redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:55 am

isn’t Airbus now a wholly-owned subsidiary of a listed company? That’s why it is puzzling that the European planemaker appears so sluggish in announcing material information about its business, particularly after EADS took control late last year.

The problem is timely disclosure of aircraft orders, something investors might be forgiven for thinking EADS would be focusing on, given Airbus is lagging behind rival Boeing on sales.

EADS’s communication with financial markets is also under scrutiny because of the current investigation into alleged insider trading at the company in 2006.


http://www.thebusinessonline.com/Doc...41E0E1-A58E-4E42-8D9F-15506DF8C062

Same argument that some on A.net have put forth.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:21 am

IIRC, BoomBoom suggested in another thread that the reason Airbus takes until January 17th to report/husband its "order intake" results is because France is using one version of Excel and Germany is using another.  Smile
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Interesting that one of the most common criticism of Airbus I see on here is that they're too quick to announce orders........  Smile

Ah, well. One man's poison.......

Regards
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:21 am

Last week Europe was still too drunk from New Year's Eve to work. This week Europe is too hungover to work. Next week will be a normal 35 minute work week and Airbus will strive to get the orders counted during those 35 minutes.  Smile
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:30 am

As per governing rules of EADS, the only legally binding statements from the consortium to its shareholders are through regulatory statements, published at regular intervals.

All the rest -be it an 'ad hoc' press release from EADS or Airbus, an updated order sheet from Airbus or just a verbal comment from John Leahy himself- is just complimentary and should be taken for what it is worth: 'for entertainment of the audience only':
No need to be immediate,
no need to be complete,
no need even to be made at all.
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5006
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:32 am

To Boeing:

Live with it, A is in no hurry..

Micke//  Wink
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:42 am

Reading through the article, I saw this which is actually quite ironic:

EADS should be doing its utmost to ensure orders are communicated to the market as speedily as possible. If not there's always a chance that information can leak and give some investors an unfair advantage.

Not a single upcoming Airbus order has recently been leaked by a source other than one close to the airline-customer, whereas in fact several upcoming Boeing orders were widely leaked by a source close to the US manufacturer....

Go figure!
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
To Boeing:

Live with it, A is in no hurry..

Did Boeing complain about Airbus' procedures for announcing their annual "order intake" results?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
BR076
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 4:10 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Last week Europe was still too drunk from New Year's Eve to work. This week Europe is too hungover to work. Next week will be a normal 35 minute work week and Airbus will strive to get the orders counted during those 35 minutes.

Hmm.... I work at least 10 hours a day and some days it's 14 hours, ok it's a company with American headbase maybe that's why  Smile
ú
 
Boeing777/747
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:07 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:50 am

Why rush, rush? Did you miss the Bus? So what? There will be another one over 5 minutes. Take it easy, life is too short to live it stressed and rushed.
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
To Boeing:
Live with it, A is in no hurry.

Did Boeing make a complaint? Perhaps you meant "To A.Net:" smile 

Or worse..."To Stockholders:" mischievous 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 2):
Interesting that one of the most common criticism of Airbus I see on here is that they're too quick to announce orders........ Smile

Ah, well. One man's poison.......

To be fair (and I believe I have probably been the harshest critic of Airbus's order practices) my point is not on timing so much as the current system being gimmicked for whatever reason Airbus wants.

Slz396 put it better then I could:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
As per governing rules of EADS, the only legally binding statements from the consortium to its shareholders are through regulatory statements, published at regular intervals.

All the rest -be it an 'ad hoc' press release from EADS or Airbus, an updated order sheet from Airbus or just a verbal comment from John Leahy himself- is just complimentary and should be taken for what it is worth: 'for entertainment of the audience only':
No need to be immediate,
no need to be complete,
no need even to be made at all.

Which leaves this system wide open for manipulation and ethically questionable purposes. Airbus fans will jump all over me for making that statement, but experience in both Europe and America has shown that when the possibility exists for something unethical and possibly illegal to occur, it usually does.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
To Boeing:

Live with it, A is in no hurry..

Micke// Wink

This was actually raised by a well regarded European paper. And why should transparency be just for American companies. As this article mentions, it leaves a lot of room for people profiting on insider knowledge, as some here have claimed, allows Airbus the possibility to play reporting games ala Enron, Qwest and Worldcomm.
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5006
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):

"Live with it. A is in no hurry...

[edit] Just look at A380!!!

