flashmeister
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Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:10 pm

Got an interesting e-mail this morning from Frontier, pushing their latest fare sale. It said that Frontier had achieved major status. Excerpt below:

"It's taken a dozen years... but we've finally made it. Frontier Airlines has been designated a Major Airline by the Department of Transportation."

So, congrats to Frontier for joining the big boys. Question to those who might know: I wasn't able to find anything about an official announcement from the DOT or FAA on this... anyone know where the definitive list of DOT-designated major airlines might exist on the Web?
 
GoDIA
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:16 pm

Way to go, F9!! TThey're already "Denver's Favorite Airline," and those commercials are the best!! The crews are professional and very friendly, the fleet is new and comfortable.

FYI...check out the website www.frontierairlines.com and vote for "Denver's favorite Animal," it's a hoot!
Military Jet Noise--the Sound of Freedom!
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Flashmeister (Thread starter):
Question to those who might know: I wasn't able to find anything about an official announcement from the DOT or FAA on this... anyone know where the definitive list of DOT-designated major airlines might exist on the Web?

Better question: What defines a "major" airline? #pax/#flights/#RSM/#ASM/etc...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:40 am

Major carrier status is defined as $1 Billion annual revenues. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:44 am

I'm sure F9 will put a major focus on its MBR (Mishandled Baggage Ratio) now that it will be compared with the other majors. When I was there I remember they always said "good thing we're not a major yet because we'd be near the bottom of MBR." Perhaps things have changed.
 
AirEMS
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:48 am

Congrats to F9! May their good fortune continue and may we have no more blizzards in DEN


-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
flashmeister
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 4):
I'm sure F9 will put a major focus on its MBR (Mishandled Baggage Ratio) now that it will be compared with the other majors. When I was there I remember they always said "good thing we're not a major yet because we'd be near the bottom of MBR." Perhaps things have changed.

This apparently is not the case. According to the November DOT numbers as posted by Holly Hegeman on her PlaneBusiness Banter list, Frontier had 4.44 mishandled baggage reports per 1,000 passengers. It ranked 6th of 20 major, national, and regional carriers in baggage handling.

Their rating compared favorably to those of some other majors (higher numbers indicate more mishandled baggage per 1,000 pax). For instance, American was rated at 5.41, Southwest at 5.46, Delta at 6.72, and US Airways at 7.11. Frontier finished behind Aloha, Hawaiian, AirTran, Continental, and jetBlue.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:06 am

Congratulations to Frontier.

It's been a heck of a journey, and there have been a few times when it didn't look as if they were going to make it.

The crisis of the aborted merger with Westpac nearly killed Frontier - it was only an emergency loan from Wexford Capital of $5 million that kept 'em flying.

$5 million? Sounds like peanuts today.

Things got a lot better after that, and Frontier started to make good money.

Next real shock was the Airbus order. As a small, new airline, Frontier was paying through the nose for its leased 737's and needed to get a better deal.

They thought (and we all did) they would be going with Boeing, but Boeing played hardball and Frontier turned to Airbus.

That was a shock - not only the order but the cost - it was a lot of money for a small airline.

The first A319 was delivered in 2001, which became a watershed year for Frontier.

CEO Sam Addoms retired, and the COO, Jeff Potter assumed command - just
a few months before 9/11.

9/11 came very close to killing Frontier. They were high on everyone's list of airlines that wouldn't survive. At the very least, the analysts said, they would have to cancel the Airbus order.

It didn't happen. The planes kept coming and Frontier kept flying and in 2002 they were profitable while several majors were not.

But 2002 had problems. It was thought the airlines were recovering from 9/11, but summer 2002 proved to be a real fizz - business was dreadful for everyone.

Meanwhile, Frontier announced service to Mexico, which caused junior heart failure among some - they were breaking the LCC model! LCC's don't fly international!

The first Mexico routes were DEN-CUN and DEN-MZT. It was supposed to be DEN-SJD as well, but that didn't happen until the following year.

(The filing with the DOT showed DEN-SJD-MZT-DEN - that would have been fun).

The original load factors on the two Mexican routes were spectacular and set the stage for the Mexican expansion was to come.

