MaverickM11
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Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:39 am

I was told this was a duplicate thread, but I can't find anything similar...not even close.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070117/20070117005730.html?.v=1

"Allied Pilots Association Outraged That Executive Bonuses Could Match or Exceed American Airlines' 2006 Net Profit"

""It is particularly egregious to pay large bonuses when our airline has been experiencing such serious operational problems. What we have today is a small set of underperforming managers whose personal financial recovery is out of line with American's troubled performance in the field. Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done?""

"Hunter cited the widely publicized incidents that occurred on Dec. 29, 2006 -- such as American Airlines Flight 1348, which sat on the tarmac in Austin, Texas for some eight hours with no food or water and overflowing toilets before the Captain elected to taxi to the terminal, despite on-duty managers' refusal to provide a gate -- "

[Edited 2007-01-17 22:40:45]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
okie73
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RE: Allied Pilots Association Is Nuts

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:41 am

Whats nuts about that? AA has survived largely because the labor groups gave back huge amounts of money. Not because of some stellar performance by the executives. I would be outraged too. Everyone had a hand in turning AA around......everyone should share in the rewards.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrag

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:47 am

But what sucks is that when executives get a bonus, they get taxed x%.. when a white or blue collar gets a bonus, they get taxed xx%.. so that is what makes it even more schatty!

But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.
Could an airline run without Pilots? No
Could an airline run without FA? Not really
Could an airline run without ramp or gate or customer service? No

So what's the actual fat that can be cut? I am not one to say anything.. but it looks pretty clear to me...

And for anyone who says an executive is needed to run an airline, I disagree.. group of managers or supervisors could do the job at 1/3 the pay and still have a company that would be profitable and oriented towards the customer.
Aiming High and going far..
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Whats nuts about that?

Just the general lack of professionalism the PR shows...the mud slinging, the smearing, the finger pointing...EVERYTHING is the fault of "underperforming" management. Plus for a union to say "Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done" is like a communist talking about increasing profits. Pay for performance flies in the face of everything a union stands for.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.
Could an airline run without Pilots? No

Could a pilot make more $$$ working elsewhere? NEVER
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

= Not if they are incompetent.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
aa757first
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):

But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.

No, it couldn't. So the pilots just wake up one day and decide what airplane they want to fly between which cities and what time? The reservationists decide how many AAdvantage miles you get? Each gate agent randomly chooses what time flights close for boarding? Flight attendants decide how much meals cost and on which flights they are served? Mechanics each have their own MELs that they put into practice?

Management, as a whole, is just as necessary to the company as the flight attendant, pilot, mechanic and CSR groups.

AAndrew
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

Almost always. You really have to want to be in the industry to swallow the pay cut. And this is true for all those "evil" executives too.

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a pilot make more $$$ working elsewhere? NEVER

Particularly those pilots that fly three-five transoceanic flights a month and are done. Down on the express end of things, life is indeed tough, but APA does not support those pilots at all.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:54 am

So technically, if they gouge out substantially more than they posted as a profit...

couldn't it almost be a loss?

Smart....very smart.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
KELPkid
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 5):
Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

= Not if they are incompetent.

-A.

Incompetence doesn't seem to stop them from moving onward and upward, especially in the high-tech field  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
adh214
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
But what sucks is that when executives get a bonus, they get taxed x%.. when a white or blue collar gets a bonus, they get taxed xx%.. so that is what makes it even more schatty!

What does this mean? Each employees tax rate is determined by the amount of taxable income they have.
 
stealthpilot
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
"Hunter cited the widely publicized incidents that occurred on Dec. 29, 2006

Peter, could you tell me more about that incident? Any links?
I guess this is what happens when you're away from anet for just a few weeks  Smile
Thanks
eP007
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DashTrash
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 6):
No, it couldn't. So the pilots just wake up one day and decide what airplane they want to fly between which cities and what time? The reservationists decide how many AAdvantage miles you get? Each gate agent randomly chooses what time flights close for boarding? Flight attendants decide how much meals cost and on which flights they are served? Mechanics each have their own MELs that they put into practice?

Management, as a whole, is just as necessary to the company as the flight attendant, pilot, mechanic and CSR groups.

After working for the airlines for a number of years, and managing the flight ops side of an air charter company, I can tell you that 9 times out of 10 management has their head up their asses.

My exposure is mainly with the operations side of the business, but if you were to let pilots, dispatchers, and flight attendants make the policies the operation runs smoother. That being said, it would take more than one opinion to make things work...

In my work experience, management is generally so far out of touch with reality it's rediculous, hence the crap decisions that are made. It is the line employees who are in the trenches that see what needs to be done to make things work, and customers happy. That's one of the many things that has made Southwest a success. They listen to their employees, unlike many legacy carriers.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
So technically, if they gouge out substantially more than they posted as a profit...

couldn't it almost be a loss?

Smart....very smart.

Negotiating time at AA. One of the many tricks used by management to show the labor groups that the company cannot afford to compensate more. Problem is, we're not stupid.....

