QXatFAT
Topic Author
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Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:42 pm

Just came on the ABC 30 11pm news here saying that a piece of Ice fell off of an American Airlines MD83 aircraft taking off at the 7:50am departure I would guess. It showed the mans roof of his house and the hole that went right threw it and into the corner of his bedroom! Happend while he was sleeping. The ice piece looked pretty big on the camera.

How often does things like this happen? You would think that the aircraft was fully de-iced before departure. We have had a bad piece of this Artic Blast here in the valley.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:53 pm

This happens once in a while

Sometimes if the crew empties the aircrafts....ahem "bowels" during flight some of the excrement will get attached to the skin of the aircraft and freeze. Perhaps this is what happened

This happened to an Air Canada Flight over Toronto a few years ago I beleive. Anyone have any information on this one?
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
necigrad
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 1):
Sometimes if the crew empties the aircrafts....ahem "bowels" during flight some of the excrement will get attached to the skin of the aircraft and freeze. Perhaps this is what happened

Uhhh... Right.

How did they determine that it was ice from an aircraft? An aircraft isn't going to accumalate a notable amount of ice before takeoff, and not for at least a minute or two in the air. At that point even a GA aircraft would be at least 1500-2000 feet in the air. A piece of ice isn't going to survie that fall intact, and would likely break apart when hitting the roof, not go through it. I know DC-9s are bad for freezing due to thin wings, but I find that hard to believe. Course this is trhe news you're talking about, and they're aviation experts.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 1):
Sometimes if the crew empties the aircrafts....ahem "bowels" during flight some of the excrement will get attached to the skin of the aircraft and freeze. Perhaps this is what happened

what do you mean "bowels". Do you mean the toliet system or what.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
copaair737
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:33 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 3):
what do you mean "bowels". Do you mean the toliet system or what.

You catch on quickly.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
necigrad
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:38 pm

You do know that aircraft don't dump lavs in flight, right? Every story about crap falling out of the sky is a myth and nothing more.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
How did they determine that it was ice from an aircraft? An aircraft isn't going to accumalate a notable amount of ice before takeoff, and not for at least a minute or two in the air. At that point even a GA aircraft would be at least 1500-2000 feet in the air. A piece of ice isn't going to survie that fall intact, and would likely break apart when hitting the roof, not go through it. I know DC-9s are bad for freezing due to thin wings, but I find that hard to believe. Course this is trhe news you're talking about, and they're aviation experts.

Huuh? They do have what they call 'blue ice' that falls off planes all the time the time especially in Northern Cal. Unfortunately, I don't know how it forms though so my argument is pretty weak but I do know it's not a myth.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
How did they determine that it was ice from an aircraft?

Where else would it come from, Woodstock's martini?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 6):

Huuh? They do have what they call 'blue ice' that falls off planes all the time the time especially in Northern Cal. Unfortunately, I don't know how it forms though so my argument is pretty weak but I do know it's not a myth.

Blue ice is the "blue juice" that leaks out of the fill port when not properly serviced.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 7):

Where else would it come from, Woodstock's martini?

It could have been hail. It could have been freezing rain. It could have been ice already on the roof when that section of the roof collapsed because of the weight of the ice. Finding ice and a hole in the roof and saying it was from an aircraft is a cop out. Yes it MAY have been, but there are several other, and in my opinion more logical, possibilities.

In order for ice to come off the aircraft it needs to build up. Because of airflow ice builds up in sheets. Assuming the ice didn't bring down the plane (no crash mentioned) it couldn't have accumilated by more then an inch on any aircraft otherwise it wouldn't be flying, it would be falling. And a sheet of ice 1 inch think is very fragile.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 6):
I don't know how it forms though so my argument is pretty weak but I do know it's not a myth.

Okay firstly Aircraft don't dump their lavs fluid during flight. That blue fuild (on older types) is in there for a very good reason... that water is recyled thru the system continually. If it were possible to 'dump' it in midflight, then the toilets wouldn't work anymore. Secondly, it's illegal and highly unethical.

