bluewhale18210
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2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:06 pm

I took a flight from LAX to SEA today on AS, AS115, leaving LAX at 1235.
Apparently the pilot did not waste any time on the ground...
We were #2 on arrival holding on Taxiway D for an arriving AA 757, then the plane in front of us, a NW 319 turned on to 24L and started its takeoff roll.
I was just thinking that since "Position and Hold" is no longer OK by the FAA, we'll have to hold on the inlet until the 319 clears the airfield, when our 737
taxied onto 24L and...
...started our takeoff roll.
The 319 was barely 1,500 ft away when we started onto the Runway, and must be barely off the ground when we started rolling...
Is this legal? I thought a departing aircraft must be out a certain distance before the clearance of the next is given...is it somehow changed?

[Edited 2007-01-26 06:07:22]
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
flyf15
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:11 pm

Position and hold is still allowed. I do it daily. Often we're told to position and hold in the same transmission where the previous aircraft is cleared for takeoff. Depending on the aircraft, initial headings, etc, you can be cleared for takeoff very shortly after the previous departure.
 
Charliejag1
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:11 pm

I was under the impression that two aircraft could not be on the runway at the same time. I am not aware of any certain distance that one plane has to be from the runway. The more that I think about it, I think it might be ok for 2 departing aircraft if one is not moving. For instance, a GV is holding at the end of the runway and a Skyhawk takes the second intersection and departs. Lets say the jet is waiting for IFR clearance or something. I say this because I seem to recall being the pilot of the Cessna in this situation.
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:32 pm

I didn't check my watch, but I believe from the time the 319 started rolling to the time our 737 was wheels-up it was less than 1 minute.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
NWA ARJ
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:36 pm

3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

a. The intent of TIPH is to position aircraft for an imminent departure. Authorize an

aircraft to taxi into position and hold, except as restricted in subparagraph g, when takeoff

clearance cannot be issued because of traffic. Issue traffic information to any aircraft so

authorized . Traffic information may be omitted when traffic is another aircraft which has landed on or is taking off the same runway and is clearly visible to the holding aircraft. Do not use conditional phrases such as “behind landing traffic” or “after the departing aircraft.”

b. USN NOT APPLICABLE. First state the runway number followed by the taxi into position clearance when more than one runway is active.

PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number), POSITION AND HOLD.

Or, when only one runway is active :

POSITION AND HOLD.

c. Do not issue a clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position, taxiing into position or has been cleared to taxi into position and hold until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. Do not clear an aircraft to TIPH if an aircraft has been cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway.



PHRASEOLOGY –

“RUNWAY (number), CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.” or, (when only

one runway is active): “CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.”



EXAMPLE –

“American 528, runway two three, continue, traffic holding in position.” or, (when only one runway is active): “American 528, continue, traffic holding in position.”



(1) Landing clearance need not be withheld if the safety logic system is operating in the full core alert runway configuration.



(2) Facilities without the safety logic system and facilities with the safety logic system in

limited configuration must withhold landing clearance until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll.



REFERENCE:

FAAO 7110.65, Landing Clearance, Para 3-10- 5.



d. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into position and hold, inform it of the closest traffic requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach to the same runway.

EXAMPLE-
"United Five, runway one eight, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final."

Or, when only one runway is active:

"United Five, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final."

e. USAF. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into takeoff position to hold, inform it of the closest traffic within 6 miles on final approach to the same runway. If the approaching aircraft is on a different frequency, inform it of the aircraft taxiing into position.

f. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold when the departure point is not visible from the tower, unless the aircraft's position can be verified by ASDE or the runway is used for departures only.

g. An aircraft may be authorized to taxi into position and hold at an intersection between sunset and sunrise. The procedure must be approved by the appropriate Director, Terminal Operations (service area office), and by the Director, Terminal Safety and Operations Support, and must be contained in a facility directive. The following conditions must apply:



(1) The runway must be used as a departure-only runway.



(2) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to taxi into position and hold on the same runway.



