LHStarAlliance
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FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:10 am

Hello,

I´ve a question: will we ever see FRA back as the Second Airport in Europe?

I think until 2003 (2004?) FRA had more passengers than CDG but as they don´t built the 4 landing runway I presume that FRA will stay at this level.

This year FRA has just grown 1 % to compare Air Traffic world wide 5 %

Delays + 4 %

All this due that there are no more slots!
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incitatus
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:23 am

Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.
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HUYguy
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.

What do you have a crystal ball or something?
 
airbazar
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting HUYguy (Reply 2):
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.

What do you have a crystal ball or something?

I think he has a point. It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport. CDG also has more room to grow than LHR so it's not that far fetched to think that CDG could become #1 at some point.
 
DavidT
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport.

Has Orly recently disappeared?  Smile
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
CDG will be first,

Why not FRA 1st all the time FRA was bigger than CDG until the Capacity couldn´t grwo more at FRA they´ld have more passanger if this would not have happened...
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YULMRS
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
I think he has a point. It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport. CDG also has more room to grow than LHR so it's not that far fetched to think that CDG could become #1 at some point.

You forgot Orly, Hann and Le Bourget  Wink

But, you're right on the main point i think, there's almost no more possible expansion in LHR, while CDG can still expand. All the parisian traffic growth will go to CDG because ORY is locked at 250 000 flights a year.

I have an interesting link about ADP investment in CDG :

Aerocontact, sorry, french only

2 main figures from this story, ADP will invest 2.34 billion euros in CDG and capacity will grow of 19.4 million PAX a year, i don't think this can be done in LHR.
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airbazar
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 6):
You forgot Orly, Hann and Le Bourget

I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.
 
YULMRS
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.

You're right, I was only joking.

But there's still some long haul at ORY (RUN, EWR, FDF, PTP ...)
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foxxray
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:52 am

LHR handled 66 424 767 pax on 2000 and approximately 68 000 000 on 2005 so just a little bit more than 1.5 million of pax in six years whereas CDG handled 48 246 137 pax on 2000 and 56 026 177 on 2005 so approximately 7.8 million of pax in six years !

I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !
 
Baexecutive
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 9):
I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !

I think your missing 1 crucial point, Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 9):
I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !

Maybe but just because France has no more important Airports in all country
as Germany with MUC DUS HAM or the UK with MAN and LHR LGW.
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foxxray
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:04 am

Yes the T5 will be great for LHR but how many pax it will be able to handle ?

CDG will get its new S3 this year with 8.5 millions of pax per year and they plan to grow the CDG capacity of 19.4 millions by 2012 !
 
IBERIA747
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 10):
Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.

And where are airlines going to obtain more slots from?.

In LHR's case, they can build as many terminals as they want, but if the slots are not increased then no traffic growth is possible, and this is what's happening at LHR as long as they remain with just 2 runways.

Just look at aircraft movements...LHR is not Europe's Nº1 in that area.

Now if a 3rd runway could be built at LHR then it would allow traffic to increase much more than it has done in the last few years.

[Edited 2007-01-12 19:14:55]
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foxxray
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 11):
Maybe but just because France has no more important Airports in all country
as Germany with MUC DUS HAM or the UK with MAN and LHR LGW

It can be because of it, or because of that,... the fact is that CDG will be the biggest airport in Europe in medium term !
ORY hasn't a lot of long haul flights (to RUN, PTP, FDF, EWR, YUL,...) but it is still an important airport (25 millions of pax and 250000 movements per year)

FRA, MUC and DUS ok, these are important !

but HAM is as big NCE !
 
FlySSC
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.

Even with a limited long-haul destinations, ORLY was ranked the 10th European Airport with 24 053 215 PAX in 2004, behind FCO, MUC or BCN, but before MAN (21.544M), CPH (18.965M), ZRH (17.28M), LIS, ATH, IST or VIE.

CDG+ORY = more than 75 Million PAX, behind LHR+LGW but well ahead FRA.
 
MarkATL
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
Frankfurt only have one airport.

Everyone except the folks at Ryan Air agree with you. Big grin
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airbazar
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 10):
I think your missing 1 crucial point, Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.