Now as for the blue ice. It comes from a leak at the lav servicing point. This blue fluid is emptied when the aircraft is on the ground, then, new 'fresh' blue fuild is pumped right back into those same tanks. On some older airplanes, those valves, just like in any older more worn out piece of equipment, may occasionally be prone to leaking, and need attention by the tech guys. Before this problem is discovered, sometimes, in flight, small droplets will leak out, and occasionally as they do, they start to freeze to the underside of the aircraft and form a large "ice berg" if you wish. It is for this reason, that when this ice is discovered, it's often blue, but never contains any 'solid bits'... but some ppl will complain of a 'harpic smell".

Anyway, as the aircraft decends, the aircraft enters warmer air the ice berg starts to melt, and then before you know it, presto, it drops off inflight on approach. It doesn't happen all that often, as it requires significant freezing and a 'build up'... i would imagine most often this doesn't happen or when it does it breaks off at such a high alltitude that it has well and truely broken up and dispersed by the time it hits the ground... but occasionally it doesn't that that what happens.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:13 pm

haha meet joe dirt, that's all i have to say  Wink
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:34 pm

Any links to this story??

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 8):
it couldn't have accumilated by more then an inch on any aircraft otherwise it wouldn't be flying

It is a well documented fact that aircraft shed ice on occasion. Rear engine planes even had problems with engine loss due to this.

A leaking toilet service drain at FL330 caused ice to be ingested in the no. 3 engine. The first stage fanblades failed and the engine suddenly stopped. Due to the excessive loads, the engine separated from the fuselage. A succesfull emergency landing was carried out at Houston.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740430-0&lang=en


While cruising at FL350 in clear smooth air, a loud noise was heard, accompanied by a severe jolt as the no. 3 engine separated from its mounts.
It appeared that the forward lavatory was leaking deodorant fluid and water. Leakage of the lavatory waste drain valve was the result of a damaged "O" ring seal. Frozen fluid and water was ingested by the no. 3 engine. Fanblades failed and the engine broke away due to overload forces.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850416-0&lang=en

While cruising at FL350 the crew heard a bang and noted the loss of no 3 engine power. A safe emergency landing was carried out at Tampa, FL. It appeared that the forward lavatory external seal was missing the safety button and the internal seal was improperly installed allowing for leakage when the airplane was pressurized. Frozen chunks of lavatory fluid had been ingested by the no. 3 engine, causing it to separate from the fuselage.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900104-1&lang=en


Airlines are not allowed to dump their waste tanks in mid-flight, and pilots have no mechanism by which to do so; however, leaks can occur. There have been at least 27 documented incidents of blue ice impacts in the U.S. between 1979 and 2003.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ice_(aircraft)

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 8):
Finding ice and a hole in the roof and saying it was from an aircraft is a cop out. Yes it MAY have been, but there are several other, and in my opinion more logical, possibilities.

Care to provide links to these?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 8):
It could have been hail. It could have been freezing rain. It could have been ice already on the roof when that section of the roof collapsed because of the weight of the ice. Finding ice and a hole in the roof and saying it was from an aircraft is a cop out. Yes it MAY have been, but there are several other, and in my opinion more logical, possibilities.

In this case it wasnt. There has not been any clouds in the sky for 4 days now. So no hail or anything. Its ice from something and they said an aircraft because he lives by the airport.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
Any links to this story??

No sorry. It was just on the night news and that was it.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 9):
Anyway, as the aircraft decends, the aircraft enters warmer air the ice berg starts to melt, and then before you know it, presto, it drops off inflight on approach. It doesn't happen all that often, as it requires significant freezing and a 'build up'... i would imagine most often this doesn't happen or when it does it breaks off at such a high alltitude that it has well and truely broken up and dispersed by the time it hits the ground... but occasionally it doesn't that that what happens.

Maybe this is what they ment? Maybe they ment landing instead of taking off? I can see your point in this.

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
Course this is trhe news you're talking about, and they're aviation experts.

And you are an aviation expert?  Yeah sure
Don't Tread On Me!
 
Jerald01
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:47 am

Reading this thread reminds me that we too often do not take time to thank those who work in the background to keep 'em flying. So, to all the fuel fillers, baggage bangers, and dumper pumpers, here is a hearty.....

