T773ER
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When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:47 am

Its almost certain that the 787-10 will be built, because both Mike Bair and Randy Baseler have eluded to its production. I think the real question is not if, but when it will be launched formally.

How long will they wait to annouce it, and will that effect upcoming orders from lets say EK?
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LY777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:52 am

I think it will be launched later this year.Be patient!
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NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:54 am

EK might be the one that will launch it. My opinion is that EK will launch the 787-10 with an order for 100. I think soon after that many other carriers will come on line for this plane including BA, SQ, CX, QF among them.
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zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:55 am

I expect the 787-10 to be launched not later than Le Bourget.
 
kaitak
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:56 am

Like LY777, I think it will be this year. Indeed, I would be extremely surprised if it weren't. I think that there are a number of critically important order battles to take place this year, most notably EK for the 787-10 versus the A350-900/1000. I expect EK to be a launch customer for this and one of the early launchies for the 747-8 pax model (most likely, in EK's case, a shortened version). BA, Cathay and a number of other airlines can be expected to follow suit.
 
T773ER
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 1):
Be patient!

But I can't wait!  gasp 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
My opinion is that EK will launch the 787-10 with an order for 100

Seems like a lot, but you never know with EK.
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NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting T773ER (Reply 5):
Seems like a lot, but you never know with EK.

True but I'm going with what they have publically stated. Also it is rumored that the A380 compensation talks are not going well between Airbus and EK. This might have some possible positive ramifications for Boeing and their order book.
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T773ER
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
Also it is rumored that the A380 compensation talks are not going well between Airbus and EK

Do you happen to have a link or anything else about this. I would love to know what is going on. I was under the assumption that the talks were over, silly me.
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NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting T773ER (Reply 7):
Do you happen to have a link or anything else about this. I would love to know what is going on. I was under the assumption that the talks were over, silly me.

I'll try to find a link and send it to you.
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Rheinbote
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:34 am

Don't know about launch, but -10 EIS was quoted as being scheduled for late 2012 by a recent BCA airline presentation.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
Also it is rumored that the A380 compensation talks are not going well between Airbus and EK. This might have some possible positive ramifications for Boeing and their order book.

You never know. This could have a major impact on both the 787 or A-350 programs, and each manufacturer knows it. They are no doubt fighting it out behind the scenes, fully cognicent of the ramifications.

With potentially a 100 frame order hanging on the outcome, Airbus will fight hard to satisfy EK if for no other reason than to keep the 787 out of the EK fleet.
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ikramerica
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:29 am

Considering how damaged EK has been by Airbus recently due to the A380 delays, and their commitment to 100 planes, I think the two outcomes are:

50x A350-1000 + 50x 787-10
or
100x 787-10

I don't think Airbus has a chance to win the whole order. It's too risky for EK. But EK may not want to depend on B for 100 jets either, so there could be a lot going on behind the scenes of EK trying to extort a good deal from A...
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 am

I think EK will be a launch customer, but perhaps, just perhaps, LH will surprise us and be the first one to announce. No inside info, mind you, but I think they can find a home for her and the 787-9 now, while still finding a home for the A350X-900 and A350X-1000 later so a 787 order will not be a "winner take all" for LH going forward.
 
T773ER
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
Considering how damaged EK has been by Airbus recently due to the A380 delays, and their commitment to 100 planes, I think the two outcomes are:

50x A350-1000 + 50x 787-10
or
100x 787-10

With the A380 delays, Airbus has damaged their reputation with EK and other airlines who had ordered the A380. EK placed an order for an all new airplane the A380 from Airbus, and it is now two years late and causing many headaches. I think they will hesitate to order another all new untested program from Airbus, the A350.

I believe Boeing will get the initial order compromised of mostly 787-10's. After the A350-1000 has been built, EK will then consider buying the 1000 to replace their 777-200's, and maybe some A340's. But this intial order will most likely fall in Boeings court.
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:52 pm

I guess I don't see a slamdunk for Boeing on the EK order. Despite all of the problems with the A380, I think most will agree that they are getting their house back in order and that the A350XWB will be a fine aircraft.

I agree with Ikramerica that a split is more likely than an all-A350 order, but I don't think EK is so wounded by Airbus that they wouldn't take on this new plane. The question, as always, would seem to be price and delivery, and not so much bad sentiment over the 380, IMHO.

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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting T773ER (Reply 13):
I believe Boeing will get the initial order compromised of mostly 787-10's. After the A350-1000 has been built, EK will then consider buying the 1000 to replace their 777-200's, and maybe some A340's. But this intial order will most likely fall in Boeings court.

