LHboyatDTW
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DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:32 pm

Dear fellow a.netters et al

I may be new here, but I have watched these forums like a hawk and I’ve noticed a few things regarding my home airport of DTW and have been having this on the brain for ages and I would love to be able to have a good night’s sleep after thinking of these. My main question is relating in regards to a particular that we once had come here on a regular basis in the summer, but no longer comes and might not ever be a regular here ever again. Yes I’m talking about our beloved Boeing 777. I’ve seen it be a common sight over my house apart from a sea of NW and NK jets with an occasional UA or LH. I’ve seen it and thought that I may have been able to fly it to the UK someday. DTW was in fact one of the first cities in BA’s network to see the 777 as of May 1st, 1997

“May 1st, British Airways launches daily service to London (Heathrow), and debuted the new Boeing 777 aircraft. BA is the first airline to bring the 777 to DTW.”

Unfortunately I’ve seen the loads for BA’s LHR-DTW-LHR flight slowly go topsy turvy around the Ryder cup and later on, which resulted in us getting a 767 that seems to be here to stay. Have the yields on BA 202/203 been that bad with the 777 that the 767 is here to stay? I looked at one of the examples I’m well aware of the 777 coming into here for the NAIAS and I tried to see if I could go down to DTW to see it, but couldn’t come due to my final exams. I’m also aware of BA extending BA 202/203 down to IAH. My sister flew this route during August and November when she was studying in Vienna and she commented on the light loads in coach on the 767. My immediate thought is that we DTW a.netters have lost our 777 for good and that my hopes of flying a 777 to Europe without going to ORD or JFK are crushed. Therefore I have to ask these questions:

1) Will DTW ever see a regular 777 service again…from anyone (AF, BA, KL, KE? AZ?) ?
2) Is BA’s extension to IAH via DTW a last ditch effort to improve BA 202/203?
3) Why did KLM leave? Will they ever come back? I’m sure KL would not have any troubles loading up a 777 to AMS from here seeing as to how their last aircraft in here was a 744.
4) With the probable BA 777 order to replace some 767s, could this be a sign for DTW that we may be able to get the 777 back (although the 777 order could easily be converted to 77Ws or for the 748i or A380)
5) With the wrestling convention coming here in April (?), may we have a same case as we had with the NAIAS?
6) Can anyone give me some recent load factors of BA 202/203 before the IAH extension? Preferably when it was operated by a 777 and 767 for comparison.
7) Is it possible that BA may say farewell to DTW soon?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1718172 (BA Flt 202..DTW-LHR..Weird Sept. Schedule)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1854215 (BA 767 problems today at LHR)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1675936 (Change Of Aircraft BA Why?)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1417489 (New International Service from DTW?)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1238628 (thank You BA--777 Back At DTW...)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1180862 (BA 777s not flying into DTW)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/759739 (BA Resuming 777 At DTW?)
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/68677 (BA DTW 747 mystery) BA Announce Long Haul Increases (by B742 Jan 5 2007 in Civil Aviation) (BA announce long haul increases)


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cheers,
Mike

PS: I know most of my sources are kinda out of date, but to me it seems like a pattern going on with us DTWSpotters and our 777 withdrawal
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
PanAm747
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:52 pm

I hate to start out a response like this, but be grateful you've got what you've got!!  duck 

Okay, I say that only as a San Diegan who misses the days of a 777 floating majestically over Balboa Park. A 767 cannot be substituted as the engines are not rated for a one-engine clearing of the Point Loma terrain, and without being able to fill the belly with cargo (and the lack of up-front full-fares), BA had no choice but to pull out.

With a SkyTeam hub at DTW, BA still finds enough of an O&D market to fill a plane (with virtually no connecting traffic). In fact, I would assume that NW also has a DTW-LGW flight that it competes with, so those are some pretty impressive numbers. It seems that a 777 is too much of an airplane, and BA has found other international routes to be more profitable. My guess is a 767 is what is best suited for DTW.