Micke//  laughing 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
No need to be immediate,
no need to be complete,
no need even to be made at all.

That sounds like the mission statement for the A380 project  Wink
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Aviator27
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:09 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:23 am

I think one of the reasons Airbus takes so long to announce their 2006 order totals is because they actually take their Christmas + New Year holiday. Its a stretch. Plus not every company has the same calender year. Iran uses March to March. The USA Federal government uses September to September. Some publically listed companies in the USA use January to January while others use March to March. Everyone has different standards and its not for us to complain because Airbus is different than Boeing. In the end, its still one year (12 months). Its not like Airbus is counting 13 months of order for every calender year. By the way Boeing had a fabulous 2006. I am going to go out on the limb and say Airbus will beat them again. I know Airbus was over 200 airplanes behind at the start of December but they racked up a lot of orders at the end of the year (as they always do). I suppose we will all find out next week. More airplanes = more work for me. Yay!
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
To be fair (and I believe I have probably been the harshest critic of Airbus's order practices) my point is not on timing so much as the current system being gimmicked for whatever reason Airbus wants.

To be fair to Airbus, provided you stick religiously to the orders spreadsheet on their website, and pretty much ignore everything else, you won't go far wrong. (Actions not words....  Wink )
Except, maybe..

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

A bit of this.  Smile

A weekly update of the Boeing order spreadsheet invariably means it's more "current" than the Airbus one.

Regards
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
Experience in both Europe and America has shown that when the possibility exists for something unethical and possibly illegal to occur, it usually does.

There is nothing illegal in NOT making a press release the day you sign an order... What would be illegal is not having the order appear in your Q, H or Y results when you publish them at the end of the term.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
As this article mentions, it leaves a lot of room for people profiting on insider knowledge, as some here have claimed, allows Airbus the possibility to play reporting games ala Enron, Qwest and Worldcomm.

At regular intervals, EADS has to make regulatory statements containing audited financial data and its board can be held responsible if and when in hindsight the contents of these statements is not reflecting the full reality at the time of posting. As long as they do, EADS -and any of its subsidiaries- are well within the legal framework and must not make any additional communications. Them electing to do so -on selected occasions- is purely informative and should not be used to base assessments on, something many arm chair analysts here and even in the popular press often forget, because it has become a habit listed companies normally do so in full.

Since EADS -contrary to Boeing- focuses almost entirely on their strategic/institutional long term investors (banks/states/industrial consortium) they don't feel the need to pamper their smaller and often much more volatile share holder's base in the way Boeing does.

I've said it before and I say it again: EADS is not a company Joe Average is supposed to buy shares in if his aim is to sell those shares off with the best possible profit within only a few months, because he might indeed be doing so based on knowlegde which does not fully reflect the situation as of that day yet.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
why should transparency be just for American companies. As this article mentions, it leaves a lot of room for people profiting on insider knowledge, as some here have claimed, allows Airbus the possibility to play reporting games ala Enron, Qwest and Worldcomm.

This is the most salient point in the thread so far.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
At regular intervals, EADS has to make regulatory statements containing audited financial data and its board can be held responsible if and when in hindsight the contents of these statements is not reflecting the full reality at the time of posting. As long as they do, EADS -and any of its subsidiaries- are well within the legal framework and must not make any additional communications. Them electing to do so -on selected occasions- is purely informative and should not be used to base assessments on, something many arm chair analysts here and even in the popular press often forget, because it has become a habit listed companies normally do so in full.

Are you saying that Airbus have no obligation to be truthful when making such an elective statement?
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
To be fair to Airbus, provided you stick religiously to the orders spreadsheet on their website, and pretty much ignore everything else, you won't go far wrong. (Actions not words.... Wink )

How long did it take Airbus to reflect things like the A340 cancellation from EK, some of SQ's cancellations and UPS's A300 cancellation (even after they signed for the A380?)

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Since EADS -contrary to Boeing- focuses almost entirely on their strategic/institutional long term investors (banks/states/industrial consortium)

And there is truth there. But the reality still is that if I were a investor that did not have supra-normal access to Airbus's internals (ie, a government PM, or the head of BAe) I would not trust the Airbus's reporting requirements to prevent funny business from going on.

And if the purpose of reporting isn't accountability, what's the purpose of it? (That was meant the be rhetorical).
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Are you saying that Airbus have no obligation to be truthful when making such an elective statement?

