panamair
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Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:30 pm

Well, looks like DL will switch its 2008 China application to PVG instead of PEK:

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ories/2007/01/18/0119bizdelta.html

Rather inevitable, I suppose, given the recent route award to UA for another PEK route. This will put it squarely against CO's EWR-PVG (I assume CO will resubmit EWR-PVG), which, IMO, will probably wiin out over DL's ATL application, simply because of the strengths of the NYC market (witness a repeat performance of the previous award to AA for ORD-PVG...)
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:43 pm

with this intense competition, would it be more competitive for DL to apply for LAX-PVG or PEK?
That would launch their rumoured LAX hub and start expanding from there.
I think the ATL-China flights could wait.
 
Delta787
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 1):
with this intense competition, would it be more competitive for DL to apply for LAX-PVG or PEK?
That would launch their rumoured LAX hub and start expanding from there.

LAX is thinking about taking gates away from Delta at LAX. Launching a China route from there is probably not the best idea right now.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:49 am

Given that CO already has a China route as well as AA, UA and NW, I think DL is wise to switch from Beijing (PEK) to Shanghai (PVG). This change isn't late in the game due to a disagreement with the pilots as was the case with the change AA made on their application for this last round of incumbents. Adding an ATL connection into the Chinese mainland is a sound idea. Keep in mind that all three of China's big carriers already serve LAX or NYC-JFK. Eventually they'll get U.S. flag carriers, but in subsequent years during the incumbency process is more likely. I think DL is taking prudent steps early to insure they will come out on top in 2008.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 1):
with this intense competition, would it be more competitive for DL to apply for LAX-PVG or PEK?
That would launch their rumoured LAX hub and start expanding from there.
I think the ATL-China flights could wait.

The Southeast is the nation's fastest growing area, and the only region without nonstop service to China. Delta has offered to provide the most on-line connecting service and would serve more cities, and provide more communities with their first nonstop-to nonstop connections to China. ATL makes tremendously more sense than LAX.
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 4):
The Southeast is the nation's fastest growing area, and the only region without nonstop service to China. Delta has offered to provide the most on-line connecting service and would serve more cities, and provide more communities with their first nonstop-to nonstop connections to China. ATL makes tremendously more sense than LAX.

 checkmark  I think ATL-PVG for starters and then perhaps in a later incumbent filing adding and LAX-PEK route. But the key right now is making a case to USDOT early next year and they are trying hard to do it. As I said above, LAX along with NYC-JFK&EWR are covered by some of the big Chines airlines as it is. Getting a U.S. Flag carrier into one of these two big gateways is redundant in its appearance. the official DL press release:
http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10525
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:03 am

DL wont do the route from LAX. Why compete with all the major asian carriers at LAX when you can go from a competition free ATL?
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commavia
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:09 am

Personally, I don't see the switch from PEK to PVG making much of a difference. At least from my perspective, Delta has the 2008 authority locked up no matter which city if chooses to fly to. Not only would an ATL-China route link the world's largest hub with one of the world's fastest-growing economies, and provide a direct link to said country from the southern U.S. for the first time, but Delta will be the only serious new-entrant applicant to 2008: American, Continental, Northwest and United all already fly there.

Unless Delta really, really screws it up (a la American/APA), I think they've got it.
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:10 am

The NYC market might be served already, but putting another US carrier in the game serves everyone better, as it increases competition on the routes. Beating CO's application from EWR will be tough those. Although ATL has a tremendous amount of domestic connections, CO and COEX serve just about every major city in the US, and a pretty sizable. Sure ATL has more connections, but we're looking at:

1. CO @ EWR - huge O&D, large amount of connections
2. DL @ ATL - some O&D, huge amount of connections

So basically, CO's service would satisfy both requirements. CO and COEX also serve a lot of destinations in the southeast from EWR.
 
Delta787
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 8):
1. CO @ EWR - huge O&D, large amount of connections
2. DL @ ATL - some O&D, huge amount of connections

So basically, CO's service would satisfy both requirements. CO and COEX also serve a lot of destinations in the southeast from EWR.

Its not just about that. Its also about increasing service to China by allowing a brand new airline into the mix.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
DL wont do the route from LAX. Why compete with all the major asian carriers at LAX when you can go from a competition free ATL?

Last time Delta applied for an ATL-China route, DOT established that there were only 9 passengers per day that travel between Atlanta and the whole of China and that 72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.

