tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
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Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:05 am

Expand at the TJ airport!

It's right on the border. The Mexico/U.S. border runs right along the terminal boundary, across the street.

So San Diego could enter into an agreement with TJ and do split operation. Build terminals on the US side and all San Diego bound traffic uses the terminal on the US side and the Mexico flights use the terminals as they do now on the Mexican side.

It would only require the expansion across th e street to span into the U.S. which is only a few hundred feet away with plenty of vacant land available there.

Extend the rail lines to the airport from downtown and viola, airport problem solved. No border crossing necessary for domestic passengers on domestic U.S. flights in and out of TIJ/SAN.

Of course this will never happen as it's politically not feasible. But in all practicality, it's the fastest, cheapest and best solution. TIJ has plenty of room to expand and land around it. It's not being anywhere near fully utilized right now anyway.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:12 am

This one has been discussed. It has been voted down.

In its current state of paranoia against anything to do with Mexico, the American government will never allow a joint anything between the United States and either Canada or Mexico.

Besides, who would control the airspace?

I believe, also, that TIJ has issues with stability of the land...
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
as739x
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:18 am

Old idea Tommy. Just not feasible with security, international border, etc. And as said above, it was proposed already and shot down.

ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
tootallsd
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:46 am

I disagree, this is viable just like a joint-use airport is viable. They exist elsewhere. But our inbred xenophobia allows us to say, oh security, bla, bla, airspace, bla, bla.
 
Marcus
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:50 am

read my lips........"nel"
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
drerx7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:52 am

So what I'm gathering from all these SAN threads and the news clippings is that San Diego in terms of aviation is well...uh...screwed? What are they going to do?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
PanAm747
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:38 pm

Quote:
So what I'm gathering from all these SAN threads and the news clippings is that San Diego in terms of aviation is well...uh...screwed? What are they going to do?

Same as the Los Angeles basin, same as the Fort Lauderdale area, same as western Long Island, same as the neighborhoods around O'Hare airport.

1) Hide their heads in the sand.

2) Pray all these "people" will just go away and leave our homes to us. That way, when people stop coming, the airport problem will solve itself.

3) Bitch, moan, and complain about property values. Act horrified in public that someone even MENTIONS the idea of airplanes flying over houses or schools or any other place humans might exist. Note: Military aircraft are exempt from this argument. That rattling of your windows is the sound of freedom!!

4) Above all else, find another airport to dump all your passengers on. Even if this airport's master plan puts a future cap on passengers, ignore it and make this the answer to all the future air travel needs. Remember: out of sight, out of mind makes it someone else's problem.

5) Finally, attack the messenger. If you cannot come up with a logical argument, find a way to make the person who brings up the argument look disloyal, traitorous, or best yet, tell him or her, "you just don't understand how things are done down here". Convince enough people that the messenger is crazy, and you've won the argument without having addressed the issue at all.

Does any of this sound familiar?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
WDBRR
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:43 pm

Isn't this dual country airport done somewhere in Europe?
France? Switzerland? I remember seeing a map with a
border going through the airport.
 
N1120A
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 7):
Isn't this dual country airport done somewhere in Europe?
France? Switzerland? I remember seeing a map with a
border going through the airport.

Basel/Mulhouse/Freiburg Euro Airport (BSL/MLH) is in France but has a dedicated Swiss domestic area with a road serving Basel. Similarly, GVA is very near the border with its French suburbs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
drerx7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:53 pm

These NIMBY's are something else--meanwhile I get lulled to sleep by the 1am, 2:37a, 3:43a, 5:17a freight train that goes by.

So tentatively SAN is out of options--all have been officially eliminated?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
worldsurfer
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Basel/Mulhouse/Freiburg Euro Airport (BSL/MLH) is in France but has a dedicated Swiss domestic area with a road serving Basel. Similarly, GVA is very near the border with its French suburbs.

GVA has a terminal that is both france and switzerland , i remember having to cross the border while inside the terminal to go to the lost luggage office, then i had to cross back into france to meet the driver that was picking me up.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 9):
These NIMBY's are something else--meanwhile I get lulled to sleep by the 1am, 2:37a, 3:43a, 5:17a freight train that goes by.

