longhaul67
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Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:54 pm

Browsing through Iberia and TAP’s schedules I have found that it is impossible to make same day connections from CPH, OSL, ARN (and possibly also other destinations) to GIG and GRU.
This surprises me given the fact that these are premium carriers with their own network, and it seems to me they are not utilizing it fully. They both have daily direct flights to both destinations, making them attractive in this market. Other European carriers (AF, BA, LH, LX) flying into these destinations all have overnight flights allowing for feed traffic to their main hubs.

Question: Does anybody with some inside info know if Iberia/TAP are considering making any changes to their departure banks to these destinations in the near future?

I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know.


Rgds
LongHaul67
 
airbazar
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:34 pm

It must have to do with the need to maintain a high level of utilization from their aircraft and the fact that there is enough O&D traffic to support the daylight flight. If you think about it, it's a standard Atlantic crossing schedule. Westbound during the day and Eastbound overnight. It only requires 1 aircraft per destination. If they were to fly it overnight in both directions they would need 2 aircraft per destination and the aircraft would have to sit idle all day, in Brazil.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know

TP also operates OPO-GRU and OPO-GIG, perhaps flying via OPO would allow for immediate connection.

Rgs,
 
Aisak
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:55 pm

As of IB and GRU:

IB 6819 MAD 01.25 GRU 09.15
IB 6821 MAD 12.10 GRU 20.00

IB 6826 GRU 17.35 MAD 06.30+1
IB 6820 GRU 21.25 MAD 10.20+1

And regarding GIG:

IB 6801 MAD 12.05 GIG 19.40
IB 6800 GIG 21.05 MAD 09.50+1

GRU doesn't seem to have connecting trouble. Maybe GIG, but bear in mind that MAD is not a well-suited hub for Scandinavia and IB does not serve well the region.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:08 am

Coming back it works...
27 Mar GIG 17:25 LIS 06:40 +1 Economy TP 182
28 Mar LIS 09:20 OSL 14:10 Economy TP 506

But Lisbon night life is good, so you won't go bored during your outbound layover!
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
longhaul67
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
If they were to fly it overnight in both directions they would need 2 aircraft per destination and the aircraft would have to sit idle all day, in Brazil.

Yeah, you seem to be right. Iberia/TAP's A343 sits at GIG for only a couple of hours, while the overnight carriers sit for 8-10 hrs since they use 2 aircraft.
Wonder if they are expecting to receive additional aircraft in the near future? TAP is the European market leader to Brazil, and at the moment they are missing out on market share. Right now AF is capitalizing on this with the introduction of their second daily to GIG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
TP also operates OPO-GRU and OPO-GIG, perhaps flying via OPO would allow for immediate connection.

Thanks for the tip, but I already checked and its a no-go.
 
longhaul67
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Aisak (Reply 3):
As of IB and GRU:

IB 6819 MAD 01.25 GRU 09.15

Yup, thats a go! missed out on that one.
Both carriers have excellent connections coming back from both GIG and GRU.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 4):
But Lisbon night life is good, so you won't go bored during your outbound layover!

Sure is, guess it works well for the leisure traveller, but not so good for Y class travellers!
 
airbazar
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:10 am

Well, you could mix and match. If there ever was an advantage for an Aliance this must be one. Outbound on LH/LX and inbound on TP. Or outbound on BA and inbound on IB.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Browsing through Iberia and TAP’s schedules I have found that it is impossible to make same day connections from CPH, OSL, ARN (and possibly also other destinations) to GIG and GRU.

Unfortunatelly not for TP and IB to GIG. IB keep the overnight flight MAD-GRU.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Other European carriers (AF, BA, LH, LX) flying into these destinations all have overnight flights allowing for feed traffic to their main hubs.

But some are also looking for day-light like AF, BA and LH although they keep also their overnight flights.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Question: Does anybody with some inside info know if Iberia/TAP are considering making any changes to their departure banks to these destinations in the near future?

I doubt LongHaul, their fleet is so limited and an overnight flight will demand for sure more widebodies.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know.

So do I, and during sometime the only option was the AF CDG-GIG flight since RG is not flying FRA-GIG anymore (now it's FRA-GRU-GIG).

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 6):
Yup, thats a go! missed out on that one.
Both carriers have excellent connections coming back from both GIG and GRU.

