jimyvr
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New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:49 am

Japan's Wing Daily on 25JAN07 reports ANA is studying the new large jet order for the future, as the airline has chosen 737 for new small jet, 787 for new medium-haul jet.

The new large capacity jet will be replacing the 747s. The 777 and 380 are the candidates that the airline is studying.

Quote:
 全日空大型機、A380やB777統一など視野に検討
 航空運送事業各社、今後の機材計画動向

 国内航空各社は今後の機材計画について、自社で公表したり、航空分科会で説明し
ているが、大手エアラインの日本航空、全日空ともに機材統合によるコストの縮減を
図っている。老朽化しているB747型機の退役により、中・小型機の比率を高め、機材
のダウンサイジングを促進している。両社は機材機種の統一化、燃料効率の良い
B787型機を大幅に増やすことにしているが、全日空ではA380型の導入も視野に検討し
ている。山元社長が航空分科会で言及した。
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
EI321
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:51 am

They are not looking at the 748?
 
jimyvr
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
They are not looking at the 748?

The airline didn't express it's interest in 747-8I
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
EI321
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:54 am

Not good news for the 748 if true.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:58 am

This is bizarre - ANA made a big deal of it's 3-type fleet strategy just last year. I remember the PR - 73G, 787s and 777s. That was it. Are they just humouring Airbus or has that much changed in the past twelve months?
 
EI321
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:00 pm

Whats the breakdown of their 747 fleet and what routes are they on?
 
Korg747
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:03 pm

I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse. The point is, The A380's public image will be boosted with a new order from a new customer and at the same time, ANA can and will probably get a really cheap deal on the A380 because airbus is most likely desperate for new customers right now.
Please excuse my English!
 
MDorBust
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:07 pm

If ANA swaps aircraft between domestic and international routes like JAL has a tendency to do, the A380 option is dead in the water from the get go. Unless that is, ANA finds a way to winkle four engine jets into high volume domestic airports that have passed two engine restrictions.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
EI321
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):
ANA finds a way to winkle four engine jets into high volume domestic airports that have passed two engine restrictions.

Which airports have? Obviously the 380 would only replace 747s so that rule would not apply.

[Edited 2007-01-25 04:14:56]
 
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Stitch
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Whats the breakdown of their 747 fleet and what routes are they on?

Their international 744 fleet does or used to fly NRT-CDG/FRA/LHR/JFK. Those flights are all transitioning to 773ERs to my knowledge. NRT-SFO and NRT-LAX have been up-gauged from 777-200ERs to 777-300ERs.

With NH moving from the 744 to the 773ER, I can see that if they have any interest at all in something larger then a 773ER, it would be the A388. If they wanted to stay with the 747, they would have expressed interest in the 747-X or 747-Advanced programs, and they did not.

That being said, I expect the chances of NH staying with the 773ER are far greater then them moving to the A388.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
Which airports have?

Our Japanese members have mentioned them, but I didn't make a list. But it is one of the reasons that drove JL and NH to the 773A and now the 787-3 for domestic ops.

[Edited 2007-01-25 04:16:56]
 
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Acey559
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:16 pm

It seems that the 777 would make sense because of fleet commonality, but do they really need the extra capacity. There is a fairly large gap between the 777 and A380. Did they say which variant they were looking at? I think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300, which would put it close to the 380, depending on how they configure it.
 
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Stitch
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 10):
I think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300.

Boeing gives a 525-seat single-class config, but NH does have 18 F seats in their domestic 777-300As so I imagine the Economy section is around 450 or so, but I never bothered to count.  Smile
 
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Acey559
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:33 pm

Yikes is about all I can say  Wow!. If they chose the 777, would they use such a high density seating arrangement, or would they use something more practical? And if they chose the A380, would they use a less dense arrangement or would they use a high density arrangement? Also, where will the airplanes be flying to, international or domestic or both?
 