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Just the general lack of professionalism the PR shows...the mud slinging, the smearing, the finger pointing...EVERYTHING is the fault of "underperforming" management. Plus for a union to say "Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done" is like a communist talking about increasing profits. Pay for performance flies in the face of everything a union stands for.

The way legacy carriers are run, everything IS the fault of an underperforming management. What do you suggest we blame bankruptcies on? Labor compensation is based on negotiations with.... Airline management. If a company can't afford to pay what it negotiated, they shouldn't have signed that agreement.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Whats nuts about that? AA has survived largely because the labor groups gave back huge amounts of money. Not because of some stellar performance by the executives. I would be outraged too. Everyone had a hand in turning AA around......everyone should share in the rewards.

Agreed. Problem is, that theory goes against the new American way.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Particularly those pilots that fly three-five transoceanic flights a month and are done. Down on the express end of things, life is indeed tough, but APA does not support those pilots at all.

APA does not represent Eagle pilots. They are an ALPA carrier. Would be a good thing for airline pilots across the country if they were an ALPA carrier again.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 11):
Peter, could you tell me more about that incident? Any links?

I was wondering that myself...I'm guessing we're missing the other 75% of the story  Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
fxra
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrag

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
My exposure is mainly with the operations side of the business, but if you were to let pilots, dispatchers, and flight attendants make the policies the operation runs smoother. That being said, it would take more than one opinion to make things work...

In my work experience, management is generally so far out of touch with reality it's rediculous, hence the crap decisions that are made. It is the line employees who are in the trenches that see what needs to be done to make things work, and customers happy. That's one of the many things that has made Southwest a success. They listen to their employees, unlike many legacy carriers.

While I do agree that executives (for the most part) seem to be out of touch with the rank and file, and (for the most part) way overcompensated for their jobs, I do not agree that you could have the operations types just running things by committee. Some one has to have a final say and a final responsibility. Pilots are trained to fly planes, and on the average.. they don't make good administrators. Same with Dispatchers, and Flight attendants. I think it's comparable to having a pilot do a dispatchers job or a flight attendant flying the plane. They don't have the training and qualifications. And I think you would find the policies each group comes up with would be very self serving for that group.

So, does AA need executive management? The answer is yes. Even your example of Southwest has an executive management structure, their success lies in the philosophy of that organization. What you imply AA is lacking is such a philosophy. (And i would agree as an outside observer, but I don't have any real personal experience to base that on).

Unfortunately I don't think this problem is limited to the airlines. Ask anyone at MCI or Enron. What baffles me is how after bankrupting a corporation, some one will hire you for the same job?? Over and over... i don't get it.
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
Incompetence doesn't seem to stop them from moving onward and upward, especially in the high-tech field

Didn't stop Fred Reid, Frank Lorenzo, et al. You can always pull a Leo Mullin and be randomly brought into the industry, only to suck at everything you do.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
Negotiating time at AA. One of the many tricks used by management to show the labor groups that the company cannot afford to compensate more. Problem is, we're not stupid.....

But they can always add more bonuses. I'm glad they didn't get the China flight, APA stuck to their guns on it and good for them.

Quoting FXRA (Reply 14):
What baffles me is how after bankrupting a corporation, some one will hire you for the same job?? Over and over... i don't get it.

Quote of the year bro. I can think of many individuals who need to be banned from the airline industry completely. Alot of folks at Eastern, Pan Am, NW, DL, etc.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
DashTrash
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting FXRA (Reply 14):
. Some one has to have a final say and a final responsibility. Pilots are trained to fly planes, and on the average.. they don't make good administrators. Same with Dispatchers, and Flight attendants.

Administrative duties, and final say and responsibility is what happens in every cockpit, every cabin, and every dispatch center for and on every flight.

We see just about every aspect of the operations, with the exception of finance. We see it's strong points and weaknesses. I won't claim that flight crew have all the answers, but we have the best view of what's happening. Most of the time, we're ignored when we bring things up.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
Labor compensation is based on negotiations with.... Airline management

NEGOTIATION? What happens every time an airline tries to pay their pilots market wages?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ssides
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RE: Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
could an airline run without executives? Yes.

OK, I really want the pilots to go out and justify their six-figure salaries -- even when people are paying less and less for airfare and fuel prices are still abnormally high -- by convincing banks and other institutional investors to put money into the airline; to negotiate contracts with reservations systems, caterers, airport leasing entities, and other relationship partners; to ensure that all employees' benefits and payroll are properly administered; to ensure that the airline does not default on its obligations to its lenders; to provide information to the airline's shareholders, who have a right to such information; and to do pretty much everything for the airline except fly, clean, board, prepare, and unload the planes.

I know the pilots have given back quite a bit, but they still have a pretty sweet deal given the nature of the business. Their skill set is a narrow one, whereas the executives' are much broader-based -- Don Carty, for example, has the financial knowledge and wherewithall to work for AA or for Dell Computer. That justifies a higher salary and benefit package to the execs, because their is much more risk of them jumping ship for a better offer. Pilots are much more fungible, it's just the nature of the beast.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!