As far as KLM is concerned, I think that NW has the agreement to fly DTW and MSP to AMS in their own metal. I know many in MSP miss the days of the big blue as opposed to the red tails. Others will have to provide an update on that situation.

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Cubsrule
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
2) Is BA’s extension to IAH via DTW a last ditch effort to improve BA 202/203?

The IAH flight has to go to LHR for oil connections, so it has to stop at a LHR gateway. This gateway must offer a partial plane full of passengers, but because those oil passengers are pretty high-yielding, yields don't have to be great. That's certainly easier for DTW than filling a whole plane with higher yields, and it may well permit 772 service at some point.
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burnsie28
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
BA still finds enough of an O&D market to fill a plane

A lot of them are coming from IAH now.
 
vega
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:28 pm

I think we've been through this a few times. BA only uses the 777 to the U.S. cities which can support the First Class cabin, otherwise they use a 767, which has Club, World Traveler and WT+ Classes only. Some multi-flight cities get both because they can only support 1 First cabin. A paid 1st Class ticket RT on BA from the East Coast to LHR is in the range of $12K+.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
1) Will DTW ever see a regular 777 service again…from anyone (AF, BA, KL, KE? AZ?) ?
2) Is BA’s extension to IAH via DTW a last ditch effort to improve BA 202/203?
3) Why did KLM leave? Will they ever come back? I’m sure KL would not have any troubles loading up a 777 to AMS from here seeing as to how their last aircraft in here was a 744.
4) With the probable BA 777 order to replace some 767s, could this be a sign for DTW that we may be able to get the 777 back (although the 777 order could easily be converted to 77Ws or for the 748i or A380)
5) With the wrestling convention coming here in April (?), may we have a same case as we had with the NAIAS?
6) Can anyone give me some recent load factors of BA 202/203 before the IAH extension? Preferably when it was operated by a 777 and 767 for comparison.
7) Is it possible that BA may say farewell to DTW soon?

1) Hard to say as airlines change equipment based on market demands. Of those listed, BA would be the best bet.
2) The IAH-DTW-LHR tag on is due to the Bermuda II and the fact that BA can't fly IAH-LHR nonstop so they must make a stop. It used to be ORD, but due to stronger local demand from ORD and due to operational issues from ORD ATC delays that were constantly delaying the IAH-ORD segments and its ability to get back to LHR in time. DTW is not in jeopardy of losing its BA service to LHR. The IAH tag on may lead to the 777 making a return due to increased traffic with the combination of DTW & IAH flights.
3) KLM left due to the NW alliance. NW & KLM operate as one across the Atlantic as the share revenues. They split the number of flights to have a nearly equal number of seats/flights and attempt to offer a similar product. As part of this, to rationalize the flights, NW operates all flights from their domestic hubs to AMS, where KLM will operate to other outstations. Hence no, you won't see KLM return to DTW, MSP, or MEM for that matter.
4,5,6) N/A
7) BA has no plans to leave DTW whatsoever.
 
LHboyatDTW
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regu

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:46 am

Thank you for the replies. I'm relieved that there's a 50/50 chance of BA giving back the 777 here. It's just a matter of how the cards are dealt from now on. Although there's only a six seat difference between the first class cabins on BA's 767 (8) and the 777 (14) which is a big difference as it's almost twice as much.

Though before anyone says that 9/11 is to blame, I'm sure that 9/11 didn't put the kibosh on BA no longer serving DTW with a 777 as I remember seeing them fly over my house as recently as Summer 05.
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regu

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
and due to operational issues from ORD ATC delays that were constantly delaying the IAH-ORD segments and its ability to get back to LHR in time.