On the other hand, LAX generates more O&D to China than any other US city, accounting for just over a third of the total traffic.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):
On the other hand, LAX generates more O&D to China than any other US city, accounting for just over a third of the total traffic.

LAX also has China Eastern, China Southern as well as China Airlines serving them.
It would be redundant for DL or any other U.S. Flag carrier to get into the Los Angeles or NYC gateways to China. I see LAX, JFK, EWR gaining service from an incumbent U.S. flag carrier application perhaps in 2009.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):
Last time Delta applied for an ATL-China route, DOT established that there were only 9 passengers per day that travel between Atlanta and the whole of China and that 72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.

Which is why I see DL has an uphill battle--while I am not a DL fan and an even bigger NON-Atlanta fan I would like to see them get the route to increase the competition. I don't see how the numbers could have dramatically improved in the past few years to prove to DOT.
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DFWEagle
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 11):
LAX also has China Eastern, China Southern as well as China Airlines serving them.
It would be redundant for DL or any other U.S. Flag carrier to get into the Los Angeles or NYC gateways to China. I see LAX, JFK, EWR gaining service from an incumbent U.S. flag carrier application perhaps in 2009.

I completely agree with you.

US carriers are unlikely to get service from LAX in the short term because the DOT is unlikely to grant it (because the market is already served). It is not because the US carriers are worried about competition from the Chinese airlines – the market is large enough to support them both.

BTW China Airlines is from Taiwan which is an entirely separate market. I’m sure you meant Air China, which flies LAX-PEK daily.  Smile

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 12):
Which is why I see DL has an uphill battle--while I am not a DL fan and an even bigger NON-Atlanta fan I would like to see them get the route to increase the competition. I don't see how the numbers could have dramatically improved in the past few years to prove to DOT.

DL has a major advantage in the fact that they are new entrant to the market and the DOT has an opportunity to designate a new carrier in the market. I think that DL has by far the best chance at winning the 2008 authority.
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 13):
BTW China Airlines is from Taiwan which is an entirely separate market. I'm sure you meant Air China, which flies LAX-PEK daily.  smile 

 checkmark  Yes, I meant one of the big three from the mainland. Taiwan is completely different!
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:07 am

The 2008 route will probably go to a cargo airline. Since it is open to all carriers (scheduled, charter and cargo), I foresee it going to a cargo one.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 13):
US carriers are unlikely to get service from LAX in the short term because the DOT is unlikely to grant it (because the market is already served). It is not because the US carriers are worried about competition from the Chinese airlines – the market is large enough to support them both.

I think LAX could get the route. The DOT doesnt care about the Chineese Carriers. But I dont think we will see any US based carrier trying to fly from LAX because the competition is so stiff.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 15):
The 2008 route will probably go to a cargo airline. Since it is open to all carriers (scheduled, charter and cargo), I foresee it going to a cargo one.

I believe they have split the passenger and cargo operations as far as application for entry. It used to be that FedEx and UPS would have to compete with the passenger operators, but that is no longer the case.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 13):
It is not because the US carriers are worried about competition from the Chinese airlines -- the market is large enough to support them both.

 checkmark  The Chinese just want to make sure they're big three are up to international standards, and in their view they haven't been so hence the regulation of new authorities.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 13):
DL has a major advantage in the fact that they are new entrant to the market and the DOT has an opportunity to designate a new carrier in the market. I think that DL has by far the best chance at winning the 2008 authority.

Which is why many are saying it is DL's to screw up.
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DFWEagle
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 15):
The 2008 route will probably go to a cargo airline. Since it is open to all carriers (scheduled, charter and cargo), I foresee it going to a cargo one.

Cargo frequencies are allocated separately to combination frequencies. In 2008, 7 weekly combination frequencies and 15 weekly cargo frequencies become available.

The same was true for the 2007 proceedings and 4 cargo frequencies were awarded each to Federal Express, Northwest Airlines and Polar Air Cargo. The remaining three are still unclaimed and anyone can apply for those three whenever they like.
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:16 am

Are UA expected to bid SFO-CAN again? (Not that I think UA will win again in 2008. I think CO have the strongest application.)
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 18):
The remaining three are still unclaimed and anyone can apply for those three whenever they like.

