maxsa
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:20 pm

YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:46 pm

Hello everybody!
May be anyone here knows what is the current status of the Blue 22 project railway from YYZ to downtown Toronto. I have heard that the project is yet to start and may actually never be implemented. Any updates?
Thanks everybody
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Maxsa (Thread starter):
Hello everybody!
May be anyone here knows what is the current status of the Blue 22 project railway from YYZ to downtown Toronto. I have heard that the project is yet to start and may actually never be implemented. Any updates?
Thanks everybody

This project is a very hotly contested project in the Toronto area.

Toronto is lacking very much so in the way of a modern and sufficient transit system. For a city the size of Toronto, there should be subway's everywhere, when in fact, it's quite a unorganized mess of busses, streetcars and subways.

The Toronto YYZ Rail project has been on and off again over the past few years.

As it stands, I believe there are no plans currently. The homeowners who live along the rail corridor that was to be used have created quite a stir, complaining already about it.

Unfortunately the local politics here (both municipal & provincial) are so hotly contested, that no one wants to stick their neck out, and just do what is needed to be done. No one wants to spend the money or risk their political future by doing what is *right*.

One suggested method would be to put a subway link right up the 427 from the "end of the line" Kipling station, which would be costly, but could be done. Have it link right up with the YYZ LINK light-rail system that was just opened this year (intra-terminal link)

unfortunately, that's all I have to offer you on this one!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
ZBA2CGX
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:47 am

There are a couple of links inside transit toronto who have come up with some alternative plans to get heavy rail to YYZ (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5100.shtml). It involves extending a couple of the existing lines (Bloor line) or building new ones (the filled in Eglinton line). Given the trouble getting the university line extended to York University, I would guess all of the proposal are dead.

The people of Weston are going to have to suck it up, the rail lines have been there a lot longer then the houses. Building underpasses for the potentially closed roads would help and alleviate some of the concerns about splitting the community in two.

I guess Toronto is going to have to live in the shadow of Vancouver (Canada Line), Montreal and eventually Calgary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Train).
 
dgehfx
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:43 am

I read in a report in the Globe and Mail newspaper http:www.globeandmail.ca many months ago that it cost the same amount of money to extend the subway one station to York University as it would cost to construct a 218 km long light rail transit system.
Is it still true that the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) is the least subsidised transit system in N.A. ?
One has only to inhale in Toronto to realise how backwards Toronto has become concerning its public transport. The air polution is not to be believed.
FRA, on the other hand, has an integrated high speed and light rail transit system in the airport terminal - light years ahead of anything in Canada. There isn't an airport in Canada with a rail service however, BOS, ATL, STL, MSP to name a few have excellent rail services.
 
lawgman
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting Maxsa (Thread starter):
Hello everybody!
May be anyone here knows what is the current status of the Blue 22 project railway from YYZ to downtown Toronto. I have heard that the project is yet to start and may actually never be implemented. Any updates?
Thanks everybody

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. That was a funny joke. Making these people actually think there is a possibility of a link.
 
CRJpurser
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Dgehfx (Reply 3):
One has only to inhale in Toronto to realise how backwards Toronto has become concerning its public transport.

Try how backwards Canada is! Extension of light rail in Ottawa was recently axed (and even the extension was not going to be run to the airport, due to loss of parking revenue by the airport authority!!!). Across this county you see time and time again, examples of disdain for public transport. It is a real shame. At least YOW has an excellent bus service (leaves every 15 mins and only takes 20 mins to get downtown), YUL and YYZ are horrible for their connections downtown (I am talking public not taxis or for-profit buses). With combinations of buses and subways (from YYZ and YUL), it will take you about an hour to get downtown! YHZ, YQB, YFC, YYG, and YYT (all airports serving provincial capitals) have nothing for public transport connections, it is rather embarrassing.
 
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yowza
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting CRJpurser (Reply 5):
Try how backwards Canada is! Extension of light rail in Ottawa was recently axed (and even the extension was not going to be run to the airport, due to loss of parking revenue by the airport authority!!!). Across this county you see time and time again, examples of disdain for public transport. It is a real shame. At least YOW has an excellent bus service (leaves every 15 mins and only takes 20 mins to get downtown), YUL and YYZ are horrible for their connections downtown (I am talking public not taxis or for-profit buses). With combinations of buses and subways (from YYZ and YUL), it will take you about an hour to get downtown! YHZ, YQB, YFC, YYG, and YYT (all airports serving provincial capitals) have nothing for public transport connections, it is rather embarrassing.

The main problem with light rail in Ottawa was that they built the bloody thing north to south. This was stupid as Ottawa is bordered on the north by a river limiting the potential pool of commuters. In fact the only real benefactor of this was Carleton University. The first phase should really have been east to west connecting Nepean, Orleans, Gloucester to somewhere downtown or nearby. This was rejected for a number of reason, mainly becasue the cost was higher than north-south. Typical municpal government shite.

