tvnewsguy08
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Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:31 am

look for info on wkyt.com

I just gleaned this from a live shot. Note, I still don't know which pilot said what:

Pilot: Thrust Set
Pilot: That is weird, No Lights
Pilot: Yeah
Pilot: 100 Knots
Pilot: Check
Pilot: vee one
Pilot: Rotate
Pilot: Whoa!
Sound of Impact at 6:06:33

FAA is supposed to release Tower conversations on faa.gov at noon.
 
tvnewsguy08
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:52 am

Some more random ressages:

NTSB Releases Report

RECORDING FROM COCKPIT



5:44 a.m. (inter-cockpit)

“I guess, when I’m, I’m deciding on making a major decision. If it doesn’t feel right in my gut or if I don’t have a little voice, if it starts talking to me; and I’m like, I need to reevaluate.”



5:55 a.m. (on the PA)

“Ladies and gentlemen from the flight deck, [I would] like to take this time to welcome you also onboard Comair flight 5191, direct flight to Atlanta. We will be cruising at 27,000 feet this morning. And once we do get in the air, it looks like one hour and seven minutes en route.



“Hopefully, you can catch a nap going into Atlanta. It’s our pleasure having you all on board.”





6:00 am. (inter-cockpit)

“Both kids were sick, well, they all got colds. It was an interesting dinner last night.”



6:04 a.m. (on the PA)

“And, folks, one time from the flight deck, we would like to welcome you on board. We will be underway momentarily. Sit back, relax and enjoy the flight. Kelly, when you have a chance, please prepare the cabin.”
 
2H4
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:59 am



So what's the deal? News sources are all reporting the transcript has been released, yet they're only providing the same few lines of text. Where's the complete transcript?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
avconsultant
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
News sources are all reporting the transcript has been released, yet they're only providing the same few lines of text.

This is crap the media pulls. "For the rest of the story tune in tonight at 6!!"

They'll probably release the details after the first news cast.
 
73G
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:52 am

See new thread for transcripts

[Edited 2007-01-17 20:53:43]
 
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litz
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:00 am

According to the NTSB press release on the release of the documentation, it will be available via CD-ROM to news media ONLY ... no mention whatsoever of availability on the NTSB website ...

So all we get is what the news media bothers to quote and share.  Sad

- litz
 
avconsultant
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting 73G (Reply 4):
See new thread for transcripts

Same info as this thread. The CNN link is just as imformative.
 
73G
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 6):
Same info as this thread. The CNN link is just as imformative.

No, the CNN thread summarizes the transcript and offers bits and pieces. The actual transcript itself allows one to read from start to finish to create a full picture of what happened.

Quoting Litz (Reply 5):
According to the NTSB press release on the release of the documentation, it will be available via CD-ROM to news media ONLY ... no mention whatsoever of availability on the NTSB website ...

So all we get is what the news media bothers to quote and share.

Just go to kentucky.com. There are several links to all of the reports released today by the NTSB...in their entirity.
 
 
avconsultant
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting 73G (Reply 7):
No, the CNN thread summarizes the transcript and offers bits and pieces. The actual transcript itself allows one to read from start to finish to create a full picture of what happened

My apologizes - I just saw your new thread.
 
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litz
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:29 am

You know ...

I think I clearly saw them confirm their runway heading in that transcript ...

this was discussed ad-nauseum back when the accident occurred : how could they not realize they were lined up wrong, due to the FMS (which would be pointing a big red line AWAY from directly ahead) unless they'd also programmed the wrong runway into the FMS itself ...

Still many questions not answered ...

- litz
 
bucky707
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 10):
how could they not realize they were lined up wrong, due to the FMS (which would be pointing a big red line AWAY from directly ahead)

The FMS will not always have a magenta line going out at runway heading. In ATL for example, all of the RNAV departures have the first fix offset from runway heading, so your magenta line will go from the end of the runway to that first fix. In fact I would say more often than not, your first course, in the FMS at least, is not on the runway heading.
 
N766UA
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:39 am

Thanks for that link.

Looks to me like they had no idea until literally the last second. A few things struck me as worth noting:

#1 the pilots commented on how "lights are out all over the place," regarding runway 8/26 and the REILs. This tells me they already had it in their minds that the lighting would be abnormal.

#2 the local controller did not say the runway number in his takeoff clearance, nor did the crew in their readback.

#3 despite commenting "this is weird, no lights" there was no further acknowledgment or query to the tower and the takeoff was continued as normal.
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casinterest
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:46 am

Everything about this crash is just tragic, the cvr makes it even more so.


