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keesje
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First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:10 pm

The 787 slightly overweight and a 2 percent reduction will be required. According to Carson, no one area of the structure is to blame — everything from the wing box to the tail to the wiring is slightly heavier than expected.

While the first six aircraft built for testing and certification will exceed optimum weight, the focus is on meeting weight targets from the seventh plane onward.

http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2007/January/1561

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
osiris30
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
While the first six aircraft built for testing and certification will exceed optimum weight,

Optimum weight.. not contractually obligated weight.. This is not even close to news honestly.. Boeing has been saying this for months.
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:24 pm

So not only the A380 needs a diet. Too bad for the Boeing cheerleaders
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The 787 slightly overweight and a 2 percent reduction will be required

Always a normal thing until they get the problemsa sorted
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osiris30
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
So not only the A380 needs a diet. Too bad for the Boeing cheerleaders

Nice dancing pom-pom icon.. but shame you haven't actually noticed that this is actually OLD news and was discussed... oh.. 6+ months ago.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
MarBergi
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 1):
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
While the first six aircraft built for testing and certification will exceed optimum weight,

Optimum weight.. not contractually obligated weight.. This is not even close to news honestly.. Boeing has been saying this for months.

I dont really see what the problem is. As stated as long as the Optimum weight isnt whats been promised to the airlines then Boeing is fine. Also going by Boeings previous peformance they tend to give themselves some wiggle room when it comes to promised spec and delivered spec and I expect this to be no different.
 
EI321
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:34 pm

Anyway, next question, how exactly are they going to shed this weight?

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
Osiris30

Dont take it to heart, its not a big deal.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:35 pm

I think something really major has to happen before the Boeing cheerleaders stop cheering. I am sure that the Boeing and its partners will get the problem sorted out.

Regards
Eagles Soar!
 
EvilForce
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
Anyway, next question, how exactly are they going to shed this weight?

Scrap all the IFE's. Hand out pre-flight newspapers instead.  duck   duck 
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keesje
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
oh.. 6+ months ago.

But it's apparently still a problem, it's just not fixed.

Carson says everything is a little overweight. Not an isolated problem. It requires everybody everywhere to work on weight reduction, while ramping up production / completing certification.

I agree with Carson 2007 will be a real challenge.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
slz396
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 9):
Scrap all the IFE's. Hand out pre-flight newspapers instead.

Don't forget the tinfoil hats distributed to the pax free of charge (pun intended) to cope with all the static discharging...

Seriously though...
So much for the 'Boeing is always exceeding its targets' mantra from A.net... They may indeed, but clearly not from the start, which indeed isn't such a big deal. (Oh but wait a second, if Airbus does it that way, isn't that called 'taking another shot to get it right'?)

[Edited 2007-01-25 14:46:35]
 
Rj111
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 pm

Considering the amount of attention the A380's weight problem got i don't see what's wrong with reporting the specifics of the 787's problem.
 
Lumberton
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:59 pm

OK, what are the "specifics"? The 2% overweight has indeed been in the public domain for quite some time.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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sebolino
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
the focus is on meeting weight targets from the seventh plane onward.

This part is important, even if it's "optimum weight" Boeing is still trying to reach it.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
But it's apparently still a problem, it's just not fixed.

I agree. Not so long ago we were hearing that the problem was virtually solved.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
So much for the 'Boeing is always exceeding its targets' mantra from A.net.

I don't see that argument going away. Too many people accept the contract guarantee weights as being the goal, and then declare that meeting the published target weights is somehow going above and beyond.

[edit - spelling]

[Edited 2007-01-25 15:13:08]
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aa1818
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:14 pm

Boeing is still meeting its contractual obligations. However, Boeing is not doing what it does best- BEAT EXPECTATIONS. In this case, they will sort it out and beat expectations from the 7th plane. Noteworthy, despite what many say here, however, it is largely sensational.

AA1818
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
Nice dancing pom-pom icon.. but shame you haven't actually noticed that this is actually OLD news and was discussed... oh.. 6+ months ago.