EADS are not obliged to make any additional statements (apart from the regulatory statements) in the first place.

If they do elect to make a complementary statement on an 'ad hoc' basis however, I am sure you'll find it truthful.
 
n1786b
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:10 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
Not a single upcoming Airbus order has recently been leaked by a source other than one close to the airline-customer, whereas in fact several upcoming Boeing orders were widely leaked by a source close to the US manufacturer....

Sure and weren't you sitting in front of your computer looking for the major order Monday that was leaked to the WSJ?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
This was actually raised by a well regarded European paper. And why should transparency be just for American companies. As this article mentions, it leaves a lot of room for people profiting on insider knowledge, as some here have claimed, allows Airbus the possibility to play reporting games ala Enron, Qwest and Worldcomm.

Not to mention Noel and family cashing in before the A380 announcement. Aren't there over 500 people being investigated for bailing out/cashing in (insider trading) before the announcement?

-n1786b

[Edited 2007-01-10 23:14:19]
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
If they do elect to make a complementary statement on an 'ad hoc' basis however, I am sure you'll find it truthful.

Is your surety based on a legal obligation? Are Airbus legally required to be truthful when making such statements?
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Since EADS -contrary to Boeing- focuses almost entirely on their strategic/institutional long term investors (banks/states/industrial consortium) they don't feel the need to pamper their smaller and often much more volatile share holder's base in the way Boeing does.

I've said it before and I say it again: EADS is not a company Joe Average is supposed to buy shares in if his aim is to sell those shares off with the best possible profit within only a few months, because he might indeed be doing so based on knowlegde which does not fully reflect the situation as of that day yet.

Hmmm...67.2% of Boeing common stock is held by "institutional" investors. If EADS management indeed cops the attitude you suggest, they're alienating the very stockholder constituency which provides the market liquidity they sought by going public in the first place. Such an approach can't ultimately be good for any "class" of investor in a publicly traded company.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
Are Airbus legally required to be truthful when making such statements?

Since Airbus is not making any non-regulatory statements about unidentified customers (contrary to Boeing BTW), external verification proofs to be much easier than with Boeing should you have any doubts about the truthfulness of the information they elect to provide you with....
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:14 am

Quote:
Airbus is a past master at stage-managing order announcements, particularly at airshows. Boeing, in contrast, says it has a policy of not holding orders over for airshows such as Paris and Farnborough.

But with Airbus now a wholly-owned subsidiary of EADS, in need of reassuring its investors after all its confidence-sapping problems of 2006, it’s time to curtail this particular song and dance.

http://www.thebusinessonline.com/Doc...41E0E1-A58E-4E42-8D9F-15506DF8C062

[Edited 2007-01-11 02:20:51]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 23):
Since Airbus is not making any non-regulatory statements about unidentified customers (contrary to Boeing BTW), external verification proofs to be much easier than with Boeing should you have any doubts about the truthfulness of the information they elect to provide you with....

Again, you didn't answer my question. I'm not asking whether or not Airbus are truthful in their elective statements. I'm asking whether or not there is a law that requires those elective statements, if any are made, to be truthful.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 18):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
To be fair to Airbus, provided you stick religiously to the orders spreadsheet on their website, and pretty much ignore everything else, you won't go far wrong. (Actions not words.... Wink )

How long did it take Airbus to reflect things like the A340 cancellation from EK, some of SQ's cancellations and UPS's A300 cancellation (even after they signed for the A380?)

I don't know. Do you?

Regards
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:34 pm

The saga with BAE selling their stake speaks volumes about how Airbus / EADS keeps their investors in the dark. BAE had a wildly different valuation of it s shares and was clearly in the dark relative to other EADS investors. Isn't it ODD that the German and French major investors knew enought to sell (along with Airbus Mgt) while BAE was apparently in the dark.

If they treat these major investors in this way, what about the general public.

It could be good for Airbus to disclose more. Companies that keep their investors informed typically has better P/E ratios in the same industry than those that just do the minimum.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 18):
like the A340 cancellation from EK

EK hasn't actually cancelled any order for A340 - they've said that they don't want them and that someone else will be taking the planes - in effect EK have sold their places in the queue and there is no effect on the net sales at Airbus.
 
jdevora
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:41 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Last week Europe was still too drunk from New Year's Eve to work. This week Europe is too hungover to work. Next week will be a normal 35 minute work week and Airbus will strive to get the orders counted during those 35 minutes.