That may alleviate the lack of gate space or reduce connection times for passengers but it will do little or nothing to increase the number of slots. You'll still only have 2 runways and there are only so many landings and takeoffs per hour, that LHR can support. From what I've seen, FRA stands a better chance of building an additional runway than LHR but that's not saying much  Smile
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:15 am

FRA has a good chance to catch up again when runway #4 becomes operational. That will give an increase in movements by at least 160.000 p.a. and with T3 passenger capacity will be well over 80 Million.

The questions will be -can LHR add a third runway and can CDG continue to grow or will a new Paris airport be built.

Germany is polycentric, which actually is a big advantage over countries having a very large single economic centre like the UK and France. And - going from FRA to CGN does not take more time than going from CDG to ORY or LHR to LGW.

Add the 3,7 ;illion in HHN and the ca. 10 Million in CGN, that adds up to 66 Million as well. DUS has another 16.5 Million, hence, in an area about the size of Metro London (or Greater LAX) 4 airports handle almost 83 Million passengers annually.
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flyorski
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:21 am

FRA may also see increased capacity, from larger aircraft replacing smaller ones.... LH has larger 747-8s and 380s coming..........
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 14):
FRA, MUC and DUS ok, these are important !

Well both are in the European Top 10 and DUS is growing more and more

the new runway will allow to grow capacity 50 % so FRA will be the biggest also a new terminal (T3) will be built to finish 2013

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
FRA has a good chance to catch up again when runway #4 becomes operational. That will give an increase in movements by at least 160.000 p.a. and with T3 passenger capacity will be well over 80 Million.

That´s it!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Add the 3,7 ;illion in HHN and the ca. 10 Million in CGN, that adds up to 66 Million as well. DUS has another 16.5 Million, hence, in an area about the size of Metro London (or Greater LAX) 4 airports handle almost 83 Million passengers annually.

Never calculated this , it´s really much ! Well the Rhein-Ruhr gebiet is the most important Industrial zone in Europe so it´s logic ...
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Viscount724
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:20 am

Nobody has mentioned AMS. I think it's the only major airport in Europe with 5 runways (actually 6 if you count a short one mainly used for general aviation). Plenty of room for growth.

Without a 3rd runway (I won't hold my breath for that), the only way LHR can continue growing in passenger traffic is by using larger aircraft, thus it's likely to be one of the major A380 destinations. LHR has virtually no regional jet or turboprop traffic unlike most of the other major European hubs. That also limits the markets that can be served from/to LHR to major cities that can support the mainline jets...737s, A320s and up, and even those are rather small to make the best use of the limited LHR slots.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
the only way LHR can continue growing in passenger traffic is by using larger aircraft, thus it's likely to be one of the major A380 destinations.

Well Airbus designed it for this Airports with no more capacity grow in near future
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stylo777
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:25 am

you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 23):
you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only.

Sure but that will increase capacity by 50%...
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 24):
Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 23):
you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only.

Sure but that will increase capacity by 50%...

+ new terminal up to 85 mill .
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blast
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Nobody has mentioned AMS. I think it's the only major airport in Europe with 5 runways (actually 6 if you count a short one mainly used for general aviation). Plenty of room for growth.

AMS its growth is restricted by political decisions which are the result of environmental pressure and noise level limits.
In addition, the newest runway, the Polderbaan, only handles traffic coming in from the north and departing to the north; directly south of that runway is the town of Hoofddorp. I believe similar restrictions apply to some of the other runways.
So potentially and technically AMS can still grow, in reality however, growth remains largely a political issue.
 
Joost
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:19 pm

I agree on Blast that AMS is mainly capped by regulations. Currently, the cap is at 450.000 flights. Currently, there seems to be political agreement to grow up to 550.000.

Many of the runways can only be used in one direction. Next to that, the variety of winds requires a lot of landing possibilities. Currently, the airport is working actively in optimizing it's approaches, etc, in order to inrease usage. The development of a secondary airport is in the process: the runway at LEY will be extended to 2200m in order to handle low-cost and vacation traffic. However, this airport will also be capped (in the current draft agreements) to 60 daily flights.