I try to stay out of Civ Av  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
leelaw
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:34 pm

I'm sure Mr. McNerney and and any other Boeing executives participating in next week's 2006 financial results dog and pony show will be rigorously grilled by the financial analysts and media present on this matter, and all other "concerns" about the 787. Pay close attention to whether or not the forecast R & D spending is increased again as a good substantive/objective indicator of whether Boeing's overall development/industrialization plans for the 787 program remain on track.
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airfrnt
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:43 pm

Quote:

The Boeing Co. (Seattle, Wash.) celebrated the “virtual roll out” of its 787 Dreamliner at an event hosted Dec. 6, 2006 by Mike Bair

And this is getting reposted two months later why?

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 12):
Considering the amount of attention the A380's weight problem got i don't see what's wrong with reporting the specifics of the 787's problem.

I can go back two months ago, or back to October and start reposting all of the end of the world A380 articles to keep the comparison up. Or we can just wait until Boeing's end FY conference in a few weeks and talk about something new, rather then digging up old news to make a point.
 
n1786b
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
So not only the A380 needs a diet. Too bad for the Boeing cheerleaders



Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 8):
I think something really major has to happen before the Boeing cheerleaders stop cheering. I am sure that the Boeing and its partners will get the problem sorted out.

Well the A380 mess, the Noel & company (over 500 employees) insider trading scandal, the clearstream smear campaign, the loss of the order crown, the A350's long gestation and launch, the CEO musical chairs and other untold/unknown stories certainly haven't stopped the Airbus cool-aid drinkers.

Cheerleaders will never stop rooting for their favorite team, myself included.  hyper 

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 16):

I agree. Not so long ago we were hearing that the problem was virtually solved.

Source please?

This is OLD news - even the article states Carson made the comments on Dec. 6th.

- n1786b
 
EI321
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 20):
And this is getting reposted two months later why?

Article is dated January 2007, thats just a line in it.
 
ltbewr
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:46 pm

Will there be an additional discount or pricing deal for the 1st 7 - 787's to compensate the purchasing airlines for the additional fuel burn due to the higher weight? Could the retrofit some weight savings in the future, perhaps installed at a check? Still, the 787 will be much more efficient per passanger/mile than other a/c in it's size class, they have reached contractualy agreed to weights, so this is not too big of a deal. I do hope that they can shave that 2% more, and with lighter and stronger materials, and once in use, they can figure out new savings.
 
EI321
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting N1786b (Reply 21):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
So not only the A380 needs a diet. Too bad for the Boeing cheerleaders



Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 8):
I think something really major has to happen before the Boeing cheerleaders stop cheering. I am sure that the Boeing and its partners will get the problem sorted out.

Well the A380 mess, the Noel & company (over 500 employees) insider trading scandal, the clearstream smear campaign, the loss of the order crown, the A350's long gestation and launch, the CEO musical chairs and other untold/unknown stories certainly haven't stopped the Airbus cool-aid drinkers.

Cheerleaders will never stop rooting for their favorite team, myself included.

This is a 787 thread. Im Not really interested in the initial models being overweight, Im interested in how the problem will be solved, thats what we should be disscussing.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 9):
Scrap all the IFE's. Hand out pre-flight newspapers instead.

Yeah, but what about the weight of the newspapers?
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NYC777
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 21):
Will there be an additional discount or pricing deal for the 1st 7 - 787's to compensate the purchasing airlines for the additional fuel burn due to the higher weight? Could the retrofit some weight savings in the future, perhaps installed at a check? Still, the 787 will be much more efficient per passanger/mile than other a/c in it's size class, they have reached contractualy agreed to weights, so this is not too big of a deal. I do hope that they can shave that 2% more, and with lighter and stronger materials, and once in use, they can figure out new savings.

They are within contractual weight. There would be no penalties unless the fuel burn exceeded what is promised. They are trying to trim weight to an internal (read: non-contractual) weight.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
airfrnt
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 20):

Article is dated January 2007, thats just a line in it.

The events that it is referring too, both the virtual roll out, and the financial conference both occurred before December 6th, IIRC.

Look, it's always tough to pull down weight numbers. Period. No matter what plane you are working on, it will always be a challenge. In Boeing's case, because of the extraordinary way that they are building this plane, it will be more of a challenge. Everyone here knows that.

But there is a element of BvA fanboyism that comes up here. Basically these posts have evolved into the Airbus cheerleaders saying "see... Airbus really isn't so bad with the A380 because the 787 will be late and overweight".

I will be the first to admit that I have had to eat some crow on the 787 IFE (primarily because I have too much experience with 802.11 standards that gave me a false set of confidence that there would not be regulatory issues). But Kseeje and others are setting themselves up for a massive amount of crow pie if the 787 doesn't come in 4 tons overweight, 2 years late.
 