I would imagine that FIS is also less congested in DTW, allowing them to schedule a tighter turn there on the way to IAH.
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DTWAGENT
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:37 am

Well, as a person from the DTW area, I to miss the B777's. However, we do have a load of A332 and A333's as well as B744's. The last time I was flying to FRA on LH I was on an A340. Now that is gone. I can only hope that the B777 will come back to DTW some day. However, with our economy in Michigan and in the DTW and Ann Arbor area is not good right now. So their is alot of smaller aircraft flying out of DTW. I remember when Pan Am/Delta had a B747 flying from DTW to LGW. Then it went to an L-1011. Then to canceling it all together. And DL had a Non-Stop DTW to TPA L-1011 flight. DTW has their share of heavy's. So we should be luck at that.

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luv2fly
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:48 am

The thing to remember is even though BA has no connecting traffic in DTW the flight does well as most people are connecting in LHR to the rest of the BA route map
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LHboyatDTW
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:55 am

yes we are fortunate to even have long haul services, but I used to remember when DTW was more diverse and not a bunch of A330s going to Europe (except the BA 767) and the 744s going to Japan. It would be nice to have things return to that as for me the A330s are almost becoming an eyesore like them diesel niners parked at what I like to call "deaf row."

It's true that BA doesn't have connecting traffic in DTW, but I do remember when they were once successful here with a PACKED 744 or 742.
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:19 pm

Yeah I miss the BA 744s more than I do the 772s at DTW. I thought that BA was bringing back the 772 on a regular basis in Feb due to the IAH stop.
 
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drerx7
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:30 pm

Now, in the event of Bermuda II being lifted then I'd say that DTW is stuck with the 767 indefinately as IAH-LHR would go nonstop - probably with 10X weekly if not double daily 744s.
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luv2fly
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 10):
It's true that BA doesn't have connecting traffic in DTW, but I do remember when they were once successful here with a PACKED 744 or 742.

Those flights stopped via Montreal and BA was allowed to sell tickets from DTW to Montreal.
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Cubsrule
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 12):
probably with 10X weekly if not double daily 744s.

IAH is a high-yielding destination for them, but I don't think they get that kind of traffic.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
Those flights stopped via Montreal and BA was allowed to sell tickets from DTW to Montreal.

in 2000 BA was flying direct DTW-LHR rotating 772s and 744s
 
luv2fly
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
in 2000 BA was flying direct DTW-LHR rotating 772s and 744s

Mostly 772's though until the route went 767.
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drerx7
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 12):
probably with 10X weekly if not double daily 744s.

IAH is a high-yielding destination for them, but I don't think they get that kind of traffic.

We already get twice daily 772 on CO and BA already has two 772s to LGW as well. I should have clarified--the LGW route would probably go to 1 777 if it remains and then double daily 744s to LHR.
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detroitflyer
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
which resulted in us getting a 767 that seems to be here to stay.

actually on the 5th. or 6th of jan 2007 i landed @ dtw, in a 777, BA. However the captain did say it was a special case( since we were delayed he was trying to comfort us by saying it was a faster plane)...

also saw a lh 747 taxi to the gate same day!!!!

5. loads seemed pretty full on coach
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
Mostly 772's though until the route went 767.

BA didn't go 767 at DTW until after 9-11. In 2000, it was mostly 742s and 744s with the 772 often being subbed. Still there were more 744s at least during the summer of 2000.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 18):
actually on the 5th. or 6th of jan 2007 i landed @ dtw, in a 777, BA. However the captain did say it was a special case( since we were delayed he was trying to comfort us by saying it was a faster plane)...

also saw a lh 747 taxi to the gate same day!!!!

5. loads seemed pretty full on coach

That was due to the Detroit International Autoshow.
 
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:58 am

Not many peope know that BA has served DTW longer than any other airline. BA predecessor BOAC began flying to DTW in 1956, with Boeing Stratocruisers.

BA (and Pan Am, which began flying to DTW in 1954) were the only airlines at DTW until 1958, when American and Allegheney moved to DTW from YIP.
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 20):
BA (and Pan Am, which began flying to DTW in 1954) were the only airlines at DTW until 1958, when American and Allegheney moved to DTW from YIP.

According to Metroairport.com, BA and PA started service at what would later be renamed DTW in 1950, but then says they moved from Willow Run in '58?

