AC787
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Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:03 am

I'm generally just angry that here in Canada airlines can post "deals" such as montreal to london (one way) for 99 dollars. As a student whose always looking for a cheap ticket to somewhere cool this sounds great, so searching the ticket for the given days you get to see the following ridiculous statement:

TOTAL PRICING Amount PST Departure
Taxes, Fees & Fuel Surcharges

$198.00 $320.60
Amount Paid to Date $0.00

Final Amount $518.60

This is completley ridiculous, that the rules arent being changed is a testament to the weakness of the Canadian consumer. Why is it Europeans have the full airline price advertised and us canadians get pushed over. This misrepresentation of price is not only bad, the fact that theres 320 dollars in taxes and fees and fuel is a sad state of affairs in itself. I hope things change sometime soon.

AC787
 
Boeing777/747
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting AC787 (Thread starter):
Why is it Europeans have the full airline price advertised and us canadians get pushed over.

Disagree. For example the Dutch court has decided recently that Dutch airline transavia.com is allowed to continue their misleading advertising campaigns with the 'tax free' ticket pricing.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:26 am

This is a matter for the Canadian Consumer Affairs people...and its not just air fares either. The full price for everything should be advertised (including GST and PST). Since these are mandatory charges, why not include them in the price? (There is an added benefit here that you would not be reminded of how much you dislike the government every time you have to buy something)
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ANother
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:31 am

Gee, aren't you also angry when you go to the Bay, see a pair of jeans for $29.99, take them to the cash desk and have to shell out $33.56? (or whatever). In Canada GST, PST, etc are not included in the price. So why should all the government, airport (and sometimes surcharges) taxes, fees and charges be included in the price of an airline ticket.
 
AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
Gee, aren't you also angry when you go to the Bay, see a pair of jeans for $29.99, take them to the cash desk and have to shell out $33.56? (or whatever). In Canada GST, PST, etc are not included in the price. So why should all the government, airport (and sometimes surcharges) taxes, fees and charges be included in the price of an airline ticket.

Well when I go to the bay and buy my pair of jeans i at least know in advance that the tax will be 14% of the cost. Whereas with airline tickets I never have an exact idea of how much more the ticket is and when the real price ranges from 50% to 200% higher then the advertised price something feels wrong. It simply does not make sense.

[Edited 2007-01-10 23:39:52]
 
Australia1
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting AC787 (Thread starter):
This is completley ridiculous, that the rules arent being changed is a testament to the weakness of the Canadian consumer. Why is it Europeans have the full airline price advertised and us canadians get pushed over. This misrepresentation of price is not only bad, the fact that theres 320 dollars in taxes and fees and fuel is a sad state of affairs in itself. I hope things change sometime soon.

the problem really is that taxes are seen by many inc. govt's & airports as easy way to increase revenue by getting airlines to collect it.

If, you had to pay taxes at airport you are departing from airlines would love it (as they would simply sell more tickets - but pax would be annoyed having to pay all this money at departure).

You used to pay Australian departure tax now AUD$38/adult over 11 years at international airport, now airline collects it. In New Zealand, you still have to pay it at airport NZD$25, if departing from regular international aiport (if departing internationally from an airport with little international traffic, eg. charter, then airport or airline collects).

Fuel surcharges are another thing !!! Airlines like QF have turned fuel into a profit centre, as most is hedged but they mkae out they are paying todays price. That's a rip off !!!
 
oznznut
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:49 am

I believe that all ads, regardless of the item (plane ticket, loaf of bread, pair of jeans ) should list only the total you should have to pay. I dont care about fees, taxes, surcharges, etc. Tell me, UPFRONT, how much I have to write the check for.

Dave
 
Australia1
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Oznznut (Reply 6):
I believe that all ads, regardless of the item (plane ticket, loaf of bread, pair of jeans ) should list only the total you should have to pay. I dont care about fees, taxes, surcharges, etc. Tell me, UPFRONT, how much I have to write the check for.

Dave

yes but airlines & their agents, don't want to be tax collectors. What if airlines were to say to govt's/airports etc, stuff you, collect your own bloody taxes/charges.

Simply, the airlines would sell more tix !!!
 
AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 7):
yes but airlines & their agents, don't want to be tax collectors. What if airlines were to say to govt's/airports etc, stuff you, collect your own bloody taxes/charges.