(3) Document on FAA Form 7230-4, Daily Record of Facility Operation, the following:

“TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) IN EFFECT” when using runway as a

departure-only runway. “TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) SUSPENDED” when runway is not used as a departure-only runway.



h. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold at any time when the intersection is not visible from the tower.



i . Do not authorize aircraft to simultaneously taxi into position and hold on the same runway, between sunrise and sunset, unless the local assist/local monitor position is staffed.

j. USN. Do not authorize aircraft to taxi into takeoff position to hold simultaneously on intersecting runways.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CONTINUE HOLDING ,

or

TAXI OFF THE RUNWAY.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Altitude Restricted Low Approach, Para 3-10-10.

k. When aircraft are authorized to taxi into position and hold on runways that intersect, traffic must be exchanged between that aircraft and the aircraft that is authorized to position and hold, depart, or arrive to the intersecting runway(s).



EXAMPLE –

“United Five, runway four, position and hold, traffic holding runway three-one.”

“Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic holding runway four.”



or , when issuing traffic information to an arrival aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on

runway(s) that intersect(s):



“Delta One, runway four, position and hold, traffic landing runway three-one.”

“United Five, runway three-one, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position runway four. ”.



or , when issuing traffic information to a departing aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on runway(s) that intersect(s):



“Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic departing runway four.”

“United Five, runway four, cleared for takeoff, traffic holding runway three-one.”

And as for the A319 being 1500 feet down the runway, two planes of that class (III) need to have 6000 feet of runway separation and be airborne using sutiable landmarks, or have crossed the departure threshold.
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
mpdpilot
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:55 pm

Taxing into position and holding is allowed when the airport gains special permission from the FAA.

There can be two aircraft on the runway at the sametime as long as the aircraft are, in this case, 6000' apart. I have heard of there being some fudging of that, but if the aircraf that just landed is vacating the runway the tower can clear another aircraft for departure, it is called implied separation, or something like that. The example I think explains it best is at LGA they can clear two aircraft for departure on the two runways at almost the sametime because it is assumed that the first aircraft will cross the intersecting runway and remain clear of the aircraft departing on the other runway.

I asked a very similar question to a phoenix tracon controller I think I am remembering this correctly.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:57 pm

I see this happen all the time.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 5):
There can be two aircraft on the runway at the sametime as long as the aircraft are, in this case, 6000' apart.

Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:12 pm

If you listen to SNA Tower/SOCAL Approach on www.liveatc.net, you will hear a lot of position and hold. That's one of my favorite airports to monitor.
I love ASO!
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 7):
Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.

Again, working at an airport I see this happen daily. Also, I have been on multiple flights, departing various airports, where this happened as well. It is not unusual, and since it happens so often and at many airports, I'd say this procedure doesn't violate any rules/regulations.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 7):
Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.

you must explain. which markers are you talking about, the ones on the ground or the black ones on the side of the runway. if it is the side of the runway ones I would be surprized if they were even on the ground being that it is the 1000' down the runway. if you mean the ones one the runway then there was only 3000' remaining on the runway which is definately 6000' down the runway and I am amazed that you could still see the airplane.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:32 pm

OK, here is the situation.
I know where the black marker with number 1 on it is. It was marking the 1000ft remaining for RWY 6R, right? So on the marker it makes it 1000ft from starting of RWY 24L. What I meant to say is that the 319 ahead of us merely started its takeoff roll and went about 1,000 to 1,500 ft before my plane turned onto the same runway and started our own takeoff roll. By my estimate (from watching numerous A320/737 takeoffs, not very scientific, I know) when my 737's engine started to turn up the 319 is probably barely left the ground. In any case it was the least amount of ground separation I have ever witnessed either on the ramp or in a plane.

Here's a step by step events, as clear as I could make it.
-The AA757 landed and (persumably) cleared RWY 24L
-NW 319 turned onto 24L and immediately started its takeoff roll
-The sametime 319 left its hold position on TWY D my AS737 followed.
-NW 319 went about 1,500ft on its takeoff roll when my 737 turned onto 24L also.
-Immediately after my 737 lines up the engine powered up and we were in the takeoff roll.

The whole process, from the time 319 turned onto the runway to my 737 was airborne, is about a minute.

Hope it clears up the picture...
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
S12PPL
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:32 pm

It's very very normal....


I've gone through PHX before connecting other places. During the peak hours of the day there, this stuff is done. I was flying PHX-ONT, and they were rolling planes along. One plane would get into possition and hold. It's start it's roll, and the next plane would get into possition. By the time we got up to #1, the plane in front of us was just lifting off as we began our roll. Very normal. Not sure where you heard it was illegal....  Confused
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LTU932
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:35 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 8):
If you listen to SNA Tower/SOCAL Approach on www.liveatc.net, you will hear a lot of position and hold.