LAX, however, was not spectacular. In one of the great pieces of bad luck timing, Frontier announced LAX as a focus city - just as the price of crude oil started to go through the roof.

One LAX route was a neat disaster - LAX-MSP. Northwest went nuclear, expanded service on LAX-MSP and MSP-DEN, dropped fares - and, crucially, added DEN-LAX.

It didn't take long. With DEN-LAX under assault, Frontier got the message and, like JetBlue at ATL, quickly dropped LAX-MSP.

LAX-STL and LAX-MCI were doing better, but not well enough to cope with the surging price of oil, so the LAX focus city was gone.

But not forgotten.

It was a rough ride for a while, but just when Frontier seemed to be getting a balance, three hurricanes happened:

Katrina destroyed New Orleans, but what hit Frontier was Wilma - which came close to destroying Cancun, which was almost a focus city for Frontier.

On top of which, Southwest announced service at DEN, which had a hurricane effect on Frontier. Most analysts wondered how Frontier could survive and Mike Boyd flat out stated that Southwest was planning to take Frontier out - "Southwest has put a target on Frontier's back".

But - Frontier has survived. Again. It's been a rocky year, but that hasn't stopped Mr. Potter. In the middle of the year we got news of what may be the most interesting expansion in the airline's history, with the setting up of Lynx and the replacement of Horizon as Jet Express.

All that will happen in 2007, but meanwhile, nature had another nasty trick - the two blizzards at DEN, which closed the airport and crippled the airlines flying there.

So - looking back - when you consider was has happened in the industry since 9/11, the surprise is not that Frontier has become a major - the surprise is that Frontier has survived at all.

Jeff Potter must sometimes wonder what he did to have the gods throw all their lightning bolts at him since he took over.

But here they are - a major airline, and all the folk at Frontier can be proud of what they have achieved.

I look forward to 2007 and wonder what more surprises there will be. I know it won't be dull.

 Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
Katrina destroyed New Orleans

But, like the Phoenix, we have risen from the ashes my friend.  Wink

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
But here they are - a major airline, and all the folk at Frontier can be proud of what they have achieved.

Absoultely. Lots of hard working folks in Frontierland. They deserve all the success.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:13 am

Great analysis Mariner...always insightful!
 
mkorpal
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:18 am

Congrats to my favorite airline. I can't wait to see the animals on the E170 and Q400's this year. Plus a few new airbuses. And soon enough we will be adding the A320's.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 3):
Major carrier status is defined as $1 Billion annual revenues. Please correct me if I am mistaken.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 4):
I'm sure F9 will put a major focus on its MBR (Mishandled Baggage Ratio) now that it will be compared with the other majors. When I was there I remember they always said "good thing we're not a major yet because we'd be near the bottom of MBR." Perhaps things have changed.

Yep, the definition of a "Major" airline is revenues over $1 billion. That has been the threshold for quite a few years (not raised for inflation in a long time) and so a number of largest regional airlines are also well over the "major" status, including Skywest and ExpressJet.

The requirment to report stats to the DoT is not based on revenue or on "major" status, but instead is required for any airline which carries at least 1.0% of the total US air traffic, measured (if I recall correctly) in revenue passenger miles. I don't *think* Frontier is quite at that level, but it doesn't matter much because they have voluntarily submitted their information each month for the past year or so. Aloha also does so voluntarily.

At any rate, congrats to Frontier!
 
SANFan
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:58 am

Nicely done, Frontier! As Mariner said it so well, many uphill battles over the years but they kept climbing and have officially reached the rarefied air at the top - at least a Mile High I would suppose!  Wink

I look forward to more smart, controlled growth and for crying out loud, I hope they don't run out of animals!

bb
 
graphic
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 8):

But, like the Phoenix, we have risen from the ashes my friend.

Tell that to the 9th ward...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):

Great story man, thanks for sharing!
Demand Media fails at life
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:12 am

Way to go Frontier, they're the best carrier to take going west! That's impressive to hit Major status when they are still a smaller airline.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
Next real shock was the Airbus order. As a small, new airline, Frontier was paying through the nose for its leased 737's and needed to get a better deal.

