abrelosojos
Posts: 4049
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:37 am

The aviation sector in Mexico is finally heating up and I thought it would be fitting to have a thread dedicated to Mexican aviation. I hope this is kosher with all the Mexican members of the forum. If not, just take the thread topic to be a Mexican route analysis.

Anyways, I am working on analyzing Mexican route analysis and found some interesting facts. Perhaps all the knowledgeable Mexicanos can help clear why the low-cost revolution has been slow to take off in Mexico. By this I mean, many cities not currently having low cost service. Also, any ideas whether there are other airports currently without service in Mexico? For a country of its size, there seems to be very few airports. Any idea why so many relatively mid-large cities are connected so poorly? It seems all traffic is via hub, DF, or MTY/GDL. Is there really no demand? Could demand be created by the LCCs like they did in Europe, Asia, and North America? Finally, unlike fun destinations in other areas of the world, it seems LCCs are avoiding beach cities in MX (Cozumel, Pt. Vallarta, Manzanillo, Ixtapa/Z, etc.)?

Cheers,
A.

Analysis:

Here is what I came up with in terms of route analysis. By LCC, I include Aladia, Avolar, Alma, Interjet, Viva Aerobus, and Volaris. I refrain from including CLICK as I have never encountered a cheap CLICK flight! Oh, the cities follow a geographic pattern based on my understanding of Mexico and a * before a city indicate no LCC flights. Number after the city indicates number of LCCs out of possible 6.

01/ Tijuana (4): Volaris, Viva A, Alma, Avolar, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero CA
02/ *Mexicali: Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM
03/ Cd. Juarez (3): Viva A, Interjet, Alma, Azteca, Aviacsa, AM, Aero CA
04/ Chihuahua (3): Viva A, Interjet, Alma, Azteca, AM, Aero CA
05/ Hermosillo (2): Volaris, Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
06/ *Cd. Obregon: AM, Aero C
07/ *Loreto: AM
08/ La Paz (2): Alma, Avolar, AM, Aero C
09/ Los Cabos (2): Interjet, Alma
10/ Los Mochis (1): Alma, AM, Aero C
11/ Culiacan (2): Viva A, Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, AM, Aero C
12/ *Mazatlan: MX, AM, Aero C
13/ Pt. Vallarta (1): Alma, Aviacsa, AM
14/ *Manzanillo: MX, AM
15/ Colima (1): Avolar, AM, Aero C
16/ *Lazaro C: AM
17/ Ixtapa/Z (1): Interjet, MX, AM
18/ Acapulco (3): Viva A, Interjet, Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM
19/ *Pt. Escondido: Click MX
20/ *Huatulco: MX, AM
21/ *Salina Cruz: AM
22/ *Tapachulo: Aviacsa, AM
23/ *Chetumal: Aviacsa, Click MX, AM
24/ *Cozumel: MX
25/ Cancun (4): Volaris, Viva A, Interjet, Aladia, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM
26/ *Merida: Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
27/ *Campeche: AM
28/ Cd. Carmen (1): Interjet, MX, AM
29/ *Villahermosa: Aviacsa, MX, AM
30/ T Guttierez (1): Interjet, Aviacsa, MX, AM
31/ *Minatitlan: MX, AM
32/ Veracruz (2): Viva A, Interjet, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
33/ Puebla (3): Alma, Avolar, Aladia, Azteca, AM, Aero C
34/ Oaxaca (1): Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM
35/ Cuernavaca (1): Avolar
36/ Uruapan (1): Avolar, Azteca, AM
37/ Queretaro (2): Alma, Avolar, AM
38/ Tampico (2): Viva A, Interjet, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
39/ Morelia (1): Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM
40/ *SL Potosi: MX, AM
41/ *Zacatecas: Azteca, MX
42/ *Aguascaliente: Azteca, AM
43/ *Cd. Victoria: AM
44/ *Nuevo Laredo: MX
45/ *Raynosa: AM
46/ *Matamoros: AM
47/ Torreon (1): Alma, AM, Aero C
48/ Durango (1): Avolar, Aviacsa, AM, Aero C
49/ *Saltillo: MX
50/ Tepic (1): Avolar, AM, Aero C
51/ Leon/B (3): Volaris, Viva A, Avolar, Aviacsa, MX, AM

52/ Monterrey (5): Volaris, Viva A, Interjet, Alma, Aladia, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
53/ Guadalajara (4): Volaris, Interjet, Alma, Avolar, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C
54/ Toluca (2): Volaris, Interjet, Azteca, Click MX
55/ *DF: Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C

* Please let me know if I missed something and/or inaccuracies.
Live, and let live.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
It seems all traffic is via hub, DF, or MTY/GDL

Even MTY and GDL are poor hubs when you consider the size and economic output of the metro areas they serve. MTY at least has 6A. Sadly, almost everything revolves around MEX.

AM was developing HMO into a mini-hub but I am not sure of its status. There was also some noise that MX might turn CUN into a mini-hub but that was before the LCCs came into scene.