Another options you have to fly non-stop and avoid possible delays at GRU:
- 3 weekly Pluna flights (also OVERNIGHT) MAD-GIG with 763 and very interesting Premium Economy (Business) deals.
- 2 weekly CGN-GIG flights (BRA, with cheaper C deals)
- 4 weekly MAD-GIG UX flights (daylight) with a better time table than IB
- New Daily overnight service CDG-GIG with JJ.

Nice trips to Rio!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
longhaul67
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 6):
Well, you could mix and match. If there ever was an advantage for an Aliance this must be one. Outbound on LH/LX and inbound on TP. Or outbound on BA and inbound on IB.

True. But usually the return options work well with all carriers. If only LH could find it in their hearts (and minds) to return to GIG. I am surprised they haven't done so already given the current market situation. Maybe they've also run out of widebodies like everyone else? I read a while ago that AF are having extremely good load factors to GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 8):
Another options you have to fly non-stop and avoid possible delays at GRU:
- 3 weekly Pluna flights (also OVERNIGHT) MAD-GIG with 763 and very interesting Premium Economy (Business) deals.
- 2 weekly CGN-GIG flights (BRA, with cheaper C deals)
- 4 weekly MAD-GIG UX flights (daylight) with a better time table than IB
- New Daily overnight service CDG-GIG with JJ.

Thanks for the info Felipe, I'm gonna check it out.
It would mean stepping out of the great alliances though. And that kinda complicates things if you need a connecting flight...
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ? I've flown to GIG with AF, BA, LH and RG but not JJ. I am very keen on trying them.

Bjorn
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ? I've flown to GIG with AF, BA, LH and RG but not JJ. I am very keen on trying them.

Considering the plane service, they are a very good airline but on ground, they become a little confused airline because of their strong growing during the last 2-3 years. But they have comfort seats on C/F, and their Y keep PTV on all seats. Food is great and F/A are always polite. I believe you will have a good experience with them. And if you fly JJ, do not forget to enroll on their Fidelidade because with a single CDG-GIG-CDG trip you will receive points enough to allow a GIG-EZE or SCL (one way flight).

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
It would mean stepping out of the great alliances though. And that kinda complicates things if you need a connecting flight...

I get your point and i face the same problem, there isn't a major operator in Rio with services to a lot of places.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 5):
Right now AF is capitalizing on this with the introduction of their second daily to GIG.

AF introduced the second daily to GRU. GIG keeps daily operations in 2-class while GRU gets 3-class service.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
I am surprised they haven't done so already given the current market situation. Maybe they've also run out of widebodies like everyone else? I read a while ago that AF are having extremely good load factors to GIG.

LH/LX does not operate to GIG because it decided to focus on GRU where it operates 20 weekly flights. GIG could be in LH future plans, but nothing concrete, while GRU is top priority.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ?

I would not use JJ, it service has been deteriorating. It is not a reliable airline. You could also try BA via GRU 3 x week or perhaps KLM which operates GIG with JJ codeshare.

Rgs,
 
EddieDude
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
I would not use JJ, it service has been deteriorating

Hi Hardi, how's the new year treating you my friend? I had not heard anything about JJ's service lately (except for the cries of outrage of many a.netters that the MD-11s are not going to be refitted with JJ's seats in the premium cabins) but this is really bad. I hope this is only a temporary situation resulting from JJ's expansion (like teething problems, if you will) and that everything will be sorted out soon. JJ is a reference in Latin America and it should continue to offer outstanding service notwithstanding the fact that its routemap is expanding or the entry of older planes from other types.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
AF086
Posts: 509
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
AF introduced the second daily to GRU. GIG keeps daily operations in 2-class while GRU gets 3-class service.

GIG will be 2x daily eff. 28OCT. Just like GRU. But still no F service (wonder if GIG will ever get it again).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
LH/LX does not operate to GIG because it decided to focus on GRU where it operates 20 weekly flights. GIG could be in LH future plans, but nothing concrete, while GRU is top priority.

A mistake if you ask me. Wish LH came back with the original LH526/7 (FRA-EZE-SCL) which had good load factors (as stated in this forum some time ago), leaving LH502/3 as an exclusive flight to GRU so in the end you would get extra seats for there. Also a FRA-GIG flight would be very interesting since it used to have excellent loads when operated by RG and now they're flying GIG-GRU-FRA with the GIG-GRU leg being flown by a 733 (usually full). Also we have to see that LH wouldn't only get the GIG-FRA pax but the ones connecting to the rest of the world via Frankfurt and those connecting at GIG to other parts in Brazil (specially VIX, BHZ, REC, SSA and BSB) that have better timed connections at GIG.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
longhaul67
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting AF086 (Reply 13):
Also we have to see that LH wouldn't only get the GIG-FRA pax but the ones connecting to the rest of the world via Frankfurt and those connecting at GIG to other parts in Brazil (specially VIX, BHZ, REC, SSA and BSB) that have better timed connections at GIG.

