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BALandorLivery
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TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:38 am

I hope this link works...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe50R7Iufls

In this video of a landing the atmosphere is very loud with raised voices continuously. It is in stark contrast to anything i've seen before from a 'western' cockpit video.

It gives (and do not take this the wrong way) a somewhat disorderly impression.

And what is the captain doing with the controls on finals!!!!!!!

Enjoy discussing............
 
legacy135
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:56 am

What in the hell is that Captain talking all the time? Normally SOP's say somewhat like "......... in terminal areas no unessential talking........."

Maybe somebody speaking Russian could tell us the subject of the Captain's ongoing talking.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
David L
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:02 am

I don't speak a word of Russian but it looks to me as if the Captain is... ahem... "coaching" the FO.  Smile
 
ac747
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:28 am

That's hilarious !
Any idea which Russian airline that might be ? Any way of telling ?
Also, was that a training flight do you think, or a passenger service ?
I'd hate to think the crew were behaving like that during landing if I was back in the cabin. I thought the captain was going to lean over and hit the poor guy !!
Haven't we been here before ?
 
RIXrat
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:47 am

Don't speak Russian either, but the F/O was calling out the altitude from 40 meters on down. I may be wrong, but is it not SOP for the non-flying officer to call out landing altitudes in order not to distract the flying pilot.

So, was the captain flying the aircraft, but his violent yanking of the controls didn't seem to move the plane a bit as far as can be seen from the video. When he let go the stick moved by itself, indicating that he had reset to autopilot, or the F/O was flying. I heard the flight engineer twice, but otherwise he kept his mouth shut. Can you imagine if he had joined in the fray.

We need a Russian-speaker to straighten this one out.
 
Thom@s
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:54 am

I dunno what was said, but I would NOT want to be on that plane during landing...

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
RJ100
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:47 am

Cool clip.

I did not understand everything. But in the end he is counting.

10 desyat
9 devyat
8 vociem
7 siem
6 schest
5 pyat
4 tschetirie
3 tri
2 dva
1 odin

Once he mentions "horosho" which means good. Seems like the captain explaining something to the FO. Maybe I will understand more once I have finished my language training in Russian Big grin .

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
BA777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:55 am

The timers sound like the ones in Wallace and Gromit!

Interersting video, not quite my cup of tea...

Henry
 
Sketty222
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:09 am

It sounded like someone was ringing the bell off of a bicycle about 1min before landing

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
DeC
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:17 am

Woah, the captain's such a tight one! Excellent video!
DEC
 
noelg
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:55 am

Excellent video! It looked like the captain was giving the F/O a bollocking for being a bit harsh on the controls with the sarcastic movements on the controls - you can imagine him saying "You're handling it like this!".

Eastern European/Russian flightdecks do seem to have a lot more shouting going on than Western aircraft - even for routine flights. Watch the SkyEurope JustPlanes DVD and you'll see it's the same there to some extent.
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:09 am

Looks like a training flight. Most of talk is altitute, speed and disance readouts. Something about wing mechanization, too (someone was late with flaps, or whatever, I think). There are some comments in style "how are you doing it, it's not good", but the captain's voice makes impression there is more useless noise than indeed is  Smile At the end captain after all says "molodyets", which means "good boy", so it wasn't so bad  Wink
IIRC there are 3-person crews in 154, so some more talk than with 2 would be obvious.
What the captain does with the yoke is a trainer exaggeration of what the trainee does - he says moment before "you are shaking it".
 
USAFHummer
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting AC747 (Reply 3):
Any idea which Russian airline that might be ? Any way of telling ?

I think its Sibir...if you look at the keywords the videographer has chosen, both S7 and Sibir are there...
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
OlegShv
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:25 am

I've seen this video before, and from what I've read in the Russian forums, the guy who posted it got in trouble at the company where he worked. So here I tried to translate what they were saying. There is definitely no "unessential talking" in this video, and no one is cursing or anything like that.

The FO is actually very new to this type. As the video starts, the captain says that the spoilers need to be retracted and he is not happy as they loose airspeed, then they read the checklist at the end of 1 minute. The FO did not extend the flaps in time and the captain was not impressed.

They extend the flaps, captain asks to check the rwy winds with ATC, the FO checks with ATC (at about 1:40) and then the captain tells him extend the gear and he puts the gear lever down (1:45).

After that captain tells the engineer to set the engines to 83% N1 (1:50). At about 2:00, the captain says that the FO should "command him" to turn on the landing lights and extend the flaps to 36 degrees. Then the FO says that they intercepted the glideslope, but the captain points him to show that they haven't yet (2:15).

Full flaps (45 degrees) at 2:20, and they start reading landing checklist, and at 2:38 they finish the checklist reporting to ATC that they are ready to land. At 2:40 just as the camera zooms in to the approaching runway, the ATC clears them for landing.

At 2:45 the FO says that they are a tad to high, and the captain commands 81% N1 to the engineer.
As they go over the OM, you can hear the buzzer, and the captain says that FO shouldn't wabble the yoke left and right (2:55- 3:00). At 3:05 captain commands 80%N1 to the engineeer, while FO reports the speed is 290.

At 3:10 the captain moves the yoke left and right and tells the FO that his "wabbling" left and right is pointless and the plane will just go straight. At 3:25, FO reports speed 280. At 80 meters FO requests decision, the captain replies so that they proceed with landing.

Then the FO counts down the altitude until they land, and then he reads out the speed as they decelerate on the runway.
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:26 am

The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

Is it normal for the engineers to control the throttles on approach in this aircraft type/company?
 
OlegShv
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 14):
The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

Is it normal for the engineers to control the throttles on approach in this aircraft type/company?

I've read a book written by a Russian captain of Tu-154 about his work and flying the Tu-154. It seems like it is engineer's job to control the throttles according the captains requests, although the pilots could also use the levers that they have if necessary.
 
Thom@s
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 6):
1 odin

No kidding? Cool.  Smile

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
WN230
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:59 am

Looks like the capt. doesn't want just anybody piloting the plane. Just a little tough love, that's all.  Wink

WN230
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bucky707
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 14):
The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

I got a ride in a Royal Air Force VC-10 once. The engineer handled the throttles all the time, right down to the flare, with the pilots calling out power settings.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:13 am

Not much to say here really. Listened to the words, seemed like a training flight. Altitude was called out during the entire descent. New pilot was trying to fly aircraft and captain was giving him advice. The captain was a bit annoyed by the constant movement that the new pilot applied to the throttle and told him to stop, by showing him that moving it around won't really alter much, therefore there was no point. Pretty much it.

-Aeroflot777
 
PRGDLGUY
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 11):
IIRC there are 3-person crews in 154, so some more talk than with 2 would be obvious.

On some Tu154 are four person crews - the fourth is navigator.
 
DeC
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 19):
The captain was a bit annoyed by the constant movement that the new pilot applied to the throttle and told him to stop, by showing him that moving it around won't really alter much, therefore there was no point. Pretty much it.

You probably mean ‘yoke’.
DEC
 
DeC
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
At 3:10 the captain moves the yoke left and right and tells the FO that his "wabbling" left and right is pointless and the plane will just go straight.

Does anyone else find that movement a bit violent or dangerous and slightly out of place? I mean the captain clearly has a point there but I was amazed to see that abrupt movement...plus, again the pilot is 100% right with his remarks but I truly think that his tone and general attitude won’t do any good, on the contrary, he might have actually stressed the F/O even more, leading to more mistakes. What do you think?
DEC
 
levg79
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 1):
Maybe somebody speaking Russian could tell us the subject of the Captain's ongoing talking.

As already mentioned, it's clear that the captain is teaching the F/O and is giving out some pointers to him about what needs to be done and how.

Quoting AC747 (Reply 3):
I thought the captain was going to lean over and hit the poor guy !!

Actually the F/O mentioned capturing the glideslope and the captain leaned over and pointed out that it hadn't been captured yet.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 4):
but the F/O was calling out the altitude from 40 meters on down. I may be wrong, but is it not SOP for the non-flying officer to call out landing altitudes in order not to distract the flying pilot.

Actually from speaking to a former Soviet pilot, it is F/E's job to call out altitude so the F/O was solely doing the flying.

Quoting Noelg (Reply 10):
It looked like the captain was giving the F/O a bollocking for being a bit harsh on the controls with the sarcastic movements on the controls - you can imagine him saying "You're handling it like this!".

This is exactly what he said!

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
Then the FO counts down the altitude until they land, and then he reads out the speed as they decelerate on the runway.

Once again, that is F/E's job.

By the way, thank you OlegShv for your contribution. Otherwise I was about to do the whole translation issue.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
OlegShv
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting PRGDLGUY (Reply 20):
On some Tu154 are four person crews - the fourth is navigator.

I'm pretty sure that most if not all of Russian (or former USSR) operators of Tu-154 have crews of 4 on this type (compared to the crews of 3 in the European operators of Tu-154). From what I understand, there is no IRS on that type and there aren't as many VOR/DMEs installed across the vast territory of Russia compared to Europe and USA, so to reduce the workload on the pilots, they have a navigator in the crew. Also, IIRC, the navigator is authorized to perform radio communications with ATC.

Interesting thing is that newer Ilyushin 96-300 equipped with IRS, but they still assign a navigator to the crew (so there are crews of 4). However, I guesss this is just because SU and other Russian Il-96 operators don't want to lay off navigators who worked there for 25-30 years and they'll just let those folks retire.
 
OlegShv
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting DeC (Reply 22):
Does anyone else find that movement a bit violent or dangerous and slightly out of place? I mean the captain clearly has a point there but I was amazed to see that abrupt movement...

Well, from dynamics viewpoint this is a heavy aircraft (relatively), so it acts as a low-pass filter, so to speak. Meaning that it has too much inertia to respond to those high-frequency inputs from the yoke.
 
remcor
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:54 pm

My wife speaks Russian and I played it for her. It's clearly a teaching flight, and although the Captain seems like a bit of a jerk, he is correcting and training the F/O.
 
ACDC8
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:05 pm

Fantastic video! Those of us who have done any form of flight at all have surley had such an instructor, grabbing the controls, a few harsh words and then compliments and such. Very interesting to watch.

I was just wondering if anyone ended up answering the phone that was ringing in the cockpit ....  Silly
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting DeC (Reply 21):
You probably mean ‘yoke’.

LMAO, yes I do indeed. Haven't slept for 2 days. My apologies!

Aeroflot777
 
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solnabo
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:27 pm

I´ve got the same sound on my doorbell. My house is from the 60´s too..

Jeeeehhh...

Micke//  boggled 
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:41 pm

I thought the captain sounded a lot like Oskar Kokoshka from the Hey Arnold cartoon. Sort of yelling and whining at the same time.

Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:21 pm

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 29):
I�ve got the same sound on my doorbell.

So it's all clear. Someone wanted to get into the cockpit  Wink

Quoting Thom@s (Reply 16):
Quoting RJ100 (Reply 6):
1 odin

No kidding? Cool.

Well, not 100% cool  Smile It's read "adin", "a" like in "afterburner".
 
HaveBlue
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:43 pm

My buddy has flown L-1011's for a few different companies outside of the states, and as FE or 2nd officer he manipulates the throttles at the PF's call outs. I believe he did this for Kalettas 747's too.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
mika
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:04 pm

The captain's behavior does seem abit rough yes, although i'm sure that this is just tough love and that it produces a good pilot in the end.

Russian pilots are (at least to me) known to be competent so i'm not questioning their methods of training.


Cool video!
 
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Francoflier
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:14 pm

This is a comment posted by someone who apparently speaks russian, it's below the video on Youtube:

"The Captain's teaching the F/O to land just like they teach driving in Russia. The instructor's goal is not to teach, but to intimidate the student, to show him that he's such a zero compared to such a cool instructor. Typically Russian approach, it's still a shock to see it happen in a passenger jet cockpit."

I don't know if he has any aviation knowledge, but it tells a lot.

Being taught to fly the 'western' way, I must say that this is a bit frightening, I don't believe you get someone to learn more or faster by yelling at him al the time and telling him everything he does is wrong. He might not have been doing things properly, but if I was an instructor, I certainly wouldn't be yelling constantly at the flying pilot during the final approach phase.
It's REALLY too noisy a cockpit for proper focus and concentration I believe.

Unless that is how they normally talk in Russia?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:45 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 34):
Being taught to fly the 'western' way, I must say that this is a bit frightening, I don't believe you get someone to learn more or faster by yelling at him al the time and telling him everything he does is wrong. He might not have been doing things properly, but if I was an instructor, I certainly wouldn't be yelling constantly at the flying pilot during the final approach phase.
It's REALLY too noisy a cockpit for proper focus and concentration I believe.

I suppose the Russian commenting on "intimidating the student" has just failed his driver's licence exam and is blaming his own instructor  Wink
I highly doubt anyone of you has never met an instructor of this style, wherever you come from  Smile
Besides, if a trainee makes an error, shouldn't the trainer correct him immediately? And if you can't concentrate in these circumstances, I'm afraid it would mean you can't be a pilot. A pilot is not a teacher at school, can't say "I won't be piloting unless you all be quiet!"  Wink
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:54 pm

I am an instructor and I would never behave like this.

The is a very authoritarian atmosphere and can lead to a dangerous breakdown in CRM.

Synergy is the way forward...
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 34):
I don't believe you get someone to learn more or faster by yelling at him al the time and telling him everything he does is wrong.

