n1786b
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Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:49 am

Of interest:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thai Airways to Talk With Airbus on Ordering 12 A330s

By Anuchit Nguyen

Jan. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Thai Airways International Pcl, Southeast Asia's second-biggest carrier by market value, said it plans talks tomorrow with Airbus SAS on a possible order of as many as 12 A330 airliners.

The carrier was offered the planes at $90 million each, a discount of as much as 10 percent, as part of Airbus's compensation for delays in delivering six A380 aircraft, Thai Airways Chairman Chalit Pukbhasuk told reporters today after a nine-hour board meeting in Bangkok.

''We want to get the largest discount for the new aircraft as possible because the delay of the A380s has significantly hurt our business expansion plan,'' Chalit said. ''The talks will also focus on the deposit of about $80 million that Thai Airways already paid for the six A380s on order.''

....

List Prices

The 253- to 335-seat A330 lists for $165 million to $182.8 million a plane. The list price doesn't take account of discounts that airlines usually receive for large orders.

Thai Airways President Apinan Sumanaseni said in an interview that the airline had already been offered the aircraft at $100 million before the additional 10 percent discount.

End extract.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aEaQZZwC3jMI


Not bad - good info here - $80m deposit for 6 A380s.

And $90M for a A330 - talk about a discount!

- n1786b
 
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:56 am

Sumanaseni should fight harder. Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.  Smile


Seriously, aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.
 
redflyer
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.

Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus. That has got to hurt A350 sales. Why would anyone fork over a lot of money for a next-gen aircraft, regardless of its efficiencies, when a current-gen, which is already pretty efficient, can be had for so cheap?
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RedChili
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.

Probably without engines.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Seriously, aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.

Most A330s sold last year were the A332, but TG will probably get the A333. So 90 million for an A333 is really a good price if the average A330 goes for 94 million.
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EvilForce
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus.

No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330. It's what the things cost.
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PolymerPlane
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):

Considering that 767 is a much older airplane and the list price is already lower than A330 by $15M to 25$M, I would say A330 is now on a big sale.

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astuteman
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus

I don't actually think that's the case at all.

According to the Avitas information, the average "discount" from list for ALL aircraft, from both manufacturers, was 40% last year (39% for Boeing, and 41% for Airbus).
As both manufacturers currently operate on c.10% operating margins (pre-exceptionals - like A380 stuff-ups...), it begs the question "what does the "discounted price" actually relate to, as compared to the list price (i.e., are engines included, are the OEM's discounting the front-end heavily, but then loading in extras or long-term support contracts on extremely good terms...)

As Stitch said, Avitas quote $94m average for A330's, so the original $100m ask sounds like "good" terms (in as much as they're better than average). If the $10m reduction is part of the A380 compensation, it still doesn't sound like a particularly bad deal.

Boeing are only making fractionally smaller discounts, according to Avitas.

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redflyer
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):
No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330.

Somehow I can't see the 767, an almost 30 year old design whose civilian production has for all intents and purposes run its course, eating into sales of the 787. Boeing has pushed the trickle of recent civilian orders just to keep the line open long enough to land the USAF tanker contract.
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EvilForce
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
Somehow I can't see the 767, an almost 30 year old design whose civilian production has for all intents and purposes run its course, eating into sales of the 787.

Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales. Airbus will continue making A330's at reasonable profits until the A350 line is up and running. The 777 and A330 are selling quite well still because the 787 and 350 aren't available until 2014'ish for any new orders. That's a lifetime away.
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khobar
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):
No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330. It's what the things cost.

But the A330 is in high demand, so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

$90M - nice!
 
EvilForce
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

And they are. It's a superior aircraft, hence why they can get another $15 million or more for them.
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus.

As Astuteman noted, Avitas calculated the following discounts:

717 - 37%
737 - 35%
767 - 41%
777 - 41%
747 - 40%

A320 - 38%
A330 - 43%
A340 - 45%

Avitas did not list a 787 discount, but Teal Group calculated a 25% average discount for the 787 in 2005.