Same in JFK. Everytime I listen to JFK, I hear lots of times aeroplanes being ordered to position and hold.
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:40 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 9):
Again, working at an airport I see this happen daily. Also, I have been on multiple flights, departing various airports, where this happened as well. It is not unusual, and since it happens so often and at many airports, I'd say this procedure doesn't violate any rules/regulations.

Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?
Like:
"NW319, you are cleared for takeoff."
"Cleared for takeoff, NW319." (Rolls)
"AS737, taxi into position and hold"
"Position and hold, AS737" (Taxis and holds on RWY)
"NW319, climb and maintain 5,000. Contact SoCal departure 124.50. Goodday"
"124.50, NW319"
"AS737, cleared for takeoff."
"Cleared for takeoff, AS737"

Or did I miss something?
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 12):
Not sure where you heard it was illegal....

Nah, just thought to check with experts on A.net, not being a pilot myself.
It is just I usually didn't see LAX had to shoot planes off this fast.
Thanks, your feedback had been helpful.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
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LTU932
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

Surely. Position and hold means that an aircraft can enter the runway to line up and wait (hence why in other countries, this instruction is known as line up and wait   ) for takeoff clearance. Once the departing aircraft has been handed over to Departure and certain other requirements, such as vertical and horizontal separation are met, the aircraft will be cleared for takeoff. That's at least how I see it at SJO when watching departures and listening to Coco Tower.

EDIT to add: In SJO, I also heard a DL 757 pilot requesting position and hold once, instead of going for a "rolling" departure without stopping. I guess they needed to doublecheck the checklist and other things before finally rolling.

[Edited 2007-01-26 07:53:54]
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:01 pm



One thing I think may be being overlooked here is that it's hard to judge the distance of an aircraft rolling down 24L when one is still holding at the end. You have depth-of-field considerations, plus the aircraft rolling is continuously accelerating with a Vr of 125-135 kts or so, and it will accelerate even further once it gets airborne. LAX 24L is over 10,000 feet long, so one only has to get about halfway down the runway before one has 1 mile of separation.

[Edited 2007-01-26 08:10:03]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
RyDawg82
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:08 pm

You are confusing the rules...

Assuming that the leading aircraft is not a B757 or Heavy jet, the second aircraft my be told to taxi into position. The 6000 foot rule is a separation rule for two aircraft that have been cleared for takeoff.

So in your case, the NW A319 was cleared for takeoff. The visual rule states that as soon as that NW A319 is 6000 feet down the runway **AND** Airborne, the second aircraft (Alaska 737) may be cleared for takeoff. There are some additional requirements that will be fulfilled after departure to increase the separation to 3 miles initially, and then 5 miles in the enroute environment. But I again stress, in your example...As soon as that NWA A319 was Cleared, the ASA 737 could be told Position and Hold (and I would also state, Caution Jetblast).

I hope this clears things up about the 6000 foot rule...
Ryan
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
echster
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

Speaking as a US ATCer, most times, yes, if you work at an aiport not as busy as an LAX. However, it is not a requirement. If you're not using wake turbulence separation, for aircraft departing the same runway, we ATCers only need to ensure an aircraft does not begin takeoff roll until the other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. However, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft:

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.
 
echster
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 5):
....but if the aircraft that just landed is vacating the runway the tower can clear another aircraft for departure, it is called implied separation, or something like that.

One of my favorite tools when working in the tower.....anticipated separation.

From the FAAO 7110.65:

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

For takeoff clearance, yes. For position and hold, no. I never said being cleared for takeoff before a preceding aircraft is airborne is common. I was talking about entering the runway to get into position and hold until further clearance as soon as the preceding aircraft begins the takeoff roll. Often times aircraft will follow another (that has immediately started a takeoff roll) onto a runway as if it was just following along in the taxi sequence.