This is the part which I dont understand from LH's point of view. Surely there must be a large demand for FRA-GIG now that VARIG is being kicked out of STAR. FRA is by far the #1 hub in Europe within the alliance and it must be able to generate enough traffic to support such a route. I suppose the reason why it was cancelled in the first place was because VARIG was also covering it at the time?
 
AF086
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 14):
I suppose the reason why it was cancelled in the first place was because VARIG was also covering it at the time?

Yes. When LH dropped GIG the info we had was that the german airline was leaving the FRA-GIG route to be operated by RG with LH codesharing. And indeed LH had their code on RG8744 (later RG8778).
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting AF086 (Reply 13):
GIG will be 2x daily eff. 28OCT

Are you sure? I have no concrete informatino on this as yet. To start with, the bilateral Brazil-France does not even allow AF to increase its flights. The bilteral is at its limit currently, both AF and JJ have 3 daily flights.

Rgs,

[Edited 2007-01-15 09:41:21]
 
jog
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
The bilteral is at its limit currently, both AF and JJ have 3 daily flights.

IIRC, the bilateral allows for 4 daily flights. In Brazil the rights for one daily flight still remain with RG. To allow JJ to fly its third daily flight the number of flights for both countries was recently increased.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Jog (Reply 17):
IIRC, the bilateral allows for 4 daily flights. In Brazil the rights for one daily flight still remain with RG. To allow JJ to fly its third daily flight the number of flights for both countries was recently increased.

Correct, however, AF was not yet accorder the right for the 4th daily by the French Government. I have not seen any official announcement by AF and the flight is not yet loaded.

There are NO confirmation of a second daily flight to GIG by AF, especially now that TAM started GIG-CDG. And I doubt that AF would simply double flights to GIG - even in the case of GRU, AF has added its second daily flights in phases.

Rgs,
 
longhaul67
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
There are NO confirmation of a second daily flight to GIG by AF, especially now that TAM started GIG-CDG.

According to AF flight schedule the second daily to GIG will start 28 Oct as AF444 and will be flown by an A332
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 19):
According to AF flight schedule the second daily to GIG will start 28 Oct as AF444 and will be flown by an A332

Interesting that has been no announcement so far...but flights is loaded on AF timetable, one will operate daylight. Tks for the info, anyway.

Thanks
 
C010T3
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:11 pm

Hardiwv, I wonder why you always have to highlight "GRU's superiority", when it's not even being mentioned... Nobody is denying that GRU isn't everything you say every single time there's a thread about Brazil. But have some respect towards the forum members that believe in GIG's potential. Do we always have to hear you undermine GIG?
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 21):
Hardiwv, I wonder why you always have to highlight "GRU's superiority", when it's not even being mentioned... Nobody is denying that GRU isn't everything you say every single time there's a thread about Brazil. But have some respect towards the forum members that believe in GIG's potential. Do we always have to hear you undermine GIG?

What is your problem? Do you want me to state that GIG has more flights than GRU? Or perhaps that GIG is AF priority? Or even that AF yields and loads to GIG are higher than GRU??? I will never make these kind of statements, because they are WRONG!!!!!!!!

Funny! You certainly dont know what you are speaking about...have a look in my profile and my webpage: Rio de Janeiro...I am the number 2 defender of Rio in this forum, after Lipe. But you can be sure of one thing: I will always ponder my views about Rio, rational comes before emotional!

Rgs,

ps: I just came back from yet another holiday in Rio, 4th time in 2006 alone.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:05 pm

I would try JJ. I hear they are a good airline that has good customer service.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
I would try JJ.

Read this before:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/tam.htm

Rgs,
 
longhaul67
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:17 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
Read this before:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/...m.htm

Reading through these reviews I couldn't help noticing that all the bad experiences started around Dec 06 and seem to continue. Any particular reason for this?
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 25):
Reading through these reviews I couldn't help noticing that all the bad experiences started around Dec 06 and seem to continue. Any particular reason for this?

Corect. TAM delays started mainly in December/07. According to TAM the delays are because of "unexpected maintenance of aircraft"...hard do believe...however, the deterioration of service has been a constant trend over past months.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
Interesting that has been no announcement so far...but flights is loaded on AF timetable, one will operate daylight. Tks for the info, anyway.