Simply, the airlines would sell more tix !!!

Well the airlines and the agents have to live with being tax collectors or cease operating, every business collects taxes for the government and these business would be selling more tv's, cars, etc if they didnt have too. The difference is you usually know exactly how much taxes your paying whereas in the airline industry we have an exorbitant rate. Electronic stores would be laughed out of business if they advertised a tv for 500 dollars, but then told the consumer when it was time to pay that the price was actually 1200 dollars. Enough is enough
 
Australia1
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 8):
Well the airlines and the agents have to live with being tax collectors or cease operating, every business collects taxes for the government and these business would be selling more tv's, cars, etc if they didnt have too. The difference is you usually know exactly how much taxes your paying whereas in the airline industry we have an exorbitant rate. Electronic stores would be laughed out of business if they advertised a tv for 500 dollars, but then told the consumer when it was time to pay that the price was actually 1200 dollars. Enough is enough

yes but what you're saying is,

1) either outside their control, if you're saying they have to collect taxes, but if they refuse, then what can happen?



Airlines have much more political power than a small retailer.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 4):
Well when I go to the bay and buy my pair of jeans i at least know in advance that the tax will be 14% of the cost. Whereas with airline tickets I never have an exact idea of how much more the ticket is and when the real price ranges from 50% to 200% higher then the advertised price something feels wrong. It simply does not make sense.

I hear ya. Going from YOW to PSP next month. Not only Navcan fees, AIF, GST, USA transportation tax, US pax facility charge, US immigration fee, there is also a 9/11 security fee (I suppose this helps fund TSA ?? - can any Americans clarify please?) and, finally, a US 'agriculture fee'. WTF ? I did not know air travel had an agricultural component.

Base ticket is $577.98 CDN, all taxes & fees are a total of $143.31 CDN. For American readers, current exchange rate is about $1 CDN = $0.85 US.
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ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:58 am

I have to agree with the thread starter on this one, the "advertising" practices by airlines in Canada are beyond ridiculous.

One of my favourites are YVR-FRA for $365 as an example. Read the fine print, not only do you have to add all the taxes, fees, surcharges and such, but it is also advertised as a "one-way" fare, however, you must purchase a return ticket. Yet, they advertise a one-way fare for $365.

Some airlines, such as LH or LT, advertise the price you have to pay, including everything, then in the fine print they list all the fees, taxes and surcharges. Much smarter advertising in my opinion.
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AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 9):
but if they refuse, then what can happen?

A company is obligated to respect the laws of the country there operating in. Refusing to charge the taxes would result in them not operating in the country, I dont rlly understand what your point is on this. I'm just saying that they should advertise the full price and not a price that is between 50 to 200% cheaper then the true price, and that taxes, fees, airport rents etc. are too high.
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting AC787 (Thread starter):
TOTAL PRICING Amount PST Departure
Taxes, Fees & Fuel Surcharges

$198.00 $320.60
Amount Paid to Date $0.00

Final Amount $518.60

You are complaining about this price?! This is still pretty damn good in comparison to other airlines, but I do agree taxes are pretty much up there.
 
AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 13):
You are complaining about this price?! This is still pretty damn good in comparison to other airlines, but I do agree taxes are pretty much up there.

No, I'm complaining that the far was advertised as being a deal at 200 dollars return, when the true cose is 2 and a half times this approximatly. I am also complaining at the amount of taxes/fees there are, 320$ on a 200 dollar ticket does not make sense.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Qantas is currently being sued by a group of travel agents who are claiming that fuel surcharges are really part of the fare, and not a surcharge.

In a normal business, when costs rise, prices do too. To disguise a price rise as a fuel surcharge is to avoid paying commissions on it, as agencies only get a fraction of the fare, not the charges. Maybe there is something similar going on in Canada?
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toltommy
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
and, finally, a US 'agriculture fee'. WTF ? I did not know air travel had an agricultural component.

You are subject to an agricultural inspection as part of the entry process, the fee pays for the inspection.

Back to the topic, some fees are dependant on the routing, such as AIF/PFC charges at connecting cities. Those would be hard to include in advertisements. But fuel charges and inspection fees are fixed, and probably should be included in the advertised price.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:38 am

I have to agree with the thread starter on this one, the "advertising" practices by airlines in Canada are beyond ridiculous.