YOWza
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:45 am

Well YHZ is closer to Truro than Halifax Proper. It takes about half an hour to drive to Bedford from the airport, and then about another 15 minutes to get right down town. It's not like they can run the municipal bus up the 102 for half an hour.
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EnviroTO
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:51 am

The Environmental Assessment project is moving forward.

http://www.georgetownpearsonstudy.ca/

The problem with Blue22 is that unlike other airport rail connections in the world where the national rail system, regional rail system, or metro goes to the airport, this was going to be run by none of those three. Stop a subway (TTC) at the airport get easy access to a whole subway network, stop a regional rail train (GO Transit) at the airport and have access to the entire region, stop a national rail train (VIA) and have access to this side of the nation, stop Blue22 at the airport and have convenient access to only one other point (big whoop).

The other issue is that people along the corridor which the train would pass have poor transit alternatives so they were about to see government money spent to improve a rail corridor disrupting their neighbourhood while providing no benefit to them. It is hard to get buy-in for a transit corridor being built through the neighbourhood without providing an on-ramp.
 
brilondon
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Dgehfx (Reply 3):
Is it still true that the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) is the least subsidised transit system in N.A. ?
One has only to inhale in Toronto to realise how backwards Toronto has become concerning its public transport. The air polution is not to be believed

Unfortunatly I and the rest of Canada are not in favour of subsidising Toronto to any amount of money. If they want a light rail line to the airport they can pay for it themselves. I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to be spent subsidising Toronto and their god forsaken traffic problems. It use to take me 15 to 20 minutes to drive from the airport to my condo down on the lake front. Now it would take me any where from 45 minutes to two hours to do the same drive depending on the time of day. The city council for decades has had great plans for a direct link from the airport to the core of Toronto but has never had the political backbone to move on any proposal.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:29 am

The question is: For who? A rail link from YYZ to downtown TO would be just that: link to downtown, nothing else. There is no railway system worth mentioning in Canada. Go isn't exactly the fastest train service and is basically serving only the corridor between Pickering and Burlington. The service beyond Pickering on East side and Burlington on west side is quite limited... VIA service isn't anything to write home about either... And the connection to TTC? Eh, no. I simply refuse to put up with Toronto's underdeveloped public transportation system after an 9 hour flight from Europe (or 13 hour flight from Asia for that matter).
I don't think that is appropriate to compare YYZ to FRA or some other airport in the world. The infrastructure simply isn't here, the whole thing would be useless.
Sometimes it works even without the railway. In October 2004 I managed to get from NGO to Gamagori (approx. 60 km) in 1.5 hour using strictly public transportation; Airport Bus to the railway station and the train to Gamagori. But without the reliable railway service between Nagoya and Toyohashi the whole airport bus would be useless...
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connies4ever
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting CRJpurser (Reply 5):
Try how backwards Canada is! Extension of light rail in Ottawa was recently axed (and even the extension was not going to be run to the airport, due to loss of parking revenue by the airport authority!!!). Across this county you see time and time again, examples of disdain for public transport. It is a real shame.

Yup, disdain is one word for it. Personally, I think most of us middle/upper classers look down our noses at public transport as being for the poor, the old, and the immigrants -- not for 'us'. I guess it also shows how well we've been conditioned by the automakers marketing programs.

I take the bus to work, in the winter, by the way. But I plead guilty about the summer. At least I carpool.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
sebring
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 9):

Unfortunatly I and the rest of Canada are not in favour of subsidising Toronto to any amount of money. If they want a light rail line to the airport they can pay for it themselves. I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to be spent subsidising Toronto and their god forsaken traffic problems. It use to take me 15 to 20 minutes to drive from the airport to my condo down on the lake front. Now it would take me any where from 45 minutes to two hours to do the same drive depending on the time of day. The city council for decades has had great plans for a direct link from the airport to the core of Toronto but has never had the political backbone to move on any proposal.

That's as opposed to subsidizing your Olympics or your farmers or your oil industry or your traffic problems. When I hear someone outside Toronto whining about Toronto I want to barf - all over them. The rest of Canada is being nicely bought and paid for by successive governments and I only wish we had a Toronto party at the federal level whose motto would be: Kiss Our Ass, Canada.
 
Oroka
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:52 am

I grew up in Toronto, I know the TTC like the back of my hand. When I go to Toronto, I park the car at Yorkdale mall and get the subway.

Problem with expansion of the subway is the sheer cost of running a subway through a developed area (the sheppard line cost $1,000,000,000 for 5 stations). You gotta dig, and move pipelines... a big mess. The GTA is a massive area, there shoud really be a highspeed system through the region, starting in Brampton, down through Mississauga, Toronto, up the main rail corridor through Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, Oshawa. And then maybe one from Union Station upthrough Barrie. Consider it a spoke and hub system. The Go Train and busses handle the local stuff, the highspeed line for city to city.

Why not run the subway above ground, maybe along highways. There are several streaches on the TTC where the subway is above ground.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 9):
Unfortunatly I and the rest of Canada are not in favour of subsidising Toronto to any amount of money.

I'd put it this way: Rest of Canada is not in favour of returning some of tax money collected from Toronto (I could say from Ontario as it is).