Things are even better in Spain, the Christmas period only ends the 6th January when "Los Reyes Magos" bring the presents for all the "good guys"

JD
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 28):
EK hasn't actually cancelled any order for A340

Unfortunately we're all too quick to convert "rumour" into "law" on A-net.

It's entirely possible that the A340 orders are embroiled in an "A380 compensation/A350XWB deal" conversation.

It's also convenient to miss out the fact that there's frequently a considerable gap between Airbus announcing an "order", and the finalised order actually appearing on their website, which on occasion, can be measured in years.

Typically, they're orders where it is known that there are "details" still to be finalised (like which plane it is, in the case of the QR A350's  Smile )

How we miss this out, I'm not sure, given that it's the title of the thread.......

Regards
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
Again, you didn't answer my question. I'm not asking whether or not Airbus are truthful in their elective statements. I'm asking whether or not there is a law that requires those elective statements, if any are made, to be truthful.

Contrary to Boeing, Airbus only announces orders from identified customers, leaving you with the possibility to ALWAYS double check ALL of their orders should you doubt them.

In my view, this alone gives you far more guarantees on the truthfulness of any of their statement than just some legal framework as a deterrent to any malevolent corporate (dis)information. The rules under which Boeing works and you seem to have so much faith in didn't stop ENRON from making a stream of false statements....

But even so, as a general rule of law the basic principle still stands that any information spread by a publicly listed company (or a subsidiary of it) which can be shown to be known wrong by the company at the time of its publication, can be seen as an act of active share value manipulation and as such is always illegal.

Since you apparently only have faith in the law as method to prevent any wrongdoing, the above rule of law should assure you beyond doubt any elected non-regulatory statement from EADS or Airbus IS truthful indeed.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 31):
as a general rule of law the basic principle still stands that any information spread by a publicly listed company (or a subsidiary of it) which can be shown to be known wrong by the company at the time of its publication, can be seen as an act of active share value manipulation and as such is always illegal.

Thank you for answering my question.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 31):
you apparently only have faith in the law as method to prevent any wrongdoing

That is neither apparent nor true nor even relevant to the discussion.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 31):
the above rule of law should assure you beyond doubt any elected non-regulatory statement from EADS or Airbus IS truthful indeed.

That is just silly. The legal consequences of untruthfulness are not a reliable indicator of veracity. You seem to still be focused on whether or not Airbus are lying, despite my explicit statement that that is not what I'm asking. I was just trying to ensure that your previous statement didn't leave anyone with the impression that Airbus may freely entertain through fiction:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
As per governing rules of EADS, the only legally binding statements from the consortium to its shareholders are through regulatory statements, published at regular intervals.

All the rest -be it an 'ad hoc' press release from EADS or Airbus, an updated order sheet from Airbus or just a verbal comment from John Leahy himself- is just complimentary and should be taken for what it is worth: 'for entertainment of the audience only':
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
That is neither apparent nor true nor even relevant to the discussion

In fact this discussion itself is irrelevant since we should be discussing the exisitance of several NON-reported real orders and not the fictitious exisitance of some reported NON-order....

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
The legal consequences of untruthfulness are not a reliable indicator of veracity.

Indeed they aren't, but then why were you asking:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
whether or not there is a law that requires those elective statements, if any are made, to be truthful?

Whether there would be a law or not preventing them shouldn't make much difference then, does it?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
I was just trying to ensure that your previous statement didn't leave anyone with the impression that Airbus may freely entertain through fiction.

Anybody drawing such a conclusion from my posts has a clear habit of suspecting Airbus or EADS of wrongdoing in reporting and will not be convinced by the existence of a legal framework preventing it.

Besides, my first intervention which triggered this discussion clearly misses any reference to a non-regulatory statement not needing to be correct in the first place:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
No need to be immediate,
no need to be complete,
no need even to be made at all.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
Not a single upcoming Airbus order has recently been leaked by a source other than one close to the airline-customer, whereas in fact several upcoming Boeing orders were widely leaked by a source close to the US manufacturer

I repeatedly see you levelling this accusation without providing any proof that:

a) Airbus doesn't have leaks
b) Boeing does

Frankly I'm a tad surprised you continue to spout that nonsense. Please note:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/061201/137/69wch.html
"The board of EADS is 90 percent sure to agree on Friday to launch Airbus's planned A350 mid-size, long-haul jet, a source close to the board told Reuters on Friday. "

or perhaps:

http://english.eastday.com/eastday/e...ode63360/userobject1ai1675259.html

"The agreement is fair and reasonable both in its principles and details," Bo said.
In a separate deal that could be signed today, China Southern Airlines, the country's biggest carrier, will agree to buy 10 A330 jets from Airbus at a listed price of about US$1.3 billion, said a source close to Airbus.
"

I'm sure I could find more, but frankly I'm bored already..
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
why should transparency be just for American companies. As this article mentions, it leaves a lot of room for people profiting on insider knowledge, as some here have claimed, allows Airbus the possibility to play reporting games ala Enron, Qwest and Worldcomm.

