jimyvr
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Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:43 pm

Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.
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Carpethead
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Probably get.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.

NRT slots are probably impossible but how about KIX or NGO.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:09 am

Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.


That's it? We need more from this. Canadian carriers are taking advantage of their maximum rights and Japan is Canada's number two source of overseas (non-U.S.) tourists.
 
jimyvr
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
That's it? We need more from this. Canadian carriers are taking advantage of their maximum rights and Japan is Canada's number two source of overseas (non-U.S.) tourists.

That's so far what the news are saying in Japan

Air Canada is sending their new largest plane - 777-300ER - to Tokyo, so they don't need to request for more on the passenger side
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
drgmobile
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:36 am

That's so far what the news are saying in Japan

Air Canada is sending their new largest plane - 777-300ER - to Tokyo, so they don't need to request for more on the passenger side


There's huge tourism growth potential. I guess it's not in Transat's radar screen, which is unfortunate, but they could do the same as they are with the UK and France. Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.
 
jimyvr
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):
Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

They can pretty much be handled through charter flights, which ANA runs it in Summer.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
sebring
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):

There's huge tourism growth potential. I guess it's not in Transat's radar screen, which is unfortunate, but they could do the same as they are with the UK and France. Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

You need the right fleet to fly the Pacific and Transat doesn't have it. Besides with its tour operator and travel agency businesses in Europe, why would it want to tackle Asia inbound? The problem with more Japan services in access to NRT. One could envision AC offering a Calgary-Tokyo flight, especially with a 787, but those slots are harder to come by than just about anything else in the industry worldwide. Right now, growth will come from AC moving both the YYZ and YVR flights to 777-300ERs which is another 150 passengers a day, or 55,000 passengers a year. When you consider the total current Japanese visits to Canada, that's about a 10% increase in inbound tourism right there. In the summer of 08, it might move a 777-300ER onto YVR-KIX for a further increase.

[Edited 2007-01-22 20:33:47]
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:13 am

YYC is not very attractive because although many Japanese visit Banff it's part of a longer tour of Canada, not a destination in itself. A typical tour would be something like arrival in Vancouver, then a domestic flight to Calgary/Banff, then Toronto for Niagara Fallas and then back to Japan. For that reason a flight to YYC makes no sense. I am aware that Canadian used to fly to YYC twice a week but the benefits of that flight are dubious.

I could see AC flying to NGO and FUK in addition to its existing flights at KIX and NRT.

Japanese travellers rarely stay at one location for a whole week and rarely take a trip that is longer than one week. So you have to fit a lot of sights in that one week period especially a destination that is as far as Canada.
 
jimyvr
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
it might move a 777-300ER onto YVR-KIX for a further increase

Doesn't sounds right if they abandon the 2nd daily 767 flight this year. But they'll move the daily 763 to 343 from 02AUG07 to 29SEP07, however.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
cayman
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
Right now, growth will come from AC moving both the YYZ and YVR flights to 777-300ERs which is another 150 passengers a day

Is it pretty much certain than the 773s will be placed on the YYz NRT route? That route is/will remain daily I assume. Also, isn't that route a good connection for AC with its YYZ GRU route?
 
sebring
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting CayMan (Reply 9):

Is it pretty much certain than the 773s will be placed on the YYz NRT route? That route is/will remain daily I assume. Also, isn't that route a good connection for AC with its YYZ GRU route?

Yes, yes and yes.
 
sebring
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:54 am

And we are little over a week away from the consolidation of AC operations at the expanded T1 with its new in-transit capability.
 
wolsingerjet
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:53 am

YYC-NRT has been tried and it was pulled as a result of ''low yield'',very full flight,but tourist's dont produce the bucks that airlines are looking for...We will likely continue to see charters by Japanese tour groups.ANA and JAL both flew charters to YYC(ANA,JAL) and YEG(ANA) in 2006.
Guess what???I dont like you either...
 
jamincan
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 11):
And we are little over a week away from the consolidation of AC operations at the expanded T1 with its new in-transit capability.

When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government. Apparently the one Vancouver has is still a pilot project. In any case, hopefully the gov't decides quickly.
 
yvrsr
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):
Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

Is this per year or decade? YYC may indeed deserve nonstop service, but the 500K Japanese through Calgary per year does not seem plausible. It corresponds to nearly 1400 per day = roughly 5 A340s full of people (280 per plane). Do you have source?
 
sebring
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):

When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government. Apparently the one Vancouver has is still a pilot project. In any case, hopefully the gov't decides quickly.

This would not seem to be the case.

See the following for procedures from Jan 30 onward.

No need to clear Canadian customs for either International to International or International to US.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/airport/toronto.html
 
hardiwv
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:47 pm

Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.

Rgs,
 
Jayce
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.

That would either be via YVR as they do with MEX or starting up a NRT-YYZ-GRU. Either way, it will be interesting.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
ANother
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.



Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
No need to clear Canadian customs for either International to International or International to US.

And I assume no need to clear Canadian customs for passengers in transit.
 
wolsingerjet
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 pm

My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.
Guess what???I dont like you either...
 
centrair
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 7):
I could see AC flying to NGO and FUK in addition to its existing flights at KIX and NRT.

NGO was dropped two years ago. If it comes back, it will be with a 787-8.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
ANother
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 19):
My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.

Would suspect YYZ - more high yield traffic.

I checked on great circle mapper and NRT-GRU via YYZ is the same distance as via NYC, 18526kms (and only 5kms longer than direct, if it was possible). Via YVR is an extra 76kms.
 
DYK
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
Would suspect YYZ - more high yield traffic.

Not so sure the yield would be much higher than YVR, assuming most passengers would have originated in either Japan or Brazil. Also JAL has been reluctant to enter new markets past few years and i dont think NRT-YYZ is lucrative?
My guess if was to happen it would be via YVR.
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hardiwv
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
Not so sure the yield would be much higher than YVR, assuming most passengers would have originated in either Japan or Brazil. Also JAL has been reluctant to enter new markets past few years and i dont think NRT-YYZ is lucrative?
My guess if was to happen it would be via YVR.



Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
I checked on great circle mapper and NRT-GRU via YYZ is the same distance as via NYC, 18526kms (and only 5kms longer than direct, if it was possible). Via YVR is an extra 76kms.



Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 19):
My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.

Very good points. The fact is that JAL's GRU-JFK route although doing well is suffering from fierce competition: 3 airlines operate 4 daily JFK-GRU (TAM, AA and DL), in addition to CO daily EWR-GRU. JAL has a good product but only operates 3 x week, so yields are under pressure.

In makes sense, therefore, to open up NRT-YYZ/YVR-GRU instead of the traditional via JFK route. Canada-Brazil route is currently a monopoly of AC YYZ-GRU daily, which is achieving excellent loads and yields, so JAL would certainly carve out an interesting market niche here.

Rgs,
 
centrair
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:34 pm

Maybe JL could downgrade NRT-JFK-GRU to a 773ER or even smaller and then add NRT-YYZ-GRU with a 773ER. Use the planes with the new F, C and Y and this might be even more an appeal.

Side note,
I was looking up NGO-YUL for an exchange program I work on. Man....PRICEY!!!! Only choices are NGO-SFO-YUL (UA) or NGO-DTW-YUL (NW). Used to be able to fly NGO-YVR-YUL and it underpriced the US carriers. Hope AC comes back.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
hardiwv
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 24):
Maybe JL could downgrade NRT-JFK-GRU to a 773ER or even smaller and then add NRT-YYZ-GRU with a 773ER. Use the planes with the new F, C and Y and this might be even more an appeal.

Since September 2006 JAL operates the refitted new cabins on its 3 x week GRU-JFK-NRT B747.

Rgs,
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:02 pm

NRT-YYZ-GRU makes more sense than from YVR because if JAL gets Fifth Freedom from YYZ at leas it can tap into the YYZ-GRU market whereas from YVR that market is nonexistant.
 
jamincan
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
See the following for procedures from Jan 30 onward.

No need to clear Canadian customs for either International to International or International to US.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin....html

What are Customs B? It doesn't sound like a typical customs hall based on the description for other situations where you must clear customs, but it sounds like you still need to show documentation &c.
 
DYK
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 26):
NRT-YYZ-GRU makes more sense than from YVR because if JAL gets Fifth Freedom from YYZ at leas it can tap into the YYZ-GRU market whereas from YVR that market is nonexistant.

What makes you say this? Do you have stats? I think this can be argued, obviously yvr not as large as the YYZ market but dont you think JAL would want a market with no competition, a market they serve any ways which would be more economical to set up. Also what is the point if the majority of the flights would be filled with Japanese or South Americans. Also the Vancouver to Japan market is much larger than the YYZ - Japan Market. Sorry but ca not agree with your statement
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
cayman
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):
When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government. Apparently the one Vancouver has is still a pilot project. In any case, hopefully the gov't decides quickly.

I think this is in reference to the need to obtain a transit visa. I remember reading that AC (and perhaps others airlines) were trying to establish a "sterile in transit area" in YYZ such that foreign nationals who would otherwise require a visa or a transit visa to enter Canada, would not require any such visa to transit through YYZ on intl to intl flights.

If they can get this it would be a HUGE plus for AC and an incredible competitive advantage over all US hubs, particulalry for latin American traffic. Virtually all latin american nationals require US visas, even for transit, and the process of obtaining US visas in those countries is cumbersome, expensive and some find it very intimidating.

All things being equal if AC can offer latin american pax connections to Europe/Asia etc through YYZ with no need for a visa or to even clear customs and immigration, well that would be a giant step up on US carriers. And a prime example of this is GRU to NRT and other Asian destinations. Brazilians are not happy, by and large, with US visa and immigration procedures and will en masse avoid it if there is an easier alternative.

It was my understanding that for some reason the Fed Govt established a pilot project 'sterile transit area' for YVR but what the above poster is saying is that it was a pilot project and as yet they have not agreed to the same for YYZ.

I suspect that although after Jan 30 intl to intl or intl to US pax will not have to 'clear" Canada Customs/Immigration, if they oterhwise need a visa to enter canada this will still be the case.

One hopes that AC and the GTAA can resolve this issue with the govt quickly.
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):
When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government

I was under the impression that Pearson was operated by an independant group and not the Government, I speak under correction. Thought it was run by the GTAA
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:30 pm

Int'l to Int'l pax connecting through YYZ T1 (not USA) follow these steps; Upon deplaning, pax go through a security screening a la LHR, DXB etc. before being released into the transit/gate area for their connecting flight.
Pretty standard stuff actually.

The only wrinkle is the Int'l to USA connection due to USA Preclearance procedures. These necessitate the pax pick up their luggage and go through USA Immigration/Customs before being released into the transit/gate area for their connecting flight.

This new convenience coupled with (hopefully) some relief in landing fees should really make YYZ attractive for more airlines.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 28):
What makes you say this? Do you have stats? I think this can be argued, obviously yvr not as large as the YYZ market but dont you think JAL would want a market with no competition, a market they serve any ways which would be more economical to set up. Also what is the point if the majority of the flights would be filled with Japanese or South Americans. Also the Vancouver to Japan market is much larger than the YYZ - Japan Market. Sorry but ca not agree with your statement

That's okay if you don't agree. Let me try to shed some light. JAL can already fill its planes from NRT-YVR and I would suspect unless they go double-daily (they fly 10 times a week in summer) or thrice a day there wont be room for the GRU-bound passengers. Doing YVR 3 times a day makes no sense, might as well launch YYZ to also have access to Ottawa and Montreal markets in addition to easy connections to BOS.

On the YVR-GRU traffic, you will have to trust me on this because there is no O&D traffic. No stats available because no airline flies the route. But look at the demographics of the YVR population, predominantly Asians, does not lend itself to family and friend traffic to GRU. JAL can easily do NRT-YVR double daily and start a NRT-YYZ service.

However, if JAL were to introduce KIX-YVR, then it could extend one flight to GRU. In that case, KIX-YVR, NRT-YVR and YVR-MEX, YVR-GRU could make sense. To be honest, GRU-YVR is a very long flight and I'd bet you JAL would not risk it. YYZ makes more sense no matter how you slice it becasue at least it could grab some of the O&D market as well.
 
Jayce
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 1999 10:36 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 32):
On the YVR-GRU traffic, you will have to trust me on this because there is no O&D traffic.

I disagree. There is a growing South American population in YVR as well as a large number of students travelling here to speak English. However, we know that O&D traffic alone does not justify a route. If that were the case, YVR would have non-stop flights to most Indian cities.

Way back when CP used to operate YVR-LIM. I believe there is a market from YVR to South America, and I would love to see JL open it up.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Jayce (Reply 33):
Way back when CP used to operate YVR-LIM. I believe there is a market from YVR to South America, and I would love to see JL open it up.

Take the population of greater Vancouver. Deduct the number of local people.
Less people of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Philippines, Indian, Pakistani, and Sri Lankan origin. Then deduct the number of Americans. Followed by deducting the number of Europeans including Germans, Polish and Britons. Don't stop there, continue deducting people of Middle Eastern origin. You are lucky if you are left with 5,000 Brazilians in Vancouver. The daily number of O&D traffic from YVR to GRU probably fits in the back seat of a car. Sorry...
 
ANother
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Jayce (Reply 33):
Way back when CP used to operate YVR-LIM. I believe there is a market from YVR to South America, and I would love to see JL open it up.

Much of CP's traffic was 6th freedom from TYO and HKG. Very little local traffic.

In the days the flight operated YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM-SCL-BUE (with 5ths on almost all Int'l sectors CP picked up quite a bit of this traffic.
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 35):
Much of CP's traffic was 6th freedom from TYO and HKG. Very little local traffic.

In the days the flight operated YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM-SCL-BUE (with 5ths on almost all Int'l sectors CP picked up quite a bit of this traffic.

Canadian Airlines never did Lima from YVR. All it's non-Asian flights including Sao Paulo, Lima and Mexico were from Toronto.
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Jayce (Reply 33):
Way back when CP used to operate YVR-LIM. I believe there is a market from YVR to South America, and I would love to see JL open it up.

That was YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL.

No it wouldn't work anyways
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 37):
That was YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL.

No it wouldn't work anyways

Sorry to be persistent on this one but it was never YVR-MEX it was YYZ-MEX, I am staring at the data in my ICAO Traffic by Flight Stages book.
 
yvr1968
Posts: 279
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:10 am

CP used to fly twice weekly YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE with a DC8-60 and then a DC10... that was way back in the 70s and 80s
 
wolsingerjet
Posts: 346
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting Jayce (Reply 33):
Way back when CP used to operate YVR-LIM. I believe there is a market from YVR to South America, and I would love to see JL open it up

Agreed,the south american market through YVR is growing.MX has its flights and JL offers MEX from YVR.Dont forget that a long time back Viasa even had charters from Caracas to YVR using DC-10's.Although the YYZ-GRU route is popular aswell and VG served it for many years as did VASP.If JL got 5th freedom it could be lucrative...
Guess what???I dont like you either...
 
ANother
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 36):
Canadian Airlines never did Lima from YVR. All it's non-Asian flights including Sao Paulo, Lima and Mexico were from Toronto.



Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 37):
That was YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL.



Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 38):
Sorry to be persistent on this one but it was never YVR-MEX it was YYZ-MEX, I am staring at the data in my ICAO Traffic by Flight Stages book.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 39):
CP used to fly twice weekly YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE with a DC8-60 and then a DC10... that was way back in the 70s and 80s

Some quotes from Peter Pigott's 'Wing Walkers - the rise and fall of Canada's other airline'.

P. 200 ... when Ottawa granded CPA permission to fly from Vancouver to Mexico.

P. 200 Not content with having CPA fly to Mexico, McConachie secured landing rights in Lima Peru and the first Vancouver - Mexico City - Lima flights began on October 24, 1953.

P. 201 In January 1954 TCA was given its Toronto-Mexico City service ... On November 1, 1955 it was agreed that in exchange for TCA's Toronto - Mexico City route, CPA would give up its Quebec City - North Shore network.

I personally flew CP Air from YVR via MEX to ACA in 1985. I think it was a DC8-43 (Empress of Buenos Aires). The flight continued to LIM, SCL and BUE.

Sorry - regardless of what you might think Canadian Pacific and CP Air served YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM-BUE-SCL and YYZ-MEX-LIM-SCL-BUE. When the Mexicans rescinded the 5th freedoms MEX-LIM, CP chose to close MEX and fly YVR-LIM-SCL-BUE. There was a connecting flight YYZ-LIM which 'hubbed' with the YVR service giving YYZ passengers access to SCL and BUE. I think the YYZ aircraft stayed on the ground until the YVR aircraft got back to LIM. Service was with DC8-43s/63s and DC10-30s.

[Edited 2007-01-23 22:33:27]typos

[Edited 2007-01-23 22:35:07]
 
drgmobile
Posts: 709
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:32 am

I was under the impression that Pearson was operated by an independant group and not the Government, I speak under correction. Thought it was run by the GTAA

Pearson is run by the GTAA but the government regulates such matters as whether or not in-transit passengers have to see a customs agent when they arrive in Canada.
 
Jayce
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 1999 10:36 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:33 am

So it's agreed, there once was a service from YVR to South America.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 34):
Take the population of greater Vancouver. Deduct the number of local people.
Less people of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Philippines, Indian, Pakistani, and Sri Lankan origin. Then deduct the number of Americans. Followed by deducting the number of Europeans including Germans, Polish and Britons. Don't stop there, continue deducting people of Middle Eastern origin. You are lucky if you are left with 5,000 Brazilians in Vancouver. The daily number of O&D traffic from YVR to GRU probably fits in the back seat of a car. Sorry...

You're forgetting that O&D traffic alone is not the basis that airlines use to come up with their route maps. There are numerous connections across the Pacific and to the rest of Canada from YVR.

Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 40):
Agreed,the south american market through YVR is growing.

A few years ago I did some work at an accounting office and we had quite a few Brazilian clients. The population of people from Central and South America in Vancouver is steadily growing. I think the route would work, especially if JL had it to themselves.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
jimyvr
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:58 am

1955 June
CP305 LIM-MEX-YVR-TYO-HKG DC6 (Day 2 from Lima, Day 3 from YVR, YVR-TYO arr 2 days later)
CP306 HKG-TYO-YVR-MEX-LIM DC6 (Day 6 from HKG)

CP307 YVR-TYO-HKG DC6 Day 7 (arr. Tokyo 2 days later)
CP308 HKG-TYO-YVR DC6 Day 3

CP301 YVR-HNL=Canton Is.=NAN-AKL-SYD DC6 Day 7, ar AKL/SYD 3 days later
CP302 SYD-AKL-NAN=Canton Is.=HNL-YVR DC6 Day 3, ar YVR 2 days later

= Flag stop segment
Vancouver-Sydney First Class Round trip fare 1215.00
Vancouver-Sydney Tourist Class Round trip fare 972.00

DC6B features Luxury Empress First Class, Thrifty Princess Tourist

1964 June
CP301 AMS-YEG-YVR-HNL-NAN-AKL-SYD (YVR-SYD segment shows Britannia Turboprop aircraft)
CP302 SYD-AKL-NAN-YVR-YEG-AMS (SYD-YVR segment - Britannia Turboprop aircraft)
no clear indication on the flight schedule however

CP401 CLX-MEX-YVR-TYO-HKG Day 3 from CLX DC8
CP401 EZE-SCL-CLX-MEX-YYC-YVR-TYO-HKG Day 6 from EZE DC8
CP402 HKG-TYO-YVR-YYC-MEX-CLX-SCL-EZE Day 7 DC8
CP402 HKG-TYO-YVR-YYC-MEX-CLX-SCL-EZE Day 5 DC8


1969 June
CP301 YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD Day DC8
CP302 SYD-NAN-HNL-YVR Day 6 DC8

CP401 YVR-TYO-HKG Day 357 DC8
CP402 TYO-YVR Day 3 DC8
CP402 HKG-TYO-YVR Day 257 DC8
CP421 YVR-TYO Day 2 DC8

CP402 complete routing:
HKG-TYO-YVR-YYC-MEX-CLX-SCL-EZE
CP421 complete routing:
EZE-SCL-CLX-MEX-YYC-YVR-TYO-HKG

CP402/421 same flight number via YVR to/from Asia and South America operates 1 weekly

[Edited 2007-01-24 00:06:08]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:50 am

Get real guys. You are talking about a route in the fifties and I'm talking in recent memory.
Also, continue dreaming about YVR South America. I'd be the first stunned person in Japan if that route ever became reality. Come on, surprise me.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 44):
You're forgetting that O&D traffic alone is not the basis that airlines use to come up with their route maps. There are numerous connections across the Pacific and to the rest of Canada from YVR.

I straight line between GRU and NRT passes directly over YYZ. GRU-YYZ-YYC is shorter than GRU-YVR-YYC although such domestic connections might not matter since there is no domestic oneworld or codeshare partner in Canada for JL to connect to. If connections to Canada from GRU are going to fill the plane and allow them to compete with AC they would be better off connecting to AA or AS because AC is going to best them on connections through AC. There are far more people travelling between YYZ and GRU compared to YVR and GRU and JL doesn't have a YYZ presence yet so a route which can add two new destinations but spreads the risk by linking the markets makes more sense. There is already a well used service on JL to YVR so there is less need to split the load between YVR and GRU. Also, while AC is building an international hub at YYZ the oneworld partners are also trying to do a bit of the same. There are more and more codeshares being placed on AA flights out of YYZ to the USA with oneworld partners. Recently MA inked a deal with AA to put their code on AA flights out of YYZ that connect with their BUD flight. With most of the oneworld partners flying into YYZ and more open skies argreements possibly being put in place JL may be able to take passengers connecting from Europe, the northern startes, and Hong Kong onwards to South America (GRU-YYZ-HKG is shorter than GRU-YVR-HKG). YYZ it already way out of the way travelling GRU-Europe, not so bad LIM-Europe but YVR is really out of the way.
 
DYK
Posts: 353
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 45):
Get real guys. You are talking about a route in the fifties and I'm talking in recent memory.
Also, continue dreaming about YVR South America. I'd be the first stunned person in Japan if that route ever became reality. Come on, surprise me.

Strange things have happened? Lets hope you will be stunned?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 46):
Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 44):
You're forgetting that O&D traffic alone is not the basis that airlines use to come up with their route maps. There are numerous connections across the Pacific and to the rest of Canada from YVR.

I straight line between GRU and NRT passes directly over YYZ. GRU-YYZ-YYC is shorter than GRU-YVR-YYC although such domestic connections might not matter since there is no domestic oneworld or codeshare partner in Canada for JL to connect to. If connections to Canada from GRU are going to fill the plane and allow them to compete with AC they would be better off connecting to AA or AS because AC is going to best them on connections through AC. There are far more people travelling between YYZ and GRU compared to YVR and GRU and JL doesn't have a YYZ presence yet so a route which can add two new destinations but spreads the risk by linking the markets makes more sense. There is already a well used service on JL to YVR so there is less need to split the load between YVR and GRU. Also, while AC is building an international hub at YYZ the oneworld partners are also trying to do a bit of the same. There are more and more codeshares being placed on AA flights out of YYZ to the USA with oneworld partners. Recently MA inked a deal with AA to put their code on AA flights out of YYZ that connect with their BUD flight. With most of the oneworld partners flying into YYZ and more open skies argreements possibly being put in place JL may be able to take passengers connecting from Europe, the northern startes, and Hong Kong onwards to South America (GRU-YYZ-HKG is shorter than GRU-YVR-HKG). YYZ it already way out of the way travelling GRU-Europe, not so bad LIM-Europe but YVR is really out of the way.

Save it EnviroTO. No matter how logical your explanation might be some will continue to ignore it. They are still stuck in the fifties and listing routes that were flown 45 years ago. Your explanation is very clear and I hope it turns out to become reality. Japan-Eastern North America is a very large market and if JAL were to launch service to YYZ tourism in that part of the continent would increase because it would break AC's monopoly and prices would come down stimulating demand. The same thing would happen to YYZ-GRU where AC also has monopoly.
Cheers,
 
yvr1968
Posts: 279
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RE: Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:27 am

The YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE route was flown in the 80s as well. That is a fact no matter how "persistent" you are. So it's really not THAT long ago. Naritaflyer - relax... it's just a simple discussion.

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