Carpethead
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:47 pm

The issue of A380 on domestic is non-sense. It's new HND terminal for NH is not A380 capable (or restricts severe penalties on adjacent gates). Therefore passengers must be bussed to/from the terminal like when the int'l 744s are used on domestic runs.

Still it is surprising that the 748 is not included in the study but either NH wants to significantly increase the number of pax or stay with the 773ER for the int'l flagship.

The current 744 fleet flies scheduled on NRT-LHR/CDG/FRA/HKG only.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 10):
think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300

NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.
 
juventus
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.

WOW.......I didn't think that was possible.
 
ordryan28
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
They are not looking at the 748?

I thought they'd be looking into them, also..  Confused
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
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flying_727
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 14):
Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.

WOW.......I didn't think that was possible.

The Boeing seat map used for planning purposes on the Boeing website actually shows up to 550 economy seats at a 30in pitch.

flying_727
On ATA, You're On Vacation
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:36 pm

I think the 773ER would be a great choice for ANA's flagship. It is cheaper to operate than the A380 and would just make more sense, having two engines, instead of four.
 
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Stitch
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 12):
If they chose the 777, would they use such a high density seating arrangement, or would they use something more practical?

NH currently flies the 773ER on international routes with a 8F/77C/24Y+/132Y configuration.  Smile
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:41 pm

Let's face it: Airbus needs ANA to order the A380 more than ANA needs the A380. Between the 777LR and the 787, they have the potential for virtually the same revenues that could be obtained from even larger aircraft. If larger aircraft are needed, the 747-8I offers increased capacity with more flexibility and lower investment risk.

It's not about moving the most people between Point A and Point B. It's about making the most profit moving whatever number of passengers leads to maximum yield.

 
WingedMigrator
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 6):
I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse.

This whole thing really doesn't fit the usual a.net story line. Especially since all the A330s usually thrown in 'for free' to grease the A380 giveaways wouldn't have a place in ANA's fleet  rotfl 
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Their international 744 fleet does or used to fly NRT-CDG/FRA/LHR/JFK. Those flights are all transitioning to 773ERs to my knowledge. NRT-SFO and NRT-LAX have been up-gauged from 777-200ERs to 777-300ERs.

NH still occasionally brings the B772-ER into SFO...as I took this photo last Sunday (21.01.07)  bigthumbsup 



,,,but for the most part, you are correct, NH brings in the B773ER to SFO...
"Up the Irons!"
 
Ken777
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 6):
I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse.

It would seem that at some point Airbus needs to get some very good margins on the 380 if they are to break even in the 400 frame range. With all of the costs associated with the delays I would be surprised if Airbus will be able to profitably give anyone a deal they can't refuse.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:49 pm

Currently Osaka Itami (ITM) is the key Japanese domestic airport that has outlawed three and four engined aircraft. Kagoshima and Hakodate have as well. Fukuoka has proposed it but they haven't passed anything yet as both Japanese majors still bring 747s into that airport.

ANA is seeking to enhance its efforts to establish itself as the marquee international carrier here and will likely stick with the 773ER with a split fleet - one in the existing high premium, low density configuration, and another without.

The domestic 773s are in another boat and preclude NH from having to use the international birds on anything other than overnights for fleet utilization purposes.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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PM
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Currently Osaka Itami (ITM) is the key Japanese domestic airport that has outlawed three and four engined aircraft. Kagoshima and Hakodate have as well. Fukuoka has proposed it but they haven't passed anything yet as both Japanese majors still bring 747s into that airport.

Why do they do it? I use Hiroshima and loads of flights in and out are on 747s. What's the problem with four engines?

As for the A380, it doesn't seem likely to me but you never know. Put it this way, SQ and QF (to name just two Asia-Pacific carriers) seem to think the A380 is a good bet for long-haul trunk routes. Why wouldn't ANA? Moreover, AF and LH will be flying A380s into NRT sooner or later (let's see when they're delivered) and ANA just might feel they need to match them. To be honest, I really don't know but it's an intriguing rumour.

