Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:53 am

I was recently on a flight from DFW to MOB on AA. AA flies an ERJ between the two (2) cities. Well, as I handed my ticket to the gate agent to board, myself, my business partner, and two (2) other customers were denied boarding because of a weights and balances issue. While I understand the weights and balances issue and that they need to remove a certain number of passengers from the plane, the gate agent told me that we were the passengers selected to be removed because we were the last to buy a ticket with restrictions. Between myself and my travelling partner, our tickets cost $2,400...Can someone explain to me the logic of this policy??

It seems to me that the people that purchase their ticket the closest to the departure date pay the most money and obviously NEED to be at that destination. Whereas, if someone purchased their ticket months prior, they may be a bit more flexible with their schedule and most likely would not have paid even half the price of the person that bought their ticket last minute. Why penalize those that paid the most money? Why penalize those that clearly need to be at that destination?? It doesn't make sense to me...
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:06 am

Interesting for sure, guess they didn't want to ask for volunteers and treat it like on overbooking as that would cost $$! Did you get compensated?

I'd think that in a situation where weight restrictions are happening they'd remove the last to check-in as those times should be noted in the company computer and remove folks based on that rather than time/date of ticket purchase and maybe some airlines operate as such.....just IMHO!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 1):
Interesting for sure, guess they didn't want to ask for volunteers and treat it like on overbooking as that would cost $$! Did you get compensated?

Actually, they did ask for volunteers, but no one volunteered.
 
MUWarriors
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 12:11 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:52 am

I guess my questions for you are if they asked for volunteers, and no one volunteered, why should someone who planned out in advance be penalized for planning? And how do you know someone who planned it out is more flexible? Many people with flexible plans will take a bump, I mean really if they aren't in a rush, take the freebies. Sure they potentially paid less (unless they are fully refundable, or other things), but anyway they handle it someone will be upset.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6876
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:11 am

I'm pretty sure policy at Delta is, in regards to disrupting same-day travel, an elite FFer will get protected first, then they will do it based on same-day travel disruptions (if they can get you there 2 hours later, they will do that), and last case is fare class paid. All in all, I think it's a fair situation - elites should get first priority over anyone, and then after that, the people who need to be on that flight to make connections, with fare class (highest to lowest) being the last resort. Agree completely that a higher fare should be protected vs. a $50 Priceline fare.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 4):
elites should get first priority over anyone

I totally agree with that.....I know for sure last year CO had a few delays that could have turned into possible cancellations and when I called the Elite line they told me I was protected on such and such flight.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
MD95
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:27 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Thread starter):
It seems to me that the people that purchase their ticket the closest to the departure date pay the most money and obviously NEED to be at that destination. Whereas, if someone purchased their ticket months prior, they may be a bit more flexible with their schedule and most likely would not have paid even half the price of the person that bought their ticket last minute.

Never heard of "first come first serve"? People buy tickets as early as possible not only to save money, but also to firm a seat.
dario
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 3):
why should someone who planned out in advance be penalized for planning?

For the same reason why they penalized those that bought their ticket at the last minute. Oftentimes business travellers do not have the luxury of planning their trips far in advance. The airlines know this, which is why they charge the most for last minute tickets. Thus, business travellers usually pay the most for their tickets. Therefore, AA is penalizing thier most profitable demographic. It doesn't make sense to me.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 4):
elite FFer will get protected first, then they will do it based on same-day travel disruptions (if they can get you there 2 hours later, they will do that),

They were not going to be able to confirm us until 10:45am the next day, rendering my trip useless! I am an AAdvantage member (non-elite) and one of the other passengers who got bumped stated he WAS an elite member. So, it doesn't seem that AA even takes into consideration FF membership or even status...which also doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting MD95 (Reply 6):
Never heard of "first come first serve"? People buy tickets as early as possible not only to save money, but also to firm a seat.

Yes I've heard of it. But I don't think that's the proper way to conduct business under these circumstances. Ever hear of "you get what you pay for?" Doesn't seem like I got what I paid for in this instance, now does it? So, the less you pay, the better service you receive??? Hmmmm.
 
