UpperDeck79
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Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:52 pm

Finnairgroup.com:

FINNAIR FLIGHTS TO INDIA TO BE QUADRUPLED:
FLIGHTS TO MUMBAI ALL SET FOR JUNE LAUNCH


This is already partly discussed in Finnish Aviation Thread Vol. 2 (by UpperDeck79 Jan 18 2007 in Civil Aviation) , but I think a new thread is appropriate for this massive change in AY's operations.

DEL and HKG will go daily, BOM will be 5 weekly. BKK-SIN-BKK will be axed and BKK-KUL-BKK will not begin in May. CAN will go 4 weekly.
AY and ANA rock!
 
andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:08 pm

Will DEL and BOM both get A340 then?
And what will happened to 2x daily service to BKK in winter?
All together sounds like a clever move, India and China must have the fastest growing markets.
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LordHowe
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting Andaman (Reply 1):
And what will happened to 2x daily service to BKK in winter?

BKK seems to be twice daily also next summer.

But what about the schedules? What will they look like? Are the India flights now going to connect better with JFK flights?

HEL is far too crowded during the afternoons, so I hope the schedules could take this into considerations. Anybody know yet? www.finnair.com seems still to have the old ones ...

How about SIN - gone forever?

Quoting Andaman (Reply 1):
Will DEL and BOM both get A340 then?

The first two of the new 340s are coming in May and June and then there is this old Virgin bird, so it is possible.

Regards,
LordHowe

[Edited 2007-01-22 12:15:08]
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nordiclight
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:15 pm

Sorry for all!, i get wrong info from one of my friend working in AY, They internal communication is horroble!. AY will not fly anymore to SIN and KUL.

I was just wondering what BA will say about the change as AY has been also one of the airlines who has fill the planes to Australia ex-SIN. I heard that now AY will start to use more CX to Australia ex-HKG.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:16 pm

This change will also mean the start of a third (evening) long-haul departure bank from HEL:

14.00-15.00
JFK
DEL

16.30-17.30
PVG
CAN
HKG
NRT
NGO
KIX

20.00-20.30
BOM
BKK
PEK

Quoting Andaman (Reply 1):
Will DEL and BOM both get A340 then?

DEL will stay as MD-11. NRT, PVG and NRT will get A340.

This is the BOM schedule:

AY 029
HEL-BOM 20:00-06:10 + 1 day(s)
Non-stop / 343 / 7h40min / Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Sun

AY 030
BOM-HEL 08:15-13:50
Non-stop / 343 8h05min / Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri

[Edited 2007-01-22 12:20:42]
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LordHowe
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 4):
20.00-20.30
BOM
BKK
PEK

How about the other BKK flight? Or is there going to be one?

Regards,
LordHowe
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 5):

How about the other BKK flight? Or is there going to be one?

In the summer there will be only one BKK per day. Let's see what happens in the winter.
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OHLHD
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:41 pm

Is there so much traffic between HEL and India? I assume that it is a lot of transfer pax?

DEL is clear otherwise they would not go daily, but I hardly think that they are all in the cellphone business Big grin
 
LordHowe
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 4):
AY 030
BOM-HEL 08:15-13:50

Will this be enough to connect to HEL-JFK departing 14.20? It doesn't work the other way round - meaning JFK-HEL-BOM - there would be a looooong wait in HEL.

Regards,
LordHowe
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HB-IWC
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:49 pm

I'm not surprised that the SIN tag will be axed and that the KUL tag won't be started. These tags are very costly and most of the time noth worth the effort, for sure not with the current low cost competition in Asia, which precludes any decent fares on the intra Asian sectors. The only way then for AY to make a SIN rotation work is through a nonstop flight. I wonder whether that ever happens.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 7):
Is there so much traffic between HEL and India? I assume that it is a lot of transfer pax?

I doubt that too - and relying on transfer pax is not gonna make things easier.

Can't say I'm not surprised indeed about starting up BOM - and five weekly, in addition to going daily on DEL. The yields on BOM are absolutely terrible, with massive competition from all over Europe, most notably the UK and LHR in particular, and also increasingly from the M.E. And starting up to BOM in June????? How mad is that. Surely, an MD11 would be better at work over the Atlantic or something in the summer. "The direct way to Asia is via HEL" also fades a bit when you're going to BOM; HEL is more of detour now.