I do think people forget about MAD. In 2005, it already wasn't far behind AMS. In 2006, they added T4 and 2 extra runways, allowing up to 120 movements an hour. They have attracted FR and U2 to form a base, IB is focussing on MAD by letting BCN to Clickair, Vueling is growing fast; I expect MAD to takeover the no. 4 in Europe position from AMS somewhere around 2009, 2010.
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 23):
you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only

That is already taken into consideration. The 650K can easily be done even if the landing runway is time restricted between 6 am and 9 pm. What FRA needs is landing capacity. Officially, it will increase the hourly capacity to 120 from 82 at the moment. That is 208.050 per year based on 15 hours daily. Means, there is room left for growth.

Simultaneous landings can take place on the new NW and in te existing south runway with take offs on the 18 and the existing north runway.
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paneuropean
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Blast (Reply 26):
AMS its growth is restricted by political decisions which are the result of environmental pressure and noise level limits.
In addition, the newest runway, the Polderbaan, only handles traffic coming in from the north and departing to the north; directly south of that runway is the town of Hoofddorp. I believe similar restrictions apply to some of the other runways.
So potentially and technically AMS can still grow, in reality however, growth remains largely a political issue.

True, besides the growth of AMS is very dependent on transfer traffic. Hopefully this success of Schiphol isn't it's weakest link, as O and D traffic at AMS is relatively poor.
The growth of AMS is also due to the AFKL success at the moment, which is directed at Paris.

The future Dutch government also has a lot to do with Schiphol's future. This is my biggest fear as they are non- liberal and have always been against AMS growing.

Nonetheless, the airport has great potential for future growth, considering it's own infrastructure. Still this has lots to do with the Netherlands' own infrastructure as I, living between Amsterdam and Dusseldorf, am faster in DUS is than in AMS, due to the Dutch highly congested highways.

I cannot predict AMS's position in a few years, but if the developments during recent years will continue, MAD and AMS and even FRA will probably remain as equal sized airports, far behind CDG and LHR.
 
vv701
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
And where are airlines going to obtain more slots from?.

Are slots the only criteria? If so this would be impossible:

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
Just look at aircraft movements...LHR is not Europe's Nº1 in that area.

Take the absurd example of LHR being slot restricted to 480,000 slots a year but each slot being operated by an A380 or equivalent with 500 passengers aboard. That would be 240 million passengers or 253 per cent growth on the current figure. Yes. Totally absurd. But it is illustrative as to why BAA are planning the new, very large Heathrow East complex once T5 is open and has become, with T3, Heathrow West.
 
lijnden
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:56 am

FRA and AMS are the two airports with most growth possibility but with the least political will. Passengers in transit prefer these airports over CDG and LHR but with many airliners from the Middle East, Russia and India now flying straight to North America growth is about to slow down. We even see B757's crossing the Atlantic now. (In AMS we used to see Alia, Tarom, Finnair, Kuwait, El Al and other airlines to/from North America.)
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:06 am

Germany as the first industrial nation in Europe will never have a Airport of the size of MAD or AMS , if it is not FRA it will be MUC

LH CEO Mayrhuber said that MUC will overtake FRA as biggest German Airport ,
just the politics have to realize this.

LHR is such a big Airport because of the english speaking , good connections , and former colonial world power also it´s the 3 nation in europe .

CDG is the airport of the 2 nation in europe and also was a colonial power.

but FRA
Is so important because of the connections Rhein Ruhr gebiet and Germany being the 1st industrial nation . As you all know Germany never was a big Colonial Might.
Also the geographic position of Germany is a + point .

So FRA has the potential to be the first or the second in europe but it depends of the Political will.
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Alitalia744
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 10):
I think your missing 1 crucial point, Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.

Tell that to Atlanta.
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paneuropean
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 32):
Germany as the first industrial nation in Europe will never have a Airport of the size of MAD or AMS , if it is not FRA it will be MUC

So your point is that the size of Frankfurt has everything to do with the countries industrial volume? This is quite a black and white vision. Moreover this is a result of geological location and the position of the main carrier, along with the countries volume of the economy and.

Atlanta(Georgia) sure isn't he most booming town in America, but it sure has the busiest airport.

MAD and AMS handle just 6 mln. passengers less than FRA. They have come closer every year.
According to your prediction passenger flying in and through Germany, will be spread out more over MUC and FRA.instead of growing at one.
 
pelican
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 34):
Moreover this is a result of geological location and the position of the main carrier, along with the countries volume of the economy

And the location in central-western Europe isn't bad at all. The main carrier is LH... The volume of the German Economy is by far the biggest in Europe. Therefore what is your point?

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 34):
will be spread out more over MUC and FRA.instead of growing at one.

There you have a valid point. This will be probably the main reason that limits FRA . But then it's quite possible that MUC will overtake FRA.

pelican
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 34):
Moreover this is a result of geological location and the position of the main carrier, along with the countries volume of the economy and.

As a matter of fact, FRA is idelly located in Europe. It is basically the geopgraphical center of Europe, after Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU Jan 1, the geographical center of the EU has shifted from a couple of miles west of FRA to about 50 km east of FRA. Frankfurt always had that place even in the medieval times when it was a cross road

Tell me a better location fora hub airport in Europe. MUC does not fare bad in that criteria either and LH is damn lucky it can grow there while slots are restricted in FRA. If politics doesnot get their act together, the ranking will shift and MUC will be the primary hub and FRA the secondary. The message by LH is clearyl out. But LH has got the taste to operate 2 hubs and they will keep that strategy and develope it.
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paneuropean
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 35):
And the location in central-western Europe isn't bad at all. The main carrier is LH... The volume of the German Economy is by far the biggest in Europe. Therefore what is your point?

That it isn't just a matter of your countries economical volume. There are more aspects, look at the exceptions like SIN, DXB, HKK, AMS. These airports have good bilateral treaties with many countries and are located at strategic "historical" parts of the world.

For sure FRA is in good hands as LH is the home carrier and the German economy is good. Besides a new Terminal and runway are being built.

However, don't underestimate the competition of some other eurohubs. Especially now alliances are becoming more important and flight- expansion will be done at these hubs.

AMS can become more important because of AF/KL and MAD is booming, thanks to it's historical ties with S. America and the Terminal expansion just recently
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 35):
And the location in central-western Europe isn't bad at all. The main carrier is LH... The volume of the German Economy is by far the biggest in Europe. Therefore what is your point?

That´s it . FRA and CDG have at least the same potential to be the biggest in future

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
Tell me a better location fora hub airport in Europe. MUC does not fare bad in that criteria either and LH is damn lucky it can grow there while slots are restricted in FRA. If politics doesnot get their act together, the ranking will shift and MUC will be the primary hub and FRA the secondary. The message by LH is clearyl out. But LH has got the taste to operate 2 hubs and they will keep that strategy and develope it.

Well but at least the runway is coming nearer and nearer , some weeks ago Fraport just bought ticona so the biggest problem is now away now just these
f. people of walldorf and so on who say that they can´t sleep .
Hope they shut up , because the Airport is very very important for the wealth of they own .

How is the expansion doing in MUC ?

Quoting Pelican (Reply 35):
The volume of the German Economy is by far the biggest in Europe

This is for me the most important point , why should CDG have more passangers
if people there have less money than Germans and there is less Industry .


All Points speak for FRA : Geographic, Economic and LH base (biggest international Airline of europe if we count Af and KL as one each)

Just politicians have to change mind !
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 37):
That it isn't just a matter of your countries economical volume.

But it´s one of the most important points .

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 37):
AMS can become more important because of AF/KL and MAD is booming, thanks to it's historical ties with S. America and the Terminal expansion just recently

And FRA is the most important *A hub and LH/LX
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pelican
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 37):

That it isn't just a matter of your countries economical volume.

I've never said that. That's the reason why I've mentioned other points from your reply 34.

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 37):
However, don't underestimate the competition of some other eurohubs.

Sure it's just that FRA has the same chance as other European hubs.

pelican
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 40):
Sure it's just that FRA has the same chance as other European hubs

And sure more than AMS or MAD .
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airbazar
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 34):
MAD and AMS handle just 6 mln. passengers less than FRA. They have come closer every year.