Look at it from the airline's perspective. The price that they are charging is low but becomes significantly higher due to government taxes over which they have no control. To go the other way and just advertise the final amount would make it look to the passenger as if all that money is going to the air carrier

Were I an executive changed with making a decision on this, I'd certainly want the travelling public to know where their money is going, and where it isn't going.

In fact, I'd have it in big bold letters on the boarding pass: "You paid the federal government $XXX today in fees and taxes," along with a pre-paid feedback form so that the passenger can tell their MP what they think.

But that's just me.

Doogie
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 17):
To go the other way and just advertise the final amount would make it look to the passenger as if all that money is going to the air carrier

It works in other countries where the airline advertises the final price and breaks it down in the fine print.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 17):
Were I an executive changed with making a decision on this, I'd certainly want the travelling public to know where their money is going, and where it isn't going.

The advertising practice used by companies in Canada (not just airline, but mobile phone providers among others) is not only very consumer unfriendly, but is also borderline false advertising.

You'll get more irate customers by advertising the price your company charges for their service and putting on restrictions (such as advertising one-way fares but having to purchase a return ticket) and adding all the fees (which some are from the airline itself such as reservation fees), taxes and surcharges which, in many cases, double the price of what you are advertising.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 17):
In fact, I'd have it in big bold letters on the boarding pass: "You paid the federal government $XXX today in fees and taxes," along with a pre-paid feedback form so that the passenger can tell their MP what they think.

The majority of customers don't care where the money goes and won't take any action against it other then complain to the airline representitive, ticket agent, reservation agent or travel agent.
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yyz717
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:52 am

Don't blame the airlines; they are doing nothing illegal.

The tax regime is imposed the Federal Govt. Blame them.

Anyone who ever voted for a socialist party (Liberal or worse NDP) has voted directly for a high tax-and-spend regime that includes indiscriminate taxes on airlines and airports that fall into general government coffers, with no accountability or direct allocation to the air travel infrastructure.

If you want more reasonable (i.e. lower) taxes, you need to vote on the right (Tory, or Libertarian).

It's that simple.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:01 am

It works in other countries where the airline advertises the final price and breaks it down in the fine print.

Other countries don't have as high a level of taxes as Canada does.

The majority of customers don't care where the money goes and won't take any action against it other then complain to the airline representitive, ticket agent, reservation agent or travel agent.

That's absolutely what the federal government is counting on, which is why the industry needs to do a better job of educating the public and highlighting the issue. I don't agree that people don't care where the money goes. Canadians absolutely care about taxes, but they have too see them to know the difference.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 20):
Other countries don't have as high a level of taxes as Canada does.

 Confused I wouldn't bet on that one.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 20):
That's absolutely what the federal government is counting on, which is why the industry needs to do a better job of educating the public and highlighting the issue.

It won't matter if you include all the taxes and fees in the price up front or if you only advertise the base fare and advertise all the other charges in the fine print, customers will let their frustrations be known to whoever it is they are talking to while booking. However, less people would complain if they were not lead on by these advertising practices.
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AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 18):
The advertising practice used by companies in Canada (not just airline, but mobile phone providers among others) is not only very consumer unfriendly, but is also borderline false advertising.

You'll get more irate customers by advertising the price your company charges for their service and putting on restrictions (such as advertising one-way fares but having to purchase a return ticket) and adding all the fees (which some are from the airline itself such as reservation fees), taxes and surcharges which, in many cases, double the price of what you are advertising.

Exactly.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
If you want more reasonable (i.e. lower) taxes, you need to vote on the right (Tory, or Libertarian).

It's that simple.

Well, I'm waiting for the tories to do something on this...

AC787
 
brilondon
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:37 am

In Canada the airlines can advertise at any amount they feel like but the Nav Canada fee and other additional taxes and surcharges are usually a set price and not a percentage like sales tax. This should be included in the price as advertised.

Consumer advocate groups in Canada have been fighting this very issue to show the actual cost of a ticket.

I am lucky I have a choice to use Canadian airports or I am only a two hour drive from three airports in the US. The fares are usually about $400 to $500 less expensive then the Canadian airports just based on landing fees and other added taxes.