I'm indeed impressed by AY's expansions on long-haul in recent years, and I think they've been very wise and very focused. However, the BOM thing, to be honest, seems crazy. I do hope they have their reasons, but I think they're in for a tough one.

Kevin777  Smile
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:23 pm

Finnair route map looks quite nice with the new additions (gc.kls2.com):

Big version: Width: 434 Height: 433 File size: 148kb
New Finnair Routemap


(Not all European routes are shown to make it more readable.)
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manni
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 11):
Finnair route map looks quite nice with the new additions (gc.kls2.com):

ICN would fit in nicely there. Weren't there rumours a while back that AY might start flying to ICN?
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Sukhoi
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
"The direct way to Asia is via HEL" also fades a bit when you're going to BOM; HEL is more of detour now.

If you look at the local market up here in the north OSL, ARN and CPH travelling to HEL and then onwards to BOM you only have a 35-45 minutes transit time on your outbound flight. Play a little with great circle map and you will see that travelling via HEL are usually the shothest way in distance shorter than CPH-FRA-BOM.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 12):
ICN would fit in nicely there. Weren't there rumours a while back that AY might start flying to ICN?

Yes, it would fit perfectly. And yes their were a lot of rumors. I hope we'll get ICN in 2008 with the 4th and 5th A343.
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LordHowe
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 14):
I hope we'll get ICN in 2008 with the 4th and 5th A343.

I hope we will get SIN back!

Regards,
LordHowe
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:14 pm

HEL-DEL will arrive to DEL before midnight, but the return flight has two different schedules:

AY022 DEL-HEL 01:00-06:00 MD-11 Daily except Mon, Sun
AY022 DEL-HEL 03:15-08:15 MD-11 Mon, Sun

Does anyone know the reason for this?
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OHLHD
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:30 pm

A bit off-topic but does anyone know if there is a HEL-ENF service during summer? I cannot find one.
 
jimyvr
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:36 pm

A setback for KUL....oh well
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FFlyer
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 8):
Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 4):
AY 030
BOM-HEL 08:15-13:50

Will this be enough to connect to HEL-JFK departing 14.20?

Well, this connection would definitely cause frequent delays for the JFK flight. Assuming it would wait the BOM connecting pax.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 17):
A bit off-topic but does anyone know if there is a HEL-ENF service during summer? I cannot find one.

I think ENF (Enontekiö) is only flown during the ski season.
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OHLHD
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 20):
I think ENF (Enontekiö) is only flown during the ski season.

Not good to hear. I was looking for a cheaper variant of getting to TOS.  Smile
 
vadheim
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:08 am

I travel to Asia 2-3 times pr. year and always choose HEL and Finnair  Smile Very easy for us up in the north (OSL here...) Travelling via CPH, FRA, AMS is never an option anymore.
 
EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:08 am

Well, I was really surprised to see these news. But isn't this on quite a short notice?

Firstly, It's always nice to see a new service and it's goos to see these increases. It seems DEL has been so succesful that AY has decided to increase its presense there this radically. However, I'm a bit conservative with old routes and like traditions so I'm saddened to lose the late night BKK flight (was nice to see it take off before going to bed, I have good views to the runway 4R(&L) approach paths from my kitchen window), the SIN service (having flown it myself) and that KUL won't be started (for now). I really hope those will be started again, if not in winter schedules then when new planes arrive as nonstops.

Can anyone do the quick math to make sure these flights will be able to be handled with current equipment with the new 343s? I mean I'm sure they will, but just in case... Wink

[Edited 2007-01-22 19:11:04]
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jaysit
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:32 am

Maybe Finnair thinks it can pick up German and Scandinavian passengers headed to India. Currently, Lufthansa's flights to Mumbai and Delhi operate at an annual load factor of over 85% (about 80% for the entire Indian operation) with the airline's premium cabins being extremely popular. And also remember that Goa as a destination has become rather popular with Finnish tourists. I guess their strategy is Nokia corporate + Northern Europe + Goa.

I really don't see how they can make the New York - Mumbai operations work with the times they currently have.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:37 am

Great to see AY expanding in Asia .

Do they have any plans to expand in Canada and the US?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
Lufthansa's flights to Mumbai and Delhi operate at an annual load factor of over 85%

Lufthansa is the biggest European Airline in Asia , they are expanding also very much there , most of the flights will get sure the 380 .
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andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 23):
Well, I was really surprised to see these news. But isn't this on quite a short notice?