Stranger things have happened.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:34 pm

In some cases it's noise, in others emissions requirements. Proponents argue that three and four engine aircraft produce excessive amounts of pollution when two engine jets can operate with similar loads.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mbj2000
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
In some cases it's noise, in others emissions requirements. Proponents argue that three and four engine aircraft produce excessive amounts of pollution when two engine jets can operate with similar loads.

Speaking of noise, isn't the A380 supposed to be one of the quietest airliners around?
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
astuteman
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
It would seem that at some point Airbus needs to get some very good margins on the 380 if they are to break even in the 400 frame range. With all of the costs associated with the delays I would be surprised if Airbus will be able to profitably give anyone a deal they can't refuse.

Which will presumably tell you something about any deals they actually do..... Smile

Regards
 
columba
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:28 pm

Interesting last year they have said that they are leaving the door open to a future acquisition of the Airbus A380, despite the fact that they aimsto make the 777-300ER their largest aircraft.
"Although it has no plans to acquire the A380 in the medium term, Yamamoto does not rule out an order for the aircraft in the longer term. “If as other carriers introduce the A380 we feel we can’t compete, then we will acquire it, but the medium-term plan is not to order the aircraft,” he says."


ANA leaves door open for A380 despite 777-Flightglobal from 04/01/06
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 17):
I think the 773ER would be a great choice for ANA's flagship. It is cheaper to operate than the A380 and would just make more sense, having two engines, instead of four.

With your username, I'd take your comment with a grain of salt.  wink 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
NH still occasionally brings the B772-ER into SFO...as I took this photo last Sunday (21.01.07)

Your 1.2 megapixel camera is perfoming miracles I see..lol. Seriously, nice pic and now I miss coming home after SFO shots.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
EvilForce
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 26):
Speaking of noise, isn't the A380 supposed to be one of the quietest airliners around?

Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Which would I rather have...a two engined 777 that is louder and carries a lot less people so would need more flights over residential areas, or a quieter A380 that carries almost double the people and therefore less flights over my house? Hmmmm, tough choice.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
helvknight
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 30):
Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Which would I rather have...a two engined 777 that is louder and carries a lot less people so would need more flights over residential areas, or a quieter A380 that carries almost double the people and therefore less flights over my house? Hmmmm, tough choice.

But since when have NIMBYs thought logically?
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
EvilForce
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 31):
But since when have NIMBYs thought logically?

Touche.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
FCKC
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:38 pm

Do we know when NH will made their choice ?
 
jumboforever
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:32 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
Therefore passengers must be bussed to/from the terminal like when the int'l 744s are used on domestic runs.

I took buses at HND countless of times when I flew on 773 too. The 744 can also use gates. Anyway you're right the A380 would almost exclusively be parked at a remote stand, and I don't see this happens as I don't see NH order A380 for domestic runs.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
NH still occasionally brings the B772-ER into SFO

I guess this is the opposite here. NRT-SFO is schedule with a 3-class (C/Y+/Y) 772ER. 4-class 773ER are occasionally sent to SFO depending on aircraft availability, but in that case first class is not offered. SFO is to get the 773ER and a daily basis from June this year.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Currently Osaka Itami (ITM) is the key Japanese domestic airport that has outlawed three and four engined aircraft.

Noise is an issue, but it's well known that the ban of 3-4 engines at ITM was supposed to help money bleeding KIX to get more domestic flight.

Anyway, the only reason I could imagine NH buying some A380 would be to decrease their dependence towards Boeing (source : http://www.ana.co.jp/eng/aboutana/corporate/ir/pdf/annual/06/06_00.pdf page 40). And even if they do buy some, where would they send them.
CDG, FRA and LHR could support it, but it's already rumored that LHR will see 773ER from april or march this year when new aircrafts become available.

NH's CEO has already stated in the past that if the A380 flying for the competition are a threat for them they would consider buying some, but I don't see this kind of threat coming in the near future.