MD95
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:27 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 8):
Yes I've heard of it. But I don't think that's the proper way to conduct business under these circumstances. Ever hear of "you get what you pay for?" Doesn't seem like I got what I paid for in this instance, now does it? So, the less you pay, the better service you receive??? Hmmmm

Im simpathetic with you and I don't mean to be personal, but I still believe the airline was correct. You shouldn't be able to buy everything because you can pay more. This is typical reasoning of many americans but is ethically wrong in the contest of living in a human society.
dario
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting MD95 (Reply 9):
Im simpathetic with you and I don't mean to be personal, but I still believe the airline was correct. You shouldn't be able to buy everything because you can pay more. This is typical reasoning of many americans but is ethically wrong in the contest of living in a human society.

Sorry, I disagree. If the airlines are going to charge and arm and a leg for last minute tickets, then that should at least guarantee one a seat on the flight they need.

So, if you are selling your car and the first person comes to you offering to pay the asking price, but then the next person says they will pay triple, you are going to sell your car to the first person? Hmmmm. Interesting logic.
 
MD95
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:27 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 10):
So, if you are selling your car and the first person comes to you offering to pay the asking price, but then the next person says they will pay triple, you are going to sell your car to the first person? Hmmmm. Interesting logic.

Yes, when I shake hand with somebody it's a deal.
dario
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6876
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:10 am

Agree 100% here - first come first serve is fair when everything is even. However, on this flight, people didn't pay the same for the flight, etc, so the first-come, first-serve argument is watered down quite a bit. Normally, an airline would rather bump the lower passengers, as now, AA has lost the higher fare from the OP, and still had to provide Involuntarily Denied Boarding compensation, which can be cold hard cash (doesn't need to be a voucher for the airline). I'd think they'd rather cut their losses and try to minimize damage to the bottom line.

As for IDBing an elite member, huge thumbs down to AA for that. Your companion should shoot off an e-mail to AA Customer Service and let them know that it is very poor business sense to IDB an elite customer on a last minute fare, when check-in times and arrival at the gate were within the published guidelines (normally 30 minutes for check-in, at the gate 15 minutes prior to departure).
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 8):

Yes I've heard of it. But I don't think that's the proper way to conduct business under these circumstances. Ever hear of "you get what you pay for?" Doesn't seem like I got what I paid for in this instance, now does it? So, the less you pay, the better service you receive??? Hmmmm.

Because people who plan ahead might have many other things scheduled and have purchased their tickets in advance for this very reason in the first place (like seeing grandma or vacation, or whatever)..

I fly every few weeks, and I book my tickets well in advance, then I schedule all my activities around the booking date.....and I'm not alone, there are thousands of others like me...

..why should someone who walks up last minute have more "rights" just because he/she shelled out money...? Fair is fair....

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 10):
So, if you are selling your car and the first person comes to you offering to pay the asking price, but then the next person says they will pay triple, you are going to sell your car to the first person? Hmmmm. Interesting logic.

If the contract is signed, yes sure, the seller has an obligation at the first price (even if its 1/3, 1/10th, 1/whatever)......and purchasing an airline ticket is a contract.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
why should someone who walks up last minute have more "rights" just because he/she shelled out money...? Fair is fair....

You "Fair is fair" argument is weak. If everything was supposed to be "fair" then why did I have to pay $1,200 for the same seat that someone paid $400 for? That's not fair. Am I entitled to a credit from AA? No, of course not.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
I fly every few weeks, and I book my tickets well in advance, then I schedule all my activities around the booking date.....and I'm not alone, there are thousands of others like me...

There may be thousands like you, but there are probably tens even hundreds of thousands of people like me who travel for business at the last minute.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 14):

You "Fair is fair" argument is weak. If everything was supposed to be "fair" then why did I have to pay $1,200 for the same seat that someone paid $400 for? That's not fair. Am I entitled to a credit from AA? No, of course

Because you are choosing last minute..that's why...AA has to make instantaneous adjustments thanks to you.