[Edited 2007-01-26 10:05:59]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ag92
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:13 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Unmuth-AirTeamImages VAP



There is a photo with two aircraft on the same runway

Regards
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 22):


There is a photo with two aircraft on the same runway

Here is a photo of 39 planes on the same runway.  Smile



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Halifax International Airport



A plane can't land on the same runway that another is currently taking off from. The take off plane must be wheels off the runway before the landing plane is wheels on.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
NWA ARJ
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 18):
and I would also state, Caution Jetblast

I don't think that statement is in the 7110.65 which is the bible for us Air Traffic Controllers.
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 23):
A plane can't land on the same runway that another is currently taking off from. The take off plane must be wheels off the runway before the landing plane is wheels on.

Nope....rule is departure has departed (wheels off) AND crossed the runway end or comply with the distances listed in the handbook 3,000', 4,500' or 6,000' depending on the aircraft category, all before the arriving aircraft crosses the landing threshold, not wheels on. FAAO 7110.65, 3-10-3, same runway separation.

Quoting NWA ARJ (Reply 24):
I don't think that statement is in the 7110.65 which is the bible for us Air Traffic Controllers.

No but it should be put in the bible as well as many others....taxi fast I'll clear ya later!!!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
2H4
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:21 pm




Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 23):

A plane can't land on the same runway that another is currently taking off from. The take off plane must be wheels off the runway before the landing plane is wheels on.

As is often the case in aviation, there are exceptions. I, for example, have touched down on the same runway at the same time as another aircraft, he at one end and I at the other. I was instructed to depart the runway off into the grass at my earliest convenience. As a large, four-engine aircraft was breathing down my neck behind me at the time, I expedited, ignoring taxiways and simply cutting across the grass to parking. During this approach/landing, despite being IFR in heavy traffic, I never uttered a word to the tower controller.

Also, I've been one of three aircraft departing the same runway at the same time. One was a King-Air, and the other a single-engine Cessna. We were cleared to go about 5-10 seconds apart, and were all rolling down the runway at the same time. After rotation, we simply turned on course and proceeded on diverging flight paths.

All of this was perfectly legal, and I'm sure someone can guess where it took place....


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
All of this was perfectly legal, and I'm sure someone can guess where it took place....

Lets see....oh I know...had to be ADW, oh no, ahhh HOU, could have been, ahh maybe not, oh how about RSW with their runway being resurfaced and landing on taxiways, ahhhhhh EWR, that has to be it just north of Runway 29 is a nice taxiway I hear.

 blockhead 

Or maybe the homesteaders in that area wear alot of hats about that look like the block above!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
2H4
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:38 am




Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 27):
Or maybe the homesteaders in that area wear alot of hats about that look like the block above!

Nothing like sharing the pattern with three P-51s and a B-17...  Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 28):
Nothing like sharing the pattern with three P-51s and a B-17...

Ahhhhuh.....drivin them!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
airtran717
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 15):
experts on A.net

Too funny.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:24 am

To the original poster. I believe Im starting to understand the post. Granted alot of people are still caught up on the TIPH issue earlier. I believe what your describing is diverging separation. LAX and PHX are two facilities that can be caught using this heavily. They sometimes have an aircraft maintain visual separation of the preceding aircraft and in most cases start a turn opposite from the aircraft ahead. It basically goes hand in hand with (SRS) Same Runway Separation or as someone else said (my favorite) Anticipated Separation. This can be seen at PHL on East Operation off of 9L.
 
N243NW
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
All of this was perfectly legal, and I'm sure someone can guess where it took place....

Sounds like OSH during AirVenture!  Smile

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 25):
rule is departure has departed (wheels off) AND crossed the runway end or comply with the distances listed in the handbook 3,000', 4,500' or 6,000' depending on the aircraft category, all before the arriving aircraft crosses the landing threshold, not wheels on. FAAO 7110.65, 3-10-3, same runway separation.

http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_B...e_Midwest_Aviation_Video-5614.html

How's this for separation? The YX pilot really planted those mains onto the runway too! If I'm not mistaken, you can even hear another aircraft spooling up to position and hold as the 717 rolls out at the end of the video. One of my favorites.

-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
N908AW
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:35 am

Heck, last time I flew outta MSP there was three of us on the runway..us position and hold full length, a learjet position and hold at taxiway W3, and a FedEx A300 rolling out for landing at the end.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
ckfred
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:37 am

I was on an AA 757 waiting in line to takeoff from 32L at ORD last May. I was watching the aircraft ahead of us and noticed that as soon as a departing aircraft was about 1000 feet down from the departure point, T8, the next aircraft started to taxi onto the runway.