This is the most salient point in the thread so far.

How transparent is the practice of posting numbers of planes bought by customers with no names? That's what Boeing does all the time. Some sit there for an age.

Different strokes for different folks. Our American cousins certainly have their own unique strokes.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Ebbuk (Reply 35):
How transparent is the practice of posting numbers of planes bought by customers with no names? That's what Boeing does all the time. Some sit there for an age.

Different strokes for different folks. Our American cousins certainly have their own unique strokes.

The point is, at the end of the day, the person who ordered the plane is of little relevance. The deposit is received when the contract is signed. As such the order exists and is accounted for immediately at that time.

The counter-point is with Airbus shoving orders under the covers it allows someone inside to buy the stock well inadvance of the new hitting the wires and profitting... that's the central problem with 'saving' orders for things like airshows.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 36):
with Airbus shoving orders under the covers

How does Airbus shove orders under the covers? Because they don't show them on their website weekly like Boeing does?

There's absolutely no requirement for either company to show detailed orders on their websites. It's not like airlines are buying planes "online".

Airbus does things differently to Boeing - it makes neither company wrong. Some people really need to just accept this fact and get on with their lives. We're in 2007 and there are still Boeing cheerleaders on this site bitching about orders in 2005! rotfl 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
How does Airbus shove orders under the covers? Because they don't show them on their website weekly like Boeing does?

Illiterate much?

Quote:
The counter-point is with Airbus shoving orders under the covers it allows someone inside to buy the stock well inadvance of the new hitting the wires and profitting... that's the central problem with 'saving' orders for things like airshows.

Airbus sits on some orders for months (supposedly).. if you don't see that as a problem then say so, but don't take a quote out of context.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 34):
I repeatedly see you levelling this accusation without providing any proof that:
a) Airbus doesn't have leaks
b) Boeing does

It is not an accusation, but an observation.

The fact Boeing leaks is something we've seen demonstrated on this site almost continuously over the last year, whereas the author of the article from 'the business' clearly agrees with me Airbus generally doesn't, or otherwise he wouldn't be seeing a future risk to them holding back orders for so long...

EADS should be doing its utmost to ensure orders are communicated to the market as speedily as possible. If not there's always a chance that information can leak and give some investors an unfair advantage.

Besides, what is it you have against Boeing being caught leaking?

I think it is fabulous we get to know virtually all of their important orders a bit sooner than we're supposed to...

On the other hand, some customers (QR for instance) were apparently really pissed off by the lack of respect towards them for having been taken away the rare opportunity to gain maximum worldwide exposure with the official order announcement.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 38):
Illiterate much?

Are you calling me illiterate? That's not very nice.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 38):
Airbus sits on some orders for months (supposedly)..

Do you have an example of this supposedly happening?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
gbfra
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:50 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 36):
The counter-point is with Airbus shoving orders under the covers it allows someone inside to buy the stock well inadvance of the new hitting the wires and profitting... that's the central problem with 'saving' orders for things like airshows.

Yes, but insiders would have the opportunity to do insider trading even in the case of a quick announcement. An insider is by definition a person who disposes of information which is not yet published - be it two days or three months before its publication.

As for "leakages" before the official publication of orders neither A nor B are saints. Both companies are discreetely feeding media from time to time. As a journalist I don't think it's a scandal, but my view might be biased on this point.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
Aviator27
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:09 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:08 am

I think some people on this forum are insinuating that Airbus lies about their order sheet because they take "so long" to report final 2006 numbers. Others are saying because Boeing books UFO orders on their website, they are less than transparent. Myself and a few others have made the point that most of corporate Europe is still on vacation so Airbus is in no rush to announce order totals.

There are laws that say public companies have to report material information in a timely fashion. This does not mean you have to do it right away. I believe that varies by country and can be done quarterly, semi-annually, or annually.