Which is it?

http://www.metroairport.com/about/history.asp
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NW748i
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
1) Will DTW ever see a regular 777 service again…from anyone (AF, BA, KL, KE? AZ?) ?

You bet... once the AA/NW dream merger happens!
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WA707atMSP
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 21):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 20):
BA (and Pan Am, which began flying to DTW in 1954) were the only airlines at DTW until 1958, when American and Allegheney moved to DTW from YIP.

According to Metroairport.com, BA and PA started service at what would later be renamed DTW in 1950, but then says they moved from Willow Run in '58?

Which is it?

15 years ago, I wrote a history of DTW for the Captain's Log (the World Airline Historical Society's magazine). When I was doing my research, I discovered that there was virtually no written record of DTW's history in the archives at the airport, or the Wayne County Road Commission (which owns DTW), and the limited information in DTW's files was very inaccurate.

I wound up doing most of my research at the Burton Historical Collection of the Detroit Public Library, and at the University of Michigan's libraries in Ann Arbor. I also asked friends who had large timetable collections for help.

That's how I found out about PA and BOAC's service to DTW.
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Dtw757
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
DTW was in fact one of the first cities in BA’s network to see the 777 as of May 1st, 1997

I think that the first 777 I ever laid eyes on was at DTW in Summer 1997. I was leaving for SAN on a NW A320 and remember looking out the window and seeing the BA 777 coming toward us with those huge engines.

One time a few years back, I was driving up 275 and a NW 330 took off followed by the BA777, and then the LH340. It was great. I too hope we'll see the 777 back in DTW sometime as well. It would be really nice if it had a red tail but it doesn't look like that will happen.
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 20):
Not many peope know that BA has served DTW longer than any other airline. BA predecessor BOAC began flying to DTW in 1956, with Boeing Stratocruisers.

I think BA been flying to the Detroit area even longer than that when it first flew to YIP.

Incidentally, my father flew on BOAC's VC-10 back in the mid 1960s. He said he made a stop at BOS on the way to LHR.

My mom in the early 1960s flew on a British Caledonian charter - on either a Britania or the similar Canadair aircraft. She had a picture of it though that looked like a Britania. They flew to LGW. They went non stop from DTW-LGW and she said it was a cargo plane converted into a passenger plane.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 23):
15 years ago, I wrote a history of DTW for the Captain's Log (the World Airline Historical Society's magazine). When I was doing my research, I discovered that there was virtually no written record of DTW's history in the archives at the airport, or the Wayne County Road Commission (which owns DTW), and the limited information in DTW's files was very inaccurate.

Actually Wayne County Airport Authority owns DTW, not Road Commission. Before the WCAA it was just Wayne County.

There is a small timeline on the DTW website now that dates back to the YIP days and who moved to DTW when, and when such and such terminals/runways were built.

I thought a few years back, and this may have been in the late 1990s that there was a 50th anniversary of BA serving the Detroit area.
 
LHboyatDTW
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:08 pm

The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
iahflyer
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
BA’s LHR-DTW-LHR flight

BA needs to drop the DTW portion and make the flight nonstop to IAH!!! With 4 other daily nonstops to London on BA and CO that would probably improve yields.
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UnitedTristar
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 27):
BA needs to drop the DTW portion and make the flight nonstop to IAH!!!

IAH to LHR nonstop is not possible due to Bermuda II. I believe BA does LGW nonstop but that doesn't cater very well to their Oil Traffic that needs to connect in LHR to get to the middle east.

-m

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iahflyer
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 28):
IAH to LHR nonstop is not possible due to BERMUDA II.

I have never heard of that before, sorry.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
LHboyatDTW
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RE: DTW And The 777, Will It Ever Return As A Regular?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:12 pm

Though I heard from people on here that the IAH extension helps DTW in terms of yields. I was hoping to see a 777 come back here for the summer at least where it's the peak season for going to Europe.

May the 777 return sometime between now and 2010 where I will go to Sweden.  pray 
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.