ozglobal
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Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:34 am

Was just returning yesterday afternoon from my extended Christmas holidays (CDG-LHR-LGW-SZG-LGW-LHR-BKK-SYD-CBR-MEL-HBA-MEL-BNE-SYD-AKL-SCL-
GIG-MAD-CDG[trip report when I get a chance]). The GIG-MAD and MAD-CDG sectors were on Iberia. On the afternoon flight back to Paris I was seated in the front row of an MD-88 (ancient aircraft) and, in mid flight, flight attendants passed, opened the cockpit door and proceeded to enter with a teenager and mother for a tour of the flight deck!!!???? It is just me, or have IB finally lost their marbles?

[Edited 2007-01-16 22:38:00]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:38 am

isn't this regulation only valid for flights in connection with the US?
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ozglobal
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 1):
isn't this regulation only valid for flights in connection with the US?

I've recently flown AF, QF, CX, BA and LA and from memory, all have armored cockpit doors with combination locks and CCTV cameras to prevent unauthorized entry. On my MEL-BNE sector on QF, the mere insistence of an elderly man that he wanted to visit the flight deck caused the senior flight attendant to barricade the galley with a trolley as a precaution to prevent any potential move by the guy in the direction of the cockpit, which, as mentioned, was well armored. Is QF paranoid or IB lax?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
rootsair
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:47 am

I think they have lost their marbles.
When I flew MAD-GVA last november I took a pic inside the cabin and was obliged by the FA to delete it !

[Edited 2007-01-16 22:48:05]
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:48 am

Were the pax a security risk? No. Isn't it great that someone asked and got shown the flightdeck? I wish I could be so lucky. On my last IB flight BOD MAD the cockpit door was open for at least half the journey. So what? It just shows that the paranoia and fear gripping our industry isn't totally universal. I look forward to a return to the normality of flying and not sticking my liquids in stupid little plastic bags because of so-called intel from the same people who bought us WMD's in Iraq, or not as it turned out. They way things are at the moment, the terrorists have damn near succeeded anyway.

There are plenty of things I would slate IB for, but this isn't one of them.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
cloud4000
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:49 am

There is nothing wrong with visiting the cockpit when the aircraft is at the gate, but during flight operations, it should be a big no-no.
Boston, USA
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
Were the pax a security risk? No. Isn't it great that someone asked and got shown the flightdeck? I wish I could be so lucky. On my last IB flight BOD MAD the cockpit door was open for at least half the journey. So what? It just shows that the paranoia and fear gripping our industry isn't totally universal

I don't think it's a security risk at all, to be honest... you can bet the next major terrorist attack will not be using aircraft. After all the security at airports nowadays, I doubt something major is going to happen again.

QF overreacted, I would have let the old guy see the flight deck. Paranoia gone mad.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
airbazar
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 5):
There is nothing wrong with visiting the cockpit when the aircraft is at the gate, but during flight operations, it should be a big no-no.

Why? It's been done for decades. In europe cockpit visits are left primarily to the discretion of the crew. Few airlines prohibit it. I don't see what the big deal is.
 
boeingguy1
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
It just shows that the paranoia and fear gripping our industry isn't totally universal. I look forward to a return to the normality of flying and not sticking my liquids in stupid little plastic bags because of so-called intel from the same people who bought us WMD's in Iraq, or not as it turned out.

Actually the intel about the liquid came from our British freinds, not the Americans... dont be so quick to push the blame.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
longhaul67
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:08 am

This really surprises me. With the terrorist attack in Madrid in mind I would have thought IB keep cockpit doors locked and no way anyone would be allowed to visit during flight.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 8):

I WAS referring to the Brits actually. It was ex-MI6 boss Richard Dearlove who "sexed up" the issue for Blair if you recall.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
I've recently flown AF, QF, CX, BA and LA and from memory, all have armored cockpit doors with combination locks and CCTV cameras to prevent unauthorized entry.

true
but now this: the last time I flew MIA-CDG with AF, I was on the 744 upper deck as pax and all of the sudden, the captain came out of the cockpit (we were cruising already) to solve a dispute between FAs.
( the argument was about defining turns to go to crew rest during night flight...I know I spent 1/2 of the flight chatting with FAs  Smile )
now imagine I am a nasty terrorist and take the opportunity of this door opening in front of me to break their neck with a bottle of champagne?