So tentatively SAN is out of options--all have been officially eliminated?

Do it KIX style, plow billions into building an off shore island, then again, that is california, and they probably would find that offensive to the environment. ORD style, which is to eminent domain houses by the hundred is not popular either... huh.

No good solution, SAn will just have to make due with what they've got. Either that or you know, build an airport further east, like out towards Qualcomm Stadium, where it might be a shade easier to get your hands on some plot of open land. Heck, going all the way out to El Cajon wouldn't be so bad... i mean, unless it was rush hour, right? haha.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 3):
I disagree, this is viable just like a joint-use airport is viable. They exist elsewhere. But our inbred xenophobia allows us to say, oh security, bla, bla, airspace, bla, bla.

Call it what you like, but until there is a truly controlled border, it will likely never happen. To me, it would be a bad joke to do it at this point, as "border security" is neither a border nor secure.

Once we can control the flow of folks crossing the border (likely never), then we can talk a joint airport facility.

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 7):
Isn't this dual country airport done somewhere in Europe?
France? Switzerland? I remember seeing a map with a
border going through the airport.

I guess the big difference is that the European Union has made it much easier to cross borders, and I doubt that there is a huge problem of illegal immigration between France and Switzerland.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 3):
I disagree, this is viable just like a joint-use airport is viable. They exist elsewhere. But our inbred xenophobia allows us to say, oh security, bla, bla, airspace, bla, bla.

It's been talked about for years with Mexico and the level of participation changes every year with Mexico. You simply can't count on any level of continuity from Mexico officials.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 5):
So what I'm gathering from all these SAN threads and the news clippings is that San Diego in terms of aviation is well...uh...screwed? What are they going to do?

Wait until people "get" the Lindbergh problem, and then build a new airport at Miramar by virtue of necessity. It's the San Diego way. Wait until it's completely broken, then complain about it and pay twice as much to resolve it.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 11):
Do it KIX style, plow billions into building an off shore island, then again, that is california, and they probably would find that offensive to the environment. ORD style, which is to eminent domain houses by the hundred is not popular either... huh.

The ocean shelf is too close to the coast, and it's vertical.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Basel/Mulhouse/Freiburg Euro Airport (BSL/MLH) is in France but has a dedicated Swiss domestic area with a road serving Basel. Similarly, GVA is very near the border with its French suburbs.

That would be the equivalent of building an airport on the California/Arizona or California/Nevada border given the agreements in place in the EU. The US and Mexico is an entirely different issue. The sad part of it is the same clowns that don't want Miramar to be used are the same clowns that want to close the border between the US and Mexico eliminating the US/Mexico border option.

Anti-Airport, war monger, US isolationist, fascist numero uno and San Diego's biggest aviation roadblock:

http://www.house.gov/hunter/

In his eye's the lack of an adequite airport for San Diego hinges on "sacrifice" of the citizens to support global domination. This guy is the closest US version of Hitler I've ever seen.

[Edited 2007-01-18 06:33:11]
 
2travel2know
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:17 am

Just Dreaming, If an airport terminal with Check-in, Duty Free, FIS, Car Rental and Parkinghouse was built on the U.S. side of TIJ Airport with its (long) link to a 6 gate (4 jetway) satellite on the Mexican side, that terminal it could be easily become San Diego airport for international flights; then only Domestic and Canadian slot and aircraft type restricted flights could continue to operate in SAN.
To have such a "U.S. Port of Entry at a Foreign Airport" solution in TIJ for the international flights serving (going to serve) SAN, would be more feasible (and less painful to negotiate between the U.S. and Mexican authorities) than to have all of SAN flights move to TIJ.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
N1120A
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Worldsurfer (Reply 10):
GVA has a terminal that is both france and switzerland

Actually, that isn't expressly true. GVA is completely within Swizerland, but the "French" side of the terminal has dedicated access to France.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
I guess the big difference is that the European Union has made it much easier to cross borders, and I doubt that there is a huge problem of illegal immigration between France and Switzerland

Switzerland is not in the EU.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):
That would be the equivalent of building an airport on the California/Arizona or California/Nevada border given the agreements in place in the EU.