If AA knew 3 weeks in advance how many pax they are going to fly, they can have the exact plane type (ie. a 738 instead of a MadDog) fly that that particular route on that particular day...but they don't..they have very good estimates what's going to happen on a particular day, on a particular time, on a particular route, but they don't have the exact information...

Last second flyers cost extra in terms of fuel, etc adjustments....

Not to mention, even though I might purchase my ticket for a cheaper price, unless I buy a fully flexible fare (which are more expensive anyway)...AA will get a guarantee revenue from me (assuming they aren't selling a ticket at a loss)...who knows with you? Maybe you will show up one day, maybe you won't......
"Up the Irons!"
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Because you are choosing last minute..that's why...AA has to make instantaneous adjustments thanks to you.

Thanks to me and most other business travelers (whom they get the lion share of revenue from). See, what you don't understand (and what airlines do understand) is not everyone can make travel arrangements 3 weeks in advance. I know you can sit at your desk everyday and make a judgement based on your own experience, but most business travelers don't know they are going out of town 3 weeks in advance. If I get a weeks notice, I consider myself lucky.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Last second flyers cost extra in terms of fuel, etc adjustments....

(Sarcasm ON) Right, but it is still not fair that I should have to pay for those adjustments. I mean, its not my problem that last second fliers cost the airlines extra money. If the value of the seat I am sitting in is $400, it should cost $400 no matter what time of day I fly, time of year I fly, or when I buy my ticket, etc. Fair is fair, right??? (Sarcasm OFF) I can only imagine what your political beliefs are...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Maybe you will show up one day, maybe you won't......

This was my whole argument. If I'm buying my ticket the day before departure, the likelihood of a passenger not showing up is far less than someone who purchased it months prior. If I waited until the last second to purchase a seat, then I probably need to be wherever I'm going..Besides, if I don't show up, and my fare is restricted (i.e., non-refundable), then the airline is guaranteed the money I paid...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 16):
Thanks to me and most other business travelers (whom they get the lion share of revenue from). See, what you don't understand (and what airlines do understand) is not everyone can make travel arrangements 3 weeks in advance. I know you can sit at your desk everyday and make a judgement based on your own experience, but most business travelers don't know they are going out of town 3 weeks in advance. If I get a weeks notice, I consider myself lucky.

Yes I do understand...you are paying for the privilege of flying last second...which from an operational point of view, is a pain in the bum for AA, hence why they charge you more....

Fortunately, I have my own business, so I can tell myself when I need to fly... Wink

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 16):

(Sarcasm ON) Right, but it is still not fair that I should have to pay for those adjustments

I know you are being sarcastic.....but the fact of the matter is AA has to to be flexible enough to provide for last second customers, and it costs them to do so..and they pass it on to you in terms of higher walk-up fares..

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 16):
This was my whole argument. If I'm buying my ticket the day before departure, the likelihood of a passenger not showing up is far less than someone who purchased it months prior

Er...do you have stats on that to prove your point?

My point that AA gets my money right away can't be denied...I pay with my credit card at time of booking...
"Up the Irons!"
 
Delta717
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:28 am

Give me a break.

Just because you were travelling on business doesn't give you the right to complain about them bumping you off an ERJ vs. somone who paid in advance. This is what happens with most airlines.

They did offer you another flight, so AA did nothing wrong. It's the price you pay for travelling to a city that does not have a large number of flights.

As Jacobin777 said, AA was doing YOU the favor, letting you book a fare that close to a departure date. All of the business travelers I've talked to, including my father, know what happens when you travel for that reason (be it non-rev or late booking). Which is another question I ask you...if you're so concerned about the money, why didn't you just fly standby?

[Edited 2007-01-16 22:35:37]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 18):
As Jacobin777, AA was doing YOU the favor, letting you book a fare that close to a departure date.