Surprised UPS hasn't made a move on one of these. They have a large Asia hub in the Philippines.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:20 am

I definitely think DL will have a good chance for this one. I think the only real competition will be CO from EWR. UA/NW will have no chance. AA might have a chance, but they'd better get their act together so they don't screw it up like the most recent proceeding.

One note to DL management, when you show a map of all the connecting possibilities for the China service, you might not want to include markets that you no longer serve (ISO, HKY, CMI).
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
I think LAX could get the route. The DOT doesnt care about the Chineese Carriers. But I dont think we will see any US based carrier trying to fly from LAX because the competition is so stiff.

The whole reason that China insists the market is so restricted is because the Chinese carriers would never stand a chance in competing against the US carriers. The competition coming from the mainland Chinese airlines would not be stiff – they are simply not competitive airlines.

Also, the DOT does care about Chinese Airlines – they cited China Eastern’s JFK-PVG route when justifying their decision to deny CO the 2007 frequencies.
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 22):
Also, the DOT does care about Chinese Airlines -- they cited China Eastern's JFK-PVG route when justifying their decision to deny CO the 2007 frequencies.

Which is why CO probably wont get the EWR-PVG route until 2009 at the earliest.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 22):
The competition coming from the mainland Chinese airlines would not be stiff – they are simply not competitive airlines.

They are competitve when it comes to the dollar amount they charge. CZ, CA, and MU are always the cheapest out of LAX. Their service sux, but they are cheaper and people will fly them if they are the cheapest.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):
Last time Delta applied for an ATL-China route, DOT established that there were only 9 passengers per day that travel between Atlanta and the whole of China and that 72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.

Actually, the DOT, on page 23 of the Show Cause Order, stated that it believed “…American and Delta have the strongest proposals of all the applicants for the 2006 award.”

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 12):
Which is why I see DL has an uphill battle--while I am not a DL fan and an even bigger NON-Atlanta fan I would like to see them get the route to increase the competition. I don't see how the numbers could have dramatically improved in the past few years to prove to DOT.

The mistake you are making is looking at it purely as an O/D market (although given the trade agreements the State of Georgia alone has negotiated with China GA alone likely could support a nonstop), and not as a regional connection marketplace.
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 24):
They are competitve when it comes to the dollar amount they charge. CZ, CA, and MU are always the cheapest out of LAX. Their service sux, but they are cheaper and people will fly them if they are the cheapest.

Low yielding economy passengers will fly them. First and Business class passengers will be more reluctant if they have a choice, and this is where the money is to be made  Wink

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Surprised UPS hasn't made a move on one of these. They have a large Asia hub in the Philippines.

Is UPS a designated carrier in the USA-China cargo market? Like the combination frequencies, only incumbent carriers were permitted to apply. I’m not sure if UPS already serves China or not.
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 26):
Is UPS a designated carrier in the USA-China cargo market? Like the combination frequencies, only incumbent carriers were permitted to apply. I’m not sure if UPS already serves China or not.

Yes UPS does serve China. They were awarded the frequencies in either 2003 or 2004 IIRC.
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drerx7
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):
72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 25):
The mistake you are making is looking at it purely as an O/D market (although given the trade agreements the State of Georgia alone has negotiated with China GA alone likely could support a nonstop), and not as a regional connection marketplace.

ATL hasn't dramatically changed that since then. I would say that the strength from DLs application is the fact that it is a new entrant--CO and others offer connection opportunities just like ATL does.
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positiverate
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 28):
ATL hasn't dramatically changed that since then.

From a cargo market? It has grown leaps and bounds. From a passenger market, it has grown too.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 28):
I would say that the strength from DLs application is the fact that it is a new entrant--CO and others offer connection opportunities just like ATL does.

DOT, in its Show Cause for the 2006 award, doesn't agree with you: page 25 of the Order states the following:

“The record shows that Delta has offered to provide the most on-line connecting service in this proceeding. Compared to American, Delta would serve more cities, provide more communities with first nonstop-to nonstop connections to China, and provide more flights to the Southeast region of the United States…”
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 29):
DOT, in its Show Cause for the 2006 award, doesn't agree with you: page 25 of the Order states the following:

“The record shows that Delta has offered to provide the most on-line connecting service in this proceeding. Compared to American, Delta would serve more cities, provide more communities with first nonstop-to nonstop connections to China, and provide more flights to the Southeast region of the United States…”

That did not do them much good in the end though – they lost the case  Wink

Yes – they connect more cities with non-stop to non-stop connections to China. However, that is largely irrelevant if no-one from those cities ever goes to China. DOT said 72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to the whole of China.