God rest their souls, and hopefully it never happens like this again.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
gregarious119
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
#3 despite commenting "this is weird, no lights" there was no further acknowledgment or query to the tower and the takeoff was continued as normal.

From what I understand, they were already rolling at 115 mph (100 knots) by the time they commented on the lights. Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.

Sad tragedy....
 
bucky707
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14):
Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.

the runways at LEX are very "crowned".....the middle is higher than either end of both runways. Even on a clear day in full sunlight, when you line up for takeoff you cannot see the other end of the runway. It's likely they did not realize a thing until too late.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
A few things struck me as worth noting:

#1 the pilots commented on how "lights are out all over the place," regarding runway 8/26 and the REILs. This tells me they already had it in their minds that the lighting would be abnormal.

Actually, the comment about lights being out relates to when the F/O "came in the other night". He's saying that when he came in, "it was, like, lights were out all over the place." I noticed that, as well, as one of the big questions is why they didn't think they were on the wrong runway with the runway that they were on not being lit and the one that they weren't on being lit. It appears that, as you note, they expected certain lights to be out. However, for an entire runway to be unlit, particularly when there is no ATIS or other advisory to that effect, is something that they should at least notice or inquire about. Why not ask the Tower if he could turn on/turn up the lights? If they had done so, the problem would have been discovered. In short, you're right. They anticipated some lighting issues and thus didn't question it when the runway they lined up on had none. Sloppy. Stupid. Deadly.

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14):
they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.

They *commented* on how wierd the effect of no lights was as they were rolling, but it's not as if that was the first point at which they noticed it. It was totally evident that there were no lights on the runway even before they started their takeoff roll. This now makes sense: he wasn't suddenly saying, "Hey, wait a minute. There are no lights!" as if he is surprised. Instead, he is treating the absence of lighting as creating an unusual effect, but is assuming that there is no significance to it, other than that this airport is under construction and thus has lights out all over the place. That's why the captain just responds, "yeah."

I feel so bad for the Airtran pilot. If they had had him in the jumpseat rather than in the back, he would know, as a regular commuter, that they weren't in the right place. Instead, he got to watch them go down the wrong runway from his seat in the back.
 
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litz
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14):
Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.

The sad thing is, they were configured for normal takeoff power, for the longer runway.

Several people "armchair piloted" simulations after the crash, using both normal settings, and max thrust ... they crashed into the trees every single time using normal settings, and could just barely clear using max thrust. I think the calculations were they were 10-15knots below the speed needed for clearance.

So it was possible to use that runway for a successful takeoff ... but you almost had to treat it like launching off an aircraft carrier to do so.

Very sad, very tragic ... I'm sure (or at least I hope) pilots are double checking themselves before hitting the gas as a result ...

We have a saying in railroading : think twice, act once.

(RR equipment is very unforgiving, and you'll always bend first)

- litz
 
KarlB737
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:04 am

From The FAA Site:

FAA - Comair 5191 Accident Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tapes

Link to the Audio is on this page:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/comair_tapes/

Link to the Full Transcript:

The Full Transcript - PDF File:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...r_tapes/media/tower_transcript.pdf
 
ikramerica
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 17):
We have a saying in railroading : think twice, act once.

I think that's the key to this tragedy. The pilots were very quick to dismiss any abnormalities rather than enquire about them. Compounding this was talking about family events rather than concentrating on the task at hand, the pre-flight checks. Distraction and lack of awareness seem to be contributing factor to this mistake, at least from the pilots' own words.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
onetogo
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 17):
Several people "armchair piloted" simulations after the crash, using both normal settings, and max thrust

Have they tried this in a level d sim yet?
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:52 am

well......one minute you're on the ground listening to a short welcome speech about sleeping on the way to ATL....then a few mins later, they're collecting bodies.....

not what i wanted to read at night before bed, but i always stay close to crashes as it may sub consciously teach me something for my own cockpit survival one way or another...

RIP
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Evan767
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:02 am

So, whatever happened to the First Officer? Haven't heard much about him recently. Did he pass away?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
lowrider
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
So, whatever happened to the First Officer?

He was released and, last I heard, was rehabing at home in Florida. He had extensive physical and neurological injuries. As far as I know, he never regained the memories of that day.

[Edited 2007-01-18 00:08:47]
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gh123
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:13 am

http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/kentucky/0117ntsbrelease/361245.pdf

Full transcript of cockpit conversations........................
 
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litz
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 20):
Have they tried this in a level d sim yet?

As far as I know, they have not ... it was only simmed by "armchair pilots" here on the forum ...

