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Aaron747
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747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:18 pm

The 787 is nearing the final stage in her early development. This evening the 747LCF arrived in Nagoya to pick up the first fuselage and wing sections for transport to the US. Tomorrow she will be loaded and Friday she'll depart for South Carolina to pick up two other components before being flown to Everett, WA to begin prototype assembly.

Despite terrible wind chill and a lengthy arrival delay, I greeted the LCF on Centrair's skydeck along with several hundred other photographers and employees of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Aisin-Seiki, and numerous other industrial heavyweights in Nagoya contributing to Boeing's newest commercial product.

Apologies for the awful night shots...we were expecting arrival around an hour before sunset and I didn't bring my tripod.

3:30 pm...the pros are already setting up

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887943/original.jpg

the specialized loader is in position (the road Mitsubishi built to carry her wings from the delivery barge to the apron can be seen in the background)

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887942/large.jpg

As dusk settles, workers gather to greet the LCF

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887944/original.jpg

The sun sets over chilly Ise Bay

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887953/large.jpg

Boeing 876 has yet to arrive one hour past the scheduled arrival time

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887945/original.jpg

Finally, at 5:45 local, she touches down smoothly on runway 36 and taxies in

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887946/original.jpg

Eager staff from Boeing, MHI and KHI welcome the Dreamlifter

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887948/large.jpg

A flurry of activity begins at Spot 403

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887949/original.jpg

Nagoya looks forward to seeing the LCF much more often after tonight

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/72887950/original.jpg

[Edited 2007-01-10 14:21:06]
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mspguy
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:21 pm

you going to be able to get shots of the bird being loaded?
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Aaron747
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:23 pm

No, unfortunately can't take two days off just for the LCF  hissyfit 

I'm going back Friday for her departure. There will be many chances to catch her being loaded around here though.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
centrair
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:27 pm

Aaron You are the Man!

Wish I could have been there. I was in Nagoya this morning but had to go home. Man I wish I could take work off tomorrow....no classes but lots of work.

I bet some of the other Japanese Aviation nuts in the area will be overtaking the skydeck and Parking lot 3 over the next few days.
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NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:28 pm

Thanks for the great pics Aaron! I'm not ssure if you'll be getting any pics of the loading. I would think that they would load the sections dueing the middle of the night so the LCF can turn around and leave NAgoya in the morningtime. I think it'll go to Charleston and drop off the barrel and wing box but I'm not sure if it'll go direct to Italy to pic up the fuselage barrels produced there and then back to Charleston or if those barrels are not yet ready it might just fly back to Seattle from Charleston.
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redflyer
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:28 pm

Interesting that she's not painted in the official colors yet.
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jasond
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:33 pm

excellent pics, thanks a lot Aaron747, they don't appear to have applied a livery to it yet?
 
NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
she'll depart for South Carolina to pick up two other components before being flown to Everett, WA to begin prototype assembly

I think the other fuselage sections you're talking about are made in Italy. The Dreamlifter will fly them from Italy to Charleston to be joined with the fuselage section and the center wing box produced in Japan. That entire assembly is then flown by the Dreamlifter to Everett. Vought is producing the rear fuselage section also in Charleston but that won't be joined to the main fuselage section until that part is flown to Everett.
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NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Interesting that she's not painted in the official colors yet.



Quoting Jasond (Reply 6):
they don't appear to have applied a livery to it yet?

I think Boeing said that it'll be painted by the end of this month. The second one is supposed to be done and already painted.
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Revelation
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
I bet some of the other Japanese Aviation nuts in the area will be overtaking the skydeck and Parking lot 3 over the next few days.

I hope we get to see pics. Maybe some of the 'pro' pictures will turn up on the web too. Thanks to all of you taking time off to get some pics for us.

It's a shame the ship is in the 'pickle' color scheme. So this must be the 2nd LCF. Did the ship ever travel to Seattle, or did it hop from China to Japan directly?
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Aaron747
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:43 pm

Pro pictures will undoubtedly turn up but it would be rare for Japanese photographers to post their materials on a.net. As soon as there's information about a possible departure time, I'll begin planning for Friday.

The LCF flew from PAE to NGO today. It was never in China either - the structural conversion work was done in Taipei.
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jasond
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
but it would be rare for Japanese photographers to post their materials on a.net.

why is that?
 
NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
So this must be the 2nd LCF.