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
That's as opposed to subsidizing your Olympics or your farmers or your oil industry or your traffic problems.

Our farmers maybe, but you like inexpensive food too, don't you? I'm sure that London doesn't get any subsidies either...But unlike Toronto London didn't grow into a megapolis with underdeveloped infrastructure. Hey, Torontonians can't even manage their own waste (and therefore they are bringing it to us now)

Quoting Oroka (Reply 13):
I park the car at Yorkdale mall and get the subway.

As long as you don't get kicked out by the Yorkdale Mall security... Happens quite often, especially in the morning.
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jamincan
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:08 pm

In Toronto's defence, and every other city in Canada, the provinces and the federal government have pretty much screwed municipalities. It's nice to say that Toronto should have to pay for an airport rail link, or Toronto should have to pay for the transit expansion project, but Toronto can't pay for it. With the province downloading so many services to municipalities without providing any other tax source other than property taxes, municipalities are stretched too thin to fund large capital projects like Blue22 or subway expansion alone. I would say that Vancouver is the healthiest municipality in the country thanks to progressive lawmakers in Victoria. Still, even Vancouver relies on Federal and Provincial subsidies to implement large capital projects.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:41 pm

It's not like it's the Toronto's fault it's not ready or able to support it's self. It's Mike Harris' fault. Remember the referendum? We voted not to amalgamate into a mega city. We were not ready to become one big city, and that is why we are so disorganised and in debt. We had to bring each of the cities to the same level with regards to public services. This included expanding the TTC. (though I agree the Sheppherd subway goes nowhere and should have gone to Downsview instead of way out the way it does.)

If you don't want to have traffic, Use YTZ and connect at YOW/YUL to go international. That'd really piss off David Miller.

[Edited 2007-01-09 14:41:56]
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brilondon
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
That's as opposed to subsidizing your Olympics or your farmers or your oil industry or your traffic problems. When I hear someone outside Toronto whining about Toronto I want to barf - all over them. The rest of Canada is being nicely bought and paid for by successive governments and I only wish we had a Toronto party at the federal level whose motto would be: Kiss Our Ass, Canada.

Typical response from those who live in Toronto.  crazy 
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
manu
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 9):
Unfortunatly I and the rest of Canada are not in favour of subsidising Toronto to any amount of money. If they want a light rail line to the airport they can pay for it themselves. I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to be spent subsidising Toronto and their god forsaken traffic problems.

Toronto does without to give Canada more. Realistically any city in the world with the population base and tax base Toronto has would provide more than enough revenue to do these projects. The Toronto area's traffic is the worst in North America, and I can say that because I have driven in almost every major city in North America in the last year. The problem has to be solved. How? I don't know. But it will take lots of money from someplace.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
The rest of Canada is being nicely bought and paid for by successive governments and I only wish we had a Toronto party at the federal level whose motto would be: Kiss Our Ass, Canada.

Really? Toronto is subsidizing Calgary??? Wow that's news to me  Yeah sure Albertans on a per capita basis pay around $2000 (in taxes) per year towards equalization payment. Ontario is $300 per year on a per capita basis.

You're welcome  Smile
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:12 am

With all fairness, the imbalance between tax collection and spending in Toronto is huge.

Take a look here:http://www.canadascities.ca/pdf/enoughnotenough.pdf

According to this, Toronto pays yearly $ 9 bln more than receives in services.
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EnviroTO
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 19):
Really? Toronto is subsidizing Calgary??? Wow that's news to me Yeah sure Albertans on a per capita basis pay around $2000 (in taxes) per year towards equalization payment. Ontario is $300 per year on a per capita basis.

Well that cash flow was alot different when we were paying for the Calgary Olympics and the oil sands weren't at the full-out melt the icecaps performance that they are now.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 10):
There is no railway system worth mentioning in Canada. Go isn't exactly the fastest train service and is basically serving only the corridor between Pickering and Burlington. The service beyond Pickering on East side and Burlington on west side is quite limited... VIA service isn't anything to write home about either... And the connection to TTC? Eh, no. I simply refuse to put up with Toronto's underdeveloped public transportation system after an 9 hour flight from Europe (or 13 hour flight from Asia for that matter).

GO is just as fast as the car... except it doesn't pull into your driveway. Plenty fast enough from station to station though. If the corridor Toronto-Kitchener-London could operate at the same speeds as Toronto-Brantford-London the train service from downtown London to Pearson would probably be so convenient Robert Q's Airbus service would be out of business. The TTC connection would be great for locals and airport staff (less important for foreigners visiting the country) if it was the Eglinton or Bloor line because the route to downtown is less direct.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):

GO is just as fast as the car... except it doesn't pull into your driveway.

That's true, but my driveway still may be miles away from the station.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):
Plenty fast enough from station to station

Not true. 45 min from Pickering to Danforth isn't anything to write mom about.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):
If the corridor Toronto-Kitchener-London could operate at the same speeds as Toronto-Brantford-London the train service from downtown London to Pearson would probably be so convenient Robert Q's Airbus service would be out of business.

