User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:59 pm

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/16533365.htm

All relevant comments welcome.  yes 
 
afrikaskyes
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:56 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:02 pm

Does this so called "bill of rights" pertain to the guy who purchased a $59 roundtrip ticket to Tampa, who checks his curbisde baggage 32 minutes before departure, who arrives into Tampa without his baggage because of the TSA bag screening que, and who demands a free roundtrip ticket because his bag is delayed?

Just curious
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:00 pm

Quote:
Establishing procedures for airlines to return passengers to a terminal gate after three hours on the tarmac.

This is actually a good idea... were it always possible. Gates aren't always available, so how would you do this in that case? The airlines don't always have control of what gates are avialable. And while I say it's a good idea, other then the discomfort of being stuck there, what exactly is the problem? And why THREE hours? Why not two? Or four?

Quote:
Requiring airlines to respond to complaints within 24 hours and resolve them within two weeks.

You call my airline up they'll "respond" almost immediatly. And usually with a resolution. But to require them to "resolve"? So ever single passenger needs to be happy? A resolution means both parties are satisfied that the resolution is acceptable. I've got news for the world. A lot of pissed off airline passengers will NEVER feel some issues have been "resolved".

Quote:
Forcing airlines to publish a list of chronically delayed flights online.

YEAH! I just have to be told that if I fly out of EWR that 78% of the flights there leave at least a half hour late. If you don't already know there's delays, well, you're not gonna look for this information anyway.

Quote:
Compensation for bumped passengers or passengers whose flights are delayed by more than 12 hours at 150 percent of the ticket price.

Why? You've agreed to the Contract of Carrige that specifies compensation. There are also some Federal laws that address this as well. Don't like it? DON'T FLY! And why 12 hours? And what about weather delays? Traffic delays? Delays initiated by weather or traffic that become delayed further due to crew, curfew, etc.?

Quote:
Compensation for passengers whose baggage is lost or mishandled.

That's already done, and also part of the Contract of Carrige.

Quote:
Creation of a Passenger Review Committee made up of nonairline consumers to review and investigate complaints.

Would this group be made up of the same whiney people from SNA that get upset that their flight is delayed by fog, then cancelled because of curfew? The police in many municipalities do this, and there's always complaints about the process.

This all comes down to customer service. If you don't like it, fly someone else. When your second airline choice does the same thing, instead of realising that things actually do just happen, go to another airline. And another. When you run out of airlines, go to Amtrack, because they've got such a better track record. When they piss you off, drive. When the cost of driving gets to high, WALK!

WAAAHHH!!!!

/rant

Sorry.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:46 pm

Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

No it's not. Sorry, but even well-organized attempts were shot down in Congress. They definitely won't go anywhere based on some woman with a blog.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
This is actually a good idea... were it always