Er.... I'm the one who books well in advance..not the one booking a fare close to the departure date... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
Delta717
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
Er.... I'm the one who books well in advance..not the one booking a fare close to the departure date...

Whoops...edited!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 20):
Whoops...edited!

Ok..now that makes sense... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18971
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:59 am

If AA didn't get you to MOB within one hour of the original scheduled arrival time, I trust you received the denied boarding compensation you are legally entitled to under AA's conditions of contract (link below, para. 5 in the table of contents).

http://www.aa.com/content/customerSe...mitment/conditionsOfCarriage.jhtml
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 18):
AA was doing YOU the favor,

Doing me a favor??? Paying them to fly on their planes is not a favor!!! If they flew me for free, then they would be doing me a favor!

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 18):
...if you're so concerned about the money, why didn't you just fly standby?

Ummm, I'm not concerned about the money. However, someone used the "fair is fair" argument for why the last to book should get bumped, which is a piss poor argument given that everything is not equal in this situation...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
Fortunately, I have my own business, so I can tell myself when I need to fly...

Unfortunately, I have clients that tell me when I need to fly. They could care less how much it costs...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
and it costs them to do so..and they pass it on to you in terms of higher walk-up fares..

A 200% markup though? That should get me something of guarantee..I'm not asking for them to bow at the hem of my robe. Just a guaranteed seat across from the lav at least...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
I pay with my credit card at time of booking...

So do most people...myself included.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
If AA didn't get you to MOB within one hour of the original scheduled arrival time, I trust you received the denied boarding compensation you are legally entitled to under AA's conditions of contract

I received nothing except a guarantee on 10:15am flight the next morning! This is good to know, though!! Thanks for the info...
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4260
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 18):
AA was doing YOU the favor, letting you book a fare that close to a departure date.

AA did him the favour of taking his money???? If booking so close to the departure date is such a problem for AA then why do they allow people to do it? Albeit at an astronomical fare too?

AA's operational problems are not the customers problem. If I paid $1200 for a short domestic flight I'd expect to be on that plane.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 7):
one of the other passengers who got bumped stated he WAS an elite member.

Denied boarding of an Elite member is simply unacceptable. Elite fliers are the majors bread and butter. Loyalty should be rewarded, and such loyalty does garner some extra privileges (well it should anyway).

In Canada you can literally buy tickets only hours before your flight, I've never heard of this practice causing operational problems.

Kris
AC YYC
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 23):
A 200% markup though? That should get me something of guarantee..I'm not asking for them to bow at the hem of my robe. Just a guaranteed seat across from the lav at least...

200% is an aribitrary number..could be anything..you come to line last, you'll have to pay more for the privilege of flying....you don't like it, you can take your business somewhere else....many people fly on B6 because of the fact their "last second" walk up fares are capped...

It all depends on one's situation and preferences...

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 23):
So do most people...myself included.

I was being facetious... Wink

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 25):
AA's operational problems are not the customers problem. If I paid $1200 for a short domestic flight I'd expect to be on that plane.



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 25):
In Canada you can literally buy tickets only hours before your flight, I've never heard of this practice causing operational problems.

Not only is it an operational issue, its a yield management issue too..

A carrier wouldn't be able to function efficiently (if at all) if everyone assumed they would pay the same basic fare the last minute...i.e.-everyone would be doing "last minute" walkups...I've done it myself..

..even LCC's charge more for last-second walk ups..granted their fares are capped, but the concept is basically the same....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Delta717
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:37 am

The net revenue on that flight when it left DFW was probably greater than the price you paid for your ticket. Honestly, in AA and most of the business world, they don't really care if they bump you off, because believe it or not, that's life. Deal with it.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:25 am

W/B issues get no worse that Freedom's JFK operation. Every night at least one (mostly more) have an issue where we either have to pull bags or pax. A full Dash-8 will not take a full load of bags ever. So word to the wise if you are travelling DL Connex by freedom DONT CHECK BAGS.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 4):
Agree completely that a higher fare should be protected

Even if they show up at the last minute, no matter who they are?