So, what's EK's big hurry? Why not wait till after the 787's first flight in August, and a few more weeks to get some hard data? Also they can see where the A350 is at that point i.e. have the Power8 impacts been taken, and have the decisions about who gets to build the A350 been made? EK seems to be masterful about keeping their options open as long as possible.
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flydreamliner
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:24 pm

Jeeze, a fourth variant before the first of the model flies.... pressure pressure.

They'll launch it when 2 things happen:

A) They get a large, prestigious order, so like 50 or 60 or more from EK or someone of the like.

B) a big airshow to kick it off in a media frenzy.

If they can get things together with Emirates, the Paris Airshow would be a most poetic place to launch this aircraft.
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cba
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:37 pm

Been out of the loop lately, I'm presuming the 787-10 is a larger 787-9, say 300+ pax?
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
They'll launch it when 2 things happen:

A) They get a large, prestigious order, so like 50 or 60 or more from EK or someone of the like.

B) a big airshow to kick it off in a media frenzy.

20 to 30 frames would be fine for a launch order, whether at or before the airshow.

Quoting Cba (Reply 17):
I'm presuming the 787-10 is a larger 787-9, say 300+ pax?

It's expected to be a 20 foot (6 meter) stretch of the 787-9. The cabin floor area would be 4-5% larger than that of the 777-200ER (291 vs 279 sq meters). Payload would be the same or slightly higher. Range would be slightly better. It would carry the same number of LD3s as the 777-300ER (44). Fuel consumption would be roughly 20% lower than for the 777-200ER, despite better performance.

[Edited 2007-01-10 06:51:39]
 
hz747300
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 17):
Been out of the loop lately, I'm presuming the 787-10 is a larger 787-9, say 300+ pax?

I believe it has been listed as a 772ER killer.
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zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 19):
I believe it has been listed as a 772ER killer.

Yes, it will kill the 777-200ER and the A340-600. It will be sized between the two and will offer better performance and dramatically better economics than either. Because CASM is generally much more important than capacity, some airlines will choose the 787-10 which otherwise would have chosen the 777-300ER.

Cabin floor areas:
777-200ER: 279.0 sq meters
787-10: 291.0 (4.3% larger than the 777-200ER)
A340-600: 314.2 (7.9% larger than the 787-10)
777-300ER: 330.4 (5.2% larger than the A340-600)
 
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 17):
Been out of the loop lately, I'm presuming the 787-10 is a larger 787-9, say 300+ pax?

Its being built as a B772 replacement.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Yes, it will kill the 777-200ER and the A340-600.

I seriously doubt the B787-10 will kill the A346, as thats what the B773ER is doing, and is doing an excellent job also. Could a B787-11 replace the B773ER/A346? The B787-10 will be an A342/A343 killer thou
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zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
Its being built as a B772 replacement.

Sort of. In many ways, the 787-9 and 777-200ER are nearer to each other than the 777-200ER and the 787-10. Examples are seating capacity ((assuming the standard 9 abreast in both cases) as the cabin lengths are 48.7, 49.4, and 54.8 meters for the 787-9, 777-200ER, and 787-10 respectively) and LD3 capacity 32, 36, and 44 for the 777-200ER, 787-9, and 787-10 respectively).

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
I seriously doubt the B787-10 will kill the A346, as thats what the B773ER is doing, and is doing an excellent job also.

The 777-300ER is very effectively competing with the A340-600 from the top, but is not killing it. The 787-10 will compete even more effectively from the bottom and, together, that will be the death of the A340-600. Until the 787-10 is available, the A340-600 will continue to win orders, as it did last month with LH.
 
columba
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:30 pm

It will be launched when either BA, EK or LH have decided on whether they take the -10 or not and honestly I see a high possibility that all three of them are choosing Airbus instead !
2007 will be an interesting year !!
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
Could a B787-11 replace the B773ER/A346?

I think that the -11 would start to suffer the same "very long thin tube" structural issues that the A346 does and it would also need extensive modifications of the the wings ans undercarriage.
 
Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
EK might be the one that will launch it. My opinion is that EK will launch the 787-10 with an order for 100. I

Why not 200?  sarcastic 
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 24):
I think that the -11 would start to suffer the same "very long thin tube" structural issues that the A346 does

No, while the 787-11 would be about the same length as the A340-600, it's fuselage height is 235 inches versus 222 for the latter. That makes quite a difference. However, the bigger difference is that CFRP is inherently much more rigid than aluminium. (While it would not be practical for other reasons, even an 80 meter long 787-12 would not suffer serious rigidity problems.)