The most recent data I have available for the top US O/D cities for travel to China is from 2004 -:

LAX 34.8%
NYC 16.4%
SFO 15.0%
ORD 3.3%
HNL 3.1%
BOS 2.8%
IAD 2.2%
SEA 1.7%

The geographic position of ATL makes it undesirable to connect from most (if not all) of these markets to China. The largest (and only significant) market that ATL is reasonably well positioned to serve is Miami, which still has less than 15 passengers per day to China.

I say again – I think Delta will win the 2008 award. However, the main strength of their application will be that they are a new carrier – not the fact that they are using Atlanta as a gateway.
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 30):
I say again – I think Delta will win the 2008 award. However, the main strength of their application will be that they are a new carrier – not the fact that they are using Atlanta as a gateway.

My sentiments exactly
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:33 am

ATL is the world's largest hub.... DL has created ATL as the first US carrier gateway to Africa. (there will be more soon), it is a huge hub for Europe, and it is also one of the largest gateways to Latin America despite DL being a relatively latecomer to the region. DL’s ATLNRT flight is one of the highest revenue among US airlines and ATLICN has been operating for less than 5 years and it now supports as many as 600 seats per day. There simply is no basis to say that ATL cannot support any route to anywhere in the world. Further, ATL is such a powerful hub that no other hub that can connect China to the rest of the world. China to Latin America is expected to be one of the fastest growing regions in the world – and DL is well positioned to serve it through ATL. Many of the domestic markets can be served just as well through ATL as they can from EWR or other gateways. DL is substantially better equipped to compete in the China market than it was even 2 years ago.

And while the NYC market may be larger to China than ATL, part of the DOT’s responsibility is to develop new trade links. And while HKG is not a part of this route application, CO does have EWRHKG as well as EWRPEK service. It is a lot harder for CO to argue that it is opening up completely new markets when it already has a fairly decent presence to Asia from EWR – on par with UA’s offerings from ORD in terms of nonstop destinations served.

AA isn’t out of this game either. They will try to recover but the value of their DFWPEK proposal was weakened by UA’s award since the SE is pretty well covered by connecting service on UA airlines via ORD, EWR, and IAD. They could try for DFWPVG but they will be at a disadvantage since they already have ORDPVG while DL can offer both a new carrier and a new region to China.

DL said it would operate the route with a 777 – but did not specify that it would be an LR. The ER could make it but all are currently deployed (but that just might change). While the LR could be an advantage in DL’s proposal because of its cargo lift, DL might be willing to deploy the LR on another route and use an ER – since that is the same aircraft every other airline except for NW would use on any new China route – and NW is at a disadvantage since ORD is well served to China and NW does have China rights even if they do use them from NRT.

DL obviously announced its ATLPVG route application so it could spend the next 9-10 months in a very aggressive public relations and Washington campaign. This process should be fun to watch.
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 30):
The most recent data I have available for the top US O/D cities for travel to China is from 2004 -:

LAX 34.8%
NYC 16.4%
SFO 15.0%
ORD 3.3%
HNL 3.1%
BOS 2.8%
IAD 2.2%
SEA 1.7%

ATL has a whole slough of smaller more moderate sized markets they connect with that can feed into a ATL-PVG connection, not to mention south Florida. Seattle has no China service as of yet despite being almost as significant as Washington, DC and Boston. None of the big three Chinese carriers; CA, CZ, MU have touched it due to its proximity to YVR just up across the border on I-5. SEA would also be a candidate for a subsequent route authority to an incumbent carrier in the years ahead I would suppose. A merged DL/NW would probably jump on this one, although AA could look at it if they were ever able to acquire AS.

[Edited 2007-01-19 22:39:08]

[Edited 2007-01-19 22:45:25]
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 33):
ATL has a whole slough of smaller more moderate sized markets they connect with that can feed into a ATL-PVG connection, not to mention south Florida.

However, folks keep omitting the fact that...

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 28):
Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):
72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.