ok, I nevertheless admit there was this mountain of a guy seating just in front of cockpit door as a sky marshall
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flydreamliner
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
Were the pax a security risk? No. Isn't it great that someone asked and got shown the flightdeck? I wish I could be so lucky. On my last IB flight BOD MAD the cockpit door was open for at least half the journey. So what? It just shows that the paranoia and fear gripping our industry isn't totally universal. I look forward to a return to the normality of flying and not sticking my liquids in stupid little plastic bags because of so-called intel from the same people who bought us WMD's in Iraq, or not as it turned out. They way things are at the moment, the terrorists have damn near succeeded anyway.

There are plenty of things I would slate IB for, but this isn't one of them.

Terrorists have succeeded how? Aviation continues to go on as it has in the past, security has tightened, but life goes on. Because of one intelligence failure, we should discard all intelligence? Maybe you should think of the many instances where intelligence has saved countless lives.

Those people who make you put the liquids in clear plastic bags, and their intelligence, they stopped a terrorist attack in london a few months ago that very well could have killed hundreds to thousands of airline passengers. When someone hijacks a plane full of innocent people by taking control of the cockpit and crashes it into a building full of more innocent people, and thousands die in your country, talk to me about opening the cockpit door midflight.

The armored cockpit doors and limited cockpit access have gone in throughout aviation as a precaution. There is no reason anyone needs to visit the cockpit during flight. They can visit on the ground before or after landing with no issues.

In this case, the risks outweigh the rewrards. Visiting the cockpit is very cool, but there is just too much to risk. not worth it.

Boo to Iberia for carelessness
Yay to Qantas for exercising all due caution.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
airbazar
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
In this case, the risks outweigh the rewrards. Visiting the cockpit is very cool, but there is just too much to risk. not worth it.

Somehow I don't think a terrorist would allow the success or failure of a possible attack, dependent on the chance that a captain would allow him/her to visit the cockpit. Tell me, how many terrorists have used a request to visit the cockpit as a way to perform a terrorist act? Lets worry about real dangers and stop the paranoia about perceived dangers.
 
osiris30
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:47 am

Iberia hasn't gone mad. The rest of the world has. How naïve are you folks that you think locking the cockpit door is effective?

Letting kids and pax visit the cockpit has gone on for as long as I can remember without incident. I could easily destroyer an airliner or kill everyone onboard with today's "security". If you think you are somehow much safer you're just deluding yourself.

If you want proof just look at our Russian spy friend who is dead and aircraft contaminated with radio active material that wasn't detected (and cannot be detected at all if packaged correctly).

If someone wants to blow up your plane, shoot you in the head or urinate in your coffee they will do so. This "security" is a joke. But what's worse is how manu sheeple buy into it. Its disgusting! Can't you people think freely anymore? What a sad sad state the world is in these days.

Poverty runs rampant, education is failing and people still get upset about a cockpit visit. Talk about priorities in the wrong place.

You want to fight terrorism?? Use a truly effective mechanism: education. Educate the world, work to irradicate poverty, THEN terrorism will go away. All these bandaid fixes get us nowhere.

There are lots of simple ways to get around today's security. Just stop and try it (mentally LOL). You'll see you are no safer from a determined terrorist than you were in 1997. All you have is more grief, more delays and more costs. Sure the door is armored, but you could easily smuggle say the plague onto a plane and blamo... You're all dead.

Unless you plan a strip search (with body cavity search and xray) and 2 week quarantine before you fly there is always going to be a way to kill a plane full of people.

And before someone jumps up and down and screams that I'm giving the terrorists ideas, get over it! If you don't think they can come up with this on their own you are an idiot.

The fact that you all think about terrorists everytime the door opens just proves they are impacting you life and you are afraid... And that's their goal. So they have won! LIVE YOUR LIFE ALREADY!
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
RedChili
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:48 am

As far as I know, zero (0) terrorist attacks have so far happened as a result of cockpit visits. If a terrorist(s) would want to enter the cockpit, it's much more likely that he/they would try to smash a bottle on the head of the flight attendants and sky marshals at any time the cockpit door would be open.