Mexican LCCs need to focus not only on O&D traffic but also on connecting traffic so that TIJ, MTY, GDL, TLC and PBC can become hubs.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
it seems LCCs are avoiding beach cities in MX

Well, ACA, ZIH, CUN and SJD are already served by LCCs, and I am sure it is only a matter of time before other beach destinations will receive LCC flights.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:55 am

Are there other airports that can receive civilian traffic ... or that once did and now has no service?

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:02 am

ADN is mainly a general aviation airport serving the wealthy businessmen of Monterrey (and maybe some military and law enforcement movements take place there too). I am not sure about the story of ADN i.e., whether it used to be Monterrey's airport many years ago or whether it was simply built for G.A. purposes.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
N405MX
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:04 am

MX is doing it´s job with CUN and GDL, MTY was forgotten in time for a while, but hopefully in the mid term that can change.

Some cities, will be too expensive to add service, for example CVM, Ciudad Victoria, it´s in the middle of TAM or MTY, it´s cheaper to fly to any of those instead direct, also because is way too expensive.

There where plans to expand Del Norte Int´l -ADN- but the owner don´t want too, also because is way too far from the citie and the road is pretty dangerous to arrive.

Saludos
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting N405MX (Reply 4):
There where plans to expand Del Norte Int´l -ADN- but the owner don´t want too, also because is way too far from the citie and the road is pretty dangerous to arrive.

= Could ADN be like Toluca?

-A.

PS: I personally think LCCs will really take off in Mexico when cross-border flights start.
Live, and let live.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
05/ Hermosillo (2): Volaris, Avolar, Azteca, Aviacsa, MX, AM, Aero C

Nope, MX retired from HMO a while ago...

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
AM was developing HMO into a mini-hub but I am not sure of its status.

Well, sure seems like they did, same with Aerolitoral. I'd say around 75% all ops at HMO are from AM, with 6A being the runner up.
 
captaink
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:19 am

I pretty much live in Aguascalientes. From what I have seen, Aguascalientes is not such a small city with a populatioin bordering 1 million. The standard of living in the city seems to be high indicating that the population generally do have some disposable income. I think it can support other carriers. Currently I drive 3 hours to GDL to catch a flight. While Aguascalientes does have service, the flights are terribly expensive. Azteca, AM, AA & CO. The later two with ERJ service to DFW and IAH. Now with a reasonably sized population, and alot of industry, such as Nissan, Texas Instruments etc, why does AGU have such little service?
There is something special about planes....
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 7):
why does AGU have such little service?

= That was kind of the point of my thread. To understand better the lack of service. Given that you live there, what is your understanding of the lack of service?

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Sadly, almost everything revolves around MEX.

This is very true, unfortunately. Mexico receives around 25 million visitors each year, the air traffic should be distributed better. However, I think things are changing. I would like to see traffic at GDL, MTY and TLC increase at a faster pace than MEX.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 9):
I would like to see traffic at GDL, MTY and TLC increase at a faster pace than MEX

I think it has been growing at a faster pace in CUN and, above all, TLC. And it will continue to do so. MTY, GLD and TIJ will greatly benefit from all the LCC's, and more specifically Viva Aerobus (MTY), Alma (GDL) and A Volar (TIJ).
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
N405MX
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 8):
= That was kind of the point of my thread. To understand better the lack of service. Given that you live there, what is your understanding of the lack of service?

Investmen on the airports, some really need more money to begin bigger operations, increase runways, etc, Click will begin service to AGS, the fokker is a good plane for those routes, but it gets kinda expensive to operate other types.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 5):
= Could ADN be like Toluca?

Click wanted a TLC-ADN flight, but it all vanished, as stated above, the operators of the ADN don´t want comercial service.

Saluds
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
juventus
Posts: 2017
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 10):
I think it has been growing at a faster pace in CUN and, above all, TLC. And it will continue to do so. MTY, GLD and TIJ will greatly benefit from all the LCC's, and more specifically Viva Aerobus (MTY), Alma (GDL) and A Volar (TIJ).

Agree. Good things taking shape in Mexico. Now TLC, GDL, MTY and TIJ have their own airline. Hopefully Alma will be able to compete against the others with CRJs.

Anybody know the lastest about Copa to GDL????
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:45 am

What's the deal with LCCs going across the border? Wasn't that a strategy for Viva Aerobus and Avolar?

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
pzurita1
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:13 am

Abrelosojos:

YOu could add to your list Aeromar and Magnicharters. Aladia instead of a LCC would be a charter airlines (just like Magnicharters). Aeromar flies to cities where no one else wants or serves as francise airlines. You included many destinations as AM when they are really served by VW metal.

You should also include NOG with its brand new service to HMO (5D).