1. There is no Go service past Hamilton
2. First to travel east to get connection to west? At least a half hour to Union Station, change trains,then 2 hours to London. Not really convenient. Robert Q',s service is safe.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):
The TTC connection would be great for locals and airport staff (less important for foreigners visiting the country) if it was the Eglinton or Bloor line because the route to downtown is less direct.

No. TO's public transportation system is just too slow. I had a few colleagues (on my previous job) living in Eglinton/Allen Road area. The office is located in Lawrence/VicPark area (roughly 15 km distance). They spent 4 hours daily commuting because of TTC. Now imagine you travel from the end of Bloor line. I just can't see anybody to do it after arrival. Same for the employees.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:51 pm

It takes me less than 45 minutes to commute from downtown to the airport, which is about as long as it takes to get to school, at York U. By car to the airport it would take about the same amount of time. By car to york is about 10 minutes faster. Not much difference there, and 2.50 to get to the airport is pretty cheap IMO.
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YYCowboy
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
That's as opposed to subsidizing your Olympics or your farmers or your oil industry or your traffic problems. When I hear someone outside Toronto whining about Toronto I want to barf - all over them. The rest of Canada is being nicely bought and paid for by successive governments and I only wish we had a Toronto party at the federal level whose motto would be: Kiss Our Ass, Canada

I detect a hissy fit from you Sebring. Unfortunately, you have it all wrong. Toronto is its own worst ennimy. Kiss Toronto ass, laff, not in this lifetime, its smelly, dirty, unwashed, retentive, bunged up, itchy, poo hangers abound, not the place any right thinking Canadian would put their lips. "Your Olympics" ???? Are you upset Toronto couldn't make a successfull bid? Perhaps because of the above? Or because Toronto cannot accomplish anything without a great deal of drama and excessive cost. As I recall, many Canadians from Toronto proudly participated in Canadian hosted Olympics, and will do so again in Vancouver. Suck it up princess, the rest of the country has infrastructure needs also.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):
Well that cash flow was alot different when we were paying for the Calgary Olympics and the oil sands weren't at the full-out melt the icecaps performance that they are now

Calgary paid for its own Olympics. The first in history to turn a profit. Perhaps you mean Montreal Olympics? Oilsands is rising to demand to fuel OUR whole nation. Its domestic supply is much more desireable than from 3rd world "dirty oil" or unstable Arab Shiekdoms. As for "melt the icecaps" well, thats as much Toronto's fault, just take a look at you're sky. Nuclear power for Oilsands extraction is very much a reality, just a matter of time.
Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 23):
It takes me less than 45 minutes to commute from downtown to the airport, which is about as long as it takes to get to school, at York U. By car to the airport it would take about the same amount of time. By car to york is about 10 minutes faster. Not much difference there, and 2.50 to get to the airport is pretty cheap IMO.

Try it from the airport somewhere in similar distance, but east of Yonge (let's say 7 Roanoke Drive) and then compare.
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lawgman
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:56 am

How did this thread become a Toronto versus Calgary issue?

Because the city of Toronto has no appropriate means of raising money to build transit, money has to come from provincial and federal governments. These governments pay for infrastructure projects all the time from all over the country. Toronto is undergoing growth that it cannot sustain without help. This is not the city's fault but reflects a reality that immigrants to Canada disproportionaly move to Toronto. The city's tax base can't support this growth.

The concept of Ontario and Alberta residents paying taxes for equalization payments is in fact a myth (and I live in Ontario). The Federal government gives money on a per capita basis to have-not provinces from the Federal treasury under what is knows as the equalization program. The only provinces not to receive this equalization money is Ontario and Alberta (but they do receive money like all other provinces from other programs). The treasuries in the provinces of Alberta and Ontario transfer nothing. Because these provinces don't receive money from the Federal government for equalization, people love to calculate the notional amount that residents of Alberta and Ontario are paying to other provinces when really all they are doing is paying the same tax rate to the Federal government as everyone else.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 26):
This is not the city's fault but reflects a reality that immigrants to Canada disproportionaly move to Toronto. The city's tax base can't support this growth.

No. Majority of immigrants is coming to Canada in skilled worker category, so they bring some money with themselves (it's in vicinity of $ 12 k for a single person) and spend it here. That in fact improves the tax base, at least GST and PST. The problem is that the collected tax isn't coming back.

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 26):
The concept of Ontario and Alberta residents paying taxes for equalization payments is in fact a myth

What's a myth here? Sure, we have the same federal tax rate as other provinces, but somebody else receives the collected money. So we could pay less income taxes or spend it on developing our province.

Edit: This thread should be moved to Non-Av

[Edited 2007-01-10 20:15:04]
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fly2yyz
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
No. TO's public transportation system is just too slow. I had a few colleagues (on my previous job) living in Eglinton/Allen Road area. The office is located in Lawrence/VicPark area (roughly 15 km distance). They spent 4 hours daily commuting because of TTC. Now imagine you travel from the end of Bloor line. I just can't see anybody to do it after arrival. Same for the employees.