And all of you also realize that if a guy looking like Mohammed Atta would ask for a cockpit visit, that Iberia would turn him down.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
to prevent unauthorized entry

The key is unauthorized. If the captain says yes, then it is authorized.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Is QF paranoid or IB lax?

In your example, when an elderly man insisted, QF probably did the right thing by denying him the request.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
Those people who make you put the liquids in clear plastic bags, and their intelligence, they stopped a terrorist attack in london a few months ago that very well could have killed hundreds to thousands of airline passengers.

The intelligence people who stopped the attack, and the bureaucrats who force us to put liquids into plastic bags, are not the same people.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
When someone hijacks a plane full of innocent people by taking control of the cockpit and crashes it into a building full of more innocent people, and thousands die in your country, talk to me about opening the cockpit door midflight

I can talk to you about opening cockpit doors midflight today. Guess what? it's being done every day on every single airline on long flights. For the sake of the safety of the flight, the flight crew needs food during the flight, access to the bathroom, the possibility of switching pilots on long flights, etc. So the cockpit doors will be opened a lot of times anyway, no matter if you allow passengers to visit the flight deck or not.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
osiris30
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:00 am

@flydreamliner:

Ok man I was debating posting this (partly because its a pain in the rear on my cell, partial because its a touchy issue) but here goes:

On behalf of those people who died on 9/11 who were NOT American I'm disgusted by your statements regarding your right as an American to judge how airline safety should be handled.

NEWS FLASH: non-Americans died too, and many countries in the world have just as much right to talk about flight safety as American's do. To ignore this and set up 9/11 as an American only tragedy is to spit on the graves of all those who died on 9/11.

Sorry but that's how I feel.
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phatty3374
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
I can talk to you about opening cockpit doors midflight today. Guess what? it's being done every day on every single airline on long flights. For the sake of the safety of the flight, the flight crew needs food during the flight, access to the bathroom, the possibility of switching pilots on long flights, etc. So the cockpit doors will be opened a lot of times anyway, no matter if you allow passengers to visit the flight deck or not.

This is true, but I believe that there are certain procedures for occurences when the cockpit door is open. If food is being delivered to the Captain/FO, it is a relatively quick process. If one of them has to go to the bathroom, then either a FA takes the absent pilot's seat, or the FA stands in front of the door. Again, I don't know if this is S.O.P., but I've seen it on United, Delta, US Airways, Air France, and even Ryanair (STN-CIA) flights.

That said, I agree with most of what Osiris says about the measures currently being taken. If anyone wanted to, they probably could blow up an airliner. At this point, it is really up to the intelligence agencies to stop these plots before they happen, not the security officers at the terminals. Although they are a vital link in the whole airport scheme and deserve respect for what they do, there are, and always will be loopholes through airport security.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
You want to fight terrorism?? Use a truly effective mechanism: education. Educate the world, work to irradicate poverty, THEN terrorism will go away. All these bandaid fixes get us nowhere.

Amen! My post should probably be in a political forum, but I just want to say that our government's recent actions are not helping the prospect of future generations being able to visit the cockpit without restriction! There is a huge rift in communication and understanding between Americans and a small (but growing) sect of radical Islam, and education ON BOTH SIDES is necessary to stop these terrorist sentiments. As you said, these "bandaid fixes" are not helping anyone.

Regards,

TG
 
mkirch72
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 16):
@flydreamliner:

Ok man I was debating posting this (partly because its a pain in the rear on my cell, partial because its a touchy issue) but here goes:

On behalf of those people who died on 9/11 who were NOT American I'm disgusted by your statements regarding your right as an American to judge how airline safety should be handled.

Osiris30:

I just reread flydreamliner's posting and maybe I'm missing something. Where are you seeing him say that he has a right as an American to judge how airline safety should be handled?

I'm not trying to enflame the issue - I just didn't read that in his post. Can you clarify what you mean? And if he did not state this, are you infering that, as an American, he does NOT have a right to give his opinion on airline safety? Isn't this the topic of the discussion?
 
JJJ
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
Why? It's been done for decades. In europe cockpit visits are left primarily to the discretion of the crew. Few airlines prohibit it. I don't see what the big deal is.