As soon as the departing aircraft was wheels up, the next aircraft started rolling. This seemed to be the norm, until it was our turn. We waited to taxi onto the runway until the prior aircraft was wheels up, but then we wound up starting the takeoff roll as the plane was lining up with the centerline.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 22):

Looks like a taxiway to me.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 32):
How's this for separation?

Perfect or even better than perfect......looks like IAH of old!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
mcdu
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

No controllers don't have to wait until the aircraft is airborne. The ORD controllers roll departures after the t/o aircraft is partially down the runway. Taxi into position and hold procedures are only suspended when the airport is using combined ground and tower frequencies. The staff must have separate ground and tower controller to use TIPAH.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 37):
No controllers don't have to wait until the aircraft is airborne. The ORD controllers roll departures after the t/o aircraft is partially down the runway

Please don't be telling them incorrect info......the only way that is done is when you are using the before mentioned in reply 31

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 31):
Anticipated Separation.

and then it requires the preceeding aircraft to be airborne and crossed the runway end or turning to avert any conflict prior to the next starting take-off roll, or use the aircraft category distances again. These days you don't follow the rules at most places you get to visit the chapel or more.  banghead 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 25):
Nope....rule is departure has departed (wheels off) AND crossed the runway end or comply with the distances listed in the handbook 3,000', 4,500' or 6,000' depending on the aircraft category, all before the arriving aircraft crosses the landing threshold, not wheels on. FAAO 7110.65, 3-10-3, same runway separation.

I am not totally sure of the rules on this but I know at IWA where we have intersection departures mid-runway, with a 10000' runway, this has been fudged. we will be cleared to land and given "caution aircraft departing prior to our arrival" and an aircraft cleared to take-off at the intersection.

I would also like to point out that airborne is defined as when the nose wheel leaves the ground, not all of the wheels. So once the first plane rotates then the next plane can takeoff. So in theory and at LAX and PHX more like practice but there can be two airplanes that are still on the runway and both cleared for takeoff as long as the first one is 6000' down the runway and they have rotated then all is ok.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
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LTU932
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 23):
Here is a photo of 39 planes on the same runway.

Well, that was an extreme exception, given that those planes had to divert somewhere, in this case to YHZ, when US airspace was shut down after the 9/11 attacks. They did keep at least one runway cleared so that others which needed to divert because of the shutdown can land.
 
warreng24
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:41 am

This happens ALL the time on PHX. If you sit at the far end of Terminal 2 concourse (near Gate 13); watch the action on 7L.

You will usually see a line of A/C waiting departure on 7L, and just before one rotates (usually just before Terminal 2), the one behind is already rolling.

The precedent is that PHX, can have every other departure turn south which leaves adequate spacing. 7R is usually used for landings when 7L is being used for departures.
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Thread starter):
We were #2 on arrival holding on Taxiway D for an arriving AA 757

How were you number #2 on arrival, if you were departing? I assume you mean, #2 for departure...

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Thread starter):
Is this legal?

Yes, as long as the second departing aircraft acknowledges the previous aircraft and visual separation is maintained. Now, if the previously departed aircraft was a heavy, then there would have been a little more ATC separation between the two planes.
 
timz
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:53 am

This all happened on 25 January? Can anyone find them on http://www4.passur.com/lax.html ? I can't.

(I think http://www.flightaware.com says AS 115 "left" LAX at 1246 on 25 January-- that means wheels up?)
 
RyDawg82
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting NWA ARJ (Reply 24):
Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 18):and I would also state, Caution Jetblast
I don't think that statement is in the 7110.65 which is the bible for us Air Traffic Controllers.

Trust me, I am pretty familiar with the point-65.
I'd like refer you to the "controllers bible" to 2-1-20:

Quote:
b. Issue cautionary information to any aircraft if in your opinion, wake turbulence may have an adverse effect on it. When traffic is known to be a heavy aircraft, include the word heavy in the description.

NOTE-
Wake turbulence may be encountered by aircraft in flight as well as when operating on the airport movement area. Because wake turbulence is unpredictable, the controller is not responsible for anticipating its existence or effect. Although not mandatory during ground operations, controllers may use the words jet blast, propwash, or rotorwash, in lieu of wake turbulence, when issuing a caution advisory.