[Edited 2007-01-22 19:11:04]

AY has often made quick moves and been in a right place in a right time, I hope that's the way now too. BOM sounds a bit risky, lot of competition there, but not anything they couldn't handle it think.
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andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
Maybe Finnair thinks it can pick up German and Scandinavian passengers headed to India. Currently, Lufthansa's flights to Mumbai and Delhi operate at an annual load factor of over 85% (about 80% for the entire Indian operation) with the airline's premium cabins being extremely popular. And also remember that Goa as a destination has become rather popular with Finnish tourists. I guess their strategy is Nokia corporate + Northern Europe + Goa.

No doubt their target is Northern-European transit passengers, like with their Asian service generally. Plus the Asian passengers travelling to Europe, I have noticed in BKK and HKG that AY often is the inexpensive choice from Asia to Europe, it seems they are competing with price at the moment.
Goa is served by 752 charters, I don't think there will be many package holiday makers on Indian flights.
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jimyvr
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 15):

I hope we will get SIN back!

Probably codeshare with QANTAS on BKK-SIN
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Andaman (Reply 26):
AY has often made quick moves

Give me an example! Big grin

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 28):
Probably codeshare with QANTAS on BKK-SIN

Does QF actually fly that?!
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jimyvr
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 29):
Does QF actually fly that?!

I was actually thinking in the reverse way, it was QF codeshare on AY's SIN-BKK...
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Andaman (Reply 26):
BOM sounds a bit risky, lot of competition there,

That's what I thought too. And I've also understood that airport facilities in India aren't exactly best ones in the world.

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 28):
Probably codeshare with QANTAS on BKK-SIN

That option sounds logical, but to stir the pot a bit, maybe AY could enter into an extensive code-share agreement with EK, start DXB (wit EK metal too, of course  Wink ) and offer code-shares from there to places like SIN, KUL and CGK.  stirthepot 
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 29):
Give me an example!

I think it'll be hard for Andaman to make up one, so I'll say the suspension of MHQ flights!  

[Edited 2007-01-22 20:19:58]
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andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 29):

Give me an example!

Well, they were the first to fly non stop to Tokyo from Western-Europe, were among the first ones to start business in China etc.
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 31):
That option sounds logical, but to stir the pot a bit, maybe AY could enter into an extensive code-share agreement with EK, start DXB (wit EK metal too, of course Wink ) and offer code-shares from there to places like SIN, KUL and CGK.

And why would EK want to do that...?  Smile

Quoting EFHK (Reply 32):
I'll say the suspension of MHQ flights

That might qualify, yes. Big grin

Quoting Andaman (Reply 33):
Well, they were the first to fly non stop to Tokyo from Western-Europe, were among the first ones to start business in China etc.

I had the impression they used years to make that happen...? Yes, they were the first but it didn't happen quickly, I think.
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andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 34):


I had the impression they used years to make that happen...? Yes, they were the first but it didn't happen quickly, I think.

Of course it takes time to prepare business like this, but AY has often been a pioneer. My friend working in travel business in Sweden just said Finnair has often been more quick than SAS to react, and that would be one big reason AY is doing well in Asia at the moment, SAS less so.

Of course there are risks too, like now AY has lot of the eggs in one basket (= Asia), a bird flu epidemic in Asia would hit their business hard. Well, probably it would become a global problem anyway...

[Edited 2007-01-22 21:07:01]
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 34):
And why would EK want to do that...?

Get codeshares to ARN, OSL, GOT, LED, and TLL?  Wink

Quoting Andaman (Reply 35):
Of course it takes time to prepare business like this, but AY has often been a pioneer. My friend working in travel business in Sweden just said Finnair has often been more quick than SAS to react, and that would be one big reason AY is doing well in Asia at the moment, SAS less so.

I see what you mean, my point was that usually new long-haul routes have been announced about a year before launch, this was just five months!
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andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 36):

I see what you mean, my point was that usually new long-haul routes have been announced about a year before launch, this was just five months!

Sometimes you just have to act a bit faster  Wink And I suppose not much harm done. I was planning an AY flight to KUL myself though...
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Andaman (Reply 37):
I was planning an AY flight to KUL myself though...

And I was planning to fly the flight in FSBig grin
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 36):
Get codeshares to ARN, OSL, GOT, LED, and TLL?

Those would require TWO code-share flights - wouldn't it be much better for EK to code-share from one of there European destinations on another carrier?  Wink
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jfr
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:32 am

Anybody know if axing the BKK turns is in any way related to the airport's other troubles?
 
andaman
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Jfr (Reply 40):
Anybody know if axing the BKK turns is in any way related to the airport's other troubles?

No, I don't believe so. BKK is very important to AY and it is one of the big (European) boys there, even without connections to SIN and KUL.
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 39):
Those would require TWO code-share flights - wouldn't it be much better for EK to code-share from one of there European destinations on another carrier?



Quoting EFHK (Reply 31):
start DXB (with EK metal too, of course )

As an aviation enthusiast I'd suggest a combined service, maybe 2 weekly for AY, 2 weekly for EK.  

Quoting Jfr (Reply 40):
Anybody know if axing the BKK turns is in any way related to the airport's other troubles?

Frankly, it's quite unprobable. Finnair's own statement is they needed to get to the Indian market now as there wouldn't be slots available later, and also the BKK-SIN leg wasn't the most high-yeilding one, I suppose.

[Edited 2007-01-22 22:53:23]
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DTWAGENT
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:39 am

Why are they droping the BKK and KUL routes? I thought they where flying full planes on these routes?

Chuck
 
OHLHD
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 43):
Why are they droping the BKK and KUL routes? I thought they where flying full planes on these routes?

BKK will not be dropped. KUL has never started!

BKK is looking good but KUL... never started  Smile
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 42):
As an aviation enthusiast I'd suggest a combined service, maybe 2 weekly for AY, 2 weekly for EK.

One can always dream.  Wink

Quoting EFHK (Reply 23):
I have good views to the runway 4R(&L) approach paths from my kitchen window

Sounds awesome! And what time did you say the dinner is served tomorrow?  Wink
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 45):
Sounds awesome! And what time did you say the dinner is served tomorrow?

Hmmm, I'm not sure, depends on the winds! 

Of course there are restrictions with cloud layers and fog to see anything, they aren't that low yet here (I live in Pitäjänmäki). But when it's a good weather, it's nice to sit down and plane-spot, you can see reasonably well 4R arrivals without binoculars, but for 4L they're recommended. Many times I've been just passing by and noticed - Oh, what's THAT?! I saw for example OH-LQA for the first time that way... But I'll tell you, northeasterly winds are underrated!  

Edit: I'm sure our across-the-street neighbours think I'm some kind of a stalker!  Big grin

[Edited 2007-01-23 01:14:48]
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UpperDeck79
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RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:19 am

India Times is reporting that there are plans to have BOM as a daily flight by the year's end. Is that in any way possible without decreasing BKK heavily compared to this winter with twice daily flights?

Quote:
Mumbai will join Finnair's international network with five direct flights from Helsinki from June, while the thrice-a-week frequency from Delhi will become a daily service from mid-May. Plans are to have a daily service from Mumbai by the year-end. Finnair has interline agreements with several Indian carriers including Jet Airways, Air Sahara and Indian.



Quoting EFHK (Reply 46):
Of course there are restrictions with cloud layers and fog to see anything, they aren't that low yet here (I live in Pitäjänmäki). But when it's a good weather, it's nice to sit down and plane-spot, you can see reasonably well 4R arrivals without binoculars, but for 4L they're recommended. Many times I've been just passing by and noticed - Oh, what's THAT?! I saw for example OH-LQA for the first time that way... But I'll tell you, northeasterly winds are underrated!

Sounds great! I can rarely see some arriving aircraft from my north-facing city center apartment. But too far to actually spot anything. Sad
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EFHK
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 47):
Is that in any way possible without decreasing BKK heavily compared to this winter with twice daily flights?

They might consider decreasing China or Japan a bit again.

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 47):
I can rarely see some arriving aircraft from my north-facing city center apartment. But too far to actually spot anything.

Well, when I became interested in aviation some five years ago it was a nice surprise to see that our house was so well located.  Smile
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Finnair To BOM - Axes SIN, KUL

Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 47):
Is that in any way possible without decreasing BKK heavily compared to this winter with twice daily flights?

Two things here: first, it is likely that AY is aiming for further growth in India, which is, according to the current Bilateral Air Services Agreement, only possible after daily services to both DEL and BOM have been established/ Second, it is possible that AY will run a couple of HKG services through BKK next winter, although the service was originally planned to go nonstop thrice weekly in winter.