Best Regards,

JumboForever

[Edited 2007-01-25 11:39:11]
 
keesje
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 34):
CDG, FRA and LHR could support it, but it's already rumored that LHR will see 773ER from april or march this year when new aircrafts become available.

NH's CEO has already stated in the past that if the A380 flying for the competition are a threat for them they would consider buying some, but I don't see this kind of threat coming in the near future.

I think the timescale you are talking is short. From LHR, FRA, CDG, SIN, MEL and other places ANA will probably face direct competitive A380 flights in a few years. They won't be able to get their hands on A380 before 2010/11 (?)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
art
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
The new large capacity jet will be replacing the 747s. The 777 and 380 are the candidates that the airline is studying.

I find it strange that the replacements considered should be lower capacity and higher capacity aircraft. I would have thought that the candidates to replace the 747's would be aicraft of the same capacity/lower capacity or alternatively aicraft of the same capacity/higher capacity.

It seems confused thinking to me to consider increasing capacity/decreasing capacity but not to think of retaining existing capacity.

Has the airline got something against the 748-I?

[Edited 2007-01-25 12:32:19]
 
ZKNBX
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
Let's face it: Airbus needs ANA to order the A380 more than ANA needs the A380

And what.. you are, I take it, some expert on all the facts behind ANA'S decision...? Give me a break... of couse Airbus will present ANA with a "deal" otherwise they wouldn't be doin their job.. ANA is a blue chip carrier... however, whether or not ANA order the A380 is no ultimate judgement on the worth of the product...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
and will likely stick with the 773ER with a split fleet - one in the existing high premium, low density configuration, and another without.

And you speak quite authoritatively ..... how do you know?
 
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PM
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 36):
I find it strange that the replacements considered should be lower capacity and higher capacity aircraft.

Think about it. Airlines operate airliners for at least ten and often twenty or thirty years. Once they have bought them it may be cheaper to misuse a type on a given route than to buy the ideal plane for current circumstances. (I remember KLM flying DC'8'63s to LHR.) But when they buy something new they can take the opportunity to match the plane ideally to the route. So they will commonly replace one capacity with another.

Things change. (Things fall apart. The centre cannot hold...)

Consider... Ten years or more ago I was flying ZRH to MAN on an SR A310. Then it became an A320 and by the time I stopped it was an E'145.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:23 pm

In all honesty...they're probably just "looking" at the A380 to get a cheaper rate on 777s...Boeing won't want one of it's most loyal customers defecting.
 
centrair
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:29 pm

I am surprised the 748i is not in the running here. Wish it were. Seems like a good plane for very long term planning. (buy as a pax plane...later convert it to cargo).

Alas....
The A380 could have a place in the NH fleet but I can't seen very many in the fleet. A handful maybe. They would only need them on routes where there is very high demand and/or not enough slots: routes like NRT-LHR, NRT-CDG or NRT-FRA. So maybe less than 10 planes. I doubt they would do a domestic A380.

The 773ER fits their current plans as Aaron said. Markets change and maybe they will have to relook at the A380 then but as for now...773ER.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
SEPilot
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
It would seem that at some point Airbus needs to get some very good margins on the 380 if they are to break even in the 400 frame range. With all of the costs associated with the delays I would be surprised if Airbus will be able to profitably give anyone a deal they can't refuse.

On the other hand, they may be like the farmer who was told by his farmhand that it cost $20 in feed to raise a pig that sold for $15, "Well then, we'll just have to make it up in volume."
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:00 pm

Not speaking authoritatively, just going off of what a few friends inside the company have said with regard to things from the grapevine.

"Although it has no plans to acquire the A380 in the medium term"

This kind of language in Japanese traditionally means they likely won't buy it at all.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mush
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 10):
I think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300, which would put it close to the 380, depending on how they configure it.

Well, if an airline was willing to stuff a B777 to the gills by putting 500 seats in it, why would they not do the same thing (stuff it to the gills) with an A380? This aircraft would have 700-800 seats in it if ANA were to order it (for domestic use). Also, I don't buy the answer that the airline will suddenly care more about comfort and increase pitch and seat sizes for the flying public. If the airline cared so much about pitch and seat size they would already have it.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.