Switzerland is not in the EU. Further, while Switzerland is a member of Schengen, they are not an implementing country and still have border checks.

Anyway, what people seem to be missing here is that airports are not exactly the best places to cross a border. They are some of the most secure places we have, and simple airport security concerns would mean keeping people from attempting to cross the border on airport property. If anything, it would take a nice chunk of the border and make it harder to cross, and impossible to tunnel under. Anyway, the SDM-TIJ joining proposal would be a really fun one, and be easily hooked up to public transport in San Diego, but we all know it won't happen.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Beta
Posts: 279
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:18 am

I think the idea of a joint SAN-TIJ airport is a non-starter. Have any of you ever visited Tijuana? Have any of you worked in the Hilcrest Med Center ED or level I trauma in SD where they regularly take patients fly-transported in from Tijuana? San Diego and Tijuana is not like France and Switzerland, my friends; it's more like Switzerland and Baghdad. Until and unless the corrupted Mexican government and police clean up the drugs gangs in Tijuana (and I don't see that ever happen), the airport idea is DOA.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):
This guy is the closest US version of Hitler I've ever seen.

Now, this is completely un-called for. You realize Hitler was a mass murderer of unimaginative scale of the century, right? To remotely compare someone who just opposes your idea of expanding airport, or political beliefs to Hitler diminishes you and your argument, and is an injustice to millions of victims of Hitler, my friend. Hope, you do not take it wrong way. Cheers.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:24 am

I've been following the TIJ/SAN airport thing for years.It seems as if the officials down in Mexico were watching the San Diego airport problem and would rush to expand TIJ just to compete. When the Brown field cargo port was floated,they decided to make TIJ a cargo port.They saw SAN had a runway problem,they expanded theirs,and added taxiways,perhaps hoping to
take some or all air traffic from SAN and attract international flights.Some think this is a good idea,but TIJ still is a one runway airport just like SAN.The
Mexican officials are thinking a little too grand for TIJ.They even built a huge widebody aircraft repair plant there,(Matrix Aeronautica),which closed down, leaving a big empty hangar and a derelict 747 which sat there for years.I recently posted that Although TIJ has the new TIJ/NRT flight,I have not seen
an influx of San Diegans rushing down there for Int'l flights.They are still catching commuter flights and fighting freeway traffic to fly out of LAX.If there was a huge amount of PAX traffic using TIJ from San Diego, the TIJ airport would be double it's current size.SAN is still double the size of TIJ in terms of terminal/gate size(Lindbergh has three terminals),TIJ has one.It just appears as if Mexico is using TIJ to capitalize off SAN's shortcomings,instead of working together.
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Coronado990
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:01 am

It seems Washington DC and Mexico City could care less about our little problems over here. I say we just join up with Tijuana and create our own little city-state much like Singapore and then have our own airline providing service from a central airport with service to the world!

Okay, back to Earth. A combined international airport could certainly attract the flights we want from Latin America, Asia and Europe. What a great hub it would be. My guess it would attract Latin American airlines flying between South America and Asia as they would not have to stop in the US (avoiding visa problems) but still serve the US.

I was toying with a terminal that straddles the border. Check-in counters would lead to a sterile international concourse accessible from both sides. A citizen from the US could be dropped off on the US side and go right thru to the international concourse or a Mexican customs facility for internal Mexican domestic flights. The Mexican check-in counters would lead to Mexican domestic flights and international flights via the sterile concourse. Mexicans will go straight to a US customs facility if they are using US domestic flights.

When getting off from an international flight, passengers would have the choice of going thru US or Mexican customs. Getting off a Mexican domestic flight means passengers can claim their luggage and then walk thru to the US side via customs. Same with arriving on a US domestic flight. It only requires that passengers claim their luggage and amble over to the Mexican customs to get into Tijuana.

How many US domestic flights will be at this airport is anybody's guess as I envision Lindbergh staying open to handle regional flights while, domestically, the SDM/TIJ airport could handle flights to major east coast cities plus all the usual hubs primarily as a way of providing connecting flights from the international segments. For San Diego, SDM/TIJ would mainly be for international flights and future growth as a way of relieving Lindbergh.

For Tijuana, it means arriving on a runway that does not require a bent approach as a new 12,000 foot runway could be off-set by 20 degrees allowing straight in ILS approaches from the east. The current TIJ runway 9-27 remains and a new runway parallel north of the current RWY 9-27 could be built right in between Brown Field and TIJ on the US side. This could accommodate US domestic departures while the current TIJ runway handles all the Mexican departures. The new 12,000 foot runway would be for arrivals and any heavy requiring more than 9,700 feet of concrete. During bad weather, flights could arrive on 9L (US side) and 9R (Mexico side) simultaneously as these runways will be more than 5,000 feet apart.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 18):
a new runway parallel north of the current RWY 9-27 could be built right in between Brown Field and TIJ on the US side. This could accommodate US domestic departures while the current TIJ runway handles all the Mexican departures

This idea was floated in 1990/91. It was called TwinPorts.It was proposed by County Supervisor Ron Roberts. Chula Vista jumped on the NIMBY bandwagon and screamed bloody murder about it,although studies proved that aircraft noise would not affect Chula Vista.The proposal called for a 12,000 foot runway on the U.S. side,including terminals,connected by a taxiway to TIJ's runway and terminals.Air traffic control was to be shared in one tower by Mexican and U.S. controllers.The battle cry for Chula Vista was:"We don't want to be a dumping ground for San Diego's projects!"However,they don't seem to mind having a major prison in their backyards,and they are trying their best to build a stadium to attract the SD Chargers to their town,( a contradiction eh?)but an airport is soooo evil! In the end ,Chula Vista got a congressman on their side and elected a mayor who's biggest goal was to kill TwinPorts. Mexico untimately vetoed the idea.It was interesting that the Mexican government decided to extend TIJ's runway a year later to accomodate international flights and offer to take ALL of San Diego's air traffic.San Diego told them to go pound sand. The no on the Miramar vote back in November is an encore performance of the TwinPorts proposal 16 years ago,except with different actors this time.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
SANFan
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:43 am

You folks can correct me on this but I remember a few years back there was a campaign to turn Brown Field into either THE airport of SD or at least the cargo/freight airport for the region. There was, of course, a nasty, big-budget "Vote No" campaign with millions of dollars pumped in, most of which was coming from the big developers who planned on covering the region with houses. (Now there's a big surprise!)

I'm sure if or when this Twin Ports idea were ever to try to start again, the same developers and their huge checkbooks would be right there again!

bb
 
SANMAN66
Posts: 556
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 20):



Quoting SANFan (Reply 20):
You folks can correct me on this but I remember a few years back there was a campaign to turn Brown Field into either THE airport of SD or at least the cargo/freight airport for the region. There was, of course, a nasty, big-budget "Vote No" campaign with millions of dollars pumped in, most of which was coming from the big developers who planned on covering the region with houses. (Now there's a big surprise!)

You are absolutely correct.There was a campaign to use Brown Field as a cargo port. I've noticed,that everytime an airport proposal surfaces (such as Miramar,or TwinPorts),the individuals proposing the plan seem to be surprised
when they are faced with so much opposition.They don't seem to do their homework in dealing with the issue,such as studying the past failures and coming up with a way to meet the opposition head-on. The Airport Authority
seemed to me as if they thought Miramar would be a slam dunk when they put it on the ballot,but later found out the hard way.It always seems as if it's
the little guys (People with airport proposals) going up against politicians,major developers,and the like,only to get destroyed when the politicians,etc.influences their constituents that an international airport is a bad idea.When Chula Vista was screaming their heads off about TwinPorts,I was wondering why wasn't anyone pursuing Miramar at the same time? That
would have really forced San Diego to make a choice (two competing proposals) I'd be willing to bet that it would have broken the stalemate and probably put some political muscle behind it.Heck,maybe La Jolla could have voted YES to TwinPorts,while Chula Vista could have voted YES to Miramar, and the highest voter turnout could have decided it.But alas no.Nobody seems to think about these things.Look where we are today,nowhere closer to solving the problem.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 11):
Do it KIX style, plow billions into building an off shore island, then again, that is california, and they probably would find that offensive to the environment. ORD style, which is to eminent domain houses by the hundred is not popular either... huh.

The ocean shelf is too close to the coast, and it's vertical.

Well shoot, that won't work then.

What if they built way going east, like 30 miles east, where there is still open land and built a high speed rail to connect it to parking somewhere in the city (so you could park and board the rail right to the airport terminal).... this clearly would not be cheap, or perfect, but probably easier than anything else out there (like tearing down a whole slew of houses, which won't happen)... the only other issue i can think of there is the extreme heat inland impacting takeoff performance....
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
PanAm747
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:24 am

Quote:
What if they built way going east, like 30 miles east, where there is still open land and built a high speed rail to connect it to parking somewhere in the city.

Sorry, 30 miles east is mountains. You have to go all the way to the Imperial Valley to find an area flat enough for an airport - and that's almost 100 miles east. If you're going to do that, you might as well drive to LAX.

The proposed MAGLEV train, btw, was estimated to be $5 billion (with a b) dollars.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Switzerland is not in the EU.

Didn't say it was.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Switzerland is not in the EU. Further, while Switzerland is a member of Schengen, they are not an implementing country and still have border checks

Again, didn't say it was. It was the more open "EU" that makes it possible. The EU is trying to extend it's borders.

Quoting Beta (Reply 16):
Now, this is completely un-called for. You realize Hitler was a mass murderer of unimaginative scale of the century, right?

You ever heard the man speak? Don't be so quick to call it "uncalled for". The man is a nut, I happen to be a Republican, and this man would end your freedoms in a heartbeat and step on the constitution to get his way if it promoted his way of thinking. It's got nothing to do with the airport, but his stance has everything to do with it.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 22):
What if they built way going east, like 30 miles east, where there is still open land and built a high speed rail to connect it to parking somewhere in the city (so you could park and board the rail right to the airport terminal).... this clearly would not be cheap, or perfect, but probably easier than anything else out there (like tearing down a whole slew of houses, which won't happen)... the only other issue i can think of there is the extreme heat inland impacting takeoff performance....

Your viability for cargo support is diminished. Which cargo company is going to drive gargo to a maglev terminal, load the cargo, run it down the maglev track to the airport, unload it, then re-load it on a plane? It's just as easy to take it to Ontario or LAX at 3:00 am when there is no traffic. Passengers are less of an issue. Over time, driving to LAX will become more time and cost prohibitive. Thus it would make sense to have such a system. The furthest east site is Campo, but SAN would have to be completely out of capacity to make it viable. The Desert airport is a non-starter because it is simply too far - SAN is not a hub nor is it likely to be one. Then of course, there is the issue of cost being 2-3 times what an airport at Miramar or Pendleton would cost.

[Edited 2007-01-19 04:12:18]
 
User avatar
STT757
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:48 pm

There are joint active duty Military airfields and Commercial airports in the US, Honolulu (Hickam AFB) and Charleston SC come to mind. The Joint use idea for Miramar should be kicked around some more, if not pay to move the Marines from Miramar 100 miles Northeast to the former George AFB (Victorville).

It has huge ramp space, great runway layout, no residential encroachment, it's 72 miles from Twenty Nine Palms, 70 miles South of China Lake and about 80 miles from Camp Pendleton.

Perfect spot for the Marines, they can make as much noise as they want with their CH-53s and F-18s.

If not George AFB (Victorville) than move the Marines to Hawaii, reopen Barber's Point and kick the Navy out of Kaneohe bay.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
sllevin
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
Same as the Los Angeles basin,

You're not referring to the idiotic plans people float to continue to force almost all air traffic into LAX, are you? Surely you realize that BUR, SNA, and LGB have vast amounts of capacity sitting unused compared to LAX. And given that LAX is the largest O&D market on the planet, clearly, the LAX of today can handle all the connecting traffic if we could simply force more O&D traffic to other airports (which would save on the horrific drive to LAX!)

Steve
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:30 pm

well, why not keep SAN up and going, keep flights going out of there, cargo, whatnot, and build the maglev, at $5billion, not terribly bad, to somewhere like LGB, continuing on to LAX, or something like that.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
san88
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 26):
(which would save on the horrific drive to LAX!)

I make the drive several times a year, it isn’t that bad in the carpool lane..lol
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
hawaiian717
Posts: 3139
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 27):
continuing on to LAX

Because that doesn't help. LAX doesn't want us dumping our excess passengers on them, they have their own capacity issues to deal with. Remember, they have a cap on annual passengers, and if they go over it, they start closing gates.

LGB and SNA are severely slot controlled so they can't take much extra capacity either. If you're going to do high speed rail to an existing LA-area airport, ONT would be the one (and might not actually be that bad of an idea).

My response to the idea of building maglev out to Imperial Valley and building a big airport out there is that if they're going to go to all that trouble, why not forget building the airport and just extend the train to PHX?  Wink

Miramar is our best option. I hope everyone else figures that out before the facility gets El Toroed.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 27):
well, why not keep SAN up and going, keep flights going out of there, cargo, whatnot, and build the maglev, at $5billion, not terribly bad, to somewhere like LGB, continuing on to LAX, or something like that.

LAX, LGB and SNA now have legally binding capacity caps on them. San Diego has to quit passing the buck and answer it's own capacity problems. That's not to say Lindbergh can't support regional flights with a smaller footprint airport at Miramar or Pendleton (i.e. New York, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Washington DC on a smaller scale.)
 
AADC10
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:43 pm

San Diego is run by a bunch of small minded arch conservatives and they will get what they deserve. They are too NIMBY and too racist for their own good.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 31):
San Diego is run by a bunch of small minded arch conservatives and they will get what they deserve. They are too NIMBY and too racist for their own good.

Yup.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 27):
well, why not keep SAN up and going, keep flights going out of there, cargo, whatnot, and build the maglev, at $5billion, not terribly bad, to somewhere like LGB, continuing on to LAX, or something like that.

Here is the proposed map. The New San Diego airport will be ONTARIO! This HSR will no doubt be built before a new SAN airport is built.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/route/default.asp

I heard there is another line already approved for LA - LAS Vegas t was waiting for federal money, which I guess has been spent in Iraq or somewhere else.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:59 pm

That's a plan that can only be dreamed up in California. Commute 100 miles one way to get to the airport. Sometimes I think Southern Californians just love to commute for its own sake.

TIJ is what, 10 miles away from downtown San Diego and even closer to other areas with an operating international airport with room to expand? Cost/Benefit analysis of any project is what California politicians or the voters should insist on. Southern Cali is screwed up enough as it is for lack of planning.

The transportation cost alone would probably be more than a ticket on SW to phoenix as would the travel time to the airport. This makes sense? This is cost effective for SAN pax?
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 34):
TIJ is what, 10 miles away from downtown San Diego

It's 18 miles flying from SAN to TIJ so its probably a bit longer by road (SAN airport is virtually downtown). Also consider that the population center of the county isn't downtown, but the Golden Triangle area which is north of downtown and adjacent to Miramar.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:03 am

The 805 Freeway runs almost smack to Otay, where the TIJ airport is, so if the population is along this corridor (in reality its an urban carpet without much free space). Getting there would be a snap. Also it gets progressively less densely populated as you go towards the border. There is little traffic right now between San and Otay as well, so it's not like adding yet more traffic to an already traffic congested area.

To me this is the best solution. The politics of it shows me that I was mistaken in how much Americans (I'm one) are creative and practical. I doubt Hoover Dam or other projects would be possible today with the mentality we now have in this country. The "can do" is pretty much gone.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:24 am

Another option can be to fill in Coronado Bay (south of the bridge), but I don't think the US Navy will be too happy with that idea.