Correct. FAs often show the cabin to kids who seem to be afraid of flying, or maybe the woman and kid were relatives of one of the FAs or the teenager told someone on board that he wanted to be a pilot and the airline gave him an unforgettable experience.

I don't understand the fuss about it.
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
I've recently flown AF, QF, CX, BA and LA and from memory, all have armored cockpit doors with combination locks and CCTV cameras to prevent unauthorized entry. On my MEL-BNE sector on QF, the mere insistence of an elderly man that he wanted to visit the flight deck caused the senior flight attendant to barricade the galley with a trolley as a precaution to prevent any potential move by the guy in the direction of the cockpit, which, as mentioned, was well armored. Is QF paranoid or IB lax?

yes QF have armored cockpit doors with combination locks (its funny how all airplanes of the same airline have the same lock #, so if you watch the F/A's carfully, as I have done, you can figure out the code) and CCTV cameras... but at the same time they leave the door open before take off whilest the passengars are coming in. The F/A's haven't had a problem with me going up there, granted this was last June and i was 14 at the time, and it was after the flight.
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
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OA260
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:02 pm

UA do that also with the food cart !! When the pilot goes to the jacks or they want a drink two male F/A's block the cabin/galley with a food cart and stand in front of it whilst the F/A opens the door!!!!
 
osiris30
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:07 pm

Mkirch72:

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 18):
just reread flydreamliner's posting and maybe I'm missing something. Where are you seeing him say that he has a right as an American to judge how airline safety should be handled?

Sure:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
When someone hijacks a plane full of innocent people by taking control of the cockpit and crashes it into a building full of more innocent people, and thousands die in your country, talk to me about opening the cockpit door midflight.

Note the reference to "in your country"
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Aisak
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
This really surprises me. With the terrorist attack in Madrid in mind I would have thought IB keep cockpit doors locked and no way anyone would be allowed to visit during flight.

well... with the terrorist attack in Madrid in mind this really doesn't matter.

So the Mr Passenger has to take off his clothes, he can't travel with contac-lenses liquid bigger than 100 ml. He can't even board a can of coke unless he opens it and tastes it (depends on the security guy's mood) and the Mr Terrorist can park a van with 500 kg of explosives and blow it up. "Just" two people died only because they called to warn about the bomb.

Now what? Should we ban cars capable of carrying more than 100 ml? Should we drive naked when entering a public parking? We could do that so the terrorists won't win.

You now can imagine how insignificant that door should be if one can blow up an entire parking building wearing his shoes, with a bottle of whatever bigger than 100 ml and with that cookpit door shut
 
Asturias
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:33 pm

I don't see a problem here. If the captain authorized a cockpit visit, then that's his decision. Apparently it was safe and indicated by history it is safe.

Unauthorized 'visits' to the cockpit can be dangerous. It's not the same thing.

Very nice of that Iberia captain, I think.

cheers

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
FCAFLYBOY
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
So what? It just shows that the paranoia and fear gripping our industry isn't totally universal. I look forward to a return to the normality of flying and not sticking my liquids in stupid little plastic bags because of so-called intel from the same people who bought us WMD's in Iraq, or not as it turned out. They way things are at the moment, the terrorists have damn near succeeded anyway.

There are plenty of things I would slate IB for, but this isn't one of them.

Respect! well said!  Wink
 
miamix707
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 3):
I think they have lost their marbles.
When I flew MAD-GVA last november I took a pic inside the cabin and was obliged by the FA to delete it !

Now that right there is losing their marbles! (not to mention ridiculous). I rarely agree with you but I feel you on this one!

Now some flight attendants even tell you that photography through the windows isn't allowed! So what? What good do these prohibitions bring? ZERO.

Paranoia has won over common sense.

Don't forget, we could have caught these idiots of 9/11 way before they boarded those planes but we didn't, ironically to protect "freedom" because there weren't enough "reasons" to detain them  sarcastic 
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Is QF paranoid or IB lax?

= In this instance, QF is certainly paranoid  Smile.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 3):
When I flew MAD-GVA last november I took a pic inside the cabin and was obliged by the FA to delete it !

= Maybe they were just afraid of that people would find out that the rumours of poor service on IB is really true  Wink.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
And all of you also realize that if a guy looking like Mohammed Atta would ask for a cockpit visit, that Iberia would turn him down.



Quoting JJJ (Reply 19):
I don't understand the fuss about it.

= I think this in itself presents a conundrum. What if the passenger onboard was a regular 15yr old guy from Iran who was as equally interested to see the cockpit? If IB would have turned him down, then there is an inherent problem IMO.

If there is a rule, EVERYONE should follow it. IB is out of line IF it went beyond regulation.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
flyorski
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The fact that you all think about terrorists everytime the door opens just proves they are impacting you life and you are afraid... And that's their goal. So they have won! LIVE YOUR LIFE ALREADY

That is a little too harsh, but you do have a point

When I first saw this thread, my first thought was; "IB had any marbles?",  Big grin
but I guess that really does not apply.......
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
In this case, the risks outweigh the rewrards. Visiting the cockpit is very cool, but there is just too much to risk. not worth it.

Somehow I don't think a terrorist would allow the success or failure of a possible attack, dependent on the chance that a captain would allow him/her to visit the cockpit. Tell me, how many terrorists have used a request to visit the cockpit as a way to perform a terrorist act? Lets worry about real dangers and stop the paranoia about perceived dangers.

I realize a lot of security measures have become what any reasonable person would consider paranoid, but unfortunately, I believe that's how they have to be. The people implementing security have to think of absolutely every possibility, because the terrorists only have to find one hole in the security to exploit to create a tragedy. While I take your point that no one has ever taken control of an airplane via cockpit visit, they easily could. No one had ever used a 767 as a guided missile before september 11th either. No one had tried to fill contact solution bottles with nitroglycerin and blow up an airplane, and no one had tried to drive an inflateable boat full of explosives into the side of a destroyer before someone did it, and killed people. They never do the same thing twice, they always find a new method, and there is no way to sure what form the next attack will take, so security has to be prepared for most anything. While I take your point that for certain, this can go too far, visits to the cockpit in flight are simply unnecessary, and constitute a risk. There is no risk to visiting on the ground either before or after the flight.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 16):
Ok man I was debating posting this (partly because its a pain in the rear on my cell, partial because its a touchy issue) but here goes:

On behalf of those people who died on 9/11 who were NOT American I'm disgusted by your statements regarding your right as an American to judge how airline safety should be handled.

NEWS FLASH: non-Americans died too, and many countries in the world have just as much right to talk about flight safety as American's do. To ignore this and set up 9/11 as an American only tragedy is to spit on the graves of all those who died on 9/11.

Sorry but that's how I feel.

I don't believe I ever said anything to take away from the great loss of the people of all nations who died on september 11, or the pain of their loved ones, but that was an attack on the united states, in the united states, and it was the deadliest terrorist attack, and deadliest single event in aviation history.

i knew people who died on september 11, a good number of people. at that time, I lived in a small town that was a suburb of new york and philadelphia. one of the pilots who died on 9/11 lived in that same town with me, and i knew him too. i had to watch more than a few people close and dear to me go through the hell of losing their parents or siblings that way, and i feel, believe me, i feel for anyone, no matter where on earth they are, who had to go through that too. where i lived, life stopped. the point i was trying to make was this - until something like this happens close to home, it's easy not take aviation security as seriously, but if people YOU KNEW, lots of them, lost their lives, and life in your country came to a screatching halt, you would be more inclined to accept more rigorous security. i'm not taking away from the loss of anyone else, but the simple fact remains, the attackers of 9/11 were targetting the united states, and if given the opportunity, would very likely do it again. just like security on the subway is heightened in england, on trains in spain and india, on busses in israel, and in a number of different ways all over the world, the united states learned the hardest possible way about aviation security, and now, maybe barring israel, we probably have the most extreme aviation safety laws anywhere. what i was trying to say was, while 9/11 may have touched people from many different nations, until it happens close to home, it is easy to not take aviation security as easily. while 9/11 may have killed people all over the world, it was targeted at america, and americans knew this. Our life stopped. For years, Americans were afraid to fly at all, the number of people flying in this country is just now returning to where it was before 9/11. Our sense of safety was destroyed, and MANY americans knew something directly impacted by this tragedy. so while i agree, it did touch people all over the world, it hit America harder. that isn't insensitive, it's the truth. more americans died, it happened here, it was targeted at us, and our sense of safety and security where we lived, our ability to go on leading our lives as we had got shaken, and many of us lost someone we loved, or had someone we loved lose someone close to them. For years after 9/11, americans were afraid to go to tourist attractions of any sort, for fear they would be the next target of terror. Americans don't have some great right to judge, but we learned first hand, on a scale never before seen, the cost of aviation security not being good enough, and so it is taken very seriously here.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
airtran717
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:56 am

On the ground, and at the gate, anyone who wishes to visit the cockpit during boarding or deplaning may do so. Once the cockpit door is shut prior to pushback, only crew may enter the cockpit. No passengers may enter that cockpit, for any reason, until we arrive at the gate. The ONLY variance to this is charter operations. That's FAR's for US carriers.
 
JJJ
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 27):
= I think this in itself presents a conundrum. What if the passenger onboard was a regular 15yr old guy from Iran who was as equally interested to see the cockpit? If IB would have turned him down, then there is an inherent problem IMO.

If there is a rule, EVERYONE should follow it. IB is out of line IF it went beyond regulation.

The rule is whatever the pilot says. He is supposed to take a coherent and well-informed decission.

I've seen kids visiting the pilot's cabin often and in several carriers, so I'd say it works OK like this.
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 1):
isn't this regulation only valid for flights in connection with the US?

I'm sure that's a fact, but it's an idiotic one. Terrorism is a problem everywhere and passengers should be kept out of the cockpits of every airline around the globe.
 
osiris30
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 29):
i knew people who died on september 11, a good number of people. at that time, I lived in a small town that was a suburb of new york and philadelphia.

I live in Canada and know a couple of folks in the armed forces (one quite personally) who were killed by friendly fire incidents involving a US Aircraft (a pretty bad case as well I might add). We all know people who have died in traggic circumstances. I'm not taking anything away from anyone who died on 9/11. Your statements whether intended as such or not, came across as extremely 'selfish' (for lack of a better word).

This thread is about an Iberian flight not going anywhere near the United States. Yet you complained about them allowing the cockpit visit. As a reason you used what happened in the US as an example, and then proceeded to get indignant with your comments.

I'm truly sorry for everyone who lost someone on 9/11. It was a horrible day. However, just because YOUR sense of security was impacted by the events of that day doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to suffer and give up on their simple pleasures in life (like visiting a cockpit or say not having to strip naked to board a plane). I believe one of your founding fathers made a great statement to the effect of 'those who give up freedom for security...'. Those are very wise words.

I've said before if you want to stop terrorism, cockpit vists and armored doors aren't going to do it. You need to educate the world and stop making enemies, help the poor, etc. The actions of the US Governments over the last 20-30 years have not helped reduce terrorism in any way... it's just provided more fodder for their recruiters.

Rather than pushing for over the top paranoia at airports and on airliners, push your government to effect meaningful change in their foreign policy. Embrace some of the countries you have pushed away. Remember the old saying: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. I'll tell you this much, no one is going to kill themselves just 'because'. They have to feel there is some reason, so make it harder and harder to find that reason...

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 29):
Our life stopped. For years, Americans were afraid to fly at all, the number of people flying in this country is just now returning to where it was before 9/11. Our sense of safety was destroyed, and MANY americans knew something directly impacted by this tragedy.

Dude welcome to life for a Palestinian, or a Protestant in Ireland, or ... I could go on and on. Welcome to what the REST of the world is dealing with daily. The world was dealing with that long before we all had to lock ourselves up in our closets for fear of bad guys. People were blowing up everything in sight in Ireland and we didn't need to lock cockpit doors.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
rmcf
Posts: 197
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
with a teenager and mother

Maybe they were the captains family or friends (and I think this is the case). The captain authorized this visit at his own risk, I don't think there is a problem with this.
And definately IB has not lost their marbles by doing so...
We are becoming a little bit suspicious in this times...
bye! rmcf
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 29):
Our life stopped. For years, Americans were afraid to fly at all, the number of people flying in this country is just now returning to where it was before 9/11. Our sense of safety was destroyed, and MANY americans knew something directly impacted by this tragedy.