There are plenty of other civil airports unused because of lack of facilities or lack of interest by airline. I can think in the followings:
1. Ensenada (3x to Isla Cedros in a DC3),
2. Puerto Peñasco (served before by Aviación del Noroeste),
3. Guaymas (served before by AM and 5D)
4. Nuevo Casas Grandes (served a long time ago by AM and in a city of over 100K inhabitants, close to Paquime ruins).
5. Monclova (served currently only by CO and non domestic flights. A flight LOV-MTY-MEX could be a good idea. 5D could not support it because it was only LOV-MTY)
6. Guerrero Negro. 5D flights had a subsidy and when it dissapeared also the 5D.
7. Tamuin, SLP (used to have flight many many years ago. Currently I guess it barely has a radar).
8. Matehuala, SLP (Allegro Regional tried it, but its financial success was clear: the airline went belly-up)
8. Cordoba (serving a metro area of almost 400K, it is more an airstrip with few facilities).
9. Tehuacán
10. Loma Bonita (Tuxtepec)
11. Apatzingán
12. Chilpancingo.
13. Comitán, San Cristóbal de las Casas, Palenque (all had previous services with VW or QA. Palenque in fact had an international flight to FRS)
14. Ocosingo in Chiapas
14. Playa del Carmen (just few chartered small a/c to CZM or Chichen Itza)
15. Chichen Itza (nice little airport with no sched service. Before was served by QA from CTM and CUN).

PZ
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EddieDude
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Pzurita1 (Reply 14):
5D could not support it because it was only LOV-MTY

I did not know the flight was no longer being offered. I guess many people preferred to drive, as Monclova is not that far from MTY. I believe service was 1x daily with a Saab 340.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
AM744
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 8):
= That was kind of the point of my thread. To understand better the lack of service. Given that you live there, what is your understanding of the lack of service?

Within reasonable distance from the three biggest urban areas on decent, albeit expensive highways. Airlines (not helped by high taxes that burden ticket price) don't compete with bus service in this particular case. This might change, but some tax sparing is in order.
 
captaink
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 8):
= That was kind of the point of my thread. To understand better the lack of service. Given that you live there, what is your understanding of the lack of service?



Quoting AM744 (Reply 16):
Airlines (not helped by high taxes that burden ticket price) don't compete with bus service in this particular case. This might change, but some tax sparing is in orde

Kinda slipped my mind, but coming to think of it, it would probably be very hard for the airlines to compete with the extensive bus system in Mexico. The bus lines offer great products for very low prices. Save for the length of travel time, it is usually the best way to go. For airlines to compete with that, it would mean very low ticket prices and probably flying very unprofitable routes.

Example.

Aguascalientes - Mexico, one way on the bus costs around 450MXN, 6.5 hr journey. Good route for an airplane probably take about 1 hour or less. But at 45US, is that going to be profitable?
There is something special about planes....
 
mtyfreak
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting N405MX (Reply 4):
There where plans to expand Del Norte Int´l -ADN- but the owner don´t want too, also because is way too far from the citie and the road is pretty dangerous to arrive.

That's about to change in the next years, There are a lot of new plans for ADN, specially now that the owner is about to loose the airport concession to a group of industrials that want to create a massive cargo terminal. no word about passenger service yet.

Runway 11/29 will be expanded and the laredo highway will be moved to give way to the larger runway.

There are studies undergoing right now and soon the plans for the future will be announced,

great to read all of you,

greetings,
Only here for the beer...
 
Gortsilo
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 2):
Are there other airports that can receive civilian traffic ... or that once did and now has no service?

PPE (Puerto Peñasco, a.k.a Rocky Point) has a new $100 million airport project under construction and expecting to open late this year; there is a BIG rumor that US Airways is looking very seriously at PPE, they could be first to fly there from PHX by 2008 once the construction is done. Also 5D is studying the market at PPE and there is a possibility for a HMO-PPE-HMO route.

Rocky Point is the fastest-growing resort city in Mexico, most of the tourist affluence there comes from the US --about 85% of the 2.2 million, as of 2005--, specially from Arizona and California, so sooner or later things will change at PPE, believe me.
 
N405MX
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 18):
That's about to change in the next years, There are a lot of new plans for ADN, specially now that the owner is about to loose the airport concession to a group of industrials that want to create a massive cargo terminal. no word about passenger service yet.

Runway 11/29 will be expanded and the laredo highway will be moved to give way to the larger runway.

There are studies undergoing right now and soon the plans for the future will be announced,

great to read all of you,

Hi Eugenio, lot of time without knowing about you.

About ADN, will be interesting to see how they move th Laredo highway, also, we will have to see how the owners of the nearby houses will behave because of the new movement of the airport, just to have in mind Portal del Norte and Portal de Zuazua, because they are located in part of the glidepath, but let´s see.

Saludos
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
mtyfreak
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:19 am

What's up Logan!

Quoting N405MX (Reply 20):
About ADN, will be interesting to see how they move th Laredo highway,

well, apparently, the way they're going to do that is by using an "entronque" (intersection) that is on the same road before the airport when you drive outbound Monterrey but who knows.

like you said, let's see what happens.

by the way, ILS at ADN is still inop due to traditional bureaucratic procedures.