As for we Canadians not being the highest taxed population in the western hemisphere that's right. We are second highest. Only Sweden has a higher taxed population.
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ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 23):
As for we Canadians not being the highest taxed population in the western hemisphere that's right. We are second highest. Only Sweden has a higher taxed population.

Sweden, along with most other European countries are taxed much more then us in Canada.

Also, this is not just on how much we have to pay in taxes, fees and surcharges, but more on how the airline advertises their product.

[Edited 2007-01-11 21:11:15]
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Reply 1):
For example the Dutch court has decided recently that Dutch airline transavia.com is allowed to continue their misleading advertising campaigns with the 'tax free' ticket pricing.

Does this ruling apply to KLM as well?

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 23):
As for we Canadians not being the highest taxed population in the western hemisphere that's right. We are second highest. Only Sweden has a higher taxed population.

Not true, much of western Europe is taxed higher than Canada. At least with income tax.

Flight taxes in Canada are not as bad as they are in Europe despite some claims to the contrary in the this thread. Book a flight departing Germany and you'll see what I mean.

Kris
 
JAL777
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:44 am

Once again, airlines fool unsuspecting consumers into paying for "taxes" that are nothing more than fuel surcharges going straight to the pockets of the airline. The practice is pathetic but unfortunately, it works.  Angry
 
drgmobile
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:02 am

Flight taxes in Canada are not as bad as they are in Europe despite some claims to the contrary in the this thread. Book a flight departing Germany and you'll see what I mean.

If I book a weekend trip right now, Berlin to London, EUR 29,45 in airfare and EUR 30 in fees/taxes for EUR 60 roundtrip. Would I pay less than EUR 30 in fees and taxes roundtrip anywhere in Canada?
 
AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 25):
Not true, much of western Europe is taxed higher than Canada. At least with income tax.

Flight taxes in Canada are not as bad as they are in Europe despite some claims to the contrary in the this thread. Book a flight departing Germany and you'll see what I mean.

Do you have any examples of the amount of tax on german ticket? Generally in europe is the price advertised not the price thats payed or at least reasonably close? I would be surprised to hear that there are cases where airlines advertise 200 dollar fares that in actual fact are 520 dollars in europe. Europeans generally seem to take less consumer injustice then Canadians. An example I like is in the UK banks do not charge customers a fee if they use another banks atm to take out funds (they tried to implement them and failed), whereas in Canada the practise is very much in use and adds a huge amount of profits to the Banks.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 28):
Do you have any examples of the amount of tax on german ticket?

LH for example right now is advertising Germany to Rome for €99, I found a roundtrip for €87.62 plus €13 equals €100.62 total owing by the customer. World of difference.

Just as a comparrison, WS advertises a fare of $69 for a flight from YYC to YVR, total paid after taxes, fees and surcharges is $113.07 which is $44.07 in extra charges, almost double the fare advertised. These fees don't even include other fees which are charged if one does not book on-line. As an example, AC charges an extra $20 if you phone in your booking.

[Edited 2007-01-11 23:30:03]
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Australia1
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 12):
A company is obligated to respect the laws of the country there operating in. Refusing to charge the taxes would result in them not operating in the country, I dont rlly understand what your point is on this. I'm just saying that they should advertise the full price and not a price that is between 50 to 200% cheaper then the true price, and that taxes, fees, airport rents etc. are too high.

It something is not right, you don't just put up with it, you do something about it.

If airlines think it's effecting sales, then they should tell the govt's we're not going to collect these ridiculous charges anymore.

Perhaps, airlines have worked out, that they will sell more tix this way & I tend to agree.

Govt's can't say you must collect such & such tax, but you can't make people.

In Australia, for example, cash is becoming king. Many businesses now offer discounts for cash, instead of paying with cards. Some of these businesses, obviously don't declare all their cash.

When it comes down to it, if people think taxes are excessive they will get around it, whether govt likes it or not.

With airline taxes to change & be incorporated in price of a ticket, they will have to be major chnages acceptable to the airlines.

In OZ, taxes change with the exhange rate, as many in US dllars when travelling to U.S.

Advertising int fares in OZ, is meant to show taxes/charegs as additional, but you can't give a precise fare inc. taxes/charges as they change with time & otherwise, the price when ad placed would be different when actually published.