Sure, generally wake turbulence is associated mainly with B757/Heavy -- However, notice the words propwash, jet blast, or rotorwash being acceptable. It all comes down to using good judgement - and while the ASA 737 surly saw the NWA A319 and anticipated the jet blast, it's good to cover your butt.

Quoting Timz (Reply 43):
This all happened on 25 January? Can anyone find them on http://www4.passur.com/lax.html ? I can't.

(I think http://www.flightaware.com says AS 115 "left" LAX at 1246 on 25 January-- that means wheels up?)

Have a look at:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA115 and
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA334

I think these are the birds in question for Jan 25. Showing times 1 minute apart. I stress that flightaware is for reference only, I am just trying to potentially identify the aircraft in question.

Ryan

[Edited 2007-01-26 21:11:24]
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 39):
I am not totally sure of the rules

Enough said....search 7110.65 and look at chapter 3.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 39):
I would also like to point out that airborne is defined as when the nose wheel leaves the ground

I'd love to see that definition.

My only point with the .65 stuff is that is what the book calls for, does it always happen that way, I'd be a fool to say yes, but since I've had times when I've see from the tower when things didn't always work out that way.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
phelpsie87
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 39):
I would also like to point out that airborne is defined as when the nose wheel leaves the ground, not all of the wheels. So once the first plane rotates then the next plane can takeoff. So in theory and at LAX and PHX more like practice but there can be two airplanes that are still on the runway and both cleared for takeoff as long as the first one is 6000' down the runway and they have rotated then all is ok.

Really? Interesting definition. BTW, 6000' is not the only separation:

3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin takeoff roll until:

a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. (See FIG 3-9-1.) If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See FIG 3-9-2.)

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.


As stated in an above post:

3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

a. The intent of TIPH is to position aircraft for an imminent departure. Authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold, except as restricted in subpara f, when takeoff clearance cannot be issued because of traffic. Issue traffic information to any aircraft so authorized. Traffic information may be omitted when the traffic is another aircraft which has landed on or is taking off the same runway and is clearly visible to the holding aircraft. Do not use conditional phrases such as "behind landing traffic" or "after the departing aircraft."

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Thread starter):
We were #2 on arrival holding on Taxiway D for an arriving AA 757, then the plane in front of us, a NW 319 turned on to 24L and started its takeoff roll.
I was just thinking that since "Position and Hold" is no longer OK by the FAA, we'll have to hold on the inlet until the 319 clears the airfield, when our 737
taxied onto 24L and...
...started our takeoff roll.
The 319 was barely 1,500 ft away when we started onto the Runway, and must be barely off the ground when we started rolling...
Is this legal? I thought a departing aircraft must be out a certain distance before the clearance of the next is given...is it somehow changed?

Lets try to make this simple. As long as your aircraft was NOT starting your takeoff roll when the leading aircraft was still on the ground, or not at the separation minima yet, then there is nothing wrong. One of the other has to be established before an aircraft touches down or starts its roll. You can go into position and hold as the leading aircraft is just rolling. Or, with an arrival example, an aircraft can be told to TIPH as long as the landing aircraft has passed the intersection the departure is at. Clear as mud?
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:03 am

LAS does it all the time
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
mpdpilot
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RE: 2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 45):
Enough said....search 7110.65 and look at chapter 3.

I am just telling you what happens. I fly there multiple times a week and it is not uncommon. No need to get touchy.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 45):
I'd love to see that definition.

My only point with the .65 stuff is that is what the book calls for, does it always happen that way, I'd be a fool to say yes, but since I've had times when I've see from the tower when things didn't always work out that way

Well this is what I was told by one of the former PHX Tower Chiefs and a Current PHX controller. Airborne is when the aircraft rotates, not necessarily when all of the wheels leave the ground.

7110.65 what? where am I searching for this, perhapps you could quote the text.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
timz
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Is This Legal?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 12):
It's very very normal....



Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 41):
This happens ALL the time on PHX.



Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 47):
LAS does it all the time

Funny thing about airliners.net (and discussion boards in general, maybe)-- whenever anybody asks whether so-and-so is allowed, or unusual, somebody always has to say "naw, happens all the time".

But if AS 115 really did have its wheels in the wells less than sixty seconds after the A319 ahead started its takeoff roll, down the same runway-- that is at least moderately unusual. Too bad there's no way to confirm it.