4 Hours is not feasible. Unless they worked in Mississauga there's no way it would take 4 hours! I live at Yonge and Lawrence and to get me from there all the way to Explorer drive in Mississauga using a bus that comes every 30 mins from Eglinton Station connecting to Eglinton West (At Egl and Allen) took me the longest 1h30. Unless your friends took the long route I'd say prove 4 hours!



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 23):
It takes me less than 45 minutes to commute from downtown to the airport, which is about as long as it takes to get to school, at York U. By car to the airport it would take about the same amount of time. By car to york is about 10 minutes faster. Not much difference there, and 2.50 to get to the airport is pretty cheap IMO.

There's also a link from York Mills station to the airport (Terminals 1 and 2 only) on GoTransit that connects with Yorkdale, and a few other points. Journey time about 40 mins or less. Why it doesnt go to T3 and just skip T2 beats me.
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 24):
I detect a hissy fit from you Sebring. Unfortunately, you have it all wrong. Toronto is its own worst ennimy. Kiss Toronto ass, laff, not in this lifetime, its smelly, dirty, unwashed, retentive, bunged up, itchy, poo hangers abound, not the place any right thinking Canadian would put their lips. "Your Olympics" ???? Are you upset Toronto couldn't make a successfull bid? Perhaps because of the above? Or because Toronto cannot accomplish anything without a great deal of drama and excessive cost. As I recall, many Canadians from Toronto proudly participated in Canadian hosted Olympics, and will do so again in Vancouver. Suck it up princess, the rest of the country has infrastructure needs also.

Calgary actually lost two Olympic bids (1964 and 1968) before winning in 1988.
Toronto has also lost two Olympic bids, for 2000 and 2008.

BTW that was quite classy dude buddy... your juvenile rant on Toronto.  Yeah sure
Sounds like You've got an inferiority complex... suck it up.
Calgary is a great town, but it still is a second tier city in this country, well behind the first tier of YYZ, YVR and YUL.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 24):
Calgary paid for its own Olympics. The first in history to turn a profit.

First line is complete BS!! All levels of government plus private corporations helped to fund the games. The Federal and Provincial governments paid approx. $400 million, and ABC/CBC Sports paid approx. $500 million.
The city of Calgary only contributed $50 million.

However, you are right the Calgary games did make a modest profit of $100 million. But it was not the first... that honour goes to the Games in Los Angeles in 1984.

Next time check your facts.  Smile

Cheers,
Kaz
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 28):
Unless your friends took the long route I'd say prove 4 hours!

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. It was 4 hours total time, 2 hours to work and two hours back. Still a lot, I was routinely returning from service calls in area to office in 20-30 minutes.

The route: Bus from their homes (I don't exactly remember the place, since I don't work there anymore, but it was several blocks west from Allen road on Eglinton) to Eglinton West. Dufferin line subway to Spadina. Transfer to Bloor line subway, Bloor line subway to Victoria Park. Bus from Victoria Park Station to Lawrence Av.
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brilondon
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 13):
I park the car at Yorkdale mall and get the subway.

As long as the subway takes you to where you want to go. Along Bloor, Yonge, and University. Otherwise you have to take surface transportion and in Toronto that is a disaster.
 mad 
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
That's true, but my driveway still may be miles away from the station.

Yes but that is true in every city in the world which has successful rail systems. The airport isn't that close to your driveway either.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
Not true. 45 min from Pickering to Danforth isn't anything to write mom about.

The express takes 25 minutes during rush hour. Far faster than one can expect to navigate the 401 and DVP in a car. The DVP has been known to get traffic jams even on a Sunday. It takes 45 minutes when picking up passengers at 5 stops along the way... try and stop a minute at each station in the car and I bet you can't do it in 45 minutes.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
1. There is no Go service past Hamilton
2. First to travel east to get connection to west? At least a half hour to Union Station, change trains,then 2 hours to London. Not really convenient. Robert Q',s service is safe.

You are not getting my point. I didn't say the GO went past Hamilton... GO serves the GTA which is a population of more than 5 million. Blue22 was going to serve Union station... the population of the area directly surrounding Union station is far less than the catchment area of GO Transit. If the rail corridor VIA takes from London-Kitchener-Toronto was improved and the rail link between Malton GO (which is right on the edge of the airport property) and the terminal was built there would be no connections... it would be a direct route. If you read my previous posts I am saying that Blue22 was a bad idea because it serves almost nobody, but options like TTC (serving the whole western half of Toronto), GO (serving the GTA), and VIA (serving the Sarnia, London, Kitchener, Union corridor) can be much more useful options.

GO Transit runs trains right next to Pearson airport property every rush hour and plan on making the route 7 days a week service like the Lakeshore line. VIA runs 3 or 4 trains each way running right past the airport. All that is needed is to get those to serve the airport rather than running straight past it by creating a connection to the terminal and improving the rail corridor to the same standard as the Toronto-Brantford-London corridor.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
No. TO's public transportation system is just too slow. I had a few colleagues (on my previous job) living in Eglinton/Allen Road area. The office is located in Lawrence/VicPark area (roughly 15 km distance). They spent 4 hours daily commuting because of TTC. Now imagine you travel from the end of Bloor line. I just can't see anybody to do it after arrival. Same for the employees.

