your premium product just because you have extra lying around? You think I can swing by a pick up an "extra" '06 BMW tonite since they are left over?

If not, then why is air travel suppose to be different? Is there a reason you find this so bothersome? The strength of your statement almost has an emotional value to it. Do you get the product you paid for; while others something they earned another way? How is that not fair?

[Edited 2007-01-07 22:31:22]
 
Ih8b6
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
How about a random lottery for left over first/business class seats? That would be something to advertise that would distinguish an airline's product.

Would never work...you would piss too many elites on free upgrades off by sitting them next to the guy who has nothing more than the clothes on his back and all is worldly belongings in his carryon garbage bags (yes they fly, I've boarded many of them in my gate agent days) or the 'punk looking' skater kid. The idea of making a criteria to be eligible for the lottery is too much work when more important things need to be done, plus the skater kid or the garbage guy would sue for discrimination.

Nonreving isn't a right for airline employees, it's a priveledge. Likewise, premium seats aren't a right even for paying customers who bought a coach ticket. They have the options to buy upgrades to the premium seats. If they choose not to, they go to the employees or go empty.

[Edited 2007-01-07 22:31:27]
Over-moderation sucks
 
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keesje
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it.

Is every passenger always more important then your own staff?

Are they travelling for fun only?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:37 am

TPAewr, the difference is that an airline seat is perishable. As soon as the aircraft pushes, every empty seat can't be sold or given away.

To compare it to going out to dinner, it would be more like arriving and being told to wait for a table. If a reservation no shows for the best table, they call you and give you the table. Is that an upgrade? No they won't upgrade your food.
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wingnut767
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 2):
Upgrade people just because? Give away a premium product for free?



Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 4):
Free upgrades just to be nice?

Isn't that exactly what you are doing for a nonrev upgraded to first?

Every airline has different rules and negotiated deals with there staff. But the average non rev is paying for the flight and even more for being in first. So the company is still making money. They are not free and they are not doing it to be nice. Intl Biz and F/C can still cost a bit to non rev. And actually here in the states it has been much harder to Non rev due to lower capacity and pretty full flights. It is only a benefit if you can get on the Airplane.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
tpaewr
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 21):
TPAewr, the difference is that an airline seat is perishable. As soon as the aircraft pushes, every empty seat can't be sold or given away.

To compare it to going out to dinner, it would be more like arriving and being told to wait for a table. If a reservation no shows for the best table, they call you and give you the table. Is that an upgrade? No they won't upgrade your food.

I said nothing about the table, since you don't pay for it. Food is rather perishable as well. Still, if I order and pay for a cheeseburger I will rightly get such. Just because the staff might be picking at something better in the kitchen is none of my concern.

The point is no business gives away there best product for nothing!
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
This seems to be a never ending discussion among airline staff but i say just one thing: Customers first! If there is empty seats in Business- or First-class (for airlines that still have F-class), always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it. I can not understand that some people do not agree with this "policy"...
But i am looking forward to Your argument against the above.

Why in the world should someone be upgraded just so???

If you pay for a BMW 3 series they cardealer definitely won´t let you drive away in a BMW 5 or 7 series... fact!!!

Why is it that people always expect to be upgarded for free, why is it that people always think they can "steal" something from the airline just so... (in that case a revenue F/C-class seat)??? And please don´t tell me "Well the seat is empty, so why not just move people up there"! If a cardealer didn´t sell the BMW 7 series, but you bought a 3 series it still doesn´t give you the right to take the 7 series instead!!!

However any person working for BMW for sure gets some kind of benefits and discounts if he buys a brand new BMW!!!

Every industry has its benefits for its employees. Why not???!!! What´s the big deal!

And one of the benefits of working for an airline is free or in most cases discounted travel in all classes available (of course only if space is available and on a stand-by basis!). It´s the benefit of working for an airline... PERIOD!!!

Just get over it! If you think it is so desirable, go ahead and apply with an airline. Then you´ll have the same benefits. If not, just accept it!!!

Best regads

L1011Lover

[Edited 2007-01-07 23:57:05]

[Edited 2007-01-08 00:17:08]
 
LHR777
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:02 am

Anyone notice how the original poster hasn't chimed-in? I reckon he's just trying to kick something off, bringing up such an emotive subject....  Yeah sure
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
Isn't that exactly what you are doing for a nonrev upgraded to first?