Yes no announcements yet, only here we discuss about the new flights. I believe probably six months before the flight, AF will begin to promote... also i expect they establish the same deal they made for the daylight to Sao Paulo (50% of FF Miles)  Smile

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Funny! You certainly dont know what you are speaking about...have a look in my profile and my webpage: Rio de Janeiro...I am the number 2 defender of Rio in this forum, after Lipe. But you can be sure of one thing: I will always ponder my views about Rio, rational comes before emotional!

Well, i joined A.Net because i use to see here a lot of "low yield / bad market" statements, and i can say now that the destination is growing, operators are ALL happy, everyone is surprised (the last one was Tam....), so i believe there is something wrong with the market demand study! Well Hardi, one thing i have to say, AF takes 4 steps to grow GRU from 7x to 10x to 12x to 13x to 14x, and decided to go from 7x to 14x in Rio in a single improvement. Funny!

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):

Hey, my apologises, forgot to say: welcome to A.Net !
Good to see more Rio lovers here !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:49 am

Fellow A-Netters,

Please disreguard my comment about trying JJ. I would fly TAP or IB. They have a good product.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
hardiwv
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 27):
Well Hardi, one thing i have to say, AF takes 4 steps to grow GRU from 7x to 10x to 12x to 13x to 14x, and decided to go from 7x to 14x in Rio in a single improvement. Funny!

GRU will operates 2 daily flights about 10 months before GIG even get an (unconfirmed) additional flight, does it mean something? Yes, GRU is more important for AF. In addition, GRU get F service, while GIG only 2-class. There is no dispute that GRU brings more cash for AF than GIG. Over the last months, GRU 2xday flights are (combined) posting higher loads than GIG single flight. Last but not least, in GRU AF has to compete with basicall all European legacy carriers...while in GIG...

What many a.net members stated, is that GIG is typically a low yielding market, or leisure market,. while GRU a business high yielding market - one of the few that can sustain F class service by a range of airlines: LH, AF, BA, etc.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 27):
also i expect they establish the same deal they made for the daylight to Sao Paulo (50% of FF Miles)

I hope so...it has been very difficult to get miles tkt to GRU recently...

Let's now hope that LH reintroduces GIG flights!

Rgs,
 
C010T3
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
What is your problem? Do you want me to state that GIG has more flights than GRU? Or perhaps that GIG is AF priority? Or even that AF yields and loads to GIG are higher than GRU??? I will never make these kind of statements, because they are WRONG!!!!!!!!

I think you should read my post one more time before saying anything. Perhaps you should read the whole thread one more time, because I'm not sure if you realised that you jumped to correct LongHaul67, when he was actually right and had not even mentioned or questioned "GRU's superiority". I never said that your arguments are wrong, but the way you uninterruptedly and contemptuously state it is really annoying.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
...while in GIG...

While in GIG several people are forced to connect at GRU, like you, myself, and dozens more. You can say a lot about the power of Sao Paulo Hardi, but it's easy to become the number 1 while there are no services for other destinations. It's a shame GRU-JFK 5x daily and NO ONE GIG-JFK. It means 100% of people from JFK goes ONLY to Sao Paulo ? What About LHR, MEX, LIM, BOG, CCS...
I'm sorry, for sure Sao Paulo could be the major business center, but the numbers there includes RIO, POA, SSA, BSB, CNF, CWB, IGU.... and for sure, as the brazilian airport, need to be strong.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
I hope so...it has been very difficult to get miles tkt to GRU recently...

For sure, Brazilian Real is now stronger, people are willing to travel abroad, and Europe does not require visas for Brazilians (also there is no good deal to the US during january), and due to the lack of tkts to other destinations also...

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
AF086
Posts: 509
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
GRU will operates 2 daily flights about 10 months before GIG even get an (unconfirmed) additional flight, does it mean something? Yes, GRU is more important for AF. In addition, GRU get F service, while GIG only 2-class.

Also It's been stated in this forum that GIG could have a F service. I guess that having the first NEV lounge in the world must mean something right?  

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
There is no dispute that GRU brings more cash for AF than GIG.

Nobody said that GIG generates more income to AF than GRU. But you must see that AF's flights to GRU have among other things a larger pencentage of pax connecting at GRU and SP to/from traffic which is also good.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
Over the last months, GRU 2xday flights are (combined) posting higher loads than GIG single flight.