Nope it's the first one. The 2nd one is still in Taiwan and it'll be painted before it leaves Taipei for Seattle later on this month.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Did the ship ever travel to Seattle, or did it hop from China to Japan directly?

Nope it went from Boeing Field (BFI) to NGO. It's supposed to go to Charleston after being loaded. I'm not sure where it goes after that.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
The LCF flew from PAE to NGO today.

Minor point, it actually flew from BFI to NGO.

[Edited 2007-01-10 14:50:45]
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Aaron747
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Jasond (Reply 11):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
but it would be rare for Japanese photographers to post their materials on a.net.

why is that?

Japan has a huge aviation community and there are multiple photoblogs and BBS dealing with airliners. A.net is known here but it doesn't have a large following mainly due to language barrier and the Japanese community's self-supporting photo and information networks.
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RuudOnline
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:13 pm

Nice pics Aaron747,

Could you give us a couple of links from Japanese websites/blogs with photos of the 747LCF?

Ruud
 
jasond
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Japan has a huge aviation community and there are multiple photoblogs and BBS dealing with airliners. A.net is known here but it doesn't have a large following mainly due to language barrier and the Japanese community's self-supporting photo and information networks.

Thanks for that, my daughter is learning japanese at school and is very good at it. we are hoping she will get exceptionally good at it, get a job there and treat us to a holiday one day  Smile
 
zvezda
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:47 pm

I hope they are painted with three rows of windows.  Smile
 
beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Tomorrow she will be loaded and Friday she'll depart for South Carolina to pick up two other components before being flown to Everett, WA to begin prototype assembly.

There will be NO prototype for the 787 just like the 777. I know that word seems to get used loosely but all the aircraft that will be used in testing WILL be delivered to customers. Technically the one they break is not a complete aircraft anyways, and is not prototype but built to exact specs.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Interesting that she's not painted in the official colors yet.



Quoting Jasond (Reply 6):
excellent pics, thanks a lot Aaron747, they don't appear to have applied a livery to it yet?

She will be painted here at PAE once the 2nd LCF comes online and can do the trips for it.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
I think Boeing said that it'll be painted by the end of this month. The second one is supposed to be done and already painted.

This is correct, in fact it was partly painted(engines, tail areas) before they started rebuilding it.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
Nope it's the first one. The 2nd one is still in Taiwan and it'll be painted before it leaves Taipei for Seattle later on this month.

 checkmark 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
Nope it went from Boeing Field (BFI) to NGO. It's supposed to go to Charleston after being loaded. I'm not sure where it goes after that.

If there is something ready in Italy that needs to come to Charleston, SC it will be heading there, if not i'm sure they will be bringing her home.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
I hope they are painted with three rows of windows.

I still enjoy the Oscar Mayar Weener picture.  Smile
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warowl40
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:08 am

My parents live in Charleston, so I would love to have my Dad go out and get some pictures! Any idea how someone could get more detailed info on when it might make it's first trip to CHS?
 
beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Warowl40 (Reply 18):
My parents live in Charleston, so I would love to have my Dad go out and get some pictures! Any idea how someone could get more detailed info on when it might make it's first trip to CHS?

The parts are scheduled to be delivered ON the 12th to CHS. Time will only be known once the flight plan is filed.

Watch for Boeing flight 876 (BOE876) on like Flightaware.com That is the aircraft.
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ikramerica
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:29 am

Is this first delivery flight considered part of the certification process? Proving it can do what it is designed to do and all that?
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tozairport
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
The second one is supposed to be done and already painted.

True statement. I taxied by the Evergreen hangar in TPE last week and the 2nd airplane was in the hangar with the "dreamlifter" titles on.
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beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
Is this first delivery flight considered part of the certification process? Proving it can do what it is designed to do and all that?

Since its not certified yet... every second its got the engines powered up will be logged into the system and be used as proof to the FAA as certification.  Smile
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NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
Is this first delivery flight considered part of the certification process? Proving it can do what it is designed to do and all that?

I don't think so.

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 21):
True statement. I taxied by the Evergreen hangar in TPE last week and the 2nd airplane was in the hangar with the "dreamlifter" titles on.

And you didn't get any pictures!!!!!????????
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FXMD11
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:08 am

Aaron 747 - you are definitily the man. This is great work and thanks a lot
for making the effort sharing these pictures. Keep warm out there. Well done
 
beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 23):
And you didn't get any pictures!!!!!????????

