ctang
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Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:42 am

Could Air Canada fly direct to Sydney from Toronto using 772LR? Are there any plans for this?
 
connies4ever
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:51 am

Great Circle Mapper says 15551 km, so I think the LR can do this.
Might be tough against a headwind though.

The real question would be is there a good market for this or does it make
more sense to use a 300ER both from LAX & YVR, and get the add-on
traffic from Western Canada, YUL, and the US West/South-West ?
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:54 am

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 241 File size: 4kb
Toronto-Sydney 9663 miles

At 9663 miles, this would be pushing the envelope of the range of the 772LR. Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW. AC on a YVR-SYD run is more realistic.
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Stitch
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:54 am

She should be able to make it, though there might be some payload restrictions, especially on the westbound(?) flight against the winds...
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:54 pm

As a side note, Why when you fly to SYD on AC do they route you through LAX and then codeshare on a UA 744, but return is a 763 direct to YVR. How did that aircraft get there? and why not fly on their own metal out of YVR on an A330/340.
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gigneil
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:56 pm

As I've pointed out on another thread on this topic, such a route would require a 77L will all of its aux tanks, and there's no evidence that AC ordered any and no real demonstration that doing so would provide them any value.

One of their 77Ws or 77Ls can fly YVR-SYD nonstop just fine.

NS
 
chrisa330
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 4):
As a side note, Why when you fly to SYD on AC do they route you through LAX and then codeshare on a UA 744, but return is a 763 direct to YVR. How did that aircraft get there? and why not fly on their own metal out of YVR on an A330/340.

AC operates a YVR-HNL-SYD return daily with a B763. Not sure what you're talking about.

They also operate an A340 in high season.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW

No, the 772ER/773ER would not be effective on the SYD-DFW route. The 772LR is the most suitable aircraft for this route (until the 787 comes along). The 772LR could operate this with a very good payload. The 772LR is capable of flying 8865nm http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=106 although in most aircraft configs this would be reduced to about 8000nm with decent payload and about 7000nm with full payload. SYD-DFW is 7454nm. QF just didn't want to add another type to the fleet unless it would be capable of flying SYD-LHR non-stop. Expect to see QF use 789 (or a LR version of it) to fly SYD-DFW in about 5 years time.
In fact if the optional 3 aft tanks are fitted, the aircraft can fly with a full pax load 9420nm which would make SYD-YYZ possible.
I don't think however that AC would do such a flight... far more likely a direct flight from YVR or YYC as these 2 airports carry the bulk of Canadian tourists bound for Australia and have excellent connections on to the Middle and East of Canada.
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[Edited 2007-01-11 05:10:53]
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 6):
AC operates a YVR-HNL-SYD return daily with a B763. Not sure what you're talking about.

They also operate an A340 in high season.

I was doing pricing for a exchange application, so I went to the AC website to look for fares. I looked at YYZ-SYD. The route it gave me was an AC airbus to LAX then transfer over to a UA 744, and the return was a 763. I was asking first off where the 763 came from which you answered. My second question was why did the website not offer the YVR-HNL-SYD routing as another option, or try to get me to do that way first.

BTW it's cheaper to go though LHR on BA, by about 100 or so CAD. (at least it was when I checked)
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Zkpilot
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 8):
I was doing pricing for a exchange application, so I went to the AC website to look for fares. I looked at YYZ-SYD. The route it gave me was an AC airbus to LAX then transfer over to a UA 744, and the return was a 763. I was asking first off where the 763 came from which you answered. My second question was why did the website not offer the YVR-HNL-SYD routing as another option, or try to get me to do that way first.

BTW it's cheaper to go though LHR on BA, by about 100 or so CAD. (at least it was when I checked)

Did you look at AS to LAX and then QF to SYD?
or either AC or AS to LAX then NZ to SYD via AKL? Lots of legroom on those NZ 744s  Smile and the QF service is pretty good too  Smile
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:22 pm

I dont think AS flys to YYZ  Smile

If I actually go, I'm sure I'll do that. I was just getting a price to put on the form, and thought it was odd.

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ordryan28
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
She should be able to make it, though there might be some payload restrictions, especially on the westbound(?) flight against the winds...