It wouldn't surprise me, however, to discover that a max-thrust short field configuration could have gotten them over the trees ...

Mind you, of course, you have to prepare for and execute such a thing from the start, so it would be a purely academic exercise; the pilots in this case, after all, were not configured as such.

I would also not be surprised to find that a level-D simulation would also find that, as configured, there was no way for them to make it ... Sad

- litz
 
Lostmoon744
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
So, whatever happened to the First Officer? Haven't heard much about him recently. Did he pass away?

He survived. He cannot remember anything that happened apparently.
 
gh123
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting Lostmoon744 (Reply 26):
Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
So, whatever happened to the First Officer? Haven't heard much about him recently. Did he pass away?

He survived. He cannot remember anything that happened apparently.

He flew back down to Atlanta in a private jet from lexington late last year. He lost a leg. He said that he wanted to talk to the press at some point......don't know when that will be.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:34 am

Quite interesting to read the full transcript. They realized that the runway lights were not on but never realized they were on the wrong runway or at least never said anything about it. To think they called V-One and rotate and 5 seconds later was the end of the recording and the end of many lives is so scary. May they rest in peace.
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ATCme
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:35 am

Was the controller's name ever released? What happened to him? His initials are C.D.
As a side question, if a controller is implicated as PARTially responsible for a crash, what happens to them? Do they ever get to control again?
Thanks,
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Evan767
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting Lostmoon744 (Reply 26):
He survived. He cannot remember anything that happened apparently.

 scratchchin  I wonder what his reaction will be/was when he sees/saw the transcript? Maybe sparked a memory?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
N766UA
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting ATCme (Reply 29):
Was the controller's name ever released? What happened to him? His initials are C.D.

Not neccessarily. He uses CD when he talks to other facilities, but those aren't neccessarily his initials.
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jjbiv
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:22 am

His name is Christopher Damron.

joe
 
N766UA
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 32):
His name is Christopher Damron.

In that case they are his initials... mystery solved!
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KarlB737
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:19 am

Courtesy: WLS-TV

Airline Says Pilots Violated Cockpit Conversation Rule Before Comair Crash That Killed 49

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=nation_world&id=4946260
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:40 am

There is an instument that every airplane has that will indicate the aircraft heading. It is supposed to match the runway orientatation. This is pilot error all the way. Too much talking about events not related to the flight.
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2H4
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:23 pm




Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 35):
This is pilot error all the way.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise...


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
aa87
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:44 pm

Apologies if this was discussed, but anyone have insight on ground signs, how visible they were, were they legal, etc. ? when accidet happended my first reaction was, regardless of what the pilots did wrong, the signs had to be deficient in some way. Am I incorrect ? haven't heard much about ground signs.
 
N766UA
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 35):
There is an instument that every airplane has that will indicate the aircraft heading.

More than one. Check the runway number, the heading as read from the compass, and the heading displayed on the DH. If all 3 don't match up, something's awry. Reading the CVR gives you a good sense of just how easy it is to mess up, though, unfortunately.
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lowrider
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting AA87 (Reply 37):
haven't heard much about ground signs.

If you look back to the time of the orginal crash, signs, headings, runway markings, lights, air traffic controllers, airport construction, and airport diagrams were beat to death for 5 or 6 threads and around 1000 total posts. To sum up, there are many factors to consider, none of which mitigate the tragedy.
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N766UA
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting AA87 (Reply 37):
the signs had to be deficient in some way. Am I incorrect ? haven't heard much about ground signs.

Signs for that runway were unlit, as they should have been for an unused runway. Taxiway signs were all working and pointed the direction to the proper runway. The pilots just screwed the pooch, signs didn't have anything to do with it.
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aa87
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:10 pm

Thanks N766UA, that's what I was looking for.

Lowrider, I'm sure it was beat to death in the beginning when verified facts were few and speculation was rampant. Since so much time has passed, I thought the actual truth was more likely to be available now.

Of course many factors, as is usually the case. But seems we still have a ways to go on ground safety and navigation. Remember the Israir 767 that wandered onto 22R at JFK 2 years ago ? only reason 300+ weren't killed is because a smart DHL DC-8 crew decided to do a performance take-off due to wet runway, and missed by about 100 feet. I know the Israeli crew was solely to blame (and unfamiliar with JFK), but clearly taxi and ground clearance procedures need some more layers. We forget about that one and the others where alot of people *almost* died.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 35):
There is an instument that every airplane has that will indicate the aircraft heading. It is supposed to match the runway orientatation. This is pilot error all the way. Too much talking about events not related to the flight.