That is totally insane. They would have to be completely drunk and get on the wrong bus 2 times for their daily commute to be 4 hours on the TTC. That route only involves hopping on a very frequent route 32 and a reasonably frequent route 54. 15min max on route 32, 8 min wait max, and 32 min max to Lawrence/Vic Park. So 55 minutes max (more likely 48 min) on a trip which used only the bus on streets loaded with rush hour traffic.... obviously the subway moves faster than a bus and the connection being discussed to the airport is a subway connection, not a bus which already exists. Interesting how these colleagues of yours still chose to take the TTC... if they can take a supposed 2 hour commute to go 15km then they would certainly use a quicker subway to the airport.
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 24):

Calgary paid for its own Olympics. The first in history to turn a profit. Perhaps you mean Montreal Olympics? Oilsands is rising to demand to fuel OUR whole nation. Its domestic supply is much more desireable than from 3rd world "dirty oil" or unstable Arab Shiekdoms. As for "melt the icecaps" well, thats as much Toronto's fault, just take a look at you're sky. Nuclear power for Oilsands extraction is very much a reality, just a matter of time.

It made a profit because it didn't go over budget, not because zero tax dollars went to help put on the olympics. That budget counted on government spending to improve transportation links, help build facilities, etc. Toronto needs transportation link improvements and that is what this thread is about. It wasn't Olympic ticket sales and TV revenue that expanded D-wing at YYC, accellerated development of the C-Train Northeast and Northwest, and built a freeway to the base of the rockies.

The oil comes out of the ground cleaner in Arab countries than in Fort McMurray. I suppose by "dirty" you don't mean "environmentally dirty". However, there is more proof that buying oil from the Middle East has a positive effect (i.e. quality of life improvements in many Arab countries) and that avoiding trade with unstable countries only increases instability further by depressing their economies.

Anyways, this thread is about a rail link to YYZ. YYZ is a part of Canada and like other parts of Canada the 1/6th of the population of Canada expect that the government should assist in projects like the air rail link and that the ultimate solution should be well thought out rather than a rushed P3 partnership.
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 2616
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 32):
try and stop a minute at each station in the car and I bet you can't do it in 45 minutes.

Why on Earth would I do it? It's obviously true, but only a small fraction of population lives/works in walking distance from the station. If you add the trip to the station from home (in my case it was Eyer Drive in Pickering) and from the station to work (it was Carnforth Road in North York) the image is entirely different and the car is much faster. Oh, the express doesn't stop at Danforth.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 32):
Blue22 was a bad idea because it serves almost nobody, but options like TTC (serving the whole western half of Toronto), GO (serving the GTA), and VIA (serving the Sarnia, London, Kitchener, Union corridor) can be much more useful options.

 checkmark 

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 32):
15min max on route 32, 8 min wait max, and 32 min max to Lawrence/Vic Park. So 55 minutes max (more likely 48 min) on a trip which used only the bus on streets loaded with rush hour traffic....

While I won't argue with you, since I used to use the TTC rather sparsely, but I have a feeling that these numbers are just too optimistic. BTW, I was able to get from downtown to Vic Park-Danforth intersection in rush our faster by car than by subway.
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brilondon
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 21):
if it was the Eglinton or Bloor line because the route to downtown is less direct

When did Eglinton get a subway line?

I would like to try to get on the TTC from Bay and Front and try to get to the airport in an hour. This is one of the problems with Toronto. What they could do is finish those express ways that were started (Islington and the Allan express ways). They would be able to relieve congestion on the present highways and provide a more direct link to the airport from the core area of Toronto.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 35):
I would like to try to get on the TTC from Bay and Front and try to get to the airport in an hour.

It's doable and I have done it many times. Unless the traffic is really bad on the 427, the Airport Rocket is awfully quick from Kipling. But you're right though; it wouldn't be anyone's first choice in mode of transportation...

As for a rail link to downtown, it's just not going to happen in our lifetime. It costs too much money to move too few people to an area catering to people who could easily afford a cab ride to the Union Station.

I can only dream that a YYZ-downtown link would be made with 4 rails so that the express trains can run between YYZ-Union non-stop (or maybe one stop to intersect on the Bloor line) on the middle two rails and the subways/trains would run on the outer two rails. If they're going to build the rails (or use the existing rails) and build the infrastructure, they might as well bite the bullet and go all out to build subway to an area that is underserved. While University/Spadina line has been largely ineffective in alleviating the Yonge subway ridership during the rushhour, hopefully such plan would increase ridership without putting too much strain on the rest of the system. But then again, there's no money for such a rational plan....


As for all the TTC bashers, it's not that terrible. Sure it doesn't compare to many Asian transportation systems, but it's pretty good for a car-loving society. Just my 2c.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):
'd put it this way: Rest of Canada is not in favour of returning some of tax money collected from Toronto (I could say from Ontario as it is).