They thought (and we all did) they would be going with Boeing, but Boeing played hardball and Frontier turned to Airbus.

That was a shock - not only the order but the cost - it was a lot of money for a small airline.

The first A319 was delivered in 2001, which became a watershed year for Frontier.

Like B6, I think F9 was wise to go with Airbus on this one since the A320 and it's smaller models can do very well for a small LCC. I like the A318 and A319, for the typical flights F9 does. They do very well up against the likes of DL, UA and WN on the highly competitive SLC-DEN run. SLC-DCA via DEN for $385.00 (USD) is pretty good I would say. DL can't match that direct or either via ATL, CVG, or even JFK for that matter.
Along with B6, F9 has made my list of LCC alternatives to WN and FL!
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
Tell that to the 9th ward...

Obviously I was talking about the New Orleans region as a whole, and also in terms of support for air service....surely the lower 9 and other spots are coming back much more slowly than others thanks to the incredible damage, but much progress has been made.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 14):
Way to go Frontier, they're the best carrier to take going west! That's impressive to hit Major status when they are still a smaller airline.

Look at the livery they use and the age of the aircraft and it says it all:
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
AirEMS
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
Jeff Potter must sometimes wonder what he did to have the gods throw all their lightning bolts at him since he took over.

I think that some of their good fortune is contained in the fact that F9 brought alot of the the old FL people back... These employees had and still have HUGE pride in where they work.. My Dad has always said that he wasn't a employee of FL he was a family member!

When F9 started I think they were very smart to bring these people back. I also think that there were quite a few passengers who came back to F9 due to brand loyalty and the fact that UA was the only major player at DIA after CO scaled back.

Again congrats to a great airline that holds true to it's name!
-Carl

Oh and Mariner... Great post!
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
flyibaby
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 18):
think that some of their good fortune is contained in the fact that F9 brought alot of the the old FL people back...

I assume you meant the old Frontier people back..right?
 
mkorpal
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:33 am

F9 has always been an aggressive airline. They have never backed away from competition (getting a significant portion of the DEN market from UAL) and they never do the ordinary (lcc flying international, building up after 9/11). So, what do you think they will do next. In all honesty, I would not be too surprised if I woke up to find that they had ordered a bunch of A340-500 and were beginning long haul international service from DEN. I doubt that would ever happen, but it would not surprise me too much with this airline.
 
Airportguy1971
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 19):
I assume you meant the old Frontier people back..right?

The "old FL" was Frontier I. FL was used by them before Airtran.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
It didn't take long. With DEN-LAX under assault, Frontier got the message and, like JetBlue at ATL, quickly dropped LAX-MSP.

It wasn't a message from NW, it was a message from Consumers as well, Frontier was flying typically with a 14% load factor and flight attendents often said they would have less then 10 people on the flights.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 22):
It wasn't a message

Um - the sentence just says that Frontier got the message, it doesn't say who the message was from.

But one does have to wonder why "the Consumers" sent that message on LAX-MSP, but didn't send the same message on LAX-MCI or LAX-STL.

NWA had announced the retailation within about 36 hours of Frontier announcing the service, including the killer DEN-LAX - which is what really killed LAX-MSP.

Nor were NWA's load factors any too pretty on the common routes for that period of time. Look how quickly NWA cancelled the retaliation frequencies after Frontier pulled out - as well as cancelling DEN-LAX.

  

mariner

[Edited 2007-01-25 02:00:21]
aeternum nauta
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:13 am

Congrats to Frontier as they are a good airline to fly. My parents fly them to Vegas and wouldnt hesitate to do it again.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
AirEMS
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting AirportGuy1971 (Reply 21):
The "old FL" was Frontier I. FL was used by them before Airtran.

Thanks AirportGuy1971 you beat me to it

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 19):
I assume you meant the old Frontier people back..right?

Yes I was

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 20):
I would not be too surprised if I woke up to find that they had ordered a bunch of A340-500 and were beginning long haul international service from DEN. I doubt that would ever happen, but it would not surprise me too much with this airline.