Quote:
That has got to hurt A350 sales. Why would anyone fork over a lot of money for a next-gen aircraft, regardless of its efficiencies, when a current-gen, which is already pretty efficient, can be had for so cheap?

Chances are you'll save more in operating costs on the new plane then you would in the purchase price of the older one.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
(the $75 million price is) probably without engines.

If list prices are calculated with engines (and I believe they are), then so should the prices Avitas calculates.
 
redflyer
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 8):
Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales.

How do you know? How much is Airbus selling the A350 for, including any discounts?
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
How much is Airbus selling the A350 for, including any discounts?

Based on Teal Group's 2005 report, the projected average list price of the A350 (not A350XWB) was $171 million with a projected average sale price of $116 million for a 32% discount.
 
cobra27
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:55 am

Those list price are on average 30-40% over real prices.
 
khobar
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 10):
And they are. It's a superior aircraft, hence why they can get another $15 million or more for them.

767 already lists for $15M-$25M less than A330, as PolymerPlane pointed out. If, as you contend, Airbus can only get $15M more than a 767 that costs $15M-$25M less to begin with, that doesn't speak highly of the A330 at all. And Avitas confirms that Airbus offers bigger discounts on the A330 than Boeing does on the 767. Interesting, very interesting.
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
That has got to hurt A350 sales.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 8):
Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales. Airbus will continue making A330's at reasonable profits until the A350 line is up and running. T

We'll just have to see how this shakes out. Airlines getting A330s in 2008-2009 won't be in any hurry to replace them, even if the A350 offers better operating economics.
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Rj111
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
But the A330 is in high demand, so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Whether it will encroach though on the A350 is and important point. Certainly flogging A330's to airlines like NW, QF and SQ isn't really a problem as they have already selected the 787. Also a lot of these airlines will simply sell the A330 relatively early in its life and take advantage of its high residual value. Then move onto the next generation of aircraft.
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Whether it will encroach though on the A350 is and important point. Certainly flogging A330's to airlines like NW, QF and SQ isn't really a problem as they have already selected the 787. Also a lot of these airlines will simply sell the A330 relatively early in its life and take advantage of its high residual value. Then move onto the next generation of aircraft.

Unfortunately, with the 787 having sold 450 +/- frames, Boeing are probably now in the same position with the 787 as Airbus with their A330 and A320. Wonder if this will have an adverse effect on A350 pricing, which still needs to recoup the 15 billion dollar investment and no firm orders.

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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

And I imagine that as the A350XWB prepares to enter service, Boeing will start to cut 777 prices harder and that family could experience it's own order boost.
 
behramjee
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:37 am

$ 90 million seems to be a discounted price for an A 332 and not an A 333 of which TG fly many.

I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe such as BRU/DME/TXL & the Middle East such as CAI, RUH, AMM & IKA. All these routes have the perfect market in the A 332 size category i.e. 2 class configured 230-240 seater aircraft.
 
khobar
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Airbus made a loss last year. Normally that would have some impact on deep discounts for a high-demand product that has no real competition.

What you're suggesting is one of the most hotly denied arguments of most A vs B, err, discussions. So, surely you jest, yes?
 
BN727
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:12 pm

Is it me or has the price of new Airplanes over the last 25 years exceeded inflation by a global 100.000 miles..B747 in 1973 at 25 million...God knows what they are now..A330 at 90 million today. I'll bet they were half that 10 years ago. Are airframe manufactures gouging like the oil companies have been?
 
manni
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:16 pm

Again good news for a fantastic aircraft. The A330 is giving every other widebody a run for its money this month.

At a listprice of US$165 million and a production cost equal to approximately 40% (that would exclude the engines) of the listprice, US$90 million doesn't strike me as unreasonable, also consider that compensation payments are included aswell. After all is said and done it seems that Airbus will still be able to make a profit of about US$10 million on each A330, despite the compensation payments.

I also seem to remember that the A333 is actually cheaper then the A332. Can anyone confirm?