He was taxiing by... LOL The last thing on my mind is "get the camera!" instead of "keep it on center."  Wink

Plus EGAT is not too keen on people sneaking pics of their factory...
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highflyer9790
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:28 am

So when again is the first flight expected? i really am eccstatic- great news for the 787!
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zvezda
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 26):
So when again is the first flight expected?

I think it's rollout in July and first flight in August.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 23):
And you didn't get any pictures!!!!!????????

I might be able to head out to TPE this weekend and see if I can get pics -- 500 mm lens should suffice Big grin

Bren
 
sstsomeday
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:11 am

There have been / will be two of these LCFs built, is that correct?

I wonder how it would effect production if one of these birds were badly damaged or (God forbid), crashed?

Boeing has a lot riding on both these A/C remaining serviceable. I wonder if they estimated the odds of one LCF crashing vs the cost of building a spare?Even one being out of commission for a few weeks after, let's say, a ramp collision would seriously delay distribution and production. Also, considering its heavy cargo and the heavy equipment to load and unload it, it seems a ramp accident causing some damage to the A/C is within the realm of possibility. Or, note the Qantas 747 that suffered significant damage recently as the result of a tire failure at take-off. I wonder if there is a contingency plan of some kind.

'Hope you enjoyed my little tangent. And now... BACK to the thread.
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Eagle11
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:14 am

These pictures are great! Thanks!

Can't wait to see the rest of the fleet up and running.
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BreninTW
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 29):
There have been / will be two of these LCFs built, is that correct?

Three will be built initially -- although I believe Boeing is looking at adding more if the need arises. The second one is currently being built, I'm not sure when the third one will be started.
 
NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 29):
There have been / will be two of these LCFs built, is that correct?

There will be 3 by the end of this year. If Boeing expands the output or ands a 2nd production line then they may have to add more Dreamlifters.
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sstsomeday
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 31):
Three will be built initially -- although I believe Boeing is looking at adding more if the need arises. The second one is currently being built, I'm not sure when the third one will be started.



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 32):
here will be 3 by the end of this year. If Boeing expands the output or ands a 2nd production line then they may have to add more Dreamlifters.

I appreciate the information!
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centrair
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:23 am

What I find interesting is that there is little news about the LCF here in the Chubu Region. Would have through it would have been on the news and in the papers. Can't find anything.

But I did find a blogger with one photo. Chubu Kokusai Kuko Shashin Blog (Chubu International Airport Picture Blog)

Still looking for photos taken by Japanese aviation people.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
I think it's rollout in July and first flight in August

Completly excited.

[Edited 2007-01-11 02:31:20]
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k0dxx
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:52 am

What pictures? I have used two browsers and I see no pictures!  confused 
 
deltajet757
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:53 am

Cool pics. I wish Boeing would paint the LCF so we wouldn't have to look at that godawful green primer.

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Aaron747
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:12 pm

Not at all surprised Centrair. Japanese companies don't like to publicize things in the media unless they involve a new product launch or positive financial results.
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jafa39
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
arrived in Nagoya to pick up the first fuselage and wing sections for transport to the US

So...the 787's gonna be a Rice Burner eh?  Wink  Wink
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beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:12 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 29):
There have been / will be two of these LCFs built, is that correct?

3 to support production at first... word around here is 5 will be built in the long run.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 39):
So...the 787's gonna be a Rice Burner eh?

No its going to be a rice burning, cowboy ridin', warm bear drinking, bad cheese smelling, outback huntin', mounty lovin, bull running, Hippy... who likes alternative music, techno and pokemon. LOL

If anyone can figure that out... i did good. LOL
(that was all in good fun... please no one be offended)
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centrair
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 40):
3 to support production at first... word around here is 5 will be built in the long run.

Picking up old NH or JL planes?

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 40):
No its going to be a rice burning, cowboy ridin', warm bear drinking, bad cheese smelling, outback huntin', mounty lovin, bull running, Hippy... who likes alternative music, techno and pokemon. LOL

Yeeeee haaaaaw!
I think that best describes the 787's production in terms of cultural background.

I just hope the 787 doesn't burn the rice, that would make it unpopular with the Japanese.

I notice the rice is delivered in a Oscar Meyer Weiner. Can't be a good combination.

I wonder how often this plane will be visiting NGO?

Beech, do you happen to know the schedule?
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tozairport
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries B

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:01 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 23):
And you didn't get any pictures!!!!!????????

Sorry dude, but as we taxi we are in "sterile cockpit" so taking pictures is taboo. IF I was to have taken pictures, and that is IF, I surely couldn't post them on the net. I like my job too much.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
centrair
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:58 pm

Finally found a news article all be it in Japanese but it doesn't mention the LCF.

(Translated title) The fuji Heavy Industries, beginning shipment the center wing of the next generation airliner gBoeing 787h

The article basically talks about the center wing box. It says it is being shipped. That is it.

Still no news from Boeing or any other group. How sad.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
centrair
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:24 pm

Here is a little 787 artwork for you all from our friends at Fuji Heavy Industries.

I believe this is the first 787 piece that will actually fly.



787 fuselage part beginning shipment (Japanese)

The article says this is the first piece to be shipped on the 11th. But it doesn't look like a wing box.
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NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:25 pm

Cool the first pic of the actual 787 fuselage. I believe this is part of the mid fuselage (forward of the wing box I think). It'll be attached to the two fuselage sections made in Italy and shipped to Charleston. I think the wing box will also be shipped with this fuselage section.

I thought the sections are going to be grey and not painted with the green anti-corrosive coating? does anyone know about that. We should ask Beech19. He's in the know!!
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Aaron747
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:34 pm

The parts are scheduled to be delivered ON the 12th to CHS. Time will only be known once the flight plan is filed.

Nothing on flightaware as of yet so I'm getting up early to check again and scramble out to NGO if need be.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NYC777
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
The parts are scheduled to be delivered ON the 12th to CHS. Time will only be known once the flight plan is filed.

Nothing on flightaware as of yet so I'm getting up early to check again and scramble out to NGO if need be.

Do you know if anyone has gotten any pics of the loading?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 41):
Beech, do you happen to know the schedule?

Not a specific schedule... BUT since Fuji is building every single wingbox and Kawasaki is building all the section 44's and Mitsubishi is building the wings that is two LCF flights PER 787 to be built. If you figure one 787 every three days that is a constant back and forth nearly...

Quoting Centrair (Reply 44):
Here is a little 787 artwork for you all from our friends at Fuji Heavy Industries.

Um... i'm not sure where Fuji would be getting that pic unless they were spying. lol That is a Kawasaki Heavy Industry Section 44.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 44):
I believe this is the first 787 piece that will actually fly.

Yes... this is the first. I can tell you from working on one of the first barrels (test barrels, but its all painted up) these suckers are HUGE. Those doors are huge and those windows are HUGE.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 44):
The article says this is the first piece to be shipped on the 11th. But it doesn't look like a wing box.

The wingbox from Fuji and the Section 44 from Kawasaki should be being brought over at the same time as they are both going to Charleston, SC. The wings will be brought over directly to Everett.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 45):
Cool the first pic of the actual 787 fuselage. I believe this is part of the mid fuselage (forward of the wing box I think). It'll be attached to the two fuselage sections made in Italy and shipped to Charleston. I think the wing box will also be shipped with this fuselage section.

I thought the sections are going to be grey and not painted with the green anti-corrosive coating? does anyone know about that. We should ask Beech19. He's in the know!!

As said before... this is Section 44. The part of that peice that is farthest away is the front of it. That will hook up to the Section 41 being built by Spirit in Wichita, KS.
That is not an autoclave its coming out of so i would assume its coming out of a primer bay. That rear black area isn't primed because its where the wing to body fairing made by Boeing Canada attaches too.  

Obviously this stuff still has to be primed just like aluminum. It actually looks grey to me (the CFRP is jet black in reality, not dark grey) and so the lighting/image is messing with it.  
I hope that helps...

A little tid bit of information... the floor beams that are inside that are made by Boeing Tulsa and installed over in Japan. The ONLY metal on that whole section is the vertical supports for the composite floor beams.  Smile

[Edited 2007-01-11 15:24:25]
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beech19
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RE: 747LCF Arrives In NGO! (Pics) 787 Deliveries Begin

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:01 am

We may have a situation...

There was a An-124 that left from KBFI yesterday at 3:47pm and arrived in NGO at about midnight. This COULD carry a wingbox if needed but not the Section 44. If the aircraft is there for LCF "replacement" then we may have an answer to all this. It would be at the LCF cargo ramp...

Anyone near there can check into this? Would be appreciated...
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