Does anyone know what this would scale up to for the A380? It's probably not proportional anyway...ANA isn't suddenly going to see the need for additional first class seats...if there was a need for the additional seats they would be there already. I'm of the opinion that if ANA up-gauged to the A380 that almost all of the seats would be Y class. Do they need that many? I don't know...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):

It would seem that at some point Airbus needs to get some very good margins on the 380 if they are to break even in the 400 frame range. With all of the costs associated with the delays I would be surprised if Airbus will be able to profitably give anyone a deal they can't refuse.

100% correct! Airbus aren't going to "give A380s away so they can get a blue-chip customer." Anyone who thinks Airbus gives their planes away is incredibly naive and by the way, I have a nice bridge I'm trying to sell, it's in The City of New York and connects New York County and Kings County. Anyone interested please give me a call.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 35):
They won't be able to get their hands on A380 before 2010/11 (?)

With all of the delays to the aircraft, neither will some of the airlines that ordered the aircraft in the year 2000...just kidding...

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
Boeing won't want one of it's most loyal customers defecting.

Just like they didn't want Air Berlin defecting or Air Asia defecting or BA single-aisle defecting or Eastern Airlines defecting in the 1970s or NWA defecting or United defecting...I agree that Boeing wants to keep it's customers, but sometimes stuff happens and Boeing won't be able to keep everybody happy. Also, how are ANA one of Boeing's most loyal customers when they fly A320s? (If ANA don't fly A320s anymore I apologize)


thanks,
mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
jfk777
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:27 pm

ANA switched JFK to a 773ER in May of 2005. All US destinations are now 777's, Europe still gets 744's. An ANA A380 seems too much, can they fill 475 seats to Europe or the USA ? Given the competition ANA faces not only from JAL but UA, NW & AA to America and AF, BA, VS, and LH to just the cities they fly in Europe, I would go with the 773ER with the 4 classes.

SQ and QF are different, Singapoe doesn't have another airline so it mainly competes against the foreign flag airline from the other country. Qantas has 70% if the US to Aussie market and needs the huge A380's capacity for the Kangaroo route to the UK.
 
jumboforever
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 35):
I think the timescale you are talking is short. From LHR, FRA, CDG, SIN, MEL and other places ANA will probably face direct competitive A380 flights in a few years. They won't be able to get their hands on A380 before 2010/11 (?)

ANA doesn't fly to SYD/MEL and IIRC QF never stated their A380 was going to fly to NRT, at least at first.

SQ will probably send 2 A380 a day for SQ11/12 SIN-NRT-LAX. NH is already code-sharing with them on NRT-SIN and when you consider NH is only scheduling 2x763ER daily versus all the capacity SQ has I guess they don't even consider competing with them.

Untill BA orders the A380, I don't see any 380 flying LHR-NRT in the near future. And FYI NH has just stated LHR will be served by an 773ER from spring this year.

LH and AF will send their A380 from FRA/CDG. NH is codesharing with LH. AF might be the only destination where the A380 is dangerous. But is it worth for NH to take the A380 just for a couple of destination.

So even untill 2010/2011 the A380 competition won't be that fierce.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 29):
Your 1.2 megapixel camera is perfoming miracles I see..lol. Seriously, nice pic and now I miss coming home after SFO shots.

It was a 1.6 megapixel camera..lets get that straight... Wink

Seriously though, you should stay at your adopted airport of LAX..lol!

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 34):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
NH still occasionally brings the B772-ER into SFO

I guess this is the opposite here. NRT-SFO is schedule with a 3-class (C/Y+/Y) 772ER. 4-class 773ER are occasionally sent to SFO depending on aircraft availability, but in that case first class is not offered. SFO is to get the 773ER and a daily basis from June this year.