Yes but you must agree that a daily 747 flight with 85%+ loads throughout the year means something right?


Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
Last but not least, in GRU AF has to compete with basicall all European legacy carriers...while in GIG...

Yes at GRU AF must compete with more european carriers. But keep in mind that GRU receives connecting pax to/from Brazil and some south american cities like ASU, EZE and MVD.

At GIG af has less competition? True. But the demand of traffic to/from Rio (and connections through GIG) is larger than the offer that airlines make here so whoever adds service to GIG these days (to strong markets such as London, Frankfurt and Milan for instance) and advertises them properly (like Delta did) has a big chance of success. Larger than adding service to a saturated airport like GRU.

Also about the second daily flight GIG-CDG not being confirmed: try to book a GIG-CDG ticket at Air France - Brasil's website for OCT 28th onwards...you'll have a surprise.

[Edited 2007-01-15 19:09:15]
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 21):
But have some respect towards the forum members that believe in GIG's potential. Do we always have to hear you undermine GIG?

I think it should start with you.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
I'm sorry, for sure Sao Paulo could be the major business center, but the numbers there includes RIO, POA, SSA, BSB, CNF, CWB, IGU.... and for sure, as the brazilian airport, need to be strong.

Sao Paulo COULD not, Sao Paulo IS South America no. 1 business center, and therefore number one airport/gateway.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 32):
Nobody said that GIG generates more income to AF than GRU. But you must see that AF's flights to GRU have among other things a larger pencentage of pax connecting at GRU and SP to/from traffic which is also good.



Quoting AF086 (Reply 32):
Yes at GRU AF must compete with more european carriers. But keep in mind that GRU receives connecting pax to/from Brazil

Interesting, but in my view GIG should generate more connections than GRU. Why? GIG centrers ALL domestic traffic (in Sao Paulo CGH attracts the domestic traffic). Remember: SDU can only operate CGH-SDU shuttle. It means GIG should have far more "connectivity" than GRU - where most pax have to go through the hassle of a bus transfer to CGH. It means that GRU in itself has the power to attract flights, with or without connections.

For example, nowadays it is far more easier to connect to BSB via GIG than GRU. All AF pax to BSB are routed via GIG. The statement that GRU captures all connnections of Brazil is a falacy.

GIG has the connections GRU does NOT to a number of destinations, even POA is better connected via GIG than GRU.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:20 am

Hardi,

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 33):
For example, nowadays it is far more easier to connect to BSB via GIG than GRU. All AF pax to BSB are routed via GIG. The statement that GRU captures all connnections of Brazil is a falacy.

GIG has the connections GRU does NOT to a number of destinations, even POA is better connected via GIG than GRU.

To connect someone the first step is the international flight... seems that Rio keeps only a few destinations and 1/4 of GRU flights. Also, domestic fares to Rio use to be expensive on BSB-GIG because of government traffic (Gol's second busiest route just after the shuttle service with 9 daily flights). It's not falacy, it's a fact that people goes to GRU because of the wide offer of destinations and flights, as well as service class...
Some BSB pax goes to GIG (MAD,LIS,CDG,EZE & MIA), but for sure more goes to GRU (AMS, FRA, MUC, ZRH, PEK, PTY, LIM, CCS, BOG, SCL, MIA x5, JFK, DFW, LHR, MXP, JNB).

Even RIO connects at GRU, imagine BSB!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 34):
To connect someone the first step is the international flight...

My friend Lipe: this is why I always state that GRU in its own generates about 50% of the loads - or about the same it generates for the Brazilian economy, i.e. Sao Paulo is about 40% of Brazil GDP, however, it centres the international business, so we can expect GRU market to generate at least 50% of flight demand, the rest is connections. Not to mention that when it comes to yields, or demand for C/F class, Sao Paulo can easily take care of about 60 to 70% of the loads. This is why ailrines fly and will keep flying to GRU, although the airport does not receive the expansion and investment it deserves. While GRU is almost at full capacity GIG keeps using only about 60% of its capacity.

However, with INFRAERO wise decision to relocate domestic flights from SDU to GIG, GIG is increasingly becoming more attractive. In my last flight to GIG last December (AF in C), many pax of C class were connecting to BSB. This connection effect provided a major boost to GIG and we hope that airlines will increase flights to GIG. GIG should be Brazil's connecting airport while GRU can take care of its own demand.

Now, in the next stage GIG should get greater connections to other South American destinations. GIG now is only connected nonstop with PTY, EZE, MVD and SCL.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
My friend Lipe: this is why I always state that GRU in its own generates about 50% of the loads

And i always states it's too much.