EI321
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 24):
They are trying to trim weight to an internal (read: non-contractual) weight.

And whay we need to know is how they will do this.
 
osiris30
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:55 pm

@keesje:

No it's really not news. A while back Boeing said they were 2% over their targets. They also said that the overage didn't impact their customer agreements (hence they are within contractual obligations).

I for one don't recall Boeing ever saying the problem would be solved for the test frames. I do recall a statement to the effect of: 'we are working the problem and have some good areas to start on'

@all:

Just a quick note here. The fact that the first 6 will be overweight doesn't mean the engineering to shave that weight is somehow not finished. It takes time to go from blueprint to production. With the aggressive schedule for the 787 I'm not surprised Boeing is building some under the original design while they tweak design and processes for later planes.

Better than stopping the whole thing to rejig everything for a month or two. If the can rejig in parallel with production that strikes me as good management and a prudent decision to keep the program on track.
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 19):

This is OLD news - even the article states Carson made the comments on Dec. 6th.

C'mon, go with it! Keesje needed something to cheer him up, and posting bad news about Boeing always does that for him, even if it is recycled bad news. We're all friends here on a.net, so can't we all just humour Keesje a bit?

And he also found a nice picture to post, too! That alone makes him a great guy in my book.
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EI321
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 25):
But there is a element of BvA fanboyism that comes up here. Basically these posts have evolved into the Airbus cheerleaders saying "see... Airbus really isn't so bad with the A380 because the 787 will be late and overweight".

Unfortunatly it happens, I suspect that all the airbus fans have been waiting in the grass after the over top critisms that the A380 recieved.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 27):
No it's really not news. A while back Boeing said they were 2% over their targets.

I dont think news is the issue at hand. We have known for a year or longer about this 2% weight issue on the 787, what interests me is that it does not seem to have changed and we are now so close to assembly. Its no big deal if the first batch is above targets, thats normal on most new aircraft programmes, but what I want to know is how they have or will solve this issue. We know for instance that the first batch of A380s will not be as good as the second batch, but we also know why and how the second batch will be improved, this is what I want to know about the 787 - After the first six, what changes will be made to bring the aircraft in line with its targets???
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 19):
Source please?

See Reply#8 RE: 787 On Schedule (by Leelaw Dec 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
osiris30
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:28 am

@ei321:

All that has been said there is the first 6 will be over target. There is an assumption being made the design is still 2% overweight. Yet I don't see any confirmation of that. All I see is 'the design we are building right now is'. Everyone forgets it takes time to get a new design into production. The fact Boeing can cite a specific frame for weight savings tells me all I need to know  Wink
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leelaw
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
We're all friends here on a.net, so can't we all just humour Keesje a bit?

 checkmark  Remember, the A.net equivalent of a "novena" requires nine separate threads on nine consecutive days for the particular "intercession" being sought to be forthcoming.  pray 
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TomB
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:32 am

I have a friend who is an Economics professor in the Long Beach, CA. The friend is a Boeing stockholder and former private pilot.

In early January, my friend bumped into a Boeing engineer acquaintance who was vacationing in Long Beach. The Boeing engineer is a structural engineer on the Boeing 787 program in the Seattle area. When asked about the weight of the 787, the Boeing engineer said he was very confident about Boeing meeting the internal weight targets on the 787 program.

So now we have hearsay information from a knowledgeable source.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:41 am

So if i am to understand, their testing birds are overweight? It does not sound as if A) they are over contract weight, or B) this birds over optimal weight will even go to customers. I'm not sure what all the commotion is about. Airbus delivered its first A346 above promised weight.... and then there is the A380... whose first examples, likewise.

This sounds to be not above promised weight and well on its way to target weight.

Keesje, I know the idea of Boeing failing tickles you, but don't jump the gun yet.

Boeing has yet to fail to meet numbers on a project like this.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
aerobalance
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:45 am

BFD, I'm sure the a/c still meets it's range and payload targets - even at this time of DEVELOPMENT.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
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keesje
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 30):
Quoting N1786b (Reply 19):
Source please?

See Reply#8
RE: 787 On Schedule (by Leelaw Dec 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Last month the news was the 787 was on schedule and the aircraft was 2% more efficient than promised. The Aircraft was 500 pounds overweight and the fact that the 787 is of composites will make it easier for engineers to reduce the total weight of the aircraft.