Hmmm...intersesting.. scratchchin ..I always thought it was the other way around, as the last few times I've been to SFO, I've only seen the B773ER....you might be right though..so no comments from me.. no 
"Up the Irons!"
 
astuteman
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Mush (Reply 43):
Does anyone know what this would scale up to for the A380?

Presumably anywhere up to 853 seats.......

Regards
 
SeJoWa
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
With NH moving from the 744 to the 773ER, I can see that if they have any interest at all in something larger then a 773ER, it would be the A388. If they wanted to stay with the 747, they would have expressed interest in the 747-X or 747-Advanced programs, and they did not.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

NH currently flies the 773ER on international routes with a 8F/77C/24Y+/132Y configuration. Smile



Quoting PM (Reply 38):
Quoting Art (Reply 36):
I find it strange that the replacements considered should be lower capacity and higher capacity aircraft.

Think about it. Airlines operate airliners for at least ten and often twenty or thirty years. Once they have bought them it may be cheaper to misuse a type on a given route than to buy the ideal plane for current circumstances. (I remember KLM flying DC'8'63s to LHR.) But when they buy something new they can take the opportunity to match the plane ideally to the route. So they will commonly replace one capacity with another.

Things change. (Things fall apart. The centre cannot hold...)

Consider... Ten years or more ago I was flying ZRH to MAN on an SR A310. Then it became an A320 and by the time I stopped it was an E'145.



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
Boeing won't want one of it's most loyal customers defecting.

Interesting tidbit of information concerning ANA's considerations for 747 replacements.

Quoted from FI: "ANA operates a fleet of 23 Boeing 747-400s � 10 of which are configured with high-density cabins as �-400 Domestics� for the airline�s Japanese routes." (via Columba)

I guess not all 13 Jumbos on international routes need to be replaced by higher capacity planes - Japan has a shrinking population, after all. Not to mention the loss in flexibility that flying the Megaliner entails. (And please, it's a fact, not a gibe. Some airlines are less exposed to this risk.)

I can't help wondering if both Airbus and Boeing have got the Jumbo replacement somewhat wrong. Just what would the specs for a single variant, CFRP double decker somewhere in between the B744 and A380 be?

Of course, it's been mentioned that Airbus is simply supplying the pax version, while Boeing takes care of the freighter market. But a next gen, efficient design of the right size may better serve in both roles than the current contenders.

Would it have been realistic for Boeing to develop a new wing for the 748, and later on design a new body? It could then have been made larger whithout gaining weight.

Just some questions that get asked again and again.  Smile
 
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Aaron747
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RE: New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 34):

Noise is an issue, but it's well known that the ban of 3-4 engines at ITM was supposed to help money bleeding KIX to get more domestic flight.

That's true in part, but whatever the reason, nothing is going to help KIX get more domestic traffic anytime soon. ITM is here to stay, without 4-engine aircraft.

Quoting Mush (Reply 43):
Well, if an airline was willing to stuff a B777 to the gills by putting 500 seats in it, why would they not do the same thing (stuff it to the gills) with an A380? This aircraft would have 700-800 seats in it if ANA were to order it (for domestic use). Also, I don't buy the answer that the airline will suddenly care more about comfort and increase pitch and seat sizes for the flying public.

There has been no overall increase in capacity since the days of the 747SR. The 500 and change seats currently used in the 773 configuration are adequate to meet demand. With increased competition from shinkansen service, the Tokyo-Osaka route is the only one in which frequency is of paramount importance, and in that regard the 777 is doing the job just fine.

As for the latter part of your comments, if the flying public were to demand it, ANA and JAL would certainly improve seat size and pitch on their domestic flights. Japanese carriers respond to customer feedback better than just about anywhere.

Also, how are ANA one of Boeing's most loyal customers when they fly A320s? (If ANA don't fly A320s anymore I apologize)

ANA ordered A320s and 21s to fill a gap in the 130-155 seat category but now that 737NGs are being delivered and new slots have come online thanks to expanded facilities at HND and NGO, the Airbuses are being phased out of the fleet.

[Edited 2007-01-25 15:17:01]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty