detroitflyer
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:01 am

Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:03 pm

Currently detroit only serves the following cities regurarly non stop

Frankfurt, paris, london, amsterdam and soon to be brussels and duserdorf...

I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.
Also if you can get non stops to durseldorf why cant you fill flights to zurich, rome( i believe its only seasonal), milan and maybe vienna (which should have larger markets)????
It would really be nice to see some other european metal here execpt from BA, LH and AF.

Why not??
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PanAm747
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:31 pm

One word: KLM

Northwest cannot effectively fly DTW-smaller European airports - the O&D and business traffic is simply not there.

However, KLM can do this via Amsterdam quite effectively, so DTW-WAW is done via AMS with KLM metal for part of the trip. Remember, it's all about yields, not what kind of local traffic has relatives in that country. The front 10% of the plane pays for more than half the flight.

United does the same (for the most part) with its association with LH - hit the big airports, but funnel "smaller" airport traffic through Frankfurt and Lufthansa.

When NW determines that a non-stop is needed from DTW to other locations in Europe, they'll find a way to make it happen. But for now, let KLM handle those other destinations.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.
Also if you can get non stops to durseldorf why cant you fill flights to zurich, rome( i believe its only seasonal), milan and maybe vienna (which should have larger markets)????
It would really be nice to see some other european metal here execpt from BA, LH and AF.

FCO (Rome) is speculated to return perhaps this summer/seasonal, but it is getting rather late, and the latest word was no decision had been made, thus meaning it probably won't
MXP was flown for one summer (2000) on the DC-10 and it performed absolutely terrible. It won't ever return, I'm certain of that.
Vienna & Warsaw are just too small to be effectively served, and would rely to heavily on VFR/tourist traffic, which still wouldn't be enough to fill an A330.

As said, the ease of NW/KLM connections in AMS helps to fill these types of routes. DTW may be a massive NW hub, but its not an ORD/JFK/ATL.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
duserdorf...

Who's going to be doing the DTW-DUS run? Is LH starting another PrivatAir flight or will it be a NW aircraft?

EDIT: Never mind, I just checked out the DUS website, turns out it is NW. It'll be nice to see them there.

[Edited 2007-01-16 06:07:38]
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:04 pm

Most of the Polish in the Detroit area are 2nd and 3rd generation, meaning most probably cannot speak a word of Polish other than Kielbasa and dupa... and/or most do not know their 2nd and 3rd cousins that may still be in Poland. For example, my great grandparents came from Poland, my grandparents were born here and learned Polish before English, while my mother did not know a word of Polish... until she took classes much later in life. Some of my relatives have gone and visited Poland, but most don't know anyone currently over there. I am not sure how that relates to other Polish-Americans in the Detroit area.

If you remember, LOT flew Il-62s to DTW for charters during the 1980s.

Had Northwest not had an alliance with Sky Team or KLM, we probably would be seeing more direct point to point European flights but with smaller planes. I am sure Northwest may have in that case ordered some 767s or something in the early 1990s as they were building up the DTW hub.

What surprises me more than DTW to Europe, is why aren't there more flights between DTW and the Middle East as the Middle Eastern/Arabic population is far bigger than the Polish population.... and why not more flights to Asia? Go to Novi, and some of the other Western suburbs where there is a huge Indian population. Why doesn't Northwest have direct flights to India? And does NW Flight 67 from AMS still originate in India? I thought it didn't anymore
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
And does NW Flight 67 from AMS still originate in India? I thought it didn't anymore

The official routing is SEA-AMS-BOM on an A330-200 (NW 33/34).
However, 67 does allow for easy connections from the BOM-AMS flight. (Which there are often very many).

NW was to fly AMS-BLR, but the route was pulled before it started (Ch.11 filing)
 
detroitflyer
Posts: 369
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
What surprises me more than DTW to Europe, is why aren't there more flights between DTW and the Middle East as the Middle Eastern/Arabic population is far bigger than the Polish population....

 checkmark 
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
and why not more flights to Asia? Go to Novi, and some of the other Western suburbs where there is a huge Indian population.

I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically and maybe one day there will be enough to fill flight daily, but i dont see that happening too soon.
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CHI787ORD
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
Why Not More Detroit - Europe



Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.

It also doesnt help that New York, Toronto, and Chicago all make a triangle around Detroit... all three having bigger business and leisure traffic.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Most of the Middle Easterners that live in the Detroit area are Palestinean (do not have an airline), Lebonese (believe that Middle East Airlines is still banned from the U.S.) and Iraqi (as of right now, don't have an airline). Royal Jordanian is located right in the middle of the three nationalities mentioned. There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

I really do not think Emirates would fly to DTW, or Etihad anytime soon. There aren't a lot of people in the Detroit area from the UAE and that region of the Middle East.

I could see MEA eventually flying to DTW and maybe Royal Jordanian adding frequency to 4X a week.

I believe right about the time the Invasion of Iraq started in 2003, Northwest said it was interested and I believe planning flights between DTW and Baghdad. However, I highly doubt that Iraq will become stabilized soon.

Right now, it is more convenient for a traveller going to the Palestinean regions, or Lebanon to fly KLM, Lufthansa and transfer at AMS/FRA or Royal Jordanian and transfer at Amman, than to overfly his country of destination and land in the UAE and backtrack.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically and maybe one day there will be enough to fill flight daily, but i dont see that happening too soon.

Korea will be coming back, I am almost positive (though not official). That is why Northwest ordered the 787. They couldn't fill a 744 when the Asia economic crisis hit in the late 1990s, but they could fill a 787.

If anything happens between Delta and Northwest such as mergers, I could see Korean Air flying to DTW over ATL, even if Northwest becomes Delta - for the same reasons why Emirates would probably not fly to DTW.

a. more Koreans in Detroit area
b. DTW is closer to ICN than ATL, as well as less backtracking for most connections - especially in the Northeast and Great lakes area.

I see the 787s being used to other areas that once or still have major connections through NRT, such as Taipei, Manila and Beijing/Peking depending on Government regulation etc.

I myself really wonder if Northwest is going to keep its NRT hub after the 787s come into the fleet.

I never fully understood the NRT hub. Is cabotage occuring there? ie People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?
 
detroitflyer
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:01 am

RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
(believe that Middle East Airlines is still banned from the U.S.)

wait a sec... they are banned ?? why???

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba?? I dont think USA - Iran will be happening any time soon..... Uncle Sam even tried (succesfully) to block Canada-Iran flights.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
I never fully understood the NRT hub. Is cabotage occuring there? ie People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?

I have read on this site that NRT is as important, if not more important that the DTW and MSP hubs, so im guessing, YES, they do have a lot of traffic within asia.
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atmx2000
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

The US hasn't had diplomatic relations with Iran since the embassy takeover, and isn't going to allow the airline to fly to the US.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba?? I dont think USA - Iran will be happening any time soon.

Not like Cuba. The embargo against Cuba restricts US citizens from going there and spending money. Americans can go to Iran but they can't get there directly.
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Mennix
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:54 pm

RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
Never mind, I just checked out the DUS website, turns out it is NW. It'll be nice to see them there.

You're right. It will be NW. However they're planning to come in with a 757, which will be absolutely on it's range limit. I'm not sure, if this is a really good idea. KL/NW timetable shows DUS-DTW with a distance of 4037 miles. NWA itself shows here only a max. range of 4000 miles. I think this flight could sometimes ( fully booked, strong wind ) a really PITA.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:31 pm

Yea, NWA didn't think the 757 service to Europe through at all. Probably just woke up one morning and decided to make a go of it. They're configuring the a/c with fewer seats and winglets and that will help with the range. I'm sure they've been planning this for a very long time with an incredible amount of strategizing and contingency planning.

As far as having DTW-Poland routes... Why don't they just start MSP-Mogadishu flights while they're at it. I mean, there's a HUGE Somlian population in the Twin cities metro area.

NWA will likely expand into DTW-India and mideast routes when the 787 comes online. Until then, they don't have an a/c that will suitably serve those destinations nonstop from DTW.

Without NRT, there would be no NWA. When the 787s come online they will indeed be used to overfly the NRT hub. But they'll do that while commanding a premium for those services. For those unwilling to pay the premium, there will still be connections offered via NRT. Also, everyone seems to forget that NWA has a HUGE amount of customers that are ASIAN! If NWA got rid of the NRT hub, that would completely alienate that segment of their clientele. I


AZJ
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:16 am

I'm sure one of the reasons NW chose Dusseldorf was because of Ford; Ford has one of their largest European facilities near Cologne, which will provide a good base of traffic, especially in WBC.

I was actually a little surprised NW chose DUS over CGN; I guess the larger local DUS market was the deciding factor.

Iraqi Airways was actually planning to begin service to DTW in 1991. They would have served DTW on a DTW-JFK-Baghdad routing. I think the flights would have stopped somewhere in Europe, because IA didn't have any aircraft with the range to make it nonstop from JFK to the Middle East.