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! I want a 772 for F9!  hissyfit 
(I know that, that is a real long shot since Boeing burned them)
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 5):
Congrats to F9! May their good fortune continue and may we have no more blizzards in DEN

Haha. Im sittin up here in YQQ (Comox, BC) watching the TV and wishing we had those Denver style Blizzards. I seem to have different opinions than others. Wink
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
AirEMS
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 26):
Haha. Im sittin up here in YQQ (Comox, BC) watching the TV and wishing we had those Denver style Blizzards. I seem to have different opinions than others

You can have all of the Colorado Snow you want..... In fact you can or well could go to ebay and bid on some  rotfl 


-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 27):
In fact you can or well could go to ebay and bid on some

Hmmm, it just wouldn't be the same.
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
Eagle11
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:36 pm

Great news for F9! Certainly a lot of hard work by all the employees went into making the carrier what it is today. Some good business decisions and a little luck probably haven't hurt either.  wink 

Congrats and good luck for many years to come.
"The Eagle has landed"
 
F9Fan
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:18 pm

Good to see F9 finally join the big boys.

F9Fan
 
AirEMS
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:23 pm

I have wondered about this question for a while...

Let say if the first Frontier (FL) had not gone down.. and had survived 9/11 could you at this point have been able to call them a "Legacy" carrier? IIRC they had a rather long history. or would they still have been a "Major" Carrier?

-Carl

BTW Please Vote for your favorite F9 Animal at FrontierAirlines.Com You have to watch the commericals their hilarious!
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
It's been a heck of a journey, and there have been a few times when it didn't look as if they were going to make it.

Agreed. It's been the will of the people of that company that has pushed it to where it is. That's one thing I love about traveling on F9. You can tell their people from the customer service agents to flight attendants take tremendous ownership in their company's success and hardship. They really care about F9 as a company.
Good goes around!
 
pdxcof9
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 pm

Yay frontier!!! I love those campaign commercials. And I voted!! Everyone should vote!!!
Flown:733,4,7,8,752,763,TU3,CRJ,7,EM2,ER3,4,318,19,346,M80,90 Worked:CRJ,7,9,EM2,ER4,733,5,7,8,9,752,3,318,9
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 3):
Major carrier status is defined as $1 Billion annual revenues. Please correct me if I am mistaken.



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 11):
Yep, the definition of a "Major" airline is revenues over $1 billion. That has been the threshold for quite a few years (not raised for inflation in a long time) and so a number of largest regional airlines are also well over the "major" status, including Skywest and ExpressJet.

uhhhhh......... the DOT definition was the only one I've ever heard....

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 11):

The requirment to report stats to the DoT is not based on revenue or on "major" status, but instead is required for any airline which carries at least 1.0% of the total US air traffic, measured (if I recall correctly) in revenue passenger miles. I don't *think* Frontier is quite at that level, but it doesn't matter much because they have voluntarily submitted their information each month for the past year or so. Aloha also does so voluntarily.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
well technicaly B6 has done so for a while as well.....
Why do I fly???
 
mli717fan
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:53 pm

On a related note, I was on Airtran's website today looking at flights, and I noticed they have F9 destinations on there as well. You can book flights from one Airtran city to another Airtran city, and Frontier to Frontier.... but you can't book Airtran to Frontier, or vice-versa.

Any Ideas if thats in the works. I know the two airlines made an announcement about their FF programs not too long ago?

I haven't flown Frontier yet, but I will definitely jump at the opportunity once it presents itself. Congrats to all of the dedicated Frontier employees.
 
wepaman
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:19 pm

That is a Great news... Congradulation From The LiveTV Team, wishing you and your Customer only but the BEST....
Is a Blue Thing!! - Green is Lovely!!!!
 
pdxcof9
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Mli717fan (Reply 35):
On a related note, I was on Airtran's website today looking at flights, and I noticed they have F9 destinations on there as well. You can book flights from one Airtran city to another Airtran city, and Frontier to Frontier.... but you can't book Airtran to Frontier, or vice-versa.

Any Ideas if thats in the works. I know the two airlines made an announcement about their FF programs not too long ago?