Dude welcome to life for a Palestinian, or a Protestant in Ireland, or ... I could go on and on. Welcome to what the REST of the world is dealing with daily. The world was dealing with that long before we all had to lock ourselves up in our closets for fear of bad guys. People were blowing up everything in sight in Ireland and we didn't need to lock cockpit doors.

I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. This discussion is going nowhere positive.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
jfk777
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:15 am

Wouldn't surprise me Iberia did it. The Spanish speaking world has a more laid back attitude about these things. I surprised the Basque serparatist haven't taken a Iberia A340 and blown it up with 250 people gone.
 
777236ER
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
How naïve are you folks that you think locking the cockpit door is effective?

9/11 wouldn't have happened with locked cockpit doors.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
osiris30
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 35):
I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. This discussion is going nowhere positive.

My point was merely this: If you stop and think about it, what happened on 9/11, while incredibly traggic, is no different than what many other places in the world have been dealing with since before we were flying planes. It's only because it happened to 'you' that you noticed it.

9/11 didn't drastically change the dynamics of the geopolitical structure. There were bad guys long before 9/11 and you just didn't know of them well enough to care about your doors on planes, and it only ever came into play that one time.

I'm not trying to downplay the loss that people felt as a result of 9/11. I am however, just trying to put some perspective on it that seems to have been lost with the media attention and paranoia. I don't want you to take this as me saying I don't appreciate your loss (as a person or a nation). I'm merely pointing out that it's been going on for a long time all over the world and before it happened to America is was 'someone else's problem'.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
smokescreen
Posts: 217
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 29):
and no one had tried to drive an inflateable boat full of explosives into the side of a destroyer before someone did it, and killed people.

Kind of OT, but folks have been using this tactic in naval warfare ever since the invention of explosives, and probably before too using just plain ol' fire.

Also, calling the so-called liquid bomb scare a "plan" is giving far too much credit to the people behind it. I have a "plan" to build a house on the moon, which has just as much chance of succeeding as the liquid bomb idea, even if those idiots had been left alone by the authorities.
 
BALAX
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:31 am

Maybe it was prearranged, so not a problem for the pilots.
 
Asturias
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 36):
Wouldn't surprise me Iberia did it. The Spanish speaking world has a more laid back attitude about these things. I surprised the Basque serparatist haven't taken a Iberia A340 and blown it up with 250 people gone.

Because you're an idiot and because that would be the permanent end of ETA.

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 38):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 35):
I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. This discussion is going nowhere positive.

My point was merely this: If you stop and think about it, what happened on 9/11, while incredibly traggic, is no different than what many other places in the world have been dealing with since before we were flying planes. It's only because it happened to 'you' that you noticed it.

9/11 didn't drastically change the dynamics of the geopolitical structure. There were bad guys long before 9/11 and you just didn't know of them well enough to care about your doors on planes, and it only ever came into play that one time.

I'm not trying to downplay the loss that people felt as a result of 9/11. I am however, just trying to put some perspective on it that seems to have been lost with the media attention and paranoia. I don't want you to take this as me saying I don't appreciate your loss (as a person or a nation). I'm merely pointing out that it's been going on for a long time all over the world and before it happened to America is was 'someone else's problem'.

9/11 was an attack on a very large scale, and it highlighted security weaknesses, and did introduce terror in a much more personal way to the american public. again however, the scale of the attacks, and their impact, nationally, and internationally, were unparalleled. The global economy felt the ripple effect of 9/11, especially in the aviation sector. While terror has happened for some time around the world, something like 9/11, as terrible and large as 9/11, had not really happened before. I'd also point out that before 9/11, America did not ignore terrorism, just because it was not the central issue it is today.

But like I said, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
rikkus67
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 38):
I am however, just trying to put some perspective on it that seems to have been lost with the media attention and paranoia. I don't want you to take this as me saying I don't appreciate your loss (as a person or a nation). I'm merely pointing out that it's been going on for a long time all over the world and before it happened to America is was 'someone else's problem'.

Osiris.... welcome to my respected users list.

Rik, Canada (half of my relatives are US citizens...)
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
howard500
Posts: 76
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:50 am

Gentleman,

For havens sake….a kid that visits the cockpit with dad…. thanks god there are still crews out there that allow things like these to take place!!! Most other crews have been beaten into fear of loosing their jobs if they exercise common sense! I for one have been many times in the cockpit as a kid and I probably owe those crews part of the incentive, passion and desire I have to be a pilot!