I'm sure that number may have grown, but not substantially. I'm sure a DL route to ATL would work (they'd make it work) but they have to convince the DOT of that. I believe that DL will win the award based on they are a new incumbant. The SIGNIFICANT connection opportunities in ATL can still be had via other carriers through other hubs.
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
ATL is the world's largest hub.... DL has created ATL as the first US carrier gateway to Africa. (there will be more soon), it is a huge hub for Europe, and it is also one of the largest gateways to Latin America despite DL being a relatively latecomer to the region. DL’s ATLNRT flight is one of the highest revenue among US airlines and ATLICN has been operating for less than 5 years and it now supports as many as 600 seats per day. There simply is no basis to say that ATL cannot support any route to anywhere in the world

I am sure ATL-PVG would be profitable – the very nature of such a restricted market means that almost any USA-China flight would make money. This is especially true because of the exceedingly high cargo demand, of which a significant portion originates in ATL.

My comments above were not referring to the commercial viability of an ATL-China route but the relative public benefit such a route would offer in the eyes of the DOT. On selecting a carrier to award frequencies, the DOT pays more attention to this rather than the potential for profits for the airline.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 34):
I'm sure a DL route to ATL would work (they'd make it work) but they have to convince the DOT of that.

Exactly
Ryan / HKG
 
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Personally, I don't see the switch from PEK to PVG making much of a difference. At least from my perspective, Delta has the 2008 authority locked up no matter which city if chooses to fly t

I wouldn't be so sure about that one...... where DL will get aircraft for this is another question in and of itself, but the bigger issue is:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 10):

Last time Delta applied for an ATL-China route, DOT established that there were only 9 passengers per day that travel between Atlanta and the whole of China and that 72 of the connecting markets that DL proposed had less than one passenger per day travelling to China.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Are UA expected to bid SFO-CAN again?

While everyone would be quick to discount UA, they are the most proven US airline in routes to asia, moreover there is significant service between the US and PEK and PVG, but not to the very important and quickly growing area of CAN.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 23):
Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 22):
Also, the DOT does care about Chinese Airlines -- they cited China Eastern's JFK-PVG route when justifying their decision to deny CO the 2007 frequencies.

Which is why CO probably wont get the EWR-PVG route until 2009 at the earliest.

Uhhh, I was under the impression that China Eastern is heavily cutting down their frequencies on that route, so I would not be so sure.

CO is gifted somehow with getting their way too when it comes to stuff like this as well, and I feel their application is simply stronger from EWR-PVG than DL's from ATL-PVG is.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
commavia
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
AA isn’t out of this game either. They will try to recover but the value of their DFWPEK proposal was weakened by UA’s award since the SE is pretty well covered by connecting service on UA airlines via ORD, EWR, and IAD.

Personally, I see AA trying for LAX-PEK the next time around. It would serve a vast O&D market, eliminate any potential pilot union issues as it is well within existing flying limits, and give AA the ability to play off the glaring omission of a single U.S. carrier from the LAX-China market.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
China to Latin America is expected to be one of the fastest growing regions in the world – and DL is well positioned to serve it through ATL.

However, the DOT will not consider this in their decision making process. In fact, you'll notice in DL's initial application they only show connections to domestic markets, because they know the DOT doesn't factor in passengers going China-ATL-Latin America.
 
Delta787
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 36):
where DL will get aircraft for this is another question in and of itself

They have 2 Boeing 777-200LRs on the way in 2008.
Fly Delta!
 
rwsea
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 33):
None of the big three Chinese carriers; CA, CZ, MU have touched it due to its proximity to YVR just up across the border on I-5.

MU actually served SEA in the 1990s with service to PVG. Service was with an M11 if I remember correctly. It may have continued on to the NYC area, but I'm not 100% sure. Not sure why the route was ended.

Would be nice to get service to China back. The best options currently are NW through NRT or UA through SFO. All the new service added in the few years has been worthless to those of us on the West Coast.

SEA-China would be a great market for NW if the bilateral opened up in the future and more frequencies were available.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 30):
LAX 34.8%
NYC 16.4%
SFO 15.0%
ORD 3.3%
HNL 3.1%
BOS 2.8%
IAD 2.2%
SEA 1.7%

The geographic position of ATL makes it undesirable to connect from most (if not all) of these markets to China. The largest (and only significant) market that ATL is reasonably well positioned to serve is Miami, which still has less than 15 passengers per day to China.