Can you imagine the mass-transit system we could build here in Toronto, as WELL the upgrading of our water/gas/sewage systems we could have if we withheld our contribution to Canada for taxes for a couple years?

Hrrm..

Maybe there's an idea.

then we'll see who's crying when the praries are flooded, or Mad Cow comes back.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 23):
and 2.50 to get to the airport is pretty cheap IMO.

It is not $2.50. You are charged an additional $2.50 once you leave Toronto and enter in to Mississauga which is where the airport is. Oh and by the way when you get to the airport which is two more stops after the bus driver asks for another $2.50 and you then have to either walk (which they don't allow you to do for security reasons) or you have to haul your luggage up to the shuttle bus stop located on overhead roadway. that is after you bus ride because there is no subway to the airport.  banghead  Sooo convenient.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
jamincan
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 38):
It is not $2.50. You are charged an additional $2.50 once you leave Toronto and enter in to Mississauga which is where the airport is. Oh and by the way when you get to the airport which is two more stops after the bus driver asks for another $2.50 and you then have to either walk (which they don't allow you to do for security reasons) or you have to haul your luggage up to the shuttle bus stop located on overhead roadway. that is after you bus ride because there is no subway to the airport.    Sooo convenient.

What are you talking about? The last time I took transit from the airport, I did it all on one fare (YYZ-Kipling, Kipling-Downtown). That said, it was quite a bit longer than 45 minutes. I'm pretty certain it takes that long just for the subway to get downtown.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 38):
It is not $2.50. You are charged an additional $2.50 once you leave Toronto and enter in to Mississauga which is where the airport is. Oh and by the way when you get to the airport which is two more stops after the bus driver asks for another $2.50 and you then have to either walk (which they don't allow you to do for security reasons) or you have to haul your luggage up to the shuttle bus stop located on overhead roadway. that is after you bus ride because there is no subway to the airport. banghead Sooo convenient.

When I got the 58A from Lawrence West to the airport in August the driver said the extra applies only west of the airport ie, the stops after all the terminals.
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 35):
When did Eglinton get a subway line?

Eglinton was the subway that was under construction at one point and was expected to eventually reach the airport. The Mike Harris government paid millions to stop the construction and fill the hole back in. If a subway ever did reach the airport it would be a Bloor line extention, a Eglinton subway, or a Weston corridor subway... Bloor would be the most painful of those options due to the number of stops along the way.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 35):
What they could do is finish those express ways that were started (Islington and the Allan express ways).

That would be as popular as a freeway to serve North London by running along Wellington and Richmond destroying the places it passes along the way. Victoria Park wouldn't be quite the same with an off-ramp in it.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 38):
It is not $2.50. You are charged an additional $2.50 once you leave Toronto and enter in to Mississauga which is where the airport is.

You are obviously speaking with a complete lack of experience. There is no extra fare to enter the airport.
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting Watewate (Reply 36):
While University/Spadina line has been largely ineffective in alleviating the Yonge subway ridership during the rushhour,

What subway have you been riding? I ride the U/S line Home from YorkU during rushhour, and I'm just happy I get on at downsview on the way back or I'd be standing the whole way downtown. I think the issue is that more people got on the subway, as opposed to Yonge riders switching sides.
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yulguy
Posts: 201
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RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:51 am

Toronto needs to get a YYZ-downtown rail project on the go. It's vital to the economic development of Canada's largest city. In fact, it's necessary for Canada as a whole. This is the largest gateway into the country and it's important for people to be able to commute downtown in a rapid and environmentally sound way.

Imagine how traffic would be alleviated on the 401 and the QEW. Great cities need great transit. It's just a fact. Many people on this forum may not remember, but Toronto had THE best transit system in North America until the 90s and the Harris government cutbacks. The TTC/GO/suburban municipality network was the model for all North American cities. One of the reasons that Toronto's downtown survived the ravages of the post-industrial age (as opposed to cities like Detroit, Los Angeles, Cleveland, etc.) was that its transit network remained intact and well-funded.

Airports are of course one of the vital links to a successful society and economy. As YYZ is expanding rapidly, little thought is being put into how to better serve people who need to get to and from the airport. When Hong Kong built their incredible new airport at Chep Lap Kok, it was just a given that it would be integrated into HK's superb mass transportation network. Here in Canada, our governments encourage economically, socially and environmentally unstustainable sprawl. Vancouver seems to be on the right track with their recent developments. Very disappointed that Ottawa (which has a great system) axed their LRT project.

It's time for all levels of government to step up to the plate and start taking solid action and the YYZ-downtown link would be a great start. Followed by......
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
northstardc4m
Posts: 2751
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Yulguy (Reply 43):
magine how traffic would be alleviated on the 401 and the QEW.

401, very little
QEW= none

427= possibly a little
Gardiner= ditto

Quoting Yulguy (Reply 43):
The TTC/GO/suburban municipality network was the model for all North American cities. One of the reasons that Toronto's downtown survived the ravages of the post-industrial age (as opposed to cities like Detroit, Los Angeles, Cleveland, etc.) was that its transit network remained intact and well-funded.