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 20):
I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe such as BRU/DME/TXL & the Middle East such as CAI, RUH, AMM & IKA.

I like the sound of it. Especially BRU as a future TG destination.
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
I also seem to remember that the A333 is actually cheaper then the A332. Can anyone confirm?

As per Airbus' last price hike:

A330-200: 159.8-168.9 million USD
A330-300: 177.9-187.6 million USD
 
manni
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
As per Airbus' last price hike:

A330-200: 159.8-168.9 million USD
A330-300: 177.9-187.6 million USD

Thanks Stitch. So I recalled it wrong.
Where did you find these numbers?

The price of the A333 seems rather high IMO (I'm not doubting the figures posted), the A330F is based on the A333 (am I right?) and is listed for considerably less looking at recent press reports reffering to the purchase of A330F and its listprice value.
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
Where did you find these numbers?

It's an industry trade called Access Intelligence.

They have an aircraft valuation section which has a lot of neat information. I don't subscribe (it's $1100 a year), but I was able to glean some information from a former colleague who did.

The list prices are direct from Airbus and reflect after the 2006 4.5% price hike (which matched Boeing's). Unfortunately, the data did not include list prices for the A300-600R and A310 as those models were being discontinued, nor did it include a price for the A330-200F as it had not yet been formally offered for sale.
 
rwessel
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting BN727 (Reply 22):
Is it me or has the price of new Airplanes over the last 25 years exceeded inflation by a global 100.000 miles..B747 in 1973 at 25 million...God knows what they are now..A330 at 90 million today. I'll bet they were half that 10 years ago. Are airframe manufactures gouging like the oil companies have been?

Well, I have the 1967 list price for a 747-100 as $24M. From 1967 to 2006, the U.S. CPI has increased by about a factor of 6.04, which would imply a straight inflation adjusted 2006 price for new 747-100 to be $145M.

Comparing that number to current list prices is difficult. Obviously a 744 or 748 are considerably more capable airplanes than a 741, and second, I suspect (although have no hard evidence) that the average discount from list is significantly higher now than in was in 1967. And then the 1967 number is a single point when it clearly should be a range. Also, it’s not at all clear that CPI is the correct inflation index to be using.
 
manni
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
It's an industry trade called Access Intelligence.

They have an aircraft valuation section which has a lot of neat information. I don't subscribe (it's $1100 a year), but I was able to glean some information from a former colleague who did.

The list prices are direct from Airbus and reflect after the 2006 4.5% price hike (which matched Boeing's). Unfortunately, the data did not include list prices for the A300-600R and A310 as those models were being discontinued, nor did it include a price for the A330-200F as it had not yet been formally offered for sale.

Very interesting.  thumbsup  It's a pitty Airbus doesn't post it on her website.


Here's another link to the story.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070126/thailand_airbus.html?.v=1

"With the newly-offered discount, the A330-300s would cost $90 million each. Chalit said the board was likely to accept Airbus' offer because Thai Airways plans to retire dozens of planes over the next decade after 20 years in service. The carrier plans to retire three planes in the near future and a total of 40 in 10 years.

Chalit said it was still "possible" that Thai Airways would cancel the purchase of the A380s if it was not satisfied with the outcome of negotiations. Cancellation, however, would mean the airline would forfeit a total deposit of $97 million on the six aircraft, he said."

----------------------------------------------------------

US$97 million would be lost if TG cancels. Makes me wonder how much UPS has lost by cancelling 10 of them.
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Lumberton
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
Makes me wonder how much UPS has lost by cancelling 10 of them.

Has there been confirmation that UPS canceled? Airbus denied it and UPS was quoted as saying that they were still in discussion. FEDEX however....
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manni
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 29):
Has there been confirmation that UPS canceled? Airbus denied it and UPS was quoted as saying that they were still in discussion. FEDEX however....

Sorry Lumberton, I'm wrong, I was reffering to the FedEx cancellation. The French newspaper Les Echos reported that a cancellation would come next week (this was last week), we're friday now (or thursday in the US). We're likely to find out soon how accurate that report is.
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karan69
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 20):
I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe such as BRU/DME/TXL & the Middle East such as CAI, RUH, AMM & IKA. All these routes have the perfect market in the A 332 size category i.e. 2 class configured 230-240 seater aircraft.

Good point mate, nut i think they are looking first to replace their ageing A300-600s.

Karan
 
glacote
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:15 pm

The one number which I find eye-catching is the 79 millions USD for 6 aircrafts. I thought the deposit was a mere $500,000 per aircraft - according to some very impartial posters on this forum.

Or maybe these people are not that credible after all?

[Edited 2007-01-26 07:16:05]
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus. That has got to hurt A350 sales. Why would anyone fork over a lot of money for a next-gen aircraft, regardless of its efficiencies, when a current-gen, which is already pretty efficient, can be had for so cheap?

Well, it is said that Lufthansa pays about 120 Million USD for their new B747-800. Talk about a lack of pricing power for Boeing...  Wink

Seriously, it clearly shows that the "Listprices" are basically fantasy prices without any connection to the real world. So 1/3 off seems to be a fair assumption minimum - and the said 19.64 Million USD per A319 for Easyjet seem to be credible as well.
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EvilForce
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 21):
Airbus made a loss last year. Normally that would have some impact on deep discounts for a high-demand product that has no real competition.


Airbus' loss last year had nothing to do with A330 production. It had everything to do with writing down all the A380 problems and compensation claims. Had it not been for the stellar A330 helping cover the money losing A380 losses would have been much worse.
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trevd
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.

Probably without engines.

Hardly. Not only is that $75m including engines, if Pegasus did their homework right, it also is in escalted delivery year dollars, i.e. the final price when they actually take delivery.

If TG is actually paying anything near $90m for A332's, someone is taking $15m out of the pot somewhere along the road and putting it in a swiss bank vault !!
 
astuteman
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:49 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 21):
Airbus made a loss last year. Normally that would have some impact on deep discounts for a high-demand product that has no real competition.

As Evilforce pointed out, Airbus expected to make E2.8Bn operating profit in the year, pre-exceptional costs, on E28Bn turnover.

It is this number before exceptional costs, that indicates the underlying health of the trading being done, and thus likely impact on discounting. Whilst Airbus's underlying margin stays in the 10% region, there's still hope.
We should wait and see what the year-end accounts show, when they're published.

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EvilForce
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting TrevD (Reply 35):
Hardly. Not only is that $75m including engines, if Pegasus did their homework right, it also is in escalted delivery year dollars, i.e. the final price when they actually take delivery.

If TG is actually paying anything near $90m for A332's, someone is taking $15m out of the pot somewhere along the road and putting it in a swiss bank vault !!

You forgot the full tank of gas.  Wink
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zeke
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Seriously, aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.

As it does to me, as airlines in the region are picking up new 777s for 100m.
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Australia1
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
The 253- to 335-seat A330

U can get a lot more 335 seats in a 332 & probably more still in a 333.

TS has something like 363 in their 332's in 2 class config.

go to:-


http://www.airtransat.ca/en/7_3_2.asp
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Sumanaseni should fight harder. Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.

A freighter should be cheaper than a passenger plane; freight doesn't need seats, galleys, lavatories, IFE, interior decor, windows, etc.; all of which do not come for free. $15 mil does not sound like an unreasonable price difference.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 33):
Seriously, it clearly shows that the "Listprices" are basically fantasy prices without any connection to the real world. So 1/3 off seems to be a fair assumption minimum - and the said 19.64 Million USD per A319 for Easyjet seem to be credible as well.

The list prices are just fodder for us A-netters to argue about. Obviously actual prices are closely guarded secrets; and are not set in concrete. Both Airbus & Boeing know what it costs them to build a plane, and what they can afford to sell them for. The results will be apparant in each company's balance sheets.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
RedChili
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.

Actually, Pegasus has not ordered any A332F's at all. They ordered the passenger version. See the Airbus press release on http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eases_items/01_04_07_Pegausus.html

Quoting TrevD (Reply 35):
Hardly. Not only is that $75m including engines, if Pegasus did their homework right, it also is in escalted delivery year dollars, i.e. the final price when they actually take delivery.

Since Pegasus has not ordered the A332F, it is impossible that they got the airplane which they did not order for 75 million, neither with or without engines.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 20):
I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe

Please, no! TG is alredy flying long haul on the B744, A346, A345, B772ER, and soon the A380. They don't need another long haul airplane in their fleet.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 40):
A freighter should be cheaper than a passenger plane

If you look at the official Boeing list prices, freighters are sometimes more expensive than passenger airplanes:
747-400/ -400ER: 216.0 - 247.5
747-400/ -400ER Freighter: 219.5 - 247.0

747-8: 272.5 - 282.5
747-8 Freighter: 279.5 - 283.5

767-300ER: 133.0 - 149.0
767-300 Freighter: 143.0 - 155.0

777-200LR: 219.0 - 243.0
777 Freighter: 232.5 - 240.0
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
US$97 million would be lost if TG cancels. Makes me wonder how much (FX) has lost by cancelling 10 of them.

Depends on what FX's contract was compared to TG's. I don't believe TG had any outstanding Airbus orders they wished to cancel and apply towards an A388 order so they may have not been able to get as good terms from Airbus. FX, on the other hand, had six A306Fs still on order and may be a likely A332F customer, so their exposure may not have been so bad.

On the other hand, if FX was willing to throw tens of millions out the door because they needed planes so bad that they'd lose hundreds of millions (or even billions) waiting for the A388Fs, one wonders how hard EK (which is also losing hundreds of millions if not billions waiting for their A388s) is going to rake Airbus over the coals and lends at least some credence to the "one more delay and they're ordering the 748I" rumors.

Quoting Glacote (Reply 32):
The one number which I find eye-catching is the 79 millions USD for 6 aircrafts. I thought the deposit was a mere $500,000 per aircraft - according to some very impartial posters on this forum.

To listen to Boeing's PR, they want one-third down at order signing, though I imagine the reality is they want one-third down by the time they start construction. So an initial $13 million "signing deposit" per plane is probably about right. I have no clue what TG's pricing was (they may have traded no cancellation clause for a lower price or they felt they had to have A388s for competition and prestige reasons so they didn't haggle) so it's anywhere from about 7.5% (based on a $170 million price) to 6% (based on a $280 million price).

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 33):
Well, it is said that Lufthansa pays about 120 Million USD for their new B747-800. Talk about a lack of pricing power for Boeing...  wink 

That would have been a 65% discount off list. If Boeing is selling them that cheap, then BA and CX are definitely buying the 748I and even UA and NW will pick some up. Heck, you can pretty much be sure that the A388 will only sell to it's existing customers at that point and if EK has any kind of cancellation clause with Airbus on the A388, we can imagine $120 million per frame is going to be the maximum EK will be paying for any A388 that they can cancel.

So if I was an Airbus aficionado, I'd take no comfort whatsoever if Boeing is getting that little for a 747-8I.  worried 

Aviation valuation firms (including but not limited to Avitas) have pegged the sale price at around $167 million per frame for the LH deal, which is 40% off list and in-line with "industry norms" in such a hot market.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 38):
As it does to me, as airlines in the region are picking up new 777s for 100m.



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 40):
A freighter should be cheaper than a passenger plane; freight doesn't need seats, galleys, lavatories, IFE, interior decor, windows, etc.; all of which do not come for free. $15 mil does not sound like an unreasonable price difference.

It should be, but then a lot of things like IFE, seating, and such are bought separately and delivered to Airbus and Boeing for installation. I'm not familiar with actually buying a commercial airliner (though some forum members are and I'd love their input on this), so if those items are not included in the list price, it may explain why freighters are offered at close to the same list price as the passenger model.
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 41):
If you look at the official Boeing list prices, freighters are sometimes more expensive than passenger airplanes:

Any explanation why? Granted, the freighter has structural reinforcements that add cost, but more than what a passenger interior costs? Or is it another case of list prices being just numbers picked off a dartboard?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 41):
Actually, Pegasus has not ordered any A332F's at all. They ordered the passenger version.