Quoting MD95 (Reply 9):
Im simpathetic with you and I don't mean to be personal, but I still believe the airline was correct

I agree 100%

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
I fly every few weeks, and I book my tickets well in advance, then I schedule all my activities around the booking date.....and I'm not alone, there are thousands of others like me...

Me to

Anyway, I can see both sides. You are a business traveller, and yes, you might have a good standing within a FF program; but, you should also understand that AA is a business and sometimes they need to make decisions that might not benefit everyone. That might be someone who is on the highest tier in a FF program or someone who has never flown before.


On the other hand, I completly understand that you don't always know when you will be traveling and AA should have done more to get you where you needed to be quicker.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:35 am

[Quoting Delta717 (Reply 27):
The net revenue on that flight when it left DFW was probably greater than the price you paid for your ticket.[/quote]

Why would any airline not care about additional revenue given the current financial state of the industry...By bumping me, they end up taking more off their bottom line, so why wouldn't they care?
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6876
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 29):

Even if they show up at the last minute, no matter who they are?

As long as they abide by the contract of carriage (minimum check-in times and being in the gate area within minimum times), they should be fine. If they miss those times (check in at 29 minutes instead of 30 minutes), then it's an issue. But if you make it on time, then you're fine.

There have been times when I've arrived at the airport 31 minutes before departure. Was it fun checking in and getting to the gate on time? No. Did I make it? Yes. I was booked on that flight about 65 minutes prior to departure, met all the requirements. No reason for me not to have that seat; my full Y fare (plus being an elite) should give me a lot of precedent over Joe Schmoe (who has no FF number) and paid $75 on his flight down to ATL if there was a case of IDB. Had I been late for either cutoff, then yes, I can't argue being IDB'd. But if I'm on time, and I'm on DL, I shouldn't be IDB'd, and if I was, I'd be demanding the station manager right away and demanding heavy compensation for straying for DL's IDB policies.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:42 am

I would definitely think AA should ask for volunteers first. Then, I don't see a problem with bumping off non-elite passengers in the order of which they booked tickets, from last to first.

As long as that is AA's policy and they consistently enforce it, I don't see the issue. After all, someone is going to have to be bumped off. You just have to pick a way to figure it out and stick with it.

AAndrew
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 33):
I would definitely think AA should ask for volunteers first. Then, I don't see a problem with bumping off non-elite passengers in the order of which they booked tickets, from last to first.

It sounds like that's exactly how the airline did it. It just sounds like this guy is your traditional disgruntled passenger who doesn't understand the industry very well, and needed to let off some steam.
Good goes around!
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:52 am

Bake a potato, eat a potato. Sell a ticket, provide the service.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 34):
traditional disgruntled passenger who doesn't understand the industry very well, and needed to let off some steam.

No, I was just asking what the logic behind the policy is and I have yet to receive an answer...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 30):
You are an idiot...

What a brilliant way to make an arugment.. sarcastic 

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 36):

No, I was just asking what the logic behind the policy is and I have yet to receive an answer...

see below for one possibility.....

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 34):
Quoting Aa757first (Reply 33):
I would definitely think AA should ask for volunteers first. Then, I don't see a problem with bumping off non-elite passengers in the order of which they booked tickets, from last to first.

It sounds like that's exactly how the airline did it. It just sounds like this guy is your traditional disgruntled passenger who doesn't understand the industry very well, and needed to let off some steam.
"Up the Irons!"
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:56 pm

So let me get this straight:

I can buy a ticket on your airline at the last minute, but I will get charged a premium rate---EVEN THOUGH those 2 seats might have gone unsold if I had not bought them.

Of course, since I bought the tickets with restrictions (still at a premium price no less), I would be CHARGED a PENALTY if I had initiated a postponement or cancellation myself. So of course, I bust my butt to make this flight when I actually might have preferred another one.

Yet a couple of hours later I show up at the airport and find that THEY NEED the seats to go unfilled after all. So I get bumped.