Never in modern history have we seen paranoia like the one we have to experience nowadays… (well, maybe during the cold war) it’s all an absolute load of garbage!!! Of course there is a real terrorist threat and of course a bullet proof door is a welcomed safety measure. The problem comes when the public believes the politician and common sense and rational thought is abandoned and replaced with irrationality and exaggeration, rules and regulations. Politicians can talk all they want, the truth is that they are the ultimate cause of most modern day problems by being double faced bastards with foreign and national policies…. one day they are your allies the next day they throw you into a dark alley and shoot you in the back. The next election and too much power is all that matters to them and there lies the ultimate fallacy of democracy, yet the paradox is that democracy is the best system we have yet discovered to govern ourselves. Funny. I wonder what will happen the day we realize politicians are our own worst enemy.

In any case…. Kid in the cockpit…. Bravo! Common sense….. Bravo! (Note: this does not mean let the kid fly the plane or let a doggy looking guy into the cockpit)…. Noooo….. How to make the choice? Common sense!!! Not a law or directive….. Mere common sense. Made my point I hope!

Regards,

Howard500

[Edited 2007-01-17 20:55:40]

[Edited 2007-01-17 20:59:01]
advice is a form of nostalgia
 
User avatar
OA260
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
Dude welcome to life for a Palestinian, or a Protestant in Ireland



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
People were blowing up everything in sight in Ireland

Err sorry mate your comments about the situation in Ireland are not true and both catholics and protestants suffered equally and killed equally. Stick to something you know about please .
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 37):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
How naïve are you folks that you think locking the cockpit door is effective?

9/11 wouldn't have happened with locked cockpit doors.

Guys... cockpit doors have always been locked. Always. But it's the policies and procedures... and cockpit keys that were issued to the crew that caused 9/11. At least in as much as this line of thought is headed. That's why now there are coded locks on the doors and they are to be used only in emergencies... all access to cockpits must now be granted by the pilots and their little switch inside the safe confines of the cockpit. There are other safety measures in place, but they are obviously not open for public discussion.
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 24):
I don't see a problem here. If the captain authorized a cockpit visit, then that's his decision. Apparently it was safe and indicated by history it is safe.

Unauthorized 'visits' to the cockpit can be dangerous. It's not the same thing.

Very nice of that Iberia captain, I think.

cheers

Asturias

I agree with you 100%

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 36):
Wouldn't surprise me Iberia did it. The Spanish speaking world has a more laid back attitude about these things. I surprised the Basque serparatist haven't taken a Iberia A340 and blown it up with 250 people gone.

Knobhead! Crawl back under your rock where you belong!

Last summer I flew LTN-AMS on easyJet in the jumpseat, does this mean easyJet have lost their marbles too?

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
ozglobal
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Rmcf (Reply 34):
Maybe they were the captains family or friends (and I think this is the case).

Captain was Caucasian, teenager was black.... Could be adopted I guess...?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
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RE: Have IB Finally Lost Their Marbles?!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:37 am

@oa260:

My statements about the Protestant in Ireland were meant as a non-all-inclusive thing (thus the I could go on and on.). I'm well aware of the horror that was ongoing in Ireland. Don't assume that because I cited one side only I was limiting my statements to mean them only (I could have just as easily said Catholic or Israeli).

If you want me to run a full list of terrorist attrocities I could go on for longer than any of you would read LOL. Please don't take my statements as anything more than examples. Oppression and terror are unfortunately prevalent over much of the world  Sad

Anyway back on the topic:

I don't see an issue with pilots using discretion and allowing kids to the cockpit. As a kid I loved it. Now my kids don't get that privledge. That is sad. That, coupled with walking alongside a 747 (sans jet bridge) at a very young age are why I love aviation.

If simply not allowing folks in the cockpit solved the issue I wouldn't care. But it doesn't. And anyone with sufficient motivation could get the access codes, so the whole point is totally irrelevant. (And if you don't think those codes could be secured you need to go read about much more sensitive data that goes missing with freightening regularity)
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)