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 24):
it would also need extensive modifications of the the wings ans undercarriage.

A 787-11 would need strengthening of the wings. No big deal. It would need extensive redesign of the undercarriage including either the addition of a two-wheel centre bogey or a change to six-wheel maingear bogeys.
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 25):
Why not 200?

Because EK has stated publically that they intend to order 100 mid size aircrzft. Don't you read the news?  banghead 
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Stitch
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
So, what's EK's big hurry? Why not wait till after the 787's first flight in August, and a few more weeks to get some hard data? Also they can see where the A350 is at that point...EK seems to be masterful about keeping their options open as long as possible.

EK has a very aggressive growth schedule and they are already feeling the pinch of not having their A388s. The longer they wait, the more airlines get in front of them for 787 deliveries. EK may already have deposits secured for a 787-10 launch and are just waiting to execute them for the reasons you note, but if they wait too long, they may find themselves flying 772ERs and 773ERs as 2015 approaches against competitors flying 787s and undercutting them on price and stealing their traffic, blunting that growth.
 
Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 27):
Because EK has stated publically that they intend to order 100 mid size aircrzft. Don't you read the news?

Very doubtful it will be 100 of exactly the same type.
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
Very doubtful it will be 100 of exactly the same type.

I would not be surprised to see EK order 100 787-10s. If that happens on the expected schedule, Boeing will have sold 600+ before first flight! (No, I don't think Boeing will open a 2nd final assembly line.)
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
Very doubtful it will be 100 of exactly the same type.

Well EK has indicated themselves that they will not split the order. Whether that remains to be true will be known when they announce the order.
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Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 31):
Well EK has indicated themselves that they will not split the order

How I understand that is that they don't intend to get both A350 and B787. Does not mean that they will get 100 identical aircraft.

50 A350-900 and 50 A350-1000 would fit them best  stirthepot 

[Edited 2007-01-10 15:55:39]
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 32):
How I see that - they don't intend to get both A350 and B787. Does not mean that they will get 100 identical aircraft.

50 A350-900 and 50 A350-1000 would fit them best.

Ok when I said split meaning they won't split the order between manufacturers. That is what is coming from EK. They could order a mix of the type like 25 788, 25, 789s and 50 787-10s. That I agree with you. They want to mix and match so they have different aircraft for different missions.
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nijltje
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:59 pm

NYC do you already have a link?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 32):
50 A350-900 and 50 A350-1000 would fit them best

Perhaps, if they were available for delivery in 2011.
 
Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
Perhaps, if they were available for delivery in 2011.

They will likely still be earlier that 787-10 (if it is launched).
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 36):
They will likely still be earlier that 787-10 (if it is launched).

Well it is going to be launched (it's a matter of when not if) and Boeing has said that they can deliver it as early as 2012 which is still earlier than the first version of the A350. Boeing still has a leg up on Airbus.

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 34):
NYC do you already have a link?

Sorry I tried looking but I can't find one.
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Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 37):
Well it is going to be launched (it's a matter of when not if) and Boeing has said that they can deliver it as early as 2012 which is still earlier than the first version of the A350. Boeing still has a leg up on Airbus.

Theoretically they might be able to construct it by 2012. The problem is availability of production slots with 788 and 789 selling like hot cakes.
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 38):
The problem is availability of production slots with 788 and 789 selling like hot cakes.

You think EK haven't put down deposits on 787 slots?  rotfl 
 
Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
You think EK haven't put down deposits on 787 slots?

You and few others seem to think that there is infinite number of 787 slots between 2009-2011. BA, LH, UA, AA, EK - they all have some secret slots reserved for.

[Edited 2007-01-10 16:19:56]
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
Quoting Danny (Reply 38):
The problem is availability of production slots with 788 and 789 selling like hot cakes.


You think EK haven't put down deposits on 787 slots?

Exactly. EK would have been seriously screwed in the head not to reserve slots for such a hot selling plane. They're trying to wring as much money as they can from the OEMs. In the end I think EK will go with Boeing. The order will probably be announced at Paris this summer....a long time to wait.
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Danny
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 41):
In the end I think EK will go with Boeing. The order will probably be announced at Paris this summer

Le Bourget in the end was always Boeing show wasn't it? Big grin
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 41):
In the end I think EK will go with Boeing.