Iraqi Airways had a ticket office in Southfield, on Southfield Road in a strip mall at the northeast corner of the Southfield Road / Ten Mile Road intersection, for many years in the 1980s. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 ended IA's plans to serve DTW; the ticket office was boarded up very quickly after the invasion.
 
Mennix
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
I was actually a little surprised NW chose DUS over CGN; I guess the larger local DUS market was the deciding factor.

Not to forget, that CGN has already a lousy 757 trans-atlantic connection with CO to EWR. I live in ( near ) CGN, am Sky-Team Plat fly a lot to the US but would never use this senseless flight to EWR  Smile
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 12):
Why don't they just start MSP-Mogadishu flights while they're at it. I mean, there's a HUGE Somlian population in the Twin cities metro area.

Good point...

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
they are banned ?? why???

From what I know, that was a result of the terrorist attacks in the early 1980s.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
I believe right about the time the Invasion of Iraq started in 2003, Northwest said it was interested and I believe planning flights between DTW and Baghdad. However, I highly doubt that Iraq will become stabilized soon.

What ever gave you that impression?  Wink NW was looking to invest in DTW-SDA, but alas...

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?

Yup.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Royal Jordanian is located right in the middle of the three nationalities mentioned.

I was an intern in Jordan a few years back and did just a bit of research on the situation of Royal Jordanian as far as their privatization and restructuring. Since then, however, Emirates and Etihad have become real gangbusteras and I think it's safe to say that as DXB is better placed than AMM and has much more O&D, Jordan's hopes of being the main regional hub have been dashed.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically

Wow, I grew up in Farmington Hills. The Indian population around Grand River and Halsted has been growing for some time. I find that the exceptional culinary skills of our new friends are most welcome... mmm mmm good!

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
However, 67 does allow for easy connections from the BOM-AMS flight. (Which there are often very many).

NW was to fly AMS-BLR, but the route was pulled before it started (Ch.11 filing)

I've been chatting about this on another thread and am waiting to hear back from someone about it. But from what you know, were these flights based out of AMS?
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dtw9
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

Iran Air has no service to the U.S. and hasn't had for a long time. However just prior to the 1979 revolution they were awarded Non-stop service between Detroit and Tehran.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:00 pm

Here's the link to the press release for AMS-BLR:
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2005/pr022120051558.html

These flights were even loaded into the system for a while, but magically vanished overnight as the mechanics strike and then Ch. 11 filing occured.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:33 pm

To answer your questions, I think there are a couple of reasons why DTW doesnt see more traffic on an international level:

1) as some have mentioned, KLM can effectively serve Europe from DTW through AMS. It would not be in KLM's best interest to have NW serve a bunch of cities in Europe and the middle east that they can serve from AMS.

2) Another is its simple geographic location. ORD and NYC are on either side of DTW. There arent many carriers that would want to serve DTW over JFK or ORD.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Despite Detroit's very large middle eastern population, most middle eastern carriers will serve JFK or ORD over DTW. The cities are simply much larger with more O&D.
It is what it is...
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
Another is its simple geographic location. ORD and NYC are on either side of DTW. There arent many carriers that would want to serve DTW over JFK or ORD.

Dont forget YYZ to the north. Metro Detroit may have a large population, but its geographic proximity to New York, Chicago, and Toronto kills it with international airlines.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba??

There was an American on my tour in Iran in September last year so I don't think the US Government has any prohibition on travel for US citizens - but I cant see IR being permitted to fly to the US
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:59 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

Even if IR had service to the US, Los Angeles and New York would come first.
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acidradio
Crew
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RE: Why Not More Detroit - Europe

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:54 pm

NW does not do more out of DTW because they lack the kind of equipment to do smaller cities. NW never ordered the 767, which is ideal for trans-Atlantic runs, unlike their competitors. If it was international and could not fill up a DC10, it was too small to make happen. Somewhere they decided to place more emphasis on the Asian markets and let KLM handle most of the European flying. Of course, now they are converting 757s to do smaller European cities and/or thinner routes to AMS. This is the hot thing to do lately, with equipment that is already on the property.

Rather than buy the 767, which did not have a standard-sized cargo bin (cargo being very important to NW's business model), they decided that it was more prudent to haul pax and cargo to a major European gateway like AMS and let their partner KLM haul them the rest of the way. When you look at it, NW is the only US trans-oceanic major pax carrier that did NOT buy the 767.
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