The above data makes me wonder why US carriers shy away from LAX when serveing Asia (except NRT). The market is astronomically larger than anywhere else in the US. Competition is tough, I guess thats the only reason.

I love DL and ATL, but I have to say that ATL is poorly located for travel to Asia (unless we are talking about traffic between Latin America and Asia). The route will be DL's, but I agree that ATL has nothing to do with why they will get the route. It will simply be because they dont serve China already. It doesnt matter that ATL is the size that it is, ATL is horribly positioned for Aisan traffic except to Florida and Georgia and the surrounding states (not to mention the market for traffic to China is poor). But that being said, the route will be DL's in 2008.
It is what it is...
 
SESGDL
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 41):
I love DL and ATL, but I have to say that ATL is poorly located for travel to Asia (unless we are talking about traffic between Latin America and Asia). The route will be DL's, but I agree that ATL has nothing to do with why they will get the route. It will simply be because they dont serve China already. It doesnt matter that ATL is the size that it is, ATL is horribly positioned for Aisan traffic except to Florida and Georgia and the surrounding states (not to mention the market for traffic to China is poor). But that being said, the route will be DL's in 2008.

I don't agree completely with ATL having a bad location. There are people who will travel from places like PHL, Baltimore/D.C. Area, Norfolk, Richmond, Raleigh/Durham, all of Florida and even the Midwest through ATL to go to China. They already do to go to NRT and ICN. People may not want to connect from IND-ATL-LAX out of their way, but they are much more obliged to travel IND-ATL-PVG. Of course there's the aforementioned Latin America and South America traffic which will be there as well. I think the route will be incredibly successful if they get the authority.

Jeremy
 
rwsea
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 41):
The above data makes me wonder why US carriers shy away from LAX when serveing Asia (except NRT). The market is astronomically larger than anywhere else in the US. Competition is tough, I guess thats the only reason.

It's pretty unfortunate - US carriers only want to add flights to their hubs. Cities like LAX, SEA, and BOS miss out because they aren't major hubs for any carrier, but definitely have lots of demand.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 41):
love DL and ATL, but I have to say that ATL is poorly located for travel to Asia (unless we are talking about traffic between Latin America and Asia).

Agreed. They would really be serving alot more Americans if they chose LAX. The DOT doesn't give much weight to Latin American connections, and if you think about it, they really shouldn't use that as a deciding factor. Many other countries could add flights to China more readily than in the US.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 42):
Of course there's the aforementioned Latin America and South America traffic which will be there as well.

ATL is in a good location for Latin American-Asia Travel.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 42):
I don't agree completely with ATL having a bad location. There are people who will travel from places like PHL, Baltimore/D.C. Area, Norfolk, Richmond, Raleigh/Durham, all of Florida and even the Midwest through ATL to go to China. They already do to go to NRT and ICN. People may not want to connect from IND-ATL-LAX out of their way, but they are much more obliged to travel IND-ATL-PVG.

That doesnt make it a good location. ORD is in a much better location. Naturally Im am speaking strictly from a geographic perspective. Most of these cities have to back track a bit.
It is what it is...
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 35):
On selecting a carrier to award frequencies, the DOT pays more attention to this rather than the potential for profits for the airline.

the point is that ATL's transpacific service generates very high amounts of revenue so there is obviously a market there... if DL and KE's existing ATL transpac flights were a bomb, then there would be basis to say that ATL-China woudn't work but there is alot more service from the US to Japan and Korea from "better positioned" gateways yet DL manages to do just fine from ATL.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 38):
the DOT doesn't factor in passengers going China-ATL-Latin America.

but DL knows how much traffic it will carry between those regions.. and I still say no other potential China gateway is better positioned to capture those kinds of int'l traffic flows.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 41):
ATL is horribly positioned for Aisan traffic except to Florida and Georgia and the surrounding states (not to mention the market for traffic to China is poor).

again, let's not discount DL and KE's performance... 300 additional miles is nothing on a 7500 mile route. the ability to quickly connect traffic is far more important and ATL is able to connect int'l flights to hundreds of domestic destinations all under one roof -without going through security. try that in ORD.

You folks will be flabbergasted when DL has ATL-NRT, ICN, PVG, TPE, HKG, DEL, BOM, DXB, and TLV service all within 3 years - I can assure you that no other airline/gateway will offer that kind of Asia portfolio.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 40):
Would be nice to get service to China back. The best options currently are NW through NRT or UA through SFO. All the new service added in the few years has been worthless to those of us on the West Coast.