Thank You !
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
It is a well documented fact that aircraft shed ice on occasion.

I agree 100%. That was actually my point. When ice builds up on an aircraft if ti doesn't shed it would crash. But when it does shed it's happening often. I said that any accumilation of over an inch would likely bring a plane down, a piece of ice 1" thick would be too fragile to survive that kind of fall, and for those reasons it wasn't likely to have come from an aircraft.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
Care to provide links to these?

No, I don't have links for those. Those are all reasonable possibilities that shouldn't require links. Would I have to provide a link saing that a brake leak could cause a car to crash?

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Just came on the ABC 30 11pm news here saying that a piece of Ice fell off of an American Airlines MD83 aircraft taking off at the 7:50am departure I would guess.

There has not been any clouds in the sky for 4 days now.

Its ice from something and they said an aircraft because he lives by the airport.

If it was taking off (assuming you're a local and are familiar with the flights, thus correct) and there was no weather, where would the ice have come from? Not from the aircraft, becasue if there was ice like that on the aircraft there's absolutly no way it would not have been deiced.

And this is all based on an assumption by "some guy"? I know if something came through my roof I'd be pissed too. And if I dind't know any better I'd say it might be from aircraft too. They occasionally fly over my house.

Bottom line is there is no proof at all, and in my opinion some proof against, that this was not from an aircraft. Yes, as I said before it is a POSSIBILITY, but there are other more likely options.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
And you are an aviation expert?

Nope, just an adult exercising logic. I have been in aviation for years, and do hold a single engine privates license, but do not proclaim to be an expert. Reports like this are a result of the general population and (with a very few exceptions) the news reporters having no familarity with aviation. It makes it easy for them to blame something they don't understand, it's human nature.
 
hiflyer
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:31 am

First off the entire valley that KFAT sits in has been under freeze warnings for days due to nonseasonal low temps...most of you do watch the news and have seen all the reporters trudging thru orange groves near Fresno last few days...right? Ice will form on an aircraft skin during such temps fairly easily especially if the aircraft overnights as I believe the early dept to DFW for AA does. I am equally sure that KFAT is a non mtc station for AMR. A lot of MD80 series operators at non mtc stations have the crew check the wings with a step ladder...or if the ground handler is qualified then they will do it. I would have doubts that KFAT has even one deice truck on the property by the way....or glycol. So...it is entirely plausible that there was an ice buildup somewhere on a noncontrol surface that was not removed prior to flight and came off as air speed increased as well as angle of attack.
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:40 am

What was the humidity like? I don't watch TV very often, and don't pay attention to the weather other then if its cold or hot, wet or dry outside unless I'm flying. The original poster said there was no weather. Now it may have been cold as you said. But was there moisture present to cause the icing? And for a chuck of ice there would likely (and I am assuming here) have to be precipitation. Nothing in this story really adds up to conclude an aircraft dropping ice. Just because something fell from the sky doesn't mean it was from an aircraft. If that's the case theres been quite a few people shot in the head over the years by unarmed aircraft.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
A leaking toilet service drain at FL330 caused ice to be ingested in the no. 3 engine. The first stage fanblades failed and the engine suddenly stopped. Due to the excessive loads, the engine separated from the fuselage. A succesfull emergency landing was carried out at Houston.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740430-0〈=en


While cruising at FL350 in clear smooth air, a loud noise was heard, accompanied by a severe jolt as the no. 3 engine separated from its mounts.
It appeared that the forward lavatory was leaking deodorant fluid and water. Leakage of the lavatory waste drain valve was the result of a damaged "O" ring seal. Frozen fluid and water was ingested by the no. 3 engine. Fanblades failed and the engine broke away due to overload forces.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/...1;=en

Why did 727's always seem to shed engines due to blue ice near my home town of El Paso, TX?  Confused I remember the second incedent, the AA one near LRU, from junior high...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 14):
I agree 100%. That was actually my point. When ice builds up on an aircraft if ti doesn't shed it would crash. But when it does shed it's happening often. I said that any accumilation of over an inch would likely bring a plane down, a piece of ice 1" thick would be too fragile to survive that kind of fall, and for those reasons it wasn't likely to have come from an aircraft.