Once all people who are eligible for upgrade, want the upgrade and pay the difference and there are seats still available (an employee would never go ahead of a paying customer), non-revs should be next. It is a perk of the job, a benefit. Just as it is with regards to other industries and employers

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 24):
However any person working for BMW for sure gets some kind of benefits and discounts if he buys a brand new BMW!!!



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 24):
Every industry has its benefits for its employees. Why not???!!!
You can't cure stupid
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:07 am

Tpaewr:
OK I understand your comment and agree.

As far as cars, I've been upgraded many times with a rent-a-car. I'm sure they upgrade because they ran out of less expensive rentals.

As a gate agent a few decades ago, we routinely chose nicely dressed full Y passengers to upgrade when our ORD-DEN-COS midday 72S flight had more people than seats in Y. It was great to see how happy someone can get after you call them to the podium and ask them to trade in their Y boarding card for an F one.

[Edited 2007-01-08 00:10:08]
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charlienorth
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 27):
As a gate agent a few decades ago, we routinely chose nicely dressed full Y passengers to upgrade when our ORD-DEN-COS midday 72S flight had more people than seats in Y. You could see how happy someone is when you call their name and ask them to trade in their Y boarding card for an F one.

Excellent gesture or if someone is going to a funeral or a returning serviceman,but it shouldn't be handled as the original(who hasn't responded)suggested,gate agent discretion seems to be the best way.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
deltairlines
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:33 am

My thoughts are that if you are a paying customer that is willing and able to upgrade to the front cabin (through cash, frequent flyer miles, certificates, elite upgrades, etc.) then you should be done first. Once that list has cleared completely, then why not let the staff non-rev in F as long as they comply with company policies on travel in premium cabins (dress code, etc.).

My big gripe is at least with Delta, their refusal to do day-of-departure international upgrades. While I don't fly international much (and when I do, I book First/Business class), but I don't think it's fare that some of it's elites are willing to use Platinum Medallion Upgrades/FF miles and not be allowed to sit in BusinessElite, yet non-revs can take those seats.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to pay for the F seat in some way, you shouldn't get it unless a need for op-ups. No special circumstances, such as "it's my anniversary" etc. - creates too much latitude for a gate agent in choosing who to upgrade and who not to upgrade - paid upgrades come first, and in the case of op-ups, choose elites in the back of coach (sorted on status, then fare), then non-elites in the back (by fare basis, give a full fare passenger the op-up before a non-elite).
 
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yyz717
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
if a paying customer want a upgrade, than pay for it.... cash, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status....

The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it

It makes no sense for an airline to give away, or virtually give away our premium product just because there are empty seats. You should be willing to pay the fare to ride in that cabin.

As for employees getting those seats....of course we get those seats. travel is part of our compensation package and it makes sense for the company to allow us to ride in the premium cabins when there aren't enought people willing to pay the fare for F/C. It's a no-cash way for the company to earn goodswill among the employees.

Furthermore, you should not be aware that an employee is riding in F or C, unless they are a crew member and in uniform, as employees are always dressed in business attire in F/C. We are not allowed to disclose to other passenger that we are riding for free. Good grief, our pay has been cut, our pension reduced or eliminated and our job security no longer exists. What' your beef with employees riding in front?

You want the F or C cabin? PAY FOR IT.

[Edited 2007-01-08 00:53:42]

[Edited 2007-01-08 00:55:53]
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
charlienorth
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
if a paying customer want a upgrade, than pay for it.... cash, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status....

The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

We do pay significantly more for FC
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yyz717
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 31):
As for employees getting those seats....of course we get those seats. travel is part of our compensation package and it makes sense for the company to allow us to ride in the premium cabins.

Then if its part of your compensation package, you should pay tax on it, aka a taxable benefit.

Otherwise, it's a freebie which SHOULD remain empty in-flight or go to the highest paying Y pax, which will never be a non-rev airline employee.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33):
Then if its part of your compensation package, you should pay tax on it, aka a taxable benefit.

Clearly you are speaking of something you do not know about.

Several years ago, the IRS determined that employees, their dependants and parents could utilize travel benefits without paying inputed income tax on them.

Buddy passes and Significant Others are required to have imputed income reported for the segment. The imputed income usually goes to the employee, but at some airlines it goes to the traveler.