Boeing have the advantage of less schedule risk, but the deal offered will still determine who wins the order. I'd give Boeing only about a 60-70% chance to win the EK order.
 
A520
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30):
No, I don't think Boeing will open a 2nd final assembly line.

What makes you think that? And what are the consequences for this market? More even split between 787/350 due to availability (a la 737/320)?
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting A520 (Reply 44):
What makes you think that?

The final assembly line now being built has four assembly stations. That means, in theory, four 787s can be built simultaneously. The goal is to get final assembly time down to 3 days. That means, in theory, without allowing for downtime, Boeing could produce 40 per month without a 2nd assembly line. In practice, with allowances for downtime and other operational considerations, the limit is probably more like 25 per month. That's 300 per year. I can't see any need for more.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 23):
It will be launched when either BA, EK or LH have decided on whether they take the -10 or not and honestly I see a high possibility that all three of them are choosing Airbus instead !
2007 will be an interesting year !!

Whatever makes you think BA is going to up and buy Airbus for long haul all of a sudden in the face of a superior Boeing product confuses me. LH very well could, but EK has more or less commissioned the 787-10, and at the end of the day, it is a more advanced design - using barrel technology for its composites, rather than a conventional stringer and body panel design like airbus is using and just using composite body panels.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 24):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
Could a B787-11 replace the B773ER/A346?

I think that the -11 would start to suffer the same "very long thin tube" structural issues that the A346 does and it would also need extensive modifications of the the wings ans undercarriage.

The A346 has a very high OEW because the structure needed extreme bolstering to stand up to that length with its narrow cross section. The length would present no problem for the wider, composite fuselage. The stronger wings are not really an issue either, however it would need - basically the 777-200LR/300ER's landing gear.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 24):
it would also need extensive modifications of the the wings ans undercarriage.

A 787-11 would need strengthening of the wings. No big deal. It would need extensive redesign of the undercarriage including either the addition of a two-wheel centre bogey or a change to six-wheel maingear bogeys.

Really, how hard would it be for them to fit what amounts to basically a 777 undercarriage with six wheel bogeys?

Quoting Danny (Reply 29):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 27):
Because EK has stated publically that they intend to order 100 mid size aircrzft. Don't you read the news?

Very doubtful it will be 100 of exactly the same type.

Right, because they didn't order like 43 A380s at once before, or anything like that. And at the VERY slow and delayed rate at which they are delivered, I think 100 787s could easily be delivered sooner than 43 A380s from time of order.

Quoting Danny (Reply 32):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 31):
Well EK has indicated themselves that they will not split the order

How I understand that is that they don't intend to get both A350 and B787. Does not mean that they will get 100 identical aircraft.

50 A350-900 and 50 A350-1000 would fit them best stirthepot

Not really.... they said midsize. They probably don't want to wait another decade till A350-1000 has its kinks worked out and starts production. A350-1000 is in no way midsize either. I'm very confident we will see 787 demonstrate superior operating economics as well.

Quoting Danny (Reply 36):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
Perhaps, if they were available for delivery in 2011.

They will likely still be earlier that 787-10 (if it is launched).

Not even close. Look at what on-time has meant at toulouse lately. People should already have been flying on A380s, they should be rolling out for delivery to all over the world starting now. A350 was originally going to make first flight, what - the end of next year, now it's what, 4 years from now? It'll be 8 years, easily, before A350-1000 production has its kinks out and is rolling at full speed.

Also, the assembly methods of 787, which due to structural design, could not be done on A350, allow it to be produced much more quickly (assuming all the parts can be made fast enough, they can assemble the 787s faster to no end).

Quoting Danny (Reply 40):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
You think EK haven't put down deposits on 787 slots?

You and few others seem to think that there is infinite number of 787 slots between 2009-2011. BA, LH, UA, AA, EK - they all have some secret slots reserved for.

That's simple minded. UA and AA don't want slots RIGHT AWAY, and they for sure are going to want their rate of delivery to be slow, they don't have cash coming out the wazoo, they need to pace themselves, and they will. Bear in mind, AA, UA, and DL combined fly roughly 500 767s and 772s which all will eventually - very likely - be replaced with 787s.... but that's going to be a better than 10 year long transition. EK will want theirs in a hurry, BA probably won't be too sluggish either, and I'm not sure LH will order from boeing. Either way, Boeing's subocontractors are working hard to increase their production, and Boeing can assemble 787s as fast as they can get the components. That's the beauty of the 3 day final assembly program.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 41):
In the end I think EK will go with Boeing.