I wonder how much of it is due to LCC's which you see very little of at FRA.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
Tell me a better location fora hub airport in Europe.

That depends of where you're going and where you're coming from. But Europe is so small and distances traveled can be so long that a slight geographic shift of a few hundred miles means absolutely nothing. I'll use the same example of ATL, which is the largest hub in the World but it's in an absolutely horrible location, geographicaly speaking. SIN is another example, a great hub that managed to overcome its bad geographic location other than for flights to/from Australia. These are just 2 examples of how geography have little to do with it.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42):
I wonder how much of it is due to LCC's which you see very little of at FRA.

Just AB with 3 or 4 routes

MAD will be a Easy Jet hub and there are clickair vueling etc

also AMS is a big LCC airport
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PanHAM
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 38):
Well but at least the runway is coming nearer and nearer , some weeks ago Fraport just bought ticona so the biggest problem is now away now just the

They bought the land on which the Ticona plant is located and pay for the new plant. Meaning, they have removed a stepping stone which would have at leasz added another 5 years in the courts. Still, I only believethat the new runway is build when it opens and no bans to use it is raised by the courts, DUS had a second runway fpor years and was not allowed to use it.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42):
That depends of where you're going and where you're coming from. But Europe is so small and distances traveled can be so long that a slight geographic shift of a few hundred miles means absolutely nothing. I'll use the same example of ATL, which is the largest hub in the World but it's in an absolutely horrible location, geographicaly speaking. SIN is another example, a great hub that managed to overcome its bad geographic location other than for flights to/from Australia. These are just 2 examples of how geography have little to do with it.

Geigraphy uis half the rent and demography the other half. Europe may be smaller than the US but we have almost 500 Million people in the area of which FRA is right smack in the middle. But it is not only Europe, FRA is an intercontinental hub and by far better located than LHR or CDG and ANS. MAD may have the best terminals and runway capacity right now but a lousy location except for South America. So speaking, MAD is the European ATL:
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
MAD may have the best terminals and runway capacity right now but a lousy location except for South America.

And not so good connections.
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foxxray
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 38):

That´s it . FRA and CDG have at least the same potential to be the biggest in future

Yes maybe FRA and CDG have the same potential but percentages speak by themselves... in 2003 CDG was just behind FRA while this year CDG should be something like 4 millions ahead from FRA ! that means that CDG had 17 % change in 3 years whereas FRA had "only" 10 % change for this last 3 years !

FRA will have a new terminal, a new runway ok, but with this new terminal, do you think that FRA capacity will grow of 19.4 millions like CDG ?

And your speach was good but you missed one important point, Germany has 20 millions more inhabitants than UK or France !!!
 
vv701
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
As a matter of fact, FRA is idelly located in Europe. It is basically the geopgraphical center of Europe

If you are travelling from the east to Europe and your destination is somewhere in the eastern half of the EU do you want to fly to the centre and then back on your tracks? I think not. Likewise if you are flying from the west to a destination in the western part of the EU.

Logically the ideally located European airports are MAD (for those travelling from South America), SNN (for those travelling from North America), ATH for those travelling from the Middle East and Australasia), HEL or ATH for those travelling from the Far East and FCO for those travelling from Africa. However before they can exploit their geographic location these airports need to provide onward connections to all other European destinations of any importance. Hence (primarily for historical reasons) LHR has usurped SNN's natural catchment) but MAD does largely exploit the South American market (that could have been usurped by LIS, BCN or even TLS).
 
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 46):
ehind FRA while this year CDG should be something like 4 millions ahead from FRA

CDG:53,8 Mio. (2005)

FRA:52,8 Mio.(2005)

Thats 1 mill.

When the new runway is finished they´ll overtake CDG not the same year but the next .
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foxxray
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RE: FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 48):


CDG:53,8 Mio. (2005)

FRA:52,8 Mio.(2005)

Thats 1 mill.


2006 estimation is 56.1 millions for CDG and 52.5 for FRA !

and during 2005 CDG was at 53.8 and FRA at 52.2 (not 52.8)...