This month we have an article citing 2%, an uncertified Dreamlifter delivering an unwired torsion box & the CEO saying he is investing another Billion.

I think there is a large crowd downplaying everything, questioning sources & and seeing no problems down the way, but meanwhile is considering selling their stock today.

 Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:51 am

On the plus side, Boeing evidently has six birds in production, so looks like she just might take to the skies on schedule as planned...

Also, this weight may be related to the "hand built" nature of the first few birds due to supplier's inability to meet the initial completion targets for their parts, just as the first A388s will weigh more then the "true" serial production birds because of their "hand built" nature.

Boeing appears confident that they will meet the performance guarantees even with 2% overweight birds, so they'd rather build them on time and a bit heavy then delay production to make them as light as possible. So that implies the "serial production" 787s will exceed the performance guarantees.  thumbsup 
 
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 34):
So if i am to understand, their testing birds are overweight? It does not sound as if A) they are over contract weight, or B) this birds over optimal weight will even go to customers.

Boeing will not keep any 787s. 2 of the first frames are used for structural and fatigue testing and are tested to destruction. I'm not sure these 2 are in the count of 6. But it's clear to me at least some of the heavier birds will eventually go to customers after flight testing is done and all the testing gear is ripped out and the customer's interior is installed. One can speculate this means the heavier birds are still within contract weight, or one can speculate that the testing birds have more liberal weight provisions in their contracts. Since none of us have access to the contracts, we don't know, but a.net lives on speculation, so feel free to chime in....
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leelaw
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 36):
I think there is a large crowd downplaying everything, questioning sources & and seeing no problems down the way, but meanwhile is considering selling their stock today.

So far today the stock hasn't been down more than $.50 and volume doesn't seem to be particularly heavy. Nevertheless, it's still not too late for you to buy your put options.  Smile
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Aviator27
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:59 am

Wow, my head is spinning. Optimum weight, target weight, contract weight, published weight, media weight, web site weight, and weight watchers. The list goes on and on. Personally I have never seen a purchase agreement for an airplane in development but I seriously doubt there are that many weights out there. It all seems like bologna to me (nice place, everyone should visit if they get a chance).

A lot of people have been saying this is old news. I believe this airplane has been 2% overweight for over one year now. Either Boeing was lying (which I doubt) or they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to no effect trying to tackle this issue. Remember all the added money and resources Boeing poured into the project to get it back to "whichever weight you want to use". I think the lack of progress on the weight issue is the real news, not that its actually overweight.

Something seems amiss, but somehow I believe this year we will see a clearer picture of reality just like how the hubris around the A380 faded away last year.
 
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zeke
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 36):

This month we have an article citing 2%, an uncertified Dreamlifter delivering an unwired torsion box & the CEO saying he is investing another Billion.

I think it is a little too early to be calling this, 2% could be a small deal, and could mearly be attributed to first production models not being made in the final process specification etc.

Will have to wait until this pans out a little further, sounds like it is being managed well to be ontop of it so early.

It is taking Airbus 54 airframes to drop the 380 weight by around 1%, 6 frames to drop 2% is good going.

Also have noted no news on the Dreamlifter certification.
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n1786b
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
This is a 787 thread. Im Not really interested in the initial models being overweight, Im interested in how the problem will be solved, thats what we should be disscussing.

Fine with me - next time tell THEM.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 20):
Article is dated January 2007, thats just a line in it.

Well, what if it is a monthly magazine? I mean this is NOT news and if you wanted to talk about the 787 being overweight, then you should have joined in the conversation right after the virtual roll-out.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 26):
And whay we need to know is how they will do this.

We don't "need" to know anything - this is an issue between Boeing and their customers right now. If it will have an impact on earnings or share price, they have to share the information with stakeholders. They are continually working on the weight and we have recently seen the weight drop by 150 pounds with the IFE changes.  Smile

Anyhow, I'm sure we will be hearing a lot more about this during the earnings conference call and Q&A session next week - stay tuned.

- n1786b
 
BoomBoom
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RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Require

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 20):
Article is dated January 2007, thats just a line in it.