Know what you're talking about before you have a tizz.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5015
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33):
Then if its part of your compensation package, you should pay tax on it, aka a taxable benefit.

Taxes are paid, and guess who (usually) foots that tax bill? Hint: it's not the employees.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 4):
Free upgrades just to be nice? No. It's a business not a charity.

No. Free upgrades when there are airline employees trying to ride for free. I was upgraded for free once because the gate agent "liked the sound of my name." An airline's customers -- any business's customers -- are its lifeblood, and the company should benefit them before it gives itself away to its employees.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3234
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
This seems to be a never ending discussion among airline staff but i say just one thing: Customers first! If there is empty seats in Business- or First-class (for airlines that still have F-class), always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it. I can not understand that some people do not agree with this "policy"...
But i am looking forward to Your argument against the above.

Guess what buddy? You are way wrong. One of the only perks we have left is being able to snag a ride up in first. Many of us have watched our pay drop and our pensions go out the window. For many of us the only thing that is left is the chance that we may be able to snag a seat up in business or first. If you want an upgrade then you open up your damn wallet and pay for it. We are not entitled to it, but it is a professional courtesy to give it to your fellow employee. They are out on the lines in the middle of the suck, and deserve a break. I would like to take a second to thank all of the CSR's our there who have seen my airline ID or my crew tag on my bag and come to me with a new boarding pass for business or first, it is appreciated. I paid to go to and from CDG last month, and the US CSR in ORD and the LH CSR in FRA noticed I was an employee and upgraded me. It's what you do for your fellow industry co-worker.

May I ask if you have any perks associated with your job? If so would it be unfair for me to say that you shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of them? Non-rev travel is one of the few things that many of us have left, and frankly I am tired of whiny customers thinking that they are entitled to the upgrade. You want it, buy it. Otherwise kindly STFU.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
mjlhou
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

How is this a valid argument?! As stated by others, if you work for a company that deals in autos, electronics, hotels or any other tangible good or service, then those employees are afforded certain bennefits. Airline employees in most cases DO pay a service charge or a higher fee for traveling in a premium cabin, also as stated above. Using the example of the employee that would possibly work for BMW above, the discount would NOT only be offered for the BMW "3" series or low end.....but it would most likely be extended to the "7" series or higher as well. The BMW employee would NOT be forced to pay the FULL price of the said vehicle, but rather offered a certain % of discount to be offered on ALL products offered by the company. So, that said.....please tell us why an AIRLINE employee in the same way should only be offered a discounted fare on a Y-class seat but be forced to pay the equivelent of what a paying passenger would pay for F-class?? In conclusion, all employees get some sort of discount or in some cases a free service from the company they work for, why should the airline business be any different regardless of service class??

Cheers

MJL
Don't worry about things you can't change or control
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 36):
should benefit them before it gives itself away to its employees

No weve just taken pay and work rulr concessions so fares can be lower than they were in 1989.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:15 am

We pay for our travel on every airline. It may not be the 5000 that Joe Biz has paid but we still pay for our travel. I will let you know what LHR-LAX in Y on SA)">UA cost me. It was the same as buying a Priceline ticket. SA)">UA used to be fairly inexpensive for SA travel. Now they are very expensive. DL charges us International taxes as well as US. CO has a varying arrangment for the pass charges. And we are well below the paying pax that are on the standby list.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 25):
Anyone notice how the original poster hasn't chimed-in? I reckon he's just trying to kick something off, bringing up such an emotive subject.... Yeah sure

 box 

As has been mentioned by those in the know (unlike it seems the original thread starter) staff are never given priority over commercial passengers.

ID90's can be a staff members best friend, but at the same time, can screw you totally over and leave you out in another country for days if the flights are busy with commercial passengers!

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
And if the concern is that people won't pay or use miles, couldn't the same argument be made against giving free upgrades even to elites, who fly more often and are probably more likely to purchase the occasional first class seat?

Yes. But there's also an argument that leaving a full Y pax behind because there are only J seats available, yet putting a non-rev airline employee in that seat is also losing money.

On my return leg on QF from SYD-LAX, they upgraded some J pax to F because J was oversold. They did not make those J pax stay behind, nor did they charge them extra. I assume it was the best customers who got the upgrade, and as an F customer, it didn't bother me one bit to know someone else was in F out of luck. I say good for them! I hope one time it happens to me...