Or drive north of the border to YVR; there is plenty of far east traffic in and out of there.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
let's not discount DL and KE's performance... 300 additional miles is nothing on a 7500 mile route. the ability to quickly connect traffic is far more important and ATL is able to connect int'l flights to hundreds of domestic destinations all under one roof -without going through security. try that in ORD.

You folks will be flabbergasted when DL has ATL-NRT, ICN, PVG, TPE, HKG, DEL, BOM, DXB, and TLV service all within 3 years - I can assure you that no other airline/gateway will offer that kind of Asia portfolio.

 checkmark  Everyone thinks that every carrier needs to tank up on LAX and/or JFK-EWR before anywhere else can realistically serve the public. The world around the USA doesn't revolve around those 2-3 airports.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 36):
Uhhh, I was under the impression that China Eastern is heavily cutting down their frequencies on that route, so I would not be so sure.

MU is merely reducing JFK frequencies. Since JFK isn't the best port of entry for Star Alliance carriers, I have a feeling it is more to UA cutting things back than anything. EWR might be more convenient in getting to mid-town Manhattan than from JFK, but that would be the only leg CO has for anything sooner than 2009 on that one, and I think that is grasping at best. CZ could just as easily serve PVG-EWR and have the SkyTeam connectivity needed that MU lacked with Star over at JFK.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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drerx7
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:21 am

I don't disagree with you WorldTraveler--when travelling 7500miles ATL is not really out of the way, and the route would definately be profitable because ATL has critical mass; however...

ATL offers no more service than what the other carriers can offer in terms of connections to the substantial markets via EWR, ORD, and to a lesser extent LAX(because LAX has direct service to many of the significant cities that would have a number of passengers to China). Another thing to consider is that almost any route to China will be profitable because its a restricted route.

I think that Delta will win the award based upon the fact that its a new entrant--being that the route is from ATL will probably have minimal impact on the DOTs decision, because they don't care about international connections from there. Now, to Delta, they know that they will have a good profitable product that connects China to Latin America as well as Birmingham and Jacksonville. Delta knows that they have some stiff competition from CO which is why they are hitting the ground running.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2008

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 46):
Everyone thinks that every carrier needs to tank up on LAX and/or JFK-EWR before anywhere else can realistically serve the public. The world around the USA doesn't revolve around those 2-3 airports.

No the world doesnt revolve around those airports, however the market in LA and NYC accounts for more than half of US O&D to China. The one thing LAX and the New York Airports have that ATL doesnt is competition. Connections are not that great at LAX either. If they do serve LAX with a route like that, they are catering to O&D instead of connections. If ATL serves a route to China they will catering to connections (since O&D at ATL-China is practically nil).
It is what it is...
 
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OA412
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RE: Delta To Apply For ATL-PVG Instead Of PEK In 2

Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 37):
Personally, I see AA trying for LAX-PEK the next time around.

I agree with this. In fact, I was a bit surprised that AA didn't opt to try for LAX-PEK this time around but, obviously, they felt that with DL not competing from ATL in this round, they had a much better chance of being awarded DFW-PEK. Had it not been for the pilot debacle and the revision of the application, IMHO they had a fairly good shot of winning this time around.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 38):
However, the DOT will not consider this in their decision making process. In fact, you'll notice in DL's initial application they only show connections to domestic markets, because they know the DOT doesn't factor in passengers going China-ATL-Latin America.

Agree with you here. While DL may figure that a certain number of passengers per day may fly Latin America-China via ATL, the DOT isn't really going to give this type of connection all that much weight when it makes its decision on who should be awarded rights to serve China. Besides, with the entry visa requirements currently in place, I doubt that this will be as lucrative of a market as it could potentially be.

Personally, I am a bit surprised that DL is not vying for JFK-PVG. Of course, I realize that they would be competing with CO's EWR-PVG application and the fact that CO is able to offer more connections via EWR than DL at JFK. However, given that DL would be a new-entrant in the US-China market, I believe that they would have the upper hand over CO in any NYC-PVG bid. Still, I agree with others that DL will have a good shot right from the start given that it will be the only major airline competing that does not already serve China. Just my 2 cents...

[Edited 2007-01-20 02:41:27]
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