The passengers who weren't bumped were those who bought their tickets earlier and paid LESS for the privilege of knowing their travel schedule sooner,while traveling on a ridiculously low fare that the $2400 business traveler like me is subsidizing.

Jeez, can't see why the airline industry is so screwed up.  scratchchin 
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 8):
Ever hear of "you get what you pay for?" Doesn't seem like I got what I paid for in this instance, now does it?

Yes, it does. You answered your own question in the thread opener.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Thread starter):
we were the last to buy a ticket with restrictions.

If you had paid the full (unrestricted) fare, you would have a more secure seat. You paid for the cheapest available seat, just like all the others before you. Since the cost of the seat changes with the time before flight, you may have paid more than those before you based on the MARKET VALUE of the seat to the airline- but not based on the CLASS of reservation.

Yes, last minute travelers pay more, because the value of the seat goes up as the flight date approaches. But the matrix you want to use- cost vs. security- is false. Not only are walk-up fares higher, they are unreliable, change by the hour, and availability is NOT GUARANTEED. If you want a guaranteed seat, play by the same rules as everyone else and buy a seat in advance, or at least pay the unrestricted fare.

Bottom line, last in line gets cut. Just like boarding the subway train. Price paid is irrelevant- only fare class is relevant.

As to FF programs, if the elite member was not registered on the flight, or his elite status was not current, or he played the martyr and said he refused to board unless his whole party could board, then AA did the right thing. If he was a current elite member, checked in on time and was willing to board, and AA policy provides elite privileges (not sure they still do), and he was still forced IDB, shame on that agent.

Put yourself in the opposite situation: you got the best deal on the flight off of expedia or priceline or whatever. You reserved your seat 2 weeks in advance, and made plans for the trip. You had a secure reservation, had checked in an selected your seat assignment 24 hours in advance. You check your bags and the terminal agent tells you it's a full flight, but you've got a seat (so far). You board, sit in your seat, hear the call for volunteers and nobody offers. Then all of the sudden the gate agent walks on and says that you are cut because you paid the least for your fare and the pax behind you get the seat.

I rode on an "express" bus company in Latin America that worked like that. (not talking the school-bus commuters with chickens on top, these were Mercedes-Benz coaches with reclining seats.) You can buy a seat on any bus, up until it pulls out of the station, as long as you pay more than somebody else. That sort of chaotic business is why the commercial sector in some parts of Latin America is still in the Dark Ages. Security has to be offered with the product for any commercial enterprise to be successful- you can't buy out a contract. They have secure contracts with all pax paying unrestricted fares, and the pax with restricted fares who book early are given some measure of security. The only way that security can be overridden is by the terms of the contract- in this case, the last to book the flight. You can't always buy what you want in a legal and just society. If you want a place where money talks, go to a third world country where anything can be bought for a price. Just be careful what you wish for....
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 10):
So, if you are selling your car and the first person comes to you offering to pay the asking price, but then the next person says they will pay triple, you are going to sell your car to the first person? Hmmmm. Interesting logic.

If the contract is signed, yes sure, the seller has an obligation at the first price (even if its 1/3, 1/10th, 1/whatever)......and purchasing an airline ticket is a contract.....

That actually happened to me. I signed a contract for a car, on order. It didn't come, it didn't come... they were reselling it (repeatedly) at a higher price, and placing my order to the back of the line. They DIDN'T honor my contract, so I had the credit company take them to task while reimbursing me, and I went to another dealer.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 16):
I can only imagine what your political beliefs are...

How on earth does that enter into relevancy on this topic?? You are showing your true colors.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 30):
You are an idiot...

The longer this thread goes, the more you've lost credibility. You are pissed off and angry at the world. Rather than accept some reasonable discourse about the situation, you throw insults. I'm 3 times Delta717's age, but I agree completely:

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 27):
Deal with it.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 30):
Ahh, I'm being told how the business world runs by a high school senior...Thanks for the lesson...