Because apparently it only comes out monthly and this "breaking news" came too late to make the December 2006 issue.  Yeah sure

Quoting EI321 (Reply 29):
but what I want to know is how they have or will solve this issue

Dropping the wireless IFE is good for a few pounds:

Quote:
(Boeing) found each seat row would have to be fitted with a one-pound antenna, and 23 wireless access points weighing two pounds each would need to be installed on beefed-up ceiling panels. Mr. Sinnett said the additional equipment increased the 787's weight by 200 pounds, compared with 50 pounds for traditional wiring.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1169...986824.html?mod=home_whats_news_us
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
I'm sure Mr. McNerney and and any other Boeing executives participating in next week's 2006 financial results dog and pony show will be rigorously grilled by the financial analysts and media present on this matter, and all other "concerns" about the 787. Pay close attention to whether or not the forecast R & D spending is increased again as a good substantive/objective indicator of whether Boeing's overall development/industrialization plans for the 787 program remain on track.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 39):
So far today the stock hasn't been down more than $.50 and volume doesn't seem to be particularly heavy. Nevertheless, it's still not too late for you to buy your put options. Smile

It appears that Wall Street does not read A.net, does it? Or perhaps they understand. I believe that Leelaw has pretty much nailed the real issues to to watch -- Boeing R&D.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 40):
I believe this airplane has been 2% overweight for over one year now. Either Boeing was lying (which I doubt) or they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to no effect trying to tackle this issue. Remember all the added money and resources Boeing poured into the project to get it back to "whichever weight you want to use". I think the lack of progress on the weight issue is the real news, not that its actually overweight.

Of course, we don't know if all those monies were spent to get the weight down from MSN001 (or whatever serial number the first 787 will have) onwards or if it was spent to get the weight down from the first "serial production" bird (assuming the seventh is this bird) on.

Boeing has known for some time that the chances of them having to do some "hand building" of the first few birds was likely, and that chance was growing as the program came closer to the first production parts being delivered.

It is possible that Boeing knew these first few birds were going to be portly and the effort might have been made to ensure the remainder were closer to (or on) target, especially if they felt (as their statements say) that even overweight, the first birds would meet their requirements.

NH is on record noting they were worried about weight at first, but not anymore. Since we know at least some (if not all) of these first six birds are going to them, Boeing appears to have convinced them that the weight problem will be tackled with later birds and that performance will not suffer on the earlier birds and will improve with the later ones.
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 32):
Remember, the A.net equivalent of a "novena" requires nine separate threads on nine consecutive days for the particular "intercession" being sought to be forthcoming.

Oh my God that made me laugh.

Prediction: As I said in my first ever post to A.Net, the 787 will change the face of economies throughout the world by bringing non-stop service to places that, until today, require connections between the US, Asia and, let's say, Africa and the sub-continent.

This aircraft will do for the world what my beloved b707 did, change economies, bring families together quicker and shrink the world, yet again.

The 2% weight 'issue' is a non-issue folks, let's keep our eyes on the big picture, por favor.
 
art
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The 787 slightly overweight and a 2 percent reduction will be required.

Is what you say right or is it wrong? Will a 2% reduction in weight be required for the 787 to meet contractual obligations, or won't it? If the answer is "no" then your statement is wrong.

To put it another way, if I agree to sell you a kilo of rice for 1 euro but hope to be able to give you more than a kilo at the same price, have I failed if I give you a kilo of rice for 1 euro?
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 1):
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
While the first six aircraft built for testing and certification will exceed optimum weight,

Optimum weight.. not contractually obligated weight.. This is not even close to news honestly.. Boeing has been saying this for months

And what a shocker that Keesje is trying to make something of it.

I sure hope he's getting paid for being an Airbus cheerleader.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: First 6 B787s Overweight, 2% Reduction Required.

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 41):
I think it is a little too early to be calling this, 2% could be a small deal, and could mearly be attributed to first production models not being made in the final process specification etc.

IIRC Last summer or so Boeing sent teams to each of their suppliers to deal with an overdesign problem. The subcontractors were nervous and adding a bit of material to parts, thinking to increase safety margins. Boeing was insisting that all required margins were built in and that parts were to be made to spec. The problem on the initial production items may be a consequence of that excessive caution on the part of the suppliers. Does anyone recall this story; perhaps provide a link?

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 46):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 32):
Remember, the A.net equivalent of a "novena" requires nine separate threads on nine consecutive days for the particular "intercession" being sought to be forthcoming.
Oh my God that made me laugh.

Me too!  rotfl 
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