Boeing have the advantage of less schedule risk, but the deal offered will still determine who wins the order. I'd give Boeing only about a 60-70% chance to win the EK order.

I don't know, they more or less commissioned the 787-10 to bed built, I think it is theirs to lose. Also, Boeing has the money on hand that they can offer a fantastic deal, as well as the lower list prices of the 787.... please also consider airbus has their hands tied on how good of a deal they can offer due to the very weak dollar, which all aircraft sale transactions are conducted in, and the fact they are paying out all of their costs in the now very strong euro.

Quoting A520 (Reply 44):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30):
No, I don't think Boeing will open a 2nd final assembly line.

What makes you think that? And what are the consequences for this market? More even split between 787/350 due to availability (a la 737/320)?

They don't need a second line. One line can produce as quickly as is needed for 787, the limiting factor is getting the components from the subcontractors, they can only produce as fast as their slowest subcontractor, but Boeing can assemble these very quickly.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 46):
a conventional stringer and body panel design like airbus is using and just using composite body panels.

It's really not fair to call it a conventional design. The panels are about 100 times larger than aluminium panels and contribute a lot more to fuselage rigidity than in a conventional design.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 46):
Really, how hard would it be for them to fit what amounts to basically a 777 undercarriage with six wheel bogeys?

Obviously, there is some engineering work involved, but it can be done.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 46):
the assembly methods of 787, which due to structural design, could not be done on A350, allow it to be produced much more quickly (assuming all the parts can be made fast enough, they can assemble the 787s faster to no end).

The lead time is not so interesting to a customer. The customer only cares about when can he get the aircraft. Airbus have demonstrated an ability to produce 30 A320s per month, reliably.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 46):
they are paying out all of their costs in the now very strong euro.

No, Airbus pay out a lot in other currencies including the dollar, just as Boeing pay out in a lot of currencies including the euro. While Airbus has more exposure to the euro than do Boeing, it is not as extreme as one might think.
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 47):
The panels are about 100 times larger than aluminium panels

At 12-20m, A350 CFRP skin panels would be 2-3 times longer than aluminum panels - at best. Aluminum panel length is a matter of material and manufacturing cost optimisation and less a matter of feasibility. A330 wing skin panels are single piece today, even longer than A350 CFRP fuselage panels might ever be.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 45):
The final assembly line now being built has four assembly stations. That means, in theory, four 787s can be built simultaneously.

Nope, that would imply that four complete streams of (sub)assemblies flow into the manufacturing line, which is not the case. Apart from that, the four positions are in sequence, not in parallel.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):
CFRP is inherently much more rigid than aluminium

That's a misleading statement, as e.g. the CFRP 787 wing is more flexible than the metal wing of the A330. While material stiffness obviously plays a role, stiffness or 'rigidity' is primarily a matter of design principles.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Sort of. In many ways, the 787-9 and 777-200ER are nearer to each other than the 777-200ER and the 787-10.

According to what Boeing is showing to airlines,the 787-9 is pretty much matching the A345 in payload range, with the 787-10 very close to the 777-200ER (@~320 PAX three-class)

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 19):
I believe it has been listed as a 772ER killer.



Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
Its being built as a B772 replacement.

 checkmark 

I don't get why so many fellow posters are so obsessed with a 787-11

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 24):
I think that the -11 would start to suffer the same "very long thin tube" structural issues that the A346 does and it would also need extensive modifications of the the wings and undercarriage.

That's what I assume. Adding a body landing gear or relocating the rear bulkhead of the wheel bay toaccommodate a six-wheel bogey is certainly quite a hassle. The issue with pencil fuselages is not so much in static strength but in strucutral dynamics, which affects the whole configuration (e.g. change in stabilizer AoA due to fuselage bending under gust load). I wouldn't subscribe to the claim that the 787 wing would only need minor mods to cope with 787-11 weights.
 
NYC777
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RE: When Will The 787-10 Be Launched

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:51 am

Well Boeing has said publically that there is no intention of building a further strecth of hte 787 beyond the -10. That means any followon to the 777 will have to be aY3. I suspect that Boeing will be aiming fora very wide fuselage to perhaps accomodate 10 to 12 abreast seats each 18-19 inches across.

I think the Y3 will be for the 350 to 500 seat market and will obviously be an all CFRP aircraft perhaps even taking it to the next level in terms of the use of composites.

As it stands I think the 787-10 will be just as long as the 77W only because it is narrower than the 777 and to size it to fit 300-310 it will have to be very long.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.