albird87
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BA And T5 At LHR

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 pm

Hey there just thought of this idea. After the construction of T5 at LHR is complete will this allow more slots into LHR? I have a feeling it is actually due to the runways there at LHR. So when they build the 3rd runway (god only knows when and where there gonna do that!!) I was wondering if BA would move all there London operations to LHR?? I mean at least all there long haul and then domestic flights as then this would allow better transfers (cause if you want to fly to one of there long haul destinations from LGW, your connections onwards from LGW are not as great as they are from LHR).

Does anybody know of what BA's plans are for LGW?? It does seem odd how some caribbean flights leave from LGW and some from LHR also that IAH is from LGW
 
Someone83
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Albird87 (Thread starter):
Does anybody know of what BA's plans are for LGW?? It does seem odd how some caribbean flights leave from LGW and some from LHR also that IAH is from LGW

Dont know about the Caribbean flight, but it is "illegal" to fly LHR-IAH according to Bermuda II, hence BA har to operate it from LGW
 
Cleared2Land4
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:06 am

Also why not DFW-LHR?
United Airlines... "It's Time to Fly."
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:14 am

IAH, ATL and DFW can't be operated from LHR under Bermuda II non-stop. BA is able to offer a LHR-DTW-IAH service on a 763, primarily for oil executives connecting onto North African and Middle Eastern flights at LHR. PHX and DEN are operated from LHR only because a minimum number of passengers are carried and because BA is the sole carrier on the route. If US was to launch PHX-LGW, or UA to launch DEN-LGW (unlikely), then BA would be forced to switch those flights back to LGW.

MCO and TPA are served from LGW as they are leisure routes, mainly O&D traffic (or fed from domestic destinations). As they are also lower yielding there is no real need for BA to operate the flights from LHR where the slots are better utilised on higher yielding premium routes. The same applies to BA's Caribbean network. Nassau, Grand Cayman and Providenciales are only served from LHR because BA uses the 763 on these services, and all these are LHR based. LGW is now largely dedicated to lesire routes and Southern European routes.

When T5 opens BA has indicated it will be able to slightly expand LHR service, but this is likely to be on longhaul rather than shorthaul routes. The addition of a 3rd runway might see BA switch some shorthaul routes from LGW to LHR, but more likely you'll see an expansion of longhaul flights, with exsiting shorthaul making use of the additional short runway.
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BA787
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:37 am

I think the whole BA london situation is excellent, they would be daft to creat an all LHR base, the split between the two airports is effective and I feel it works well. It also works well in terms of a/c. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt LGW all 737 except GB and a single A319 whereas LHR is all A32S, with maintenance facilities at each airport for each type
 
kaitak744
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
When T5 opens BA has indicated it will be able to slightly expand LHR service, but this is likely to be on longhaul rather than shorthaul routes. The addition of a 3rd runway might see BA switch some shorthaul routes from LGW to LHR, but more likely you'll see an expansion of longhaul flights, with exsiting shorthaul making use of the additional short runway.



Quoting Albird87 (Thread starter):
After the construction of T5 at LHR is complete will this allow more slots into LHR? I have a feeling it is actually due to the runways there at LHR. So when they build the 3rd runway (god only knows when and where there gonna do that!!) I was wondering if BA would move all there London operations to LHR??

No Airline can expand at Heathrow with out buying another slot from another airline. So no, BA can not "expand" on their own free will after T5 is built. T5 however will give the advantage of:

A) bringing all BA operations under one roof.
b) creating much better passenger services and facilities.
c) getting BA passengers out of the hassle of boarding via airstair and not a jetway.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 4):
I think the whole BA london situation is excellent, they would be daft to creat an all LHR base, the split between the two airports is effective and I feel it works well. It also works well in terms of a/c.

Absolutely not. The answer is here, in the post:

Quoting Albird87 (Thread starter):
(cause if you want to fly to one of there long haul destinations from LGW, your connections onwards from LGW are not as great as they are from LHR).

Having two airports in one city complicates EVERYTHING. That is why almost all longhaul international carriers, (except CO, DL, US, and AA) have moved all their operations into one airport, Heathrow. I personally think they should demolish LGW completely, and build two more runways at LHR.
 
BCAL
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 4):
LGW all 737 except GB and a single A319

LGW is 777 (for long-hauls) and 737 (for short hauls). The A319 makes an occasional appearance when it is rotating from LHR, but BA has none of their own A319 based at LGW.

As previously pointed out, some BA flights (notably LGW-DFW) have to operate from LGW under Bermuda II. I think that BA would love to transfer these services to LHR if they could.

As to the future of BA at LGW, this is anybody's guess. Willie Walsh wants Euro Gatwick to start making a contribution towards BA's profits before there is any fleet renewal. However, the unavailability of suitable slots at LHR means that BA will probably remain at LGW for many years yet.
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vv701
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
MCO and TPA are served from LGW as they are leisure routes, mainly O&D traffic (or fed from domestic destinations). As they are also lower yielding there is no real need for BA to operate the flights from LHR where the slots are better utilised on higher yielding premium routes. The same applies to BA's Caribbean network. Nassau, Grand Cayman and Providenciales are only served from LHR because BA uses the 763 on these services, and all these are LHR based.

Yes. And the four aircraft used on the LGW Caribbean and US leisure routes are high density 772s configured for 283 passengers (J40 / W24 / M219) (with 3 crew rest seats). This fleet used to comprise three aircraft (with the fourth, G-VIIT. having been transferred relatively recently) that after delivery were leased by BA to AML (Airline Management Ltd), a joint venture of BA and Flying Colours Group. AML operated them on these routes in BA livery with a high density 383 passenger configuration (J28 / M355). When the JV was discontinued the seating density was reduced to 337 (J42 / M295) before the current configuration was adopted.

By the way the rest of the BA 772 fleet is split into two, some aircraft having their cabins configured in three classes - J36 / W24 / M215 (total 275) - and the rest in four - F14 / J48 / W40 / M122 (total 224).
 
seattleflyer
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 4):
I think the whole BA london situation is excellent, they would be daft to creat an all LHR base, the split between the two airports is effective and I feel it works well.

This does not work well for many connections to Europe from overseas. Especially when you have to transfer between LHR to LGW to make your next flight. Bags cannot be checked through to destination and it adds several hours to minimum connection times. From my point of view, BA would be well served to consolidate all operations to LRH - if only there were room at LRH and Bermuda II was abolished!
 
theginge
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:29 am

I don't think BA will leave Gatwick anytime in the near future as if they did it would leave Gatwick to become even more Orange.

I don't think BA would let Easyjet have that much dominance at somewhere like Gatwick as it would do even more damage to their short haul routes than it is now!
 
Sketty222
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting Theginge (Reply 9):
I don't think BA would let Easyjet have that much dominance at somewhere like Gatwick as it would do even more damage to their short haul routes than it is now!

At the end of the financial year 05/06 I read somewhere that BA were cheaper overall than Easyjet.

BA are far superior to Easyjet and as you say, they would never give them the chance to become dominant at LGW

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3211
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
No Airline can expand at Heathrow with out buying another slot from another airline

Not necessarily. There are still 'spare' slots available. BA also have a few unused slots which they can use for new flights, and they can also use slots currently on short haul flights for new long haul flights.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
I personally think they should demolish LGW completely

You clearly don't know much about aviation in the UK then.

Quoting Albird87 (Thread starter):
(god only knows when and where there gonna do that!!)

There's no doubt where it'll go - to the North, between the airport and the M4 motorway.
 
LGW
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
I personally think they should demolish LGW completely, and build two more runways at LHR.

Oh dear. In an ideal world it would be great if BA could have almost all long hauls and feeding/high yielding short hauls into LHR and LGW can operate as a stand alone airport, similar to how it does now basically low yielding short hauls, leisure routes, domestics freeing up LHR slots and some Caribbean/US routes which have little or no feeding traffic bar a few from domestic pax which primarily target the O&D market and LGW serves a large, often affluent market in the SE of England and to a degree London. Especially given how awful LHR is to get to for so many people.

Leaving LGW would be crazy and a bad idea, I am not saying that because I am biased but because in reality it would make little sense to pulll the whole operation, would be nice if, with open skies BA could choose the routes they wanted to operate with complete freedom but I would be very disappointed and surprised if BA left LGW alltogether, EZY would think all their christmases have come at once if that happened.

As for Mr Walsh wanting LGW to add profits to the BA pot before a fleet renwel, I see his POV and don't completely disagree but it's a vicious circle, the older out s/h fleet becomes and expecially with EZY operating such a modern fleet it hinders our competitiveness, in my view the LGW eurofleet need short term pain and investment to set the operation up well in the long run.

[Edited 2007-01-08 20:29:15]
 
Humberside
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
The addition of a 3rd runway might see BA switch some shorthaul routes from LGW to LHR, but more likely you'll see an expansion of longhaul flights, with exsiting shorthaul making use of the additional short runway.

Of course that is dependent how many slots BA would get on the new runway. Anyone know how they would be allocated, especially with the complication of some flights moving to the new runway with the new slots being created on the existing runways

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
T5 however will give the advantage of:

A) bringing all BA operations under one roof.

I thought all Spain and Italy flights would be moved to T3 on B757's, or is that temporary?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
macilree
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:05 am

Those interested in the current situation with respect to slots and terminal capacity at LHR and other major UK airports will find the Airport Coordination Limited web site has relevant information. The company is responsible for slot allocation in the UK. The web site also has other information like charts of aircraft movements by aircraft type.
John Macilree
 
Glom
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:17 am

Forget BA. BD is the carrier to use. I should know. I've taken one flight with them, which was good, while out of the countless BA flights I've taken, some have been good and some have been bad. So on average, BD is doing better.

But the important thing is that BD's A319s look the greatest.


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Photo © Remi Dallot

 
theginge
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:30 am

I think the Oz flights will be out of T3 as that is where Qantas will be, that is what I last heard anyway.

Most of the time the only spare slots available don;t fit to make pairs, which you need to run in and out of LHR. If you are based at LHR you need a departure and arrival and if not then the other way round.
Airlines having spare slots all the time is rare as you have to use them 80% of the time or you lose them, unless there are circumstances beyond the airlines control, for instance something closing the destination airport that the slot is being used for.

There are ways of increasing long haul by sacrificing a couple of short haul slot pairs and then playing around with the slots to make them fit again.

Looking at the above site for a Friday in Feb there are no departure slots avilable from 0600z to 2100z and also no arrival slots between 0500z so trying to fit in another service is near on impossible!
If Heathrow became 24 hours then there would be many slots freed up, but can;t see that happening!
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 15):
Forget BA. BD is the carrier to use. I should know. I've taken one flight with them, which was good, while out of the countless BA flights I've taken, some have been good and some have been bad. So on average, BD is doing better.

It's hardly a fair comparison or average to compare "countless" to "one", is it?
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
BA787
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 15):
But the important thing is that BD's A319s look the greatest.

Im sure thats whats on every passengers mind when they rate an airline and book a flight  Yeah sure

Tom
 
LGW
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 15):
Forget BA. BD is the carrier to use. I should know. I've taken one flight with them, which was good, while out of the countless BA flights I've taken, some have been good and some have been bad. So on average, BD is doing better.

But the important thing is that BD's A319s look the greatest.

and that's why I love a.net  Yeah sure
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
No Airline can expand at Heathrow with out buying another slot from another airline. So no, BA can not "expand" on their own free will after T5 is built. T5 however will give the advantage of:

A) bringing all BA operations under one roof.
b) creating much better passenger services and facilities.
c) getting BA passengers out of the hassle of boarding via airstair and not a jetway.

T5 will indeed offer better facilities and services, but all of BA operations will not fit in T5 hence the use of T3 (and possibly others) and also not all aircraft at T5 will be served by a jetway and passengers will continue to board by stairs. LHR simply does not have enough room to provide facilities for every aircraft to have a jetway.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
I thought all Spain and Italy flights would be moved to T3 on B757's, or is that temporary?

This is correct, along with the JSA flights to Australia. There will however be more details as to the allocation of BA flights at LHR after 2008 that has yet to be announced. Not all of it will please everyone.
 
BritPilot777
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Theginge (Reply 16):
I think the Oz flights will be out of T3 as that is where Qantas will be, that is what I last heard anyway.

QF and BA flights to Australia will go to Terminal 3 once Terminal 5 opens, as will the Spanish routes. Everything else will move over in phases to Terminal 5 once it opens in March 2008.

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
TLVFred
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:50 am

Will MIA move over from T3 a well then?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:14 pm

The Miami flights will move in on opening day.

see this thread.
BA Move To T5 At LHR To Be Staged. (by TristarSteve Sep 21 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
kaitak744
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
T5 however will give the advantage of:

A) bringing all BA operations under one roof.

I thought all Spain and Italy flights would be moved to T3 on B757's, or is that temporary?

Spain and Italy will be T3 until T5C is built. Once that happens, just the SYD flights and the British airways subsidiary, BMED, will be at T3.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 20):
T5 will indeed offer better facilities and services, but all of BA operations will not fit in T5 hence the use of T3 (and possibly others) and also not all aircraft at T5 will be served by a jetway and passengers will continue to board by stairs. LHR simply does not have enough room to provide facilities for every aircraft to have a jetway.

Well, as stated, Just the 2x daily SYD and the BMED flights will not be in T5.
By the looks of this picture:

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Photo © Paul Massey


It seems only 2 "non-jetway" gates at each concourse, leaving a total of 4. (plus maybe a couple at T5A). This means that the planes which stay at Heathrow for a long time can be towed to these spaces to wait. When it is time to leave, they are towed back to the jetway gate to reload. So, if not too many flights overlap, BA could manage having an all-jetway operation at LHR.
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1735
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 24):
Spain and Italy will be T3 until T5C is built. Once that happens, just the SYD flights and the British airways subsidiary, BMED, will be at T3.

What will happen to GB airways flights. They serve Morocco, Portugal and Spain from LHR. Will they all move to T5 or split the flights between T5 and T3?
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SapphireLHR
Posts: 102
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
c) getting BA passengers out of the hassle of boarding via airstair and not a jetway.

This is not quite correct, as there will still be a number "remote" stands that will have to use airstairs. T5A will have 4 remotes, T5B will have 2 remotes and T5C will have 6 remotes. The EAA (effectivly T5D) will have all remote stands, approx 13. Although not really concidered a passenger terminal if required at peak times, could be used for departing flights but all passengers will require coaching to these stands.
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 23):
The Miami flights will move in on opening day.

see this thread.

BA Move To T5 At LHR To Be Staged. (by TristarSteve Sep 21 2006 in Civil Aviation)

From the most recent information, it appears that a much longer transition period is being considered. The exact details will be known in a few weeks.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 24):
It seems only 2 "non-jetway" gates at each concourse, leaving a total of 4. (plus maybe a couple at T5A). This means that the planes which stay at Heathrow for a long time can be towed to these spaces to wait. When it is time to leave, they are towed back to the jetway gate to reload. So, if not too many flights overlap, BA could manage having an all-jetway operation at LHR.

The current forecast calls for approximately 20% off-pier operations in the initial stage and with the opening of T5C, this is predicted to be reduced to less than 10%. Under any plan, there will still be a need to caoch passengers to the aircraft, even if only on a limited basis.
 
vv701
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting LGW" class=quote target=_blank>LGW (Reply 12):
As for Mr Walsh wanting LGW to add profits to the BA pot before a fleet renewal, I see his POV and don't completely disagree but it's a vicious circle, the older out s/h fleet becomes and expecially with EZY operating such a modern fleet it hinders our competitiveness, in my view the LGW eurofleet need short term pain and investment to set the operation up well in the long run.

If by 'competitiveness' you mean economic competitiveness this is not necessarily true. This is because aircraft have a high capital or rental cost that declines with age. This decline may be less, equal to or more than the savings attributable to using new aircraft because, for example their better fuel efficiency.
If by 'competitiveness' you mean commercial competitiveness, this is not true. You and I may know approximately how old each aircraft in the BA fleet is, but most customers do not. So if a non-aircraft enthusiast flew LHR-JFK in BA's oldest 744, G-BNLA, just after it had had its cabins updated to include the new Club World seat and then flew home in their youngest 744, G-BYGG, he or she is likely to incorrectly deduce that the youngest aircraft was the oldest and vice-versa.

With capital or rental cost being so important in the cost mix, BA have a policy (clearly stated in, for example, their 2006 Annual Report) of using their aircraft until they are between 15 and 25 years old.

Of course a significant part of the BA LGW fleet is leased. But the original leases on the 733s and 735s were for five years and have all been relatively recently renewed (for how long?). Certainly those renewals will have been at reduced leasing rates meaning that BA's LGW operations saw a sudden reduction in costs over a relatively short time period (as the leases were all started at around the same time).
 
LGWspeedbird
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:29 am

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
But the original leases on the 733s and 735s were for five years and have all been relatively recently renewed (for how long?).

There should be a decision made soon on the fleet renewal as I think a deadline was set for spring 2007.

Quoting LGW" class=quote target=_blank>LGW (Reply 12):
As for Mr Walsh wanting LGW to add profits to the BA pot before a fleet renwel, I see his POV and don't completely disagree but it's a vicious circle, the older out s/h fleet becomes and expecially with EZY operating such a modern fleet it hinders our competitiveness, in my view the LGW eurofleet need short term pain and investment to set the operation up well in the long run.

I think Mr Walsh know's what he wants to do with LGW we shall have to wait and see what it is, but if LHR can't expand for a while due to slot restrictions etc then it looks better for LGW.
upcoming flights LHR-LAX-HNL-SFO-LHR
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting LGWspeedbird (Reply 29):
I think Mr Walsh know's what he wants to do with LGW we shall have to wait and see what it is, but if LHR can't expand for a while due to slot restrictions etc then it looks better for LGW.

I don't know if they have a plan for LGW. They are axing routes, adding others which are odd. LGW seems to be dedicated to point to point holiday routes but will this strategy work when we know the orange aircraft are invading LGW ????
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BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 30):

Thats true, Ive noticed that a ot of the LGW flights are holiday based, LHR still has its fair share, but I dont see as many business flights at LGW.
 
theginge
Posts: 496
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RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:59 am

I wonder if GB Airways will end up doing more of BA's Gatwick routes as a way of cutting costs from the mainline operation?

BA would still have a short haul presence at Gatwick but without the costs of actually having to run it!!
 
Shamrock_747
Posts: 1499
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:25 am

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Theginge (Reply 32):
BA would still have a short haul presence at Gatwick but without the costs of actually having to run it!!

BA's shorthaul Gatwick operation already has a very low cost base compared to the rest of the airline, at least in terms of cabin crew complements/pay and catering in Euro Traveller. Probably comparable with GT.

Although if the 737 leases were not renewed, and no replacement ordered, I could see an enlarged GT operation.
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting Shamrock_747 (Reply 33):
BA's shorthaul Gatwick operation already has a very low cost base compared to the rest of the airline, at least in terms of cabin crew complements/pay and catering in Euro Traveller. Probably comparable with GT.

Although if the 737 leases were not renewed, and no replacement ordered, I could see an enlarged GT operation

But are there any terms or conditions with those franchise agreements : if GT decides to stop flying for BA, will it go away with all these routes or does BA have the right to fly some of them with their own metal?

Remember when Regional Air of Kenya suspended operations, a lot of routes were simply axed and passengers left stranded in Africa. At the end of the day, customer will only blame BA for that and not the franchisee...
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: BA And T5 At LHR

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 34):
if GT decides to stop flying for BA, will it go away with all these routes or does BA have the right to fly some of them with their own metal?

AFAIK the routes and licences belong to GT. Therefore if the BA franchise was to end, GT has the right to continue operations on the routes with their own metal.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."

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