Just what I was thinking. I believe it's in the Worldliner's range, just not a comfortable range. On that specific route, perhaps a stop in HNL would be acceptable?
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:47 pm

What kind of load restrictions would be reasonable for that kind of route?
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zeke
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 1):
Great Circle Mapper says 15551 km, so I think the LR can do this.

YYZ-SYD 8505 nm (CYYZ->DCT->LESUB->J16->YXU->J586->CRL->J554->GIJ->J146->JOT->J26
->IRK->J96->SLN->J18->BOLIC->J102->FORPE->J18->GBN->J2->MZB->C1156
->MALIT->C1177->FICKY->B577->TUT->B450->LHI->UH258->SHARK->DCT ->YSSY)

SYD-YYZ 8561 nm (YSSY->DCT->WLM->W149->LHI->B450->TUT->B577->FICKY->C1177
->MALIT->C1156->MZB->J18->SLN->J96->IRK->J26->JOT->J35->OBK->J547
->FNT->J94->ECK->J553->BORDN->DCT->CYYZ)

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
SYD-DFW is 7454nm

SYD-DFW 7632 nm (YSSY->DCT->WLM->W149->LHI->B450->TUT->B577->FICKY->C1177
->MALIT->C1156->MZB->J18->GBN->J50->SSO->J4->EWM->J66->ABI->DCT ->KDFW)

DFW-SYD 7613 nm
(KDFW->DCT->ABI->J66->EWM->J4->SSO->J50->GBN->J18->JUDTH->J2
->MZB->C1156->MALIT->C1177->FICKY->B577->TUT->B450->LHI->UH258
->SHARK->DCT->YSSY)
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Rj111
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:29 pm

It could probably make it but i'm sure they'd rather take advantage of the 773ER cargo capacity than have a largely freightless 772LR flight. Similar to what SA do JNB-US A346 flights.

Will AC be permitted to fly people SYD-LAX if they aren't connecting onto aonther AC flight in LAX?
 
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AA777223
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW.

How on earth is it possible that the 772LR can't do SYD to DFW at 7454 nm? I know the range of the 772ER is 7700 nm and the LR to over 9000nm. Is it the ETOPS regulations that keep it from flying the route directly? I just can't imagine that LR can't make the route when it is in the range of the ER! What gives?
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
Will AC be permitted to fly people SYD-LAX if they aren't connecting onto another AC flight in LAX?

I'm pretty sure, based on press releases and discussion amongst fellow Star Alliance passengers that AC has Fifth Freedom rights to fly pax directly between LAX and SYD as well as LAX and YVR and/or YYZ (can't remember which city the flight originates and terminates in Canada).
 
ANother
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
can't remember which city the flight originates and terminates in Canada

Canadian airlines have authority from 'any point in Canada'. However the intermediate points in the USA are SFO, HNL and 'another point to be agreed'. So LAX rights are not a given - Australia has to agree.

But I note that GC map posted above shows the track passing almost directly over NAN. To avoid US customs, immigration and security hassles for transit passengers AC could operate via Fiji.
 
accargo
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:23 am

It really doesn't matter if technically the acft can fly the route, AC won't fly YYZ-SYD non-stop. There is a reason AC announced YYZ-LAX-SYD, it's all about profitiblity, it just isn't there on a non-stop YYZ-SYD.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:11 am

Don't see much of a market anyway for a direct YYZ-SYD flight. And yes the 772LR would be practically on fumes by the time it crossed the Great Barrier reef. The current YVR-SYD and proposed YYZ-LAX-SYD makes much more sense.

I have flown YYZ-YQY in just over 2 hours!!! Yes you can fly to Sydney, NS non-stop from YYZ.

[Edited 2007-01-11 18:18:57]
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Stitch
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 17):
Canadian airlines have authority from 'any point in Canada'. However the intermediate points in the USA are SFO, HNL and 'another point to be agreed'. So LAX rights are not a given - Australia has to agree.

Thank you.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
I don't think however that AC would do such a flight... far more likely a direct flight from YVR or YYC as these 2 airports carry the bulk of Canadian tourists bound for Australia and have excellent connections on to the Middle and East of Canada.

The problem with Canada-Australia is that it is largely a low yield tourist and visit friends and relatives market. There's very little high-yield business traffic. It's also very seasonal; not many Australians want to visit Canada in the middle of the Canadian winter and vice versa for Canadians who prefer other destinations during the Canadian summer. And it's a much smaller market than the US.

QF has never been able to make an ongoing success of their service to Canada. They've come and gone several times, and tried different routings, mostly the less risky option as an extension from SFO, but for several years in the 1980's as a stand-alone route SYD-HNL-YVR about twice a week with 747s. And for a few years in the late 1960's-early '70s, they even tried a SYD-PPT-YVR route with 707s with no stops in the US (most people have long forgotten that YVR once had nonstop service to PPT). For a brief brief period in the 1990s QFalso served YYZ. The current off-and-on seasonal extension from SFO, ironically the same rout used when they commenced service to YVR in the mid 1950's, is a pretty weak effort. (As a matter of trivia, QF does hold the distinction of being the first scheduled jet operator at YVR, with their early 707-138s in 1959, also an extension from SFO once a week or it may have only been every two weeks then.)

There's been continuous Canadian carrier service Canada-Australia since Canadian Pacific commenced YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD service in 1949, their first interenational route (YVR-TYO-HKG began a few months later). The NAN stop was dropped when CP moved up from DC-8s to DC-10-30s about 1980. And during CP Air's and successor Canadian Airlines' final years of service prior to the merger with AC, they were operating YYZ-HNL nonstop, connecting with the YVR-HNL-SYD service at HNL. AC dropped the YYZ-HNL nonstops after they took over.

For the almost 60 years of continuous Canada-Australia (and periodically, also New Zealand) direct service, I doubt it's ever been more than marginally profitable for the reasons mentioned above. That's why AC wants YYZ-LAX-SYD, to benefit from the much higher proportion of high-yield business traffic to/from the US. It's also less seasonal than Canada. I doubt nonstop YVR-SYD is very high on AC's priority list for their new 777s. They'll use those largely on the profitable North Pacific routes to Asia initially.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
There's been continuous Canadian carrier service Canada-Australia since Canadian Pacific commenced YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD service in 1949,

This is simpley incorrect! YVR-SFO-HNL-Canton Is-NAN-SYD/AKL services were started in 1949 by BCPA an airline jointly owned by Oz, NZ, Canada & UK. CP & QF service started in 1952/3 when BCPA was broken up.

CP own plane service to Oz/NZ stopped in the late1980s/early1990s when QFs to YVR also stopped.(I don't have exact dates). From then on CP flew YVR-HNL & YYZ-HNL, QF flew SYD-HNL and NZ flew AKL-HNL. Schedules were coordinated and all four aircraft were on the ground together at HNL, exchanged pax then departed for home.

This continued until NZ joined *Alliance and pulled out. CP then sent one aircraft on from HNL to AKL 2 or 3 times a week. The arrangement with QF continued until the AC take over when it was terminated and AC commenced own plane service to SYD.

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gigneil
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 15):
How on earth is it possible that the 772LR can't do SYD to DFW at 7454 nm? I know the range of the 772ER is 7700 nm and the LR to over 9000nm. I

Its all about effective payload. The 777-200LR can only fly 9000nm with tanks fitted. Its standard range is 8400ish nm.

Fitting tanks is not really good for payload.

NS
 
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
Its standard range is 8400ish nm.

Fitting tanks is not really good for payload.

...Still far greater than 7454 nm...
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gigneil
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:01 pm

It would fly SYD-DFW grrreat.

The question is DFW-SYD, and whether it can against those winds.

NS
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 22):
This is simpley incorrect! YVR-SFO-HNL-Canton Is-NAN-SYD/AKL services were started in 1949 by BCPA an airline jointly owned by Oz, NZ, Canada & UK. CP & QF service started in 1952/3 when BCPA was broken up.

CP own plane service to Oz/NZ stopped in the late1980s/early1990s when QFs to YVR also stopped.(I don't have exact dates). From then on CP flew YVR-HNL & YYZ-HNL, QF flew SYD-HNL and NZ flew AKL-HNL. Schedules were coordinated and all four aircraft were on the ground together at HNL, exchanged pax then departed for home.

This continued until NZ joined *Alliance and pulled out. CP then sent one aircraft on from HNL to AKL 2 or 3 times a week. The arrangement with QF continued until the AC take over when it was terminated and AC commenced own plane service to SYD.

Thanks for the clarification re the interruption of CP service south of HNL between April 1991 and 2000, replaced during that period by the joint codeshare operation you describe, with QF operating HNL-SYD and CP the YVR-HNL and YYZ-HNL sectors. I had forgotten about that.

However you are not correct re the commencement of CP service YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD (with fuel stops at SFO and Canton Island). The inaugural flight was July 10, 1949. The Australian government was reluctant to grant the required operating permit and only did so a couple of weeks before the service began. There is an entire chapter on this in a 1972 biography of CP's president from 1942 until 1965, including several photos taken during the inaugural flight.

Here's one photo from another source taken in SYD July 15, 1949 prior to departure of the inaugural return trip:

http://www.acfamily.net/photopost/data/504/9cpa-canadair-four-aussie.jpg


Caption reads: CPA Canadair Four CF-CPI "Empress of Sydney" at Mascot Airport, July 15, 1949 returning leg of its inaugural Australian flight.

- CPAL photo - from Canadian Pacific Air Lines: Its History and Aircraft by D.M. Bain.

Also see the first line of the last paragraph on this page:
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...ex.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1SEC816443

A couple of 1949 Canadian government communications from the period soon after CP's service began, may also be of interest:
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/hist/dcer/details-en.asp?intRefid=9321
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/hist/dcer/details-en.asp?intRefid=9322

You are also not quite correct re British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines. Canada had no involvement in BCPA. It was jointly owned by the governments of Australia (50%), New Zealand (30%) and the UK (20%). They began service in 1946, 3 years before CP began YVR-SYD service, and were liquidated in 1954. QF took over their transpacific services. (Source Wikipedia which I would prefer not to use but couldn't find much else on BCPA's history.)

By the way, CP commenced service to AKL in 1952 as far as I can tell.

Thanks again for your update on more recent history of those routes.

[Edited 2007-01-13 10:43:21]
 
Gemuser
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
You are also not quite correct re British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines. Canada had no involvement in BCPA

If this is correct, then I stand corrected! I will check with the author and editor of the BCPA corporate history, but relying on memory alone(admittedly becoming more dangrous as time goes on) I thought the share holdings were something like Oz 40%, Canada 30%, NZ 20%, UK 10%. Maybe that was an early proposal.

I guess we will have to call this one a draw!  Smile

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Viscount724
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 27):
If this is correct, then I stand corrected! I will check with the author and editor of the BCPA corporate history, but relying on memory alone(admittedly becoming more dangrous as time goes on) I thought the share holdings were something like Oz 40%, Canada 30%, NZ 20%, UK 10%. Maybe that was an early proposal.

I guess we will have to call this one a draw!

Thanks. As mentioned, I don't like to trust Wikipedia but couldn't find any other source re BCPA's ownership. Look forward to any correction if you can uncover anything more official on their history.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:37 am

The current Qantas fact file on their web site (December 2006) states that the extension to YVR at the moment is the first step to restoring daily services to Canada from Australia. I also think the plan is to get SFO daily all the time as well.
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
..not many Australians want to visit Canada in the middle of the Canadian winter...

Not true actually. There is a relatively large market of Aussies who come to ski Canada in our winter.
 
wolfy
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:03 pm

Internal Source ...
A345 will be used on YVR-SYD non-stop once YYZ-HKG gets B772LR.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Multimark (Reply 30):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
..not many Australians want to visit Canada in the middle of the Canadian winter...

Not true actually. There is a relatively large market of Aussies who come to ski Canada in our winter.

But still low yield traffic. The relative lack of business traffic between Canada and Australia has always been a problem on that route.
 
planetime
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RE: Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 18):
There is a reason AC announced YYZ-LAX-SYD, it's all about profitiblity, it just isn't there on a non-stop YYZ-SYD.

Correct! There is more market when you get the pax coming in from US/Canada thru their LAX feed... and more profitablity.

SFO,JFK,are the only other cities getting direct OZ flights now.. the market just to YYZ is not as big as SFO/JFK.... so unlikely needed really.