Saludos!
Only here for the beer...
 
mtyfreak
Posts: 335
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting N405MX (Reply 20):
also, we will have to see how the owners of the nearby houses will behave because of the new movement of the airport, just to have in mind Portal del Norte and Portal de Zuazua,

for ADN it will probably be worse! , because since ADN/MMAN and MTY/MMMY are just 9nm apart from each other all traffic going to ADN has to arrive to the area with a maximun altitude of 2'500 feet unlike MTY where all traffic has to arrive at a minimun altitude of 3'000ft.

let's see what happens,

saludos
Only here for the beer...
 
adriaticus
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:33 pm

Any word about the so-called "Aeropuerto de la Riviera Maya", near Playa del Carmen? Is ASUR still blocking/trying to control its development?

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stirling
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RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
It seems all traffic is via hub, DF, or MTY/GDL. Is there really no demand?

It is a very complex issue, with no one reason or result.

The main issue with Mexico is that everything in Mexico revolves around Mexico City.
And even the next two biggest Metropolitan areas, Guadalajara and Monterrey are down-right provincial when compared to the capital.
Their economic and social influences extend only so far from thei city centres. It is rare for say a businessman in Hermosillo to have a need to go to Monterrey, or one in Oaxaca needing to get to Aquascaliente.

Foreign industry may indeed exist in all these places mentioned in a post above, but their travel habits tend to rely on those back to the mother country.....and not to other places in Mexico.

Future governments should look at the British example currently underway; in the attempt to curb congestion of the capital center, many governmental departments and agencies are being relocated in places such as Birmingham, Manchester, and even Edinburgh.

If Mexico were to do something like this, it would have wide reaching benefits, of course the airlines being one them.
Since every arm of the government found in the DF, it goes without saying business will follow the lead. Although it has been a pain in the rear for people needing to go from one point in Mexico to another, it is unfortunately what the majority needs.

Second point. The buses in Mexico have been perfected to the level of science, with second-class (Segunda), first-class (Primera), and executive/luxury-class coaches (Plus Clase/Clase Executiv) offering very attractive fares.
It has been a few years since I was in Guadalajara, but I remember a big sign out by my mother-in-law's home in Colonia Tolonia advertising a fare of 275MXN from Guadalajara to Morelia, and 375MXN to DF Mexico. (About $25USD and $35USD) My memory is not so good on which clase autobus this was for, but I think it was First.
Airfares, even on the LCC, are in the 599MXN to 899MXN range, (About $55USD to $80USD) but to Toluca....then one will still have to go over the hill to get to the DF.

Another big factor is Economics.
While unemployment in Mexico is very low, about 5%, it is *Underemployment* that is a problem....people have work, but not enough to bring them up to a higher living standard, 40% currently live below the level of poverty...especially troublesome in rural Mexico, not so prevalent in the major population centers where there generally is work for anyone who wants it.

The average person makes a little over 56,000MXN....or about $5,000USD.
Better than in years past, but is it enough to support an airline industry that is reflective of the enormous population?
It is interesting to note, Mexico does better in this regard than such places as China, India, Vietnam, Chile, Poland, Brazil, and South Africa.

The question I ask, do these Nations have better airline service than Mexico?
Some may answer China...but to what pct does it reach that enormous population.
Others my come back with India, it is certainly on its way, but the infrastructure can in no way handle even 10% of the people carried by rail everyday...
Brazil?
South Africa?

I cannot answer the question, because the variables on which to formulate the answer could be skewed a hundred different ways.

How do these other nations compare with their ground transportation networks? Trains, Buses, Ferrys, etc.

NationMaster Stats

Summary
1. Diversify and DeCentralize Government and Business.
2. Get people off the buses.
3. Raise the standard living for all.

I wish all the new airline entrants into Mexico well, but I am afraid there are too many, chasing too few.....for now.
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cdeanda
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2001 9:34 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 7):
why does AGU have such little service?

Hi,

I've heard rumors that we're going to start operations in AGU by the 1st half of this year.

Starting next month, with the arrival of 2 more airplanes (XA-VOC and -VOD), we'll have new flights to the following destinations:
Feb. 1st: Toluca-Los Cabos-Toluca
Feb. 8th: Tijuana-Morelia-Tijuana
Feb. 12th: Toluca-Leon-Toluca

Cheers,

Carlos de Anda
Volaris
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:03 am

Joe, your post is very interesting. It provides us lots of food for thought and will enable a great discussion I am sure.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 24):
While unemployment in Mexico is very low, about 5%, it is *Underemployment* that is a problem....