Some of you guys need to take a step back and relax a little. Many of you are taking things way too personal. Neither Boeing nor Airbus lie about the orders they get. Boeing announces their orders at the end of the year. Airbus announces theirs some three weeks later. Get over it and relax.

Corporations are at the mercy of their managers, many of whom are unscrupulous. There is a big investigation into people who knew about A380 delays, not divulging this information, and selling stocks based on this information. Boeing has had their fair share of wrist slapping. I believe Boeing paid $615 million fine for improprieties over defense contracts in May 2006. Boeing also lied about development cost of the B777 (by half of the actual cost). Anyone here even remember who Author Andersen was?

Most of the people involved in those shenanigans at Boeing are long gone. I am sure Airbus is cleaning house. The A380 delays is a black eye on an otherwise fabulous two years by the both companies. I want to see both Boeing and Airbus airplanes in the sky. Just think, without the A330, Boeing would have never developed the B787. Without the A380, Boeing would never have moved forward with the B748.

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the rest of 2007.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 39):
It is not an accusation, but an observation.

But I showed you how it's an incorrect observation, so why keep saying it?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 39):
Besides, what is it you have against Boeing being caught leaking?

I have nothing against Boeing "leaking" as you put it. My problem is with your false assertion. Airbus leaks as well. I cited two sources that took all of 5 seconds to find while I was having my morning coffee. I would wager that many Boeing "leaks" are intentional as well (and probably many Airbus ones by the same token).

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 39):
On the other hand, some customers (QR for instance) were apparently really pissed off by the lack of respect towards them for having been taken away the rare opportunity to gain maximum worldwide exposure with the official order announcement.

The QR issue wasn't a "leak". Boeing accidentally *officially* announced the deal before QR wanted them to. Not a leak at all. It was simply a mistake and I'm sure QR raked someone at Boeing over the coals on that one don't worry.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 40):
Are you calling me illiterate? That's not very nice.

Nope it was a question  Wink (seriously, it was meant jokingly)

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 40):
Do you have an example of this supposedly happening?

Circumstantial only, as I'm not privy to the internal of Airbus, but I think one can make a decent assessment of the situation based on the inordinately large number of orders Airbus announce at the big airshows (thus why I used the term supposedly).

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 41):
Yes, but insiders would have the opportunity to do insider trading even in the case of a quick announcement. An insider is by definition a person who disposes of information which is not yet published - be it two days or three months before its publication.

Yes, but a much smaller window with which to maximize the profit on such information. The longer orders are held back (say for an airshow) the more time there is to move on them. Also if say 4 orders are held back for next month's Airshow (over the course of a month) there is an opportunity to capitalize on 4 orders at once rather than having to take a smaller gain on each one for insider trading. (Again on the assumption that the accusations being levelled have some level of truth to them).

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 41):
As for "leakages" before the official publication of orders neither A nor B are saints. Both companies are discreetely feeding media from time to time.

 checkmark  Leaks are the new way to put out a PR without a PR  Wink

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 42):
Just think, without the A330, Boeing would have never developed the B787.

Ya we'd probably have the Sonic Cruiser instead... so why am I cheering for Airbus again?  duck 
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Ebbuk (Reply 35):
How transparent is the practice of posting numbers of planes bought by customers with no names?

It's completely transparent. Who the customer is is completely irrelevant -- except in so far as the market might be able to divine a guess about the discount based on who the customer is. On the other hand, Airbus waiting to report the sale until the customer is willing to announce is an egregious violation of transparency. In the Boeing case, insiders have material knowledge of orders for at most 9 days before public disclosure. In the Airbus case, insiders have material knowledge of orders months before the public do. I'd rather see both manufacturers update the order information on their websites daily with the previous day's orders (and cancellations).
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 36):
The point is, at the end of the day, the person who ordered the plane is of little relevance. The deposit is received when the contract is signed. As such the order exists and is accounted for immediately at that time.

Interesting comment... it could be of great use whenever we discuss orders from China...

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 36):
The counter-point is with Airbus shoving orders under the covers it allows someone inside to buy the stock well in advance of the new hitting the wires and profiting... that's the central problem with 'saving' orders for things like airshows.

And this is a problem?

Orders don't just fall out of the sky you know, they come after weeks (if not months) of intense discussions, so during the final stages of the discussions, -when it is clear the customer WILL sign once technical details are sorted out- the risk of insider trading also exists, hence there are closely monitored schemes which allow any such insiders to trade shares of their company only during a short and specific period of the year.