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 15):
What justification is there for giving a customer (who has not paid for or qualified via status for an upgrade) a free product that he or she did not pay for?

If it's leftovers, why not give it to the highest fare Y pax? The computer knows what each pax has paid on that plane. They know that some customers paid really high Y fares, others paid discounted corporate J that might really mean any more revenue for the airline. Why not give the high paying but not "connected" Y pax an upgrade if there's someone else ready to take the Y seat, either as a paying customer or a non-rev?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15697
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 34):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33):
Then if its part of your compensation package, you should pay tax on it, aka a taxable benefit.

Clearly you are speaking of something you do not know about.

Several years ago, the IRS determined that employees, their dependants and parents could utilize travel benefits without paying inputed income tax on them.

Oh I do know what I'm talking about. I said SHOULD pay tax. Regardless of what the IRS' most recent ruling was, you are getting a taxable benefit when riding in F without paying tax on it....that, will not last long.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 37):
One of the only perks we have left is being able to snag a ride up in first. Many of us have watched our pay drop and our pensions go out the window.

So what? If your pay is that low, change industries.

It's offensive to airline customers flying in Y to see airline employees who paid far less get bumped up to F.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
stevens91
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:50 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:27 am

I work for ANA in CDG, Rebate Passengers have the possibility to upgrade to C Class with an Upgrade Certificate... But I don't know what are the conditions to get those certificates. But it's true that revenue passengers mostly travel in Y, I think it's normal as they travel for almost no cost (airport taxes only).
 
mjlhou
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
If it's leftovers, why not give it to the highest fare Y pax?

If there's a non-rev listed for it who will pay a higher non-rev fare than the "big Nothing" a passenger without elite status or more  dollarsign  , then it's NOT leftovers now is it?!  Wink

I'm also NOT saying that some pax wihtout paying the upgrade fare or possesing elite status don't ever deserve and upgrade, but to just give the premium product away just so non-revs don't get the F/J/C-class seat is WRONG. See above statement regarding bennefits.

MJL
Don't worry about things you can't change or control
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
It's offensive to airline customers flying in Y to see airline employees who paid far less get bumped up to F.

How do they know it's staff being put in FC,policy is mouth shut,maybe the fact that we are better dressed than the average Y class pax is the giveaway,why the resentment of a benefit anyhow? Does something hurt because of it.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:30 am

Well maybe some of the non-airline employees around here wanna share any information about the benefits they get from the industries they´re working in.

I´d be very interested in hearing and learning more about them.

And then simply say: "Hey, I want that too!!!" Why??? "Oh just because I want it!!!" or "Take it away from them, why are they entitled for that, while I am not???!!!"

It´s definitely not unfair that airline employees ride up-front! We pay for it as well. In LH for expample we have to pay for every single flight we take. The minimum is an ID90 ticket, except for several free trips during your ENTIRE!!! career. For instance a free ticket after 10 years with the company. And I´m not even sure if we still have that!!!

Plus we have to pay taxes, plus another fee for the "advantage" of the discounted ticket. That´s German law!!!

Sometimes certain discount fares available through travel agencies or the internet are not much higher than our ID90´s which are always based on the highest fare!!!

A F-Class round trip FRA-JFK-FRA would cost me probably €1000,- and that is stand-by if a full paying customer comes along I´ll be dumped!!! But why should a Y class passenger sit there just so while I payed 1000 bucks???

So what on earth is that fuzz all about???

We do get perks, yes... get over it!

Like so many said before, if you wanna fly in a permium cabin then pay for it!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
airtran737
Posts: 3234
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
So what? If your pay is that low, change industries

I said some of us, I have done very well for myself and have never seen my pay do anything but climb.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10096
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it.

I do get one "free of charge" (FOC) ticket each year, however the passage is not free. I still pay the taxs and surcharges for that ticket, this can cost me US$500 for a return sector. The main advantage of the FOC for me is that it had a higher standby priority over normal standby travel.

With staff travel at best we get ID90, that is we pay 10% of the published IATA fare for that sector (not 10% of the far people can pick up on the internet), I find that the ID90 ticket can be more expensive than internet fares on the same route with all the disadvantages of staff travel, i.e. it is all standby travel makes many people not use it if they want to get somewhere, especially if your trying to get back to work.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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