That would be a long trip if you don't start in denver. For example if you want to go to BOS from SLC you'd have to go to denver, atlanta, then boston. It would be such a headache when Delta has a nonstop or can do it for 1 stop. Plus if you just wanted to go to ATL you can take frontier and connect in denver.

They are probably in the works of doing it but I don't know how many people would wanna make 2 connections domestically. Although people do it especially between 2 small cities. But between two big cities is absurd. Just my 2 cents.
Flown:733,4,7,8,752,763,TU3,CRJ,7,EM2,ER3,4,318,19,346,M80,90 Worked:CRJ,7,9,EM2,ER4,733,5,7,8,9,752,3,318,9
 
ScottB
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 11):
The requirment to report stats to the DoT is not based on revenue or on "major" status, but instead is required for any airline which carries at least 1.0% of the total US air traffic, measured (if I recall correctly) in revenue passenger miles. I don't *think* Frontier is quite at that level, but it doesn't matter much because they have voluntarily submitted their information each month for the past year or so. Aloha also does so voluntarily.

It's based on domestic scheduled revenues, not RPM's, but you're correct about the 1% threshold. Actually, Frontier did hit the 1% reporting requirement as of the first report of 2006 data (the March 2006 report of January 2006 data), as did Hawaiian. Both had been reporting voluntarily before that, with F9 starting with May 2005's data. F9 typically does very well in those metrics so it was smart to start reporting voluntarily (also true for HA and AQ).
 
airfrnt
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:54 am

It's fun having our own little David here in Denver to keep UA's Goliath honest. I recently did my first international trip with F9 and I was presently surprised at how well it went. According to one person I talked too, F9 has been selling out every bit of metal they can get down to CUN, and the two flights I were on were overbooked, a true rarity for F9.

That and clearing customs and immigration in 5 minutes made me swear to fly them more often internationally - if they only few where I need to go. Sadly SVO, LHR and YYZ are a bit away from happening right now.

F9 does have a lot in front of it. I am sure the four snowstorms in December and January (which are very weird for Colorado) can't have helped.

What do I see for F9 in the future? I remember a conversation with a FL executive on a flight last year where he thought that F9 would probably be the first LCC to serve Europe (if they could get the metal) and that a FL/F9 link up (even with the weird fleets) wasn't out of the question.

The real question in my mind is if the UA/CO merger goes ahead, how does that challenge F9? CO has made no secret of it's eventual wish to return to DEN, and a UA tie up means that CO would probably be aggressive in ways UA hasn't, especially in the international arena, where European carriers have three daily flights while UA has none.

The eventual size and scope of WN's operations are also in question. But F9 has shown the ability to stick it out, at the one airport in the nation where fares are still going down, and the center of back luck and storms the last few years.

Mariner,

Thanks for your awesome writeup.
 
mkorpal
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 39):
What do I see for F9 in the future? I remember a conversation with a FL executive on a flight last year where he thought that F9 would probably be the first LCC to serve Europe (if they could get the metal)

Now that would be crazy. The problem would be gate space at DEN. Since there are only two gates big enough to hold a heavy jet in concourse A, they would be very limited. Plus they are already Used by BA and LH. But that would be very cool. Imagine a F9 777 or A340 in CDG or AMS.
 
ScottB
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 39):
he thought that F9 would probably be the first LCC to serve Europe

Perhaps more appropriately worded as "first of the current set of American LCC's to serve Europe on a scheduled basis," since PeoplExpress and Tower Air both served Europe and Laker/SkyTrain also flew between Europe and the U.S. Moreover, ATA does charters to Europe, largely for the military. And I could actually see WestJet making it to Europe before Frontier. If you consider US Airways to be a LCC (I don't), they're already in Europe.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 38):
It's based on domestic scheduled revenues, not RPM's, but you're correct about the 1% threshold. Actually, Frontier did hit the 1% reporting requirement as of the first report of 2006 data (the March 2006 report of January 2006 data),

Ahh...thanks for the information!
 