I just read the entire recording of the pilots and what struck me was that there was literally no departure briefing other than the standard stop or go decision. No mention of runway/taxiway construction, nothing at all. I just hope this is not what happens in airline cockpits day to day.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting AA87 (Reply 41):
Remember the Israir 767 that wandered onto 22R at JFK 2 years ago ? only reason 300+ weren't killed is because a smart DHL DC-8 crew decided to do a performance take-off due to wet runway, and missed by about 100 feet.

A couple of points: (1) Although the public didn't hear much about the Israir incident, the aviation community did; (2) The ABX Air crew that providing the service for DHL that night got ABX Air's "golden wings" award for their decision to do things by the book that night and thus saving many lives [AStar Air Cargo now does the DHL DC8 service to JFK from ILN, but back then it was an ABX Air aircraft]; (3) The Israer crew also ignored myriad signs and even flashing lights, focusing instead on counting the number of intersections as shown on their map -- but they weren't all on the same page. At one point, the co-pilot realized that they were on a runway and shoved the throttles forward to clear the runway. The captain, so sure that they were on a taxiway even as the lights of the DC8 bore down on them, retarded the throttles to idle and thus didn't clear the runway. Amazing what tunnel-vision people can get, although what it really is is complacency: at one point one looks at 5 different inputs to determine where one is, aware of the importance of being right, but for some people after doing it thousands of times, they can start to rely on just one, ignoring others.
 
avconsultant
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:16 pm

After the crash my daily news brief posted an article from the Cincinnati Enquirer, the FAA recommended Comair, a week or two prior, enhance cockpit procedures. The FAA cited too much responsibility could over burden the flight crews. Does anyone know what became of this?

I also remember a quote, from the attorney who miraculously appeared with in hours of the crash representing everyone, he would focus his case on the FAA's recommendations.
 
positiverate
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 44):
The FAA cited too much responsibility could over burden the flight crews.

I wonder what "too much responsibility" means?

I was listening to the ATC recording, and it sounds like there is music playing in the background of the tower cab when the controller reads the Comair clearance to them.
 
kubus
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:24 am

I just read the cockpit transcript and it scared the hell out of me. I mean seriously… do all regional pilots think that flying in middle east for say Emirates is like the top spot? I've heard this conversation so many times before, and reading it in a cockpit transcript from a fatal flight just makes the hair stand up. I can understand having this conversation in the gate area or once the cruise alt is reached, but mixing it with check lists might and will have fatal results.
 
planespotting
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 17):
So it was possible to use that runway for a successful takeoff ... but you almost had to treat it like launching off an aircraft carrier to do so.

Yeah -- they would have had to use all short field procedures: hold the breaks till 90% N1, lil more flaps than normal (if possible?), full power...

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 20):
Have they tried this in a level d sim yet?

Most likely quite a few times for the NTSB, lawyers, etc...
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theweave33
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:24 am

Here's a link with the report on survival factors...

http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/kentucky/0117ntsbrelease/361096.pdf

There's a diagrahm of where they found the survivors and I had a question about the two they found near the fence. How did they end up so far from the accident scene? One of the victims was from the opposite side of the plane?

Is it possible that some of the victims actually made it out alive?

If this is the case then how more horrible this accident is.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Comair 5191 Last Seconds Of CVR Transcript

Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 42):
just read the entire recording of the pilots and what struck me was that there was literally no departure briefing other than the standard stop or go decision. No mention of runway/taxiway construction, nothing at all. I just hope this is not what happens in airline cockpits day to day.



Quoting Kubus (Reply 46):
just read the cockpit transcript and it scared the hell out of me. I mean seriously? do all regional pilots think that flying in middle east for say Emirates is like the top spot? I've heard this conversation so many times before, and reading it in a cockpit transcript from a fatal flight just makes the hair stand up. I can understand having this conversation in the gate area or once the cruise alt is reached, but mixing it with check lists might and will have fatal results.

I read the entire transcript as well. What strikes me is that the co-pilot seemed a little too eager to carry on non-duty related discussions. He drawed the captain into an atmosphere of too much non-work talk from the time they got in to their seats, to almost the takeoff roll. The pre-flight checks and procedures seemed as though it was in their mental background rathern than their foreground. Other than both of them walking into the wrong plane at first (ok...happens), the F/O was calling for procedures that were already completed. He even said it was a short short taxi to 22 - establishing confidence even though work was being done to the airport. I don't want to draw any conclusions, and I doubt they will put specific blame, but I do see less than expected focus and concentration, and a little too much confidence.
Only the paranoid survive