Flight Centre one of the biggest travel agent groups in world have 1/2 dozen lines of meaningless microprint legal mumbo jumbo, under their large & expensive ads. No one reads it even if they can, so only beneficiary is good old Rupert Murdoch & other newspapers owners !!!
 
accargo
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:55 am

For the OP, just as you know that the Bay will add 14% to the price of the jeans, you now know that the price of a ticket to LHR will be $320 more than the add price.

If you want it changed, get the gov't to do something about it. The airlines are doing nothing wrong. You might also want to complain to the countries your flying to, as their taxes and fee's are also beyond the airlines control and are added to the final cost.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 31):
The airlines are doing nothing wrong

The airlines in Canada are doing this by choice, there is no Federal legislation requiring the airlines to advertise only the "base" fare.

Government taxes (PST, HST, GST) are one thing, but NavCan, airport fees, fuel surcharges are not included in the advertised price by choice.

Canadian consumer protection agencies have been after the airlines to change the practice of "sticker shock", but there is no legislation requiring them to do so.
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connies4ever
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 16):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
and, finally, a US 'agriculture fee'. WTF ? I did not know air travel had an agricultural component.

You are subject to an agricultural inspection as part of the entry process, the fee pays for the inspection.

TOL --

Thank you for the clarification, I did not know that !
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AC787
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 31):
For the OP, just as you know that the Bay will add 14% to the price of the jeans, you now know that the price of a ticket to LHR will be $320 more than the add price.

If you want it changed, get the gov't to do something about it. The airlines are doing nothing wrong.

Noone is saying the airlines are doing anything wrong, they generally seem to be law-abiding companies, but the kind of advertising thats going on is misinforming the average consumer. Alot of ppl don't travel alot, they see a good deal and think its there lucky day only to be shocked to see the real price. It simply does not make sense to advertise a product at 40%, and sometimes lower, of the actual cost, it seems to be a pretty clear cut point to me. Theres lots of issues about what makes the cost this high, where these fees are coming from, but the bottom line is the consumer should expect advertised prices to be somewhere close to reality.

This kind of advertising needs to be stopped and hopefully the government will do something about, I sent a letter to my MP but I'm not exactly holding my breath on anything getting done.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 31):
For the OP, just as you know that the Bay will add 14% to the price of the jeans, you now know that the price of a ticket to LHR will be $320 more than the add price.

Adding 14% tax is one thing, but when an advertised prices end up being close to or more than double then what they are printed, that is beyond misleading.
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Strathpeffer
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 17):
I'd have it in big bold letters on the boarding pass: "You paid the federal government $XXX today in fees and taxes," along with a pre-paid feedback form so that the passenger can tell their MP what they think.

This is a marvellous idea, and should be applied to everything, not just airfares and not just in Canada. I don't think people in the UK have the faintest idea how much money they uncomplainingly hand over to the government.

I too am increasingly riled by the application of taxes, insurance and surcharges after an airfare has been quoted. There is a pretty strong argument that insurance and fuel costs, which are a direct part of the airlines operating costs, should be included in the fare. After all, when I buy something from Amazon they don't charge me for the book and then add a surcharge for the glue holding it together and delivery from the printer to their warehouse do they?

This practice’s sole purpose is to conceal the true cost of the fare from the consumer till the last possible moment and while it may not be unlawful; it certainly should be.

FlyBE are particularly bad at adding extras. Browse their website and you will see that on some routes (mostly where they have competitors) taxes, insurance and surcharges are included in the quoted price and on others (generally monopoly routes) they aren't. As if that wasn't enough, the taxes, insurance and surcharges vary from route to route, even when sectors are broadly similar lengths.

PJ
Another Technical Problem?
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:31 pm

Just for discusion purposes, the following ticket price is from YYZ-GLA-YYZ. Great base price of C$448.00 but a total of C$388.17 in additional fees! A total price to pay of C$836.17

Passenger Type Adult
Base Fare 448.00
Fuel Surcharge 188.00

Taxes, Fees and Charges:
Canada Airport Improvement Fee 20.00
Canada Security Charge 17.00
U.K. Passenger Service Charge 70.46
Canada Goods and Services Tax 1.20
U.K. Air Passenger Duty 91.51
Total airfare and taxes before options (per passenger) 836.17

I agree with the thread starter that the final price should be shown in all consumer advertisements including items in stores. The price you see should be the price you pay!
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
drgmobile
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:41 pm

If airlines think it's effecting sales, then they should tell the govt's we're not going to collect these ridiculous charges anymore.

Perhaps, airlines have worked out, that they will sell more tix this way & I tend to agree.


For the record, the air carriers have been lobbying extensively -- publicly and privately -- for lower taxation of the aviation sector.

Clearly both consumers and the air carriers have a point. The consumer has the right to know the cost and the airline should be able to illustrate to passengers just how much of what they are paying goes directly into other hands. Perhaps as a suggested solution the carriers should be advertising both amounts, the way some package operators do.

Only thing is, don't expect AC to do it if WestJet isn't doing it...
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 37):
agree with the thread starter that the final price should be shown in all consumer advertisements including items in stores. The price you see should be the price you pay!

Why don't we in Canada follow other countries where the price you see is the price you pay. It is false advertising at it's best. I know that some will say that it is not, but for me I like to see the final price on the article that I buy not things that have to be tacked on
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
808TWA
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 39):
Why don't we in Canada follow other countries where the price you see is the price you pay

In the UK, where I'm originally from, the final price to be paid on most products is shown, especially in stores.

I've been in Canada for 15 years now and still haven't gotten used to adding tax to every price I see on the shelf. It's frustrating and annoying for anyone used to the other way. Indeed, it's definately confusing and can be quite embarassing for those visiting our Country who are used to seeing the final price and arrive at the cashier with insufficient cash.

Personally, Id like to see this changed but I guess for those used to adding the tax onto the price, maybe they prefer it that way too.
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 40):
Personally, Id like to see this changed but I guess for those used to adding the tax onto the price, maybe they prefer it that way too.

In the businees world of North America it is called suckering people in and only when they get to the cash do they realise what has happened. Remember a few years ago Air Canada had a seat sale to BGI and it looked really great until you got to the nitty gritty of the add ons, then it was just the same as their regular fare. It is a shame we don't follow Europe and other countries, however as much as we say we are not like the Americans we are, we follow their practices in business to the letter. I know that this will cause an uproar among some people but it is the truth
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:15 am

I have to agree with the thread starter. FIrst of all they advertise one-way fares that often can't be bought as one-way. Secondly surcharges are stupid... fuel is part of the product of flying a person from point A to point B. Fuel is not an option so to price it like it is an option is misleading. I can't see it being acceptable that jeans could be sold with a zipper and button surcharge or buying a car with an axle surcharge. Who cares whether or not the costs of zippers and axles have gone up or down... reflect it in the price or the product. Now taxes are another matter... I think those should be kept out of the price because firstly it isn't part of the product that is being sold and secondly hiding the taxes is letting the government off the hook. People need to know how insane the taxes are in order for there to be political pressure to do something about it.
 
808TWA
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RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 42):
Now taxes are another matter... I think those should be kept out of the price because firstly it isn't part of the product that is being sold and secondly hiding the taxes is letting the government off the hook.

In the UK, it is common knowledge that the VAT which applies to most products is included in the off-the-shelf price is 17.5% It's not hidden but it is included. Indeed most stickers show "incl VAT" after the price.

In Canada, surely people would realise that 14% (in Ontario) would be included in a sticker price?

However, I Don't think this would work with airline tickets as there are so many other surcharges to be applied. The example in reply 37 actually surprised me that CA$161.97 of the surcharges were UK fees!
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18859
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:50 am

Example of the fees/charges (other than fuel surcharges) not included in the fare on a sample YVR-GVA round trip fare on NW with connection at SEA and AMS in both directions:

Local currency taxes/fees:

Canadian Air Travelers Security Charge C$17.00
Canadian Goods and Services Tax C$0.90
Vancouver Airport Improvement Fee C$15.00
Swiss Airport Passenger Security & Noise Charge CHF 19.00
The Netherlands Security Service Charge €8.22
The Netherlands Noise Isolation Charge €4.00
The Netherlands Passenger Service Charge €9.12
US Customs Fee $5.00
US Immigration Fee $14.00
USDA APHIS Fee $10.00
US Passenger Facility Charge $4.50
US September 11th Security Fee $5.00

Approx. CA$ equivalent of the various local currency totals above for the 4 countries involved in the routing:

Canada: CA$32.90
USA: 45.00
Netherlands: 32.00
Switzerland: 18.00 (GVA airport tax on return trip)
Total: CA$127.90

Obviously if you didn't connect in the US you would avoid all their fees (highest of all on this routing). Taxes/fees can vary widely depending on the routing and airport and other taxes, PFCs, AIFs etc. involved. If the base fare is similar it's always best to use the routing with the fewest connections, ideally none if direct or nonstop service exists.

Totals can also vary depending on the destination or connecting point in the same country. e.g. If the routing was to ZRH instead of GVA, ZRH's airport tax for the departure on the return trip is tax almost twice GVA's, 37 Swiss francs (CA$35).
 
brilondon
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 30):
It something is not right, you don't just put up with it, you do something about it.
In Canada we put up with "it". Just look at how we always seem to elect the same government over and over and over... ?? We do not do change very well and our electorate are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[Edited 2007-01-12 23:25:56]
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 45):
We do not do change very well and our electorate are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

A-Netters excluded.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
9252fly
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:15 am

As much as I'm inclined to having fuel surcharges added into the fare,I am totally opposed to any taxes being added to the advertised fare. If these taxes were included,how would you keep government from just sliding in another increase or new tax and having the airlines take the blame for the increase in fares. That's the issue airlines have with advertising the total,besides it does appear cheaper not including them and is more likely to hook a consumer rather than showing them the sometimes shocking total right-away.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:24 am

Air New Zealand and Qantas recently got taken to Court in New Zealand and were fined for misleading advertising - the exact same type of fare advertising described by the original poster. All taxes and fees and surcharges and whatnot must now be included in the advertised price.

Makes perfect sense to me. Especially as the exact break down of costs is provided as well.

And if everyonbe's doing it, then it doesn't unfairly disadvantage anyone.

I've been to Canada and been extremely frustrtaed with advertised retail prices not including the tax component. Hugely frustrating as a tourist.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Canada: Advertising And Airline Taxes Gone To Far

Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
there is also a 9/11 security fee (I suppose this helps fund TSA ?? - can any Americans clarify please?)

Yes, the feds collect it to fund the TSA

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
a US 'agriculture fee'. WTF ? I did not know air travel had an agricultural component.

Agricultural inspection is done by the USDA, not by the USCIS. Since the USDA supposedly inspects travellers coming in to the US (pretty non-existant practice on transborder flights), they collect for the service on all international flights.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
USA transportation tax

You actually pay more taxes to the US government on your Canada-US flight than to the Canadian government.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
If you want more reasonable (i.e. lower) taxes, you need to vote on the right (Tory, or Libertarian).

Oh really? Then explain why a Tory government was the one to introduce GST?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
Anyone who ever voted for a socialist party (Liberal or worse NDP) has voted directly for a high tax-and-spend regime that includes indiscriminate taxes on airlines and airports that fall into general government coffers, with no accountability or direct allocation to the air travel infrastructure.

Really? Then how come a massive part of the taxes and fees paid on tickets to and from Canada comes from the "Airport Improvement Fees" that the Canadian government allows the privatized airport authorities not under direct control of the federal government to collect? US PFCs, which are usually either $3.00 or $4.50, pale in comparisson to the fees of up to $20 CAD that privatized airport authorities collect?

If you want to take it a step further, the Canadian version is actually the much more free market oriented system in that it has these airport authorities act autonomously of tax payer funding and collect their revenues from the people who are actually using the service.

Here is something even better. If you want to go on a political rant, do it in non-av.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 23):
As for we Canadians not being the highest taxed population in the western hemisphere that's right. We are second highest. Only Sweden has a higher taxed population.

Who told you that? Linda Leatherdale? BTW, Sweden is not in the Western Hemisphere.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
WS advertises a fare of $69 for a flight from YYC to YVR, total paid after taxes, fees and surcharges is $113.07 which is $44.07 in extra charges, almost double the fare advertised

Again, a major part of that is the $15 AIF charged in "Tory" Calgary. Further, it looks like Westjet is allowed to collect their insurance fees on domestic Canadian flights.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
These fees don't even include other fees which are charged if one does not book on-line. As an example, AC charges an extra $20 if you phone in your booking.

And those fees are completely at the discrection of the airline.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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