Yes, the issue is that our agency in charge of providing statistics considers that informal employment (e.g., people who sell anything, even illegal merchandise, on the streets, etcetera) equals employment and, therefore, those millions of people are not taken into account when measuring unemployment. So, on paper, we have the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America, even lower than in most developed countries, but this is a fallacy. In addition, this is a very serious issue because informal vendors and workers do not pay any taxes whatsoever, and that results in inadequate funding of the government. Moreover, the vast majority of informal vendors and workers live under the poverty line and do not enjoy public health services due to the fact that they are not registered with the Social Security Institute.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 24):
Mexico does better in this regard than such places as China, India, Vietnam, Chile, Poland, Brazil, and South Africa.

The question I ask, do these Nations have better airline service than Mexico?

Well, I don't know about all those countries, but I would think that Brazil does. As the country has a bigger extension than Mexico, travel by bus is less convenient, so air service can be in some cases more of a necessity than a luxury; in addition, I think that Rio, Manaus and Brasilia have a lot of traffic to and from other towns, cities and resorts, and therefore not everything revolves around Sao Paulo.

By the same logic, China should also have a better developed air transportation system.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
N405MX
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 1:46 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 26):
By the same logic, China should also have a better developed air transportation system

Or even Russia......

The problem is, all those "Sexenio Crisis" that affected aviation, misshandling of the airlines, political interests, and a lot of facts that we have to consider.

Saludos
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
AeroMexico767
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 5:23 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:02 am

It seems VivaAerobus is ready for AGU-MTY effective april 1st.. by the way.. how are they doing? Haven't heard nothing around Viva lately!

Quoting Cdeanda (Reply 25):
I've heard rumors that we're going to start operations in AGU by the 1st half of this year.

Yes!! I've heard that too!! Rumor: Volaris doing AGU-TLC-AGU starting during San Marcos Fair (April-May) going 2x daily!... Nothing official yet

There are other rumors about Interjet doing non-scheduled service into AGU according to Aguascalientes Tourism Bureau.

---------

In case this hall thing is true, what will happen back here?... during pick hours (yes no more than 3 airliners parked) there are no positions available as well as ticket counters. lets see how Grupo Aeroportuario del Pacifico and AGU management deals with it!

[Edited 2007-01-12 20:04:14]
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:11 am

ZIH has seen more flights in recent years - was there last Saturday and within the three hours I was at the airport the following birds were there at some point or other:

Delta 2x738 (ATL/LAX)
Continental ERJ & 733 (IAH)
Frontier A319 (DEN)
AA MD82 (DFW)
UAL A320 (LAX)
Alaska 73G and 738 (LAX)
Interjet A320
AeroMexico MD87
Air Canada A319
Magnicharters 732 & 733
Mexicana 319
Click F100
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
fly727
Posts: 1752
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 17):
Aguascalientes - Mexico, one way on the bus costs around 450MXN, 6.5 hr journey. Good route for an airplane probably take about 1 hour or less. But at 45US, is that going to be profitable?

Great point, exactly what VivaAerobus is after. They are not trying to steal traffic aay from Aviacsa or Mexicana (perhaps the two stronger ethnic carriers). Simply, VivaAerobus is creating its own traffic "à la Southwest" warming up routes with very low fares to gain access to public perception. They want the bus passengers and that has been stated by Viva several times; sort of contradictory as the main business of the Mexican partners in the deal is, precisely running bus companies.

Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 22):
for ADN it will probably be worse! , because since ADN/MMAN and MTY/MMMY are just 9nm apart from each other all traffic going to ADN has to arrive to the area with a maximun altitude of 2'500 feet unlike MTY where all traffic has to arrive at a minimun altitude of 3'000ft.

I don't think there is an altitude restriction in the Monterrey airports due to noise abatement. As a matter of fact the only restriction I can think of is for inbound traffic to MTY passing over ADN (3,100 feet and above) and which is set for aircraft vertical separation (those at traffic pattern of 1,500 AGL on ADN which is roughly around 2,700 feet MSL) and those flying the approach to runway 11 at MTY.

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 23):
Any word about the so-called "Aeropuerto de la Riviera Maya", near Playa del Carmen? Is ASUR still blocking/trying to control its development?

Allegedly the State of Quintana Roo is pushing hard for the project to become a reality. ASUR is pi$$ed. Expect looong delays and bureaucratic halts.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:05 am

Many replies deal with AGU, so I thought I'd add something too. I am completely unfamiliar with the facilities, the current service, future plans, etcetera, at AGU. However, I believe the government of Aguascalientes is doing a fantastic job of attracting private investment (domestic and foreign) to the state. I recently had the chance to work on a deal involving the acquisition of land in a government-owned industrial park in the outskirts of the city of Aguascalientes, and I was impressed (very positively) by the incentives (tax and otherwise) that the state is offering to investors. I did not have much contact with government officials, but I did gather too that they were very professional in their dealings with our client. My point here is that if the development of the region continues, its economy will grow and, therefore, the quality of life of its inhabitants will improve, which will create more demand for air travel to and from AGU.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 29):
ZIH has seen more flights in recent years - was there last Saturday

Hey Gus, happy new year! How was Ixtapa?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
I believe the government of Aguascalientes is doing a fantastic job of attracting private investment (domestic and foreign) to the state.
I agree with you. The evidence lies in the fact that the city is growing at an alarming rate. And I am not talking about a sudden influx of throngs of people, but the build up of industry and infrastructure. Noteworthy also is the fact that this growth is all controlled. So it seems as thought he government of the state of Aguascalientes, has great plans for the city.

I had the opportunity to read an article with some of these plans, which include, a twin tower world trade centre building, nascar track, a light rail system to connect various points within the metropolitan area and municipalities throughout the state, two very large shopping centres among other things. Hopefully the city's growth is also reflected in the air transportation options available.

Saludos

Edited for spelling...

[Edited 2007-01-12 23:54:10]
There is something special about planes....
 
MXComet4C
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:51 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 17):
probably be very hard for the airlines to compete with the extensive bus system in Mexico.

I absolutely agree with Capataink. Mexico's extensive highway system (You can now go on 4 lane highways in all of the country with the exception of the central part of the Baja California peninsula) discourages MSLs (Mexican short haul flights) and only encourages MLHs (Mexican long haul flights).

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loves to drive routes like MID-CUN, GDL-ZLO, TIJ-ESE, MTT-VER, SJD-LAP, SLP-MTY, MEX-QRO, PBC-OAX, and mid-distance ones like MEX-GDL (6hrs), MEX-MTY (9hrs), MEX-VSA (7hrs) they are all excellent toll 4 lane highways.

Not only good to drive, but with 1st class 24 hr. bus service.

I wish I had statistics, but for a long time Mexico's City's 4 bus terminals, any of them the size of MEX without the runways (Many more than 40 operations at a time at each one) have rendered the airport (though technologically spectacular) a minor transportation hub for MSHs.

Biz mid-distance flights (i.e. MEX-GDL, MTY-PBC) and MLHs (i.e. MEX-HMO, GDL-MXL, MEX-CZM, MTY-CUN) will remain the niche for Mexican aviation to develop domestically if they don't want to compete with the highway system.

The newest, most brilliant route I can think of, that meets this criteria is RepublicAir's TAP-QRO-TPQ-TIJ. (It was originally planned to be GUA-QRO-TPQ-TIJ).

Anything above 12 hours on a bus (i.e. MEX-TIJ takes 45 hours and MEX-CUN 20 hours) is the place for Mexican aviation to look after within the country.
Let's go UPN-DWN
 
anthsaun
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:32 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:14 pm

Sorry, my point of view about buses is a little different:

* Buses are slow (95km/hr).
* They shake like an airplane facing strong winds, but all the time.
* Higher accident rate than air travel.
* Stinky.
* Not good for business travel; not even on short runs.
* Luggage gets stolen easily.
* No meal service. Only tea and coffee on luxury service.
* No FA


I rather drive at my own speed and timing.


Nevertheless you are right. Mexico is kind of a small country in comparison with Brazil, USA, Canada, China, Australia, and Russia. So air travel is for long domestic travels and international.
Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 34):

* Buses are slow (95km/hr).
* They shake like an airplane facing strong winds, but all the time.
* Higher accident rate than air travel.
* Stinky.
* Not good for business travel; not even on short runs.
* Luggage gets stolen easily.
* No meal service. Only tea and coffee on luxury service.
* No FA

1. Yes they are slow, that is my problem. I spend less time on my flight from GDL to DFW than I do on the bus from Aguas to GDL.

2. I have been on some VERY VERY comfortable bus rides. Smooth for being on the road. And the seats recline to what something like 45 degrees on the on the 1st class services, and on the Ejecutivo, almost flat. I went from Cuernavaca to Queretaro on Turistar once, it was a very pleasant experience.

3. Stinkiness may vary according to the bus lines used. Big grin

4. Sucks for business travel, due to long travel times.

5. Never had a luggage problem, but I dont have much authority to comment on that as I have no idea, what the situation is with that.

6. I usually get a sandwich, or muffin, with soda or water, on most lines. I just came to NY a few days ago, and I ate 2 small packets of pretzels, one small packet of mixed snacks, with sodas in total for my two flights. I get more on the bus lines to eat. Big grin

7. Don't need an FA. They don't do much anyhow these days due to the lack of meals on flights.

I haven't flown a Mexican carrier to this date, so I have no idea what the meal service is like on domestic or international flights. I have heard they do offer meals. Is that the case on all flights?

Putting the business travellers aside, as their needs are special and flying is usually a better option, what about the average Mexican trying to get to Mexico City and other places to visit family? It would be nice to have the option of flying at a relatively cheap price.
There is something special about planes....
 
N405MX
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 1:46 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting AeroMexico767 (Reply 28):
It seems VivaAerobus is ready for AGU-MTY effective april 1st.. by the way.. how are they doing? Haven't heard nothing around Viva lately!

Lot´s of delays, and cancelled flights because the lack of equipment, they begin wet leasing a plane from Magnicharters, but was too expensive and they don´t pay, so they began leasing a RepublicAir plane and then a Nova, now they are leasing XA-TWR from Conviasa.