As of now, Miramar is our only solution. However, with this new Congress, I'm expecting base closures sometime in the next 2-4 years, so San Diego may get its wish to acquire Miramar.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 29):
Because that doesn't help. LAX doesn't want us dumping our excess passengers on them, they have their own capacity issues to deal with. Remember, they have a cap on annual passengers, and if they go over it, they start closing gates.

LGB and SNA are severely slot controlled so they can't take much extra capacity either. If you're going to do high speed rail to an existing LA-area airport, ONT would be the one (and might not actually be that bad of an idea).

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. ONT will have to be the overflow for Los Angeles, Ventura, San Bernadino, Riverside, Orange, and San Diego counties. Fun fun... But due to capacity caps at SNA, noise at LGB, and the new capacity cap at LAX... there just isn't anywhere else logical to grow. Its been shown again and again that a new airport 30+ miles from the city center takes 20+ years to estabilish itself (if the core airport is left open, e.g., IAD, JFK (for domestic), etc.)

Can do is gone, for now. But I believe a few economic stimulus projects will be desired in a year or two...  Wink

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
PanAm747
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:35 am

The ironic thing to me is that with all the capacity caps, BFL might eventually get service again.

Brand new terminal with jetways, 10,000+ foot long runway, and lots of room for expansion, maybe one day it will experience a renaissance thanks to southern California NIMBY's!

So, what commercial airports does that leave southern California? SAN and CLD will never expand, nor will SNA, LGB, or BUR...LAX will very soon starting turning people away. That leaves ONT (which can be a nightmare to get to!!), PSP (even further away!) and BFL.

I wonder what percent of LAX's traffic comes from BFL, what with Airport Bus of Bakersfield and so few choices.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:52 am

High Speed rail will happen before any San Diego airport is every approved. Look closely at the map I posted earlier.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/route/default.asp

It is no accident that the HSR route will be fairly close to Miramar, March, Palmdale and Ontario (actually the last two are planned stops). If you look at the HSR plan, you will find the following text, to me it seems the HSR crowd does not expect SAN to ever be built.

"... new airport capacity has proven elusive. Planners in San Diego and Orange counties, for example have been unable to site new airports after more than a decade of effort"

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/im...lementation/ImplementationPlan.pdf
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 39):
That leaves ONT (which can be a nightmare to get to!!), PSP (even further away!) and BFL.

I would expect to see PMD emerge as an alternate before BFL. PSP could draw from Riverside and San Bernardino if ONT ever starts having capacity problems.
 
galapagapop
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 22):
Well shoot, that won't work then.

What if they built way going east, like 30 miles east, where there is still open land and built a high speed rail to connect it to parking somewhere in the city (so you could park and board the rail right to the airport terminal).... this clearly would not be cheap, or perfect, but probably easier than anything else out there (like tearing down a whole slew of houses, which won't happen)... the only other issue i can think of there is the extreme heat inland impacting takeoff performance....

Doubt it SAN can't even get other public transportation project off the ground, such a that proposed commuter line, the rail between the barriers on I-5, and the expansion of their tram/trolley system. I cannot forsee such insight to actually add a high speed rail as well. For such a green state the use of highways seems to the end all solution to any transportation problem.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Simple And Cheap Solution For San Diego

Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 35):
It's 18 miles flying from SAN to TIJ so its probably a bit longer by road (SAN airport is virtually downtown). Also consider that the population center of the county isn't downtown, but the Golden Triangle area which is north of downtown and adjacent to Miramar.

The population center is actually Miramar, not the Golden Triangle.

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 36):
There is little traffic right now between San and Otay as well, so it's not like adding yet more traffic to an already traffic congested area.

Completely false. The 805 is one of the worst freeways in San Diego South of the 94.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 37):
Another option can be to fill in Coronado Bay (south of the bridge), but I don't think the US Navy will be too happy with that idea.

Navy has zip to do with that. Much of the bay is a protected habitat.

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