Right after checking a person's age, it'd help if you also checked how long ago the joined the forum. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but 16-20 yrs + 6 yrs = 22-26 yrs. That's a damn old high school senior then.

You got bumped and you were not happy...get over it, life continues. I've been bumped before by AA using the same criteria and I wasn't plased at all but then again, sh*t happens.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:38 pm

Sounds like you should learn about fare classes. I used to always purchase the cheaper restricted fares, but all my trips now are non-restricted. In some cases, the difference is only $30-60 which is well within reason to be a lot more flexible. It has saved my butt more than once recently. Being AA Plat, I'm not too worried about being bumped but having a good fare class is additional insurance.

I highly doubt AA bumped an elite passenger. He was probably once an elite and still considers himself one.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 41):
I've been bumped before by AA using the same criteria and I wasn't plased at all but then again, sh*t happens.

The only "bumping" I hope happens to you is when your boss says you can no longer fly on expensive MASSIVES and have be be "bumped" down to PR's cheaper Raisin Sacs.. biggrin  biggrin ...don't hate me.. duck 
"Up the Irons!"
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 43):
The only "bumping" I hope happens to you is when your boss says you can no longer fly on expensive MASSIVES and have be be "bumped" down to PR's cheaper Raisin Sacs.. ...don't hate me..

Ha haa.. You seem to forget OZ has MASSIVES accross the Pacific at at the same price as on PR's crappy raisin sacs. You're in for a long year Jacobin777.  biggrin 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 44):
Ha haa.. You seem to forget OZ has MASSIVES accross the Pacific at at the same price as on PR's crappy raisin sacs. You're in for a long year Jacobin777.  biggrin 

I hate you.. biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 7440
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:40 pm

personally I prefer that it is "last to the gate". Board everyone first, then leave the ones who are last into the gate, that way it is far more fair.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting MD95 (Reply 6):
Never heard of "first come first serve"? People buy tickets as early as possible not only to save money, but also to firm a seat.

Well..that's the way it's been for 20 years at almost all airlines.

American has recently switched to "Last Booked" which is also a stupid policy because walk-up (or last minute) purchase fares have the best potential for being very expensive. There are a lot of deeply discounted walk-up fares out there now days.

But until very recently, it has for many years been "last to check-in, first to be denied".
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
If AA knew 3 weeks in advance how many pax they are going to fly, they can have the exact plane type (ie. a 738 instead of a MadDog) fly that that particular route on that particular day...but they don't..

That doesn't make much sense. Why would AA penalize someone who books 3 weeks in advance...with a 738 over an MD-80? Maybe you meant it the other way around?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 48):

That doesn't make much sense. Why would AA penalize someone who books 3 weeks in advance...with a 738 over an MD-80? Maybe you meant it the other way around?

Er..I think you misinterpreted what I said (or I just did a piss-poor job explaning myself, which is probably the case here..)...my point was it was because of the "last second shoppers" that AA can't exactly match the plane for the amount of pax......if you notice my arguments, its "pro-early bookers"... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
SkyvanMan
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:50 am

RE: Denied Boarding

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:23 pm

The thing that surprises me is that they have weights and balance issues in an erj. I've been on many erjs, nearly empty to completely full, 140s to 170s and have never witnessed passengers denied boarding because of weights and balance issues. I have witnessed seat reassignment for weights and balances issues but am surprised to hear about boarding denied with seats available on an aircraft for weights and balance issues.


Why couldn't AA take off cargo and put that on the next flight or was all the cargo area taken up by passenger baggage, and in that case why not just announce that there is too much luggage and that people who have luggage and longer stays and who will not be making connections will have their luggage sent on the next flight? I really think that AA did a poor job handling the situation. Additionally I believe that those who pay the most for their tickets should have more security but I also believe that people who book earlier should get some priority. If AA would have handled it right they would have accomodated you (what will piss a person off more: being denied boarding and not offered compensation or having their baggage sent on the next flight?).
The 3 best planes of all time: Shorts Skyvan, 330 and 360

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