IOEAOK
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 40):
Now that would be crazy. The problem would be gate space at DEN. Since there are only two gates big enough to hold a heavy jet in concourse A

There are four international arrivals gates on the north side concourse A, all of which can accommodate heavy aircraft. Additionally, concourse A was designed so that "regular" existing gates could easily be modified to tie in to the international arrivals network of sterile elevators, escalators, and hallways.
 
mkorpal
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:47 am

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting IOEAOK (Reply 43):
There are four international arrivals gates on the north side concourse A, all of which can accommodate heavy aircraft. Additionally, concourse A was designed so that "regular" existing gates could easily be modified to tie in to the international arrivals network of sterile elevators, escalators, and hallways.

Thanks for the correction. I thought two of them were set up to handle large jets while the other two were not. Now, if they were to ever get into the long-haul business, what do you think they would order. Would they remain loyal to Airbus and get some A340's or possibly 330's (not sure about range with the 330's). Or do you think they would go with Boeing and get some 777's or possibly 787's. Of course, I really doubt they would do any of that, but then again, it's a very undeserved market (especially to Asia).
 
IOEAOK
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 44):
if they were to ever get into the long-haul business, what do you think they would order. Would they remain loyal to Airbus and get some A340's or possibly 330's (not sure about range with the 330's). Or do you think they would go with Boeing and get some 777's or possibly 787's.

It's fun to dream, isn't it? I'd put my money on 787s first, A350s second. But if F9 service to Europe or Asia does happen, I imagine it will be several years out regardless of the equipment they use.

I don't know details, but in general it seems that young carriers like Frontier have a hard time jumping across the oceans (America West to Nagoya, People Express to London, etc). Would love to hear anyone's thoughts about what Frontier would look like carrying its Major Carrier Status to other continents.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 40):
Now that would be crazy. The problem would be gate space at DEN. Since there are only two gates big enough to hold a heavy jet in concourse A, they would be very limited.

Any of the north facing gates at DEN (with the exception of the last node on the east and west) can be used for international. The four international gates that are actively being used now are city owned, not dedicated to BA or LH.

Quoting IOEAOK (Reply 43):
There are four international arrivals gates on the north side concourse A, all of which can accommodate heavy aircraft. Additionally, concourse A was designed so that "regular" existing gates could easily be modified to tie in to the international arrivals network of sterile elevators, escalators, and hallways.

Since there is not a hallway on the upper level facing south, I think that would take a bit more work, but would still be pretty easy to do.

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 44):
Thanks for the correction. I thought two of them were set up to handle large jets while the other two were not. Now, if they were to ever get into the long-haul business, what do you think they would order. Would they remain loyal to Airbus and get some A340's or possibly 330's (not sure about range with the 330's). Or do you think they would go with Boeing and get some 777's or possibly 787's. Of course, I really doubt they would do any of that, but then again, it's a very undeserved market (especially to Asia).

No on the 777. Too large. 757 can't make it there with hot and heavy at DEN. Even a 332/333 could do it at only 217 tons filled (slightly out of range for the full MTOW). I suspect that a 330s might still be too large, since they would get 300 seats easily in a one class config. A 763 or 764 would do nicely, but of course, international LCC is basically with the 787-8 is designed for. The 350 also is obviously too large.

Random trivia for the day, courteously of the local radio station: DEN is the busiest international airport without direct service to Asia (certainly in the US, and I believe world wide as well).

Obviously, I am a believer in the entire idea of point to point (even if each point is a hub). I think the first low cost carrier that goes international with the 787 is going to find unexpectedly fertile ground.
 
IOEAOK
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 46):
I think the first low cost carrier that goes international with the 787 is going to find unexpectedly fertile ground.

I agree. And I sure do hope it's Frontier!
 
mkorpal
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:47 am

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 46):
A 763 or 764 would do nicely

That would be a possibility. It's also the only aircraft they could get before 2010.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Frontier Achieves Major Carrier Status

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 48):
That would be a possibility. It's also the only aircraft they could get before 2010.

I honestly don't see it happening much before then anyways. That being said, this is a bet the company type decision. But I could see F9 putting in a order for 5 787s, and flying to international routes pretty easily with their O&D traffic.

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