Assuming that this was more likely from a landing and not a takeoff you would be quite incorrect in your assumptions. Lufthansa in reply 9 provided the most complete and probably explanation for a large piece of ice falling from an aircraft.

This has happened on the landing approaches to YVR as well. You just don't get blue-coloured ice falling from the sky from a huge variety of sources.
 
pygmalion
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:30 am

Wait a day or two and then look here for a report:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/

Usually takes a day or so before the FAA gets the report and posts it.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
I remember the second incedent, the AA one near LRU, from junior high...

I do as well, 1985 or so, IIRC... They found the engine by letting it sit on the desert floor during the daytime, and after soaking up the heat, they went back looking for it at night with IR equipment (very high-tech back in the mid-1980s), and they found it..

When they landed in SAN, the aircraft looked something like this, albeit at night..


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Harrison


And just so everyone see what caused all this, take a look at this lav aceess panel of a 737 (same set-up as the 727):



[Edited 2007-01-19 03:05:52]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 20):
When they landed in SAN, the aircraft looked something like this, albeit at night..

Imagine being the person who made the squawk sheet entry for that!!!  rotfl 

Is an inflight engine shutdown an NTSB reportable problem? As I recall with the AA incedent, the flight crew thought it was just an in flight shutdown until they taxied to the gate, sans engine...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
KELPkid
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RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 20):
They found the engine by letting it sit on the desert floor during the daytime, and after soaking up the heat, they went back looking for it at night with IR equipment (very high-tech back in the mid-1980s), and they found it..

Knowing the area of desert it was found in: I'm suprised that it didn't come back riddled with bullet holes. This is the part of the world that nearby residents take 4 wheel drive vehicles out for fun (along with guns and beer cans  Wink ), and everything out there gets shot up. Doña Ana county actually tried putting up road signs on the dirt roads out there, and they looked like swiss cheese after a few months...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
smashme33
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:34 pm

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
There have been at least 27 documented incidents of blue ice impacts in the U.S. between 1979 and 2003

All those unlucky recipients of lav juice....yuk!
 yuck 
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Big Ice Piece From Aircraft Falls In FAT!

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 21):
Is an inflight engine shutdown an NTSB reportable problem?

Depends...

If one engine on an aircraft over 12,500 lbs. is inop/shutdown, no. If two engines are inop/shutdown (and we're obviously talking a 3- or 4-engined aircraft here), yes, it's an immediate notification item under NTSB 830.5

Sec. 830.5 Immediate notification.


The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not
operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United
States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most
expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation
Safety Board (Board) field office 1 when:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 The Board field offices are listed under U.S. Government in the
telephone directories of the following cities: Anchorage, AK, Atlanta,
GA, West Chicago, IL, Denver, CO, Arlington, TX, Gardena (Los Angeles),
CA, Miami, FL, Parsippany, NJ (metropolitan New York, NY), Seattle, WA,
and Washington, DC.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed incidents
occur:
(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;
(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform normal
flight duties as a result of injury or illness;
(3) Failure of structural components of a turbine engine excluding
compressor and turbine blades and vanes;
(4) In-flight fire; or
(5) Aircraft collide in flight.
(6) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed
$25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value
in the event of total loss, whichever is less.
(7) For large multiengine aircraft (more than 12,500 pounds maximum
certificated takeoff weight):

[[Page 205]]

(i) In-flight failure of electrical systems which requires the
sustained use of an emergency bus powered by a back-up source such as a
battery, auxiliary power unit, or air-driven generator to retain flight
control or essential instruments;
(ii) In-flight failure of hydraulic systems that results in
sustained reliance on the sole remaining hydraulic or mechanical system
for movement of flight control surfaces;
(iii) Sustained loss of the power or thrust produced by two or more
engines
; and
(iv) An evacuation of an aircraft in which an emergency egress
system is utilized.
(b) An aircraft is overdue and is believed to have been involved in
an accident.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.