As much as it seems like he was yelling at him. He really wasn't. Just a high voice. They were all talking loudly in the first place.

Aeroflot777
 
LH648
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:25 pm

Most of Russian Airlines are taking the guys right after pilot school with 60 hours on prop and making them F/O of Tu154, not the easiest plane to fly.

So Captains are doung on job training and I don't thing they are really happy about this.
 
albird87
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:42 pm

I do live how the captain doesnt really seem to notice that his sunblind is down until like 10 seconds before landing!! It seems that he is more interested in making sure that everything inside the cockpit is in order and not where the aircraft is goin!!
 
mbj2000
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 36):
I am an instructor and I would never behave like this.

The is a very authoritarian atmosphere and can lead to a dangerous breakdown in CRM.

Synergy is the way forward...

May be true, but doesn't have a pilot to prove he can handle stress situation well? IIRC jetfighter pilot candidates have to overcome even more stressful environments before they receive their "license"...
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
Logos
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 34):
"The Captain's teaching the F/O to land just like they teach driving in Russia. The instructor's goal is not to teach, but to intimidate the student,

Off topic a bit, but this is actually similar to how they teach driving in Germany as well. Fahrschule (driving school) is a serious affair where the student is berated for his mistakes and can often take many months. The student doesn't take the driving test until deemed ready by the instructor. Fortunately I was spared the experience when I lived in Germany because they had just developed a reciprocal agreement with Massachusetts, so I only had to surrender my MA driver's license and got my Führerschein relatively trouble free.

On topic again - very interesting video. Different world.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
wing
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:42 am

I kind of find it funny to sit with jacket on during the flight.I mean I feel very uncortable with the jacket I took it off while driving to the airport.Maybe he wanted the cadet to see his gold stripes at all times.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
PILOTALLEN
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:50 am

It sounds like Borat in the backround hah....its interesting to see the TU-154 toolin around with the pilot instructing...
Thats not flying, thats falling with style -Woody
 
turpentyine
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:28 am

He is teaching with a typical russian teacher temperament. Russian students experience this from kindergarden on. So to the FO it is probebly normal and I bet he is used to it. Thats just the way
Russian people are. Part of the culture. When the FO forgets something he kind of reminds him in annoyed sarcastic way. When he shakes the yoke violently he is trying to show the the FO that there is no point in doing it because the plane is not gonna move. He says dont shake it [the plane] then he shakes the yoke and says look its still flying straight. I think the FOs name is Pavel.

[Edited 2007-01-15 17:41:41]
 
B777ER
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 34):
The Captain's teaching the F/O to land just like they teach driving in Russia. The instructor's goal is not to teach, but to intimidate the student, to show him that he's such a zero compared to such a cool instructor. Typically Russian approach, it's still a shock to see it happen in a passenger jet cockpit



Quoting Turpentyine (Reply 44):
He is teaching with a typical russian teacher temperament. Russian students experience this from kindergarden on. So to the FO it is probebly normal and I bet he is used to it. Thats just the way
Russian people are. Part of the culture.

They just yell now..I imagine back in the 70's and 80's the captain would have pulled a Makarov out and held it to the F/O's head.
 
turpentyine
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 15):
I've read a book written by a Russian captain of Tu-154 about his work and flying the Tu-154. It seems like it is engineer's job to control the throttles according the captains requests, although the pilots could also use the levers that they have if necessary.

Hey can you tell me the name of the book id like to read it too. Thnx
 
797
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:26 am

What a mess!

I wouldn't like to be in that flight, I don't know, all the yelling and disorder inside the cockpit made me rather nervous. Also when te Captain moved the yoke was like non-sense!

Not to offend anyone, but viva Boeing and Airbus! Big grin
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
legacy135
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 47):
Not to offend anyone, but viva Boeing and Airbus

Nothing against the TU-154, it's a rock solid airplane. But what the Captain shows here is just about anything as "teaching and learning" should not happen. For those giving those classes, we got a nice example here how NOT to do it Big grin

Cheers
Legacy135
 
OV735
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:04 am

Just goes to show that old habits die hard. Flight schooling is still like it was in the times of the USSR - military style. I must say, the captain sounded quite humble, considering how rich the Russian language is in cursing words.  Smile Just ask anyone who's been through Soviet or Russian army.

Quoting 797 (Reply 47):
Not to offend anyone, but viva Boeing and Airbus! Big grin

I've got to say, I still prefer metal airplanes to plastic ones... so viva Tupolev!

Cheers,
OV735

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