My mistake. It was the Intrepid A330F 20-frame non-binding LoU that is said to have gone out at $75 million a frame. Airbus has had a good month in orders, so I'm mixing them up.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 41):
If you look at the official Boeing list prices, freighters are sometimes more expensive than passenger airplanes...

Which makes me think that the interior fittings airlines buy separately are not included in the list price for the passenger model and the freighter model includes the extra cost of strengthening the frame and such.
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:24 pm

Boeing may only be getting a $120 million for the 748, but did the cargo airlines get a sweet a deal as Lufthansa ? No, would be my inital thought. Boeing needed a blue chip airline for the 748 passenger and LH was it. Boeing has probably sold enough cargo 748's to pay for mauch of the development cost, so giving Lufthansa and the second customer a sweet deal probably doesn't have to accoun tfor amortization of the R&D costs. BA better sign up soon.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 45):
Boeing has probably sold enough cargo 748's to pay for much of the development cost, so giving Lufthansa and the second customer a sweet deal probably doesn't have to account for amortization of the R&D costs.

The trick is, if LH indeed received 65% discounts, that sets a new "opening price" for passenger and cargo airlines that enter into negotiations with Boeing on the purchase of 747s.

And while cargo customers don't have an Airbus alternative in the heavy-lift category (as an A388F's economics appear to be unfavorable in that role), as passenger 744s are retired, more and more 744BCF's become available and those will put their own pricing pressure on Boeing, so Boeing can't exactly sell 748F's for list to cover the losses (or minimal profits) from selling 748I's at 65% off.
 
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 33):
Well, it is said that Lufthansa pays about 120 Million USD for their new B747-800. Talk about a lack of pricing power for Boeing...

A launch customer usually gets a pretty hefty discount, above and beyond typical discounts. But, of course, a launch customer is assuming a lot more risk than a customer that orders a mature product.

But I'll concede: After going an entire year without a single passenger version on order, Boeing was probably quite anxious to button-up an Intercontinental order from such a blue-chip customer.

***************

Quoting RedChili (Reply 41):
If you look at the official Boeing list prices, freighters are sometimes more expensive than passenger airplanes:



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 43):
Any explanation why? Granted, the freighter has structural reinforcements that add cost, but more than what a passenger interior costs? Or is it another case of list prices being just numbers picked off a dartboard?

I think freighter list prices reflect the pricing power of freighters in general and not the fact that they cost more to build. Freighter's -- for both manufacturers -- tend to be cash cows.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
osiris30
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
To listen to Boeing's PR, they want one-third down at order signing, though I imagine the reality is they want one-third down by the time they start construction. So an initial $13 million "signing deposit" per plane is probably about right. I have no clue what TG's pricing was (they may have traded no cancellation clause for a lower price or they felt they had to have A388s for competition and prestige reasons so they didn't haggle) so it's anywhere from about 7.5% (based on a $170 million price) to 6% (based on a $280 million price).

Boeing used to have a fantastic breakdown... It was basically a million or two due at start of negotiations (that was later applied at signing)... With more due through-out the rest of the construction process. I believe the 1/3rd (ish) you are talking about was due at production start. Can't find it on their site now (that was their old site it was on)..

[Edited 2007-01-26 16:34:53]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
khobar
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RE: Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 34):
Airbus' loss last year had nothing to do with A330 production. It had everything to do with writing down all the A380 problems and compensation claims. Had it not been for the stellar A330 helping cover the money losing A380 losses would have been much worse.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 36):
It is this number before exceptional costs, that indicates the underlying health of the trading being done, and thus likely impact on discounting. Whilst Airbus's underlying margin stays in the 10% region, there's still hope.

I did not know the A330 was manufactured by a different Airbus than the A380.

 Wink