A model? oh god help us all!
Downtown Toronto survived because of the lack of expressway capacity, not good mass transit. And well funded??? I am trying so hard to not fall out of my chair laughing right now!

Quoting Yulguy (Reply 43):
It's time for all levels of government to step up to the plate and start taking solid action and the YYZ-downtown link would be a great start.

Actually it would be yet another useless boondoggle to go with all the other useless boondoggles this city has ever attempted...

Transit in this city is a political tool, it has nothing to do with helping the long term economy of the city, or helping commuters. Lets look at some current projects:

York U Subway extension: A political pipe-dream. There are far far far better uses for the 8 BILLION being discussed than to extend an already underused subway route 4km to the middle of suburbia.

St Clair Streetcar: This is actually nearing at least partial completion and its been a mess of political and TTC mismanagement from the start.

Scarborough LRT replacement: Again they want it to be a full Subway. the LRT is no where NEAR design capacity and they want to multiply capacity times 20. Yeah that'll be a good use of money!

I could go on, but i think ive ranted enough.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
yulguy
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:09 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 44):
Downtown Toronto survived because of the lack of expressway capacity, not good mass transit. And well funded??? I am trying so hard to not fall out of my chair laughing right now!

I said it WAS well-funded. Well-funded until the Harris Tories stopped funding and made the cities foot the bill entirely. So, continue laughing if you like. And Toronto's policy of not encouraging freeways and putting more money into transit definitely was one of the main reasons why Toronto is still one of the more liveable cities in North America. Maybe you prefer the Detroit or L.A. models. If you do, I can only assume you like cities with no centres, never-ending highways and shopping at Wal-Mart. All the power to you.

I agree that the city does not have vision when it comes to the current projects. You just reinforced my point that not enough emphasis is being put into sustainable transport options in Canadian cities and we will continue to lag behine our European counterparts....and even our American counterparts.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
brilondon
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 41):
You are obviously speaking with a complete lack of experience. There is no extra fare to enter the airport.

You are right. I don't take the TTC living on Harbour front but I got my info from a friend who works at the airport. I apologize for my lack of first hand knowledge of the TTC.

I am just not going to take the TTC with my luggage to the airport from downtown.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 41):
That would be as popular as a freeway to serve North London by running along Wellington and Richmond destroying the places it passes along the way. Victoria Park wouldn't be quite the same with an off-ramp in it.

This is a silly comparison you made just to be argumentative as there have never been any such plans for London. The express ways I cited come from an article in the Dec. 1st, 1959 Globe and Mail. They showed five different expressways that were planned for Toronto at a cost of $60 million dollars to complete.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
mohavewolfpup
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:52 pm

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:56 am

they do need a subway dragged to the airport, the airport rocket is lethal. my god, I was barely on it and had my luggage secured and the guy stomped on the gas, slammed the brakes on, etc. whew, welcome to toronto! that was my first time in toronto ever fresh off a junker A319 plane, and damn was it a literal rocket on the bus!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Reply 47):
they do need a subway dragged to the airport, the airport rocket is lethal. my god, I was barely on it and had my luggage secured and the guy stomped on the gas, slammed the brakes on, etc. whew, welcome to Toronto! that was my first time in Toronto ever fresh off a junker A319 plane, and damn was it a literal rocket on the bus!

Please don't think Toronto is a terrible place from my rants but I would have suggested taking the Airport Express Bus to the core of Toronto.

The cost of putting a subway to the Airport is wayyy too much. The less expensive alternative would be to bring the GO Train in to the airport via a spur off the CN line that runs with the Georgetown line to downtown Toronto.

I am personally in favour of using Public Transit as an alternative to the automobile. I am also in favour, to the horror of my neighbours, of an expansion of the TCCA. Air Ontario use to fly to Montreal from there which I use to use all the time. Very convenient.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
jamincan
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: YYZ Airport Downtown Rail Project

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Reply 47):
This is a silly comparison you made just to be argumentative as there have never been any such plans for London. The express ways I cited come from an article in the Dec. 1st, 1959 Globe and Mail. They showed five different expressways that were planned for Toronto at a cost of $60 million dollars to complete.

Yes, they were planned, and Toronto was so fortunate to inherit Jane Jacobs from New York, effectively mobilizing residents against the expressways. You'd be interested in knowing that several portions of that network were completed. The most obvious example of this is Allen Rd. between the 401 and Eglinton. Black Creek Drive was also supposed to be an expressway, explaining the infrequent intersections and generous ROW. Finally, the 401/427 interchange also includes very generous high-speed exits for Eglinton which at that point is contained within a very wide ROW - since it was also originally supposed to be an expressway. Then there are, of course, the DVP and Gardiner Expressways (and the now eliminated beginning of the Gardiner's extension down Kingston Rd).

Say what you like, the only effect those expressways would have had would be to enable more people to move into the suburbs and add even more congestion, along with eliminating multiple neighbourhoods that we now highly value. Toronto is so lucky that it escaped the mistakes of other cities in North America.

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