Quoting AeroMexico767 (Reply 28):
Yes!! I've heard that too!! Rumor: Volaris doing AGU-TLC-AGU starting during San Marcos Fair (April-May) going 2x daily!... Nothing official yet

Add click to AGU/AGS and BJX.

Quoting MXComet4C (Reply 33):
I'm sure I'm not the only one that loves to drive routes like MID-CUN, GDL-ZLO, TIJ-ESE, MTT-VER, SJD-LAP, SLP-MTY, MEX-QRO, PBC-OAX, and mid-distance ones like MEX-GDL (6hrs), MEX-MTY (9hrs), MEX-VSA (7hrs) they are all excellent toll 4 lane highways.

Some nice trips like MTY-TAM, by car you can make 5 hrs -I did 5:15 last october on my 206- but for example, MTY-DGO, really nice highway but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooo expen$$$$$$ive, last october, on the free highway, you make up to 8 hrs, but on the toll highway you can make 6hrs, but the problem is, you´ll have to pay, for the entire highway almost $75USD one way.

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 34):
Sorry, my point of view about buses is a little different:

* Buses are slow (95km/hr).
* They shake like an airplane facing strong winds, but all the time.
* Higher accident rate than air travel.
* Stinky.
* Not good for business travel; not even on short runs.
* Luggage gets stolen easily.
* No meal service. Only tea and coffee on luxury service.
* No FA

Agree with Captaink; depends on the bus line, is not the same a Grupo Senda "Sendor" service or "Turistar Ejecutivo" than Estrella Blanca or Flecha Roja, even ETN and UNO buses are really different, don´t even mention ADO GL.

And sometimes you get pretty high speeds on buses -arround 115-120kph-

Saludos
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
edelag
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:35 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:35 pm

I am glad to see MTY and Del Norte progressing.

A quick question where is the new airport in QRO and what type of runways does it have, etc?

Gracias,
Saludos
It's not just the destination, it's the journey.
 
adriaticus
Posts: 989
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:29 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:07 am

We agree with most comments with reference to how good is the Mexican bus /highway system and what a formidable challenge it is for air travel development. In fact, the toughest portion to beat is the value for money (regardless traveling second class or de luxe services) the bus lines offer.

Quoting Edelag (Reply 37):
A quick question where is the new airport in QRO and what type of runways does it have, etc?

As per GCM:

Location
City: Querétaro, México
Name: Ingeniero Fernando Espinoza Gutiérrez International Airport
ICAO / IATA: MMQT / QRO

Details
Type: Airport (Aerodrome, Airfield)
Latitude: 20°37'02"N (20.617289)
Longitude: 100°11'08"W (-100.185658)
Datum: WGS 1984
Elevation: 6296 ft (1919 m)
Timezone: UTC-6 (DST-5)
Runways: 1
Longest: 11483 × 148 ft (3500 × 45 m)

I hear the reinforced hydraulic concrete 3500m x45m runway, taxiways, as well as the control tower, and navigation aids are all state of the art. The terminal building, general aviation facilities, and customs/fiscalized precinct are also supposed to be first class. Haven't seen it yet.

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toxtethogrady
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Analysis:

Here is what I came up with in terms of route analysis

Continental is lurking. The cities on the list not served from Houston (IAH), and therefore not connected to the United States, are:

Tijuana (too far away)
Mexicali (also too far away)
Ciudad Juarez (El Paso, but might be a candidate)
Ciudad Obregon (big enough market yet?)
Hermosillo (didn't work out the first time; second time lucky?)
Loreto (a bit far, but you never know)
Los Mochis (big enough market yet?)
Culiacan (big enough!)
Colima (what's the draw?)
Lazaro Cardenas (similar question)
Salina Cruz (needs to develop)
Tapachula (at the other end of the world)
Chetumal (also needs to develop)
Campeche (not yet at the level of Ciudad Carmen)
Tuxtla Gutierrez (the Zapatista thing)
Minatitlan (seems ripe)
Uruapan (not yet ripe)
Zacatecas (CO couldn't make it work the first time)
Tepic (oil?)
Ciudad Victoria (not big enough yet)
Reynosa, Matamoros, Nuevo Laredo - towns on the Rio Grande are too easily served from Brownsville, Laredo, McAllen

Who will get there first - CO or a Mexican carrier?
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 39):
Continental is lurking. The cities on the list not served from Houston (IAH), and therefore not connected to the United States, are:

Tijuana (too far away)
Mexicali (also too far away)
Ciudad Juarez (El Paso, but might be a candidate)
 checkmark Ciudad Obregon (big enough market yet?)
Hermosillo (didn't work out the first time; second time lucky?)
 checkmark Loreto (a bit far, but you never know)
Los Mochis (big enough market yet?)
Culiacan (big enough!)
Colima (what's the draw?)
Lazaro Cardenas (similar question)
Salina Cruz (needs to develop)
Tapachula (at the other end of the world)
Chetumal (also needs to develop)
Campeche (not yet at the level of Ciudad Carmen)
Tuxtla Gutierrez (the Zapatista thing)
Minatitlan (seems ripe)
 checkmark  Uruapan (not yet ripe)
 checkmark  Zacatecas (CO couldn't make it work the first time)
Tepic (oil?)
Ciudad Victoria (not big enough yet)
Reynosa, Matamoros, Nuevo Laredo - towns on the Rio Grande are too easily served from Brownsville, Laredo, McAllen

I don't think Loreto is too far, its around 900nm from IAH....but the traffic, ground or otherwise is very regional, but what a great beachfront location; the way places like Mazatlan, Cabo, PVR used to be 30 years ago.
It would take a concerted marketing effort on behalf of the local tourist industry, and even then, we still may be at least 5 years away.

Hermosillo confuses me....I was certain this route would work. I knew many Ford guys who disliked the connection via Phoenix via T-Prop....but then again, we're talking, if I remember correctly, only 200 total trips a month....and we all know that is not enough to sustain regular service.
Maybe the timing wasn't there, I bet it will work in the future!

Also residing in my "confused bucket", Zacatecas.
I have never seen an aircraft take up more of the runway at Oakland, than I have the late night Mexicana run to ZCL! That poor plane was loaded!

I will go into why tho', Northern Californias did not take advantage of the Continental service through Houston, which was priced very competively against the MX flight; Almost $200 less!, and yet still, the folks would have the nonstop or nothing!

There's Uruapan being in the middle of that large Michoachan diaspora would lead one to think there would be something there....but most of that pipeline is to California for now....
A connection in Houston is a moot point, 99% of the people would rather drive to Tijuana and fly from there, then change planes, or in the case of my brother in law, DRIVE! (As he did one year from MOD to MTY)
My Tita, (What my children call their Abeulita), bless her heart, even though she is completely legal, is convinced La Migre is going to catch her in Houston and deport her back to Mexico, or miss her connection, or windup lost, etc, etc....She's old, so I can empathize. However, her attitude is not unique.

I bring her up to make a point, Many Mexican peoples in the U.S. have a bugaboo about connections.....So unless the VFR pool of passengers is based in SE Texas, SW Louisiana (i.e., within reasonable driving distance from IAH), Continental going for this customer base beyond this region might be a stretch. I would love to see the traffic makeup on these flights, connections versus O/D passengers.

The only way I was able to get her to connect in IAH to GDL the one year she went with, was because the wife, kids, and I went along, but it is something she would never do alone.

This factors into the success of these new markets Mexicana is forging into unlikely places such as Fresno and Portland....the regional population around those airports finally can make it home nonstop, and no longer need to make laborious trips to either SFO or LAX.

I think Continental has Mexico covered very well at this point, in my opinion, if they are to expand on their success, it is going to have to be point-2-point from other cities than Houston.....Los Angeles region, San Francisco Bay Area, the Central Valley....

What would be amazing, if Continental were to think WAY outside the box and begin flying to Mexico destinations from central California cities.
Like Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton, Modesto**, Merced*, even Salinas or Visalia!....YES, I realize this is wishful thinking, but it is not as if there isn't a strong foundation of fact in my reasoning.

*That is if they move airline operations over to Castle, with that 4th longest runway in the state of California. They just got there ATC Tower staffed so it may not be that far off. The current Merced (MCE) airport is inferior.
A terminal building at MER is planned for construction next year.

The big problem is that it takes about $2 million to get all the necessary Customs and Immigrations requirements in place. Look at the long road of Stockton...they have an airline ready and waiting, its just a matter of being able to handle the international ops.

**Big Metro, Puny airport. To avoid payload restrictions on their LR ExpressJet fleet from the short runway, the best they could hope for is extreme NW Mexico, which is not where the locals need to go unfortunately  Sad
It will never happen from there, but Stockton is a possibility, if they can break the curse of that place.....too close to OAK and SCK.

OK, I think I've bored you fellas for long enough!!!!
Trust me, I could go on!!!!
Delete this User
 
N405MX
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 1:46 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
Also residing in my "confused bucket", Zacatecas.
I have never seen an aircraft take up more of the runway at Oakland, than I have the late night Mexicana run to ZCL! That poor plane was loaded!

ORD-ZCL on the A318 usually arrives with 4tons of bags + cargo, ZCL-ORD sometimes really departs heavy, I´ll check the flight closures to post the info.

Saludos
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Mexico Aviation Thread: 1

Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
What would be amazing, if Continental were to think WAY outside the box and begin flying to Mexico destinations from central California cities.
Like Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton, Modesto**, Merced*, even Salinas or Visalia!....YES, I realize this is wishful thinking, but it is not as if there isn't a strong foundation of fact in my reasoning.

Mexicana and AeroMexico are moving to sew up that market. If anything, CAL's downsizing their regional operations.

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