As you will never accept my number and i cannot accept yours, better take a chopp at Ipanema Beach !

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
While GRU is almost at full capacity GIG keeps using only about 60% of its capacity

With 5x GRU-JFK and Zero GIG-JFK... i can say that airlines are not so smart paying 16% comission, selling C and Y cheap tickets and a lot of people saying that it's High Yield... Another chopp at Bar do Luiz, Cinelandia !
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:18 am

Lipe: indeed, I think only a chopp in Ipanema will mend our fences! No worry, I love GIG as much as I love Rio...  Smile and you can be sure: while Sao Paulo has my flight connections, Rio has my heart!  Wink

Rgs,
 
C010T3
Posts: 1645
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 33):
I think it should start with you.

I'm sorry if you can't take criticism...
 
AF086
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
GIG should be Brazil's connecting airport while GRU can take care of its own demand.

I agree with you (and I guess we all do) but, unfortunately, that's not the way things work.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 36):
better take a chopp at Ipanema Beach !

I have to agree there. Is there room for an extra person?  Big grin
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting AF086 (Reply 13):
Also a FRA-GIG flight would be very interesting since it used to have excellent loads when operated by RG

Excellent loads do not always mean excellent profits. Many airlines have discovered this the hard way and no longer exist. SAO has much more high-yield business traffic than RIO. The same situation applies to/from North America, with much more direct service to SAO than RIO.

I'm sure major carriers are smart enough to know how to maximize their profitability and make the best use of their fleets. If they thought operating a nonstop flight to GIG instead of wherever the aircraft that would be operating that flight is now operating, I'm sure they would.

I'm not sure whether air service agreements between Brazil and major countries in Europe permit unlimited frequencies. If my memory is correct, Brazil has always been rather restrictive re traffic rights and capacity. If that's the case, carriers have to make use of the frequencies they are permitted in the most profitable way, which most of them have obviously determined is to serve SAO and rely on connecting services for RIO.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
Excellent loads do not always mean excellent profits. Many airlines have discovered this the hard way and no longer exist. SAO has much more high-yield business traffic than RIO. The same situation applies to/from North America, with much more direct service to SAO than RIO.

In this case, this route use to be 1st ranked on RG and one of few really profitable and due to this they used their 2 best metals (the only two 772 received from Boeing with Avod) . There are more in Rio than you imagine. Sao Paulo is bigger than Rio, there are more business for sure, but Rio keep one thing: oil, and it's by far one of the top 3 techonological places in the entire world for deep water research. Every week hundreds come to Rio for trainning, seminars, meetings.
If the airlines does not have knowledge on this, i'm sorry but a few of them treat Rio as they treat Sao Paulo (AF, TP and AR for example).

One think for me it's clear, Brazil is strong and you just need to start a service, wherever you start (GIG or GRU), and if the destination is strong, will be profitable for sure. And Rio keep the advantage to be underserved.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
If my memory is correct, Brazil has always been rather restrictive re traffic rights and capacity. If that's the case, carriers have to make use of the frequencies they are permitted in the most profitable way, which most of them have obviously determined is to serve SAO and rely on connecting services for RIO.

Your memory is correct, but the demand for SAO is not only SAO, is Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Montevideo, Porto Alegre, Brasilia and much more!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia/TAP To Brazil

Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
SAO has much more high-yield business traffic than RIO. The same situation applies to/from North America, with much more direct service to SAO than RIO



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 41):
I'm sure major carriers are smart enough to know how to maximize their profitability and make the best use of their fleets. If they thought operating a nonstop flight to GIG instead of wherever the aircraft that would be operating that flight is now operating, I'm sure they would

You are correct in both statements. We cannot think that airlines are guided by "UNprofitable" or "irrational" principles. Airlines will NOT operate in GIG just because it is more "beautiful" than GRU. Airlines are after profits and yields, and unless GIG becomes more attractive GRU will remain king.


Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 41):
Your memory is correct, but the demand for SAO is not only SAO, is Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Montevideo, Porto Alegre, Brasilia and much more!

Lipe: the same applies to GIG. And it is actually now easier to connect in GIG rather than GRU. As a result, we could expect GIG position to improve: 1) better domestic connection (although GIG has to improve in connections to South American destinations, and we expect this to improve with the PAN); 2) slot availability, while GRU is close to saturation; 3) lack of competition, which drives yields higher.

Rgs,

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