In that perspective, the fact whether or not an order is made public right after it being signed is of no importance whatsoever for as long as the group of insiders which are involved in the negotiations -and thus know of the signing- can keep their mouth shut, something which doesn't seem to be too much of a problem at A, contrary to B...

It might be worth considering that since some of these insiders at B are apparently not so tight lipped as their counterparts at A, maybe, just maybe the chances of somebody buying with insider knowledge are less remote in Seattle than they are in Toulouse or Hamburg??? Unless of course you assume that journalists from the popular press are the the first ones to benefit from the leaks on any upcoming big Boeing orders....
 stirthepot 

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
How does Airbus shove orders under the covers? Because they don't show them on their website weekly like Boeing does?
There's absolutely no requirement for either company to show detailed orders on their websites. It's not like airlines are buying planes "online".

Indeed. Some people here see anything which isn't done their way as extremely weird, very suspicious or even outright fraud!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 44):
inordinately large number of orders Airbus announce at the big airshows

But these are rarely firm orders at the time of announcement and often take many months (sometimes years) to hit the order books. Usually most of the air show announcements are LOIs or MOUs or even just "airline X has selected the Oki-Koki 2000 for it's future fleet."

If all the announcements that Airbus made at the air shows hit their order book the same month, I'd be inclined to agree with your supposition. Generally though, they don't.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 44):
Nope it was a question (seriously, it was meant jokingly)

OK, I think. smile 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 46):
Interesting comment... it could be of great use whenever we discuss orders from China...

The entire order payment process is documented (at least on Boeing's site). A deposit of several million per frame is due at signing. As such the orders are firm then and should be reported at that time. How people want to count China orders is their problem. If the deposit is paid the order is booked, if not it's not. It's a very black and white issue.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 46):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 36):
The counter-point is with Airbus shoving orders under the covers it allows someone inside to buy the stock well in advance of the new hitting the wires and profiting... that's the central problem with 'saving' orders for things like airshows.

And this is a problem?

Well let's see, other than the fact that insider trading is illegal and unfair, there's no problem with it at all.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 46):
Orders don't just fall out of the sky you know, they come after weeks (if not months) of intense discussions, so during the final stages of the discussions, -when it is clear the customer WILL sign once technical details are sorted out- the risk of insider trading also exists, hence there are closely monitored schemes which allow any such insiders to trade shares of their company only during a short and specific period of the year.

See my previous comments about length of time.. and reasons why it's bad.. I'm not going to post them again and clutter the forum...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 47):
If all the announcements that Airbus made at the air shows hit their order book the same month, I'd be inclined to agree with your supposition. Generally though, they don't.

LOIs/MOUs also move the stock. It's the same principal. I frankly don't care if Airbus announces their orders ever. I really don't give a rat's arse. But that's because I'm not a shareholder of EADS and am not looking to be one until I'm convinced they have their issues sorted out. However, if I *was* a shareholder I would be pretty pissed at those silly little games Airbus plays. That sort of partice just leads to volatility and that's not something I'm looking for in a stock in their price range. If I want volatility I play the cheap stocks so I can take advantage of it.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 47):
OK, I think.

Trust me, if I meant it I would have outright flamed you.. I'm not shy to speak my mind, you should know that by now  

[Edited 2007-01-11 20:42:40]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Too Slow To Announce Orders

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 48):
See my previous comments about length of time..

You are aware that insider trading becomes much more interesting if you can buy at today's price, knowing almost for sure that tomorrow's price will be higher because of the immediate order announcement you have knowledge of, than buying at today's price and..... waiting for weeks or even months before the order gets unveiled (during which time a lot of other things can happen)?

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 48):
if I was a shareholder I would be pretty pissed at those silly little games Airbus plays. That sort of partice just leads to volatility and that's not something I'm looking for in a stock in their price range.

That's because you only think "short term financial profit".

Is I have said over and over again: if you are that type of investor, better stay out of EADS, since this is not the kind of share you should buy in January and sell of in June when you think it is at its peak, because then indeed Farnborough comes and you may find out there were orders not previously announced from which you didn't benefit when selling your shares off...

If however you have no intention of selling off your shares, you really don't care whether the order bagged is announced today, tomorrow, at the end of Q1 or even at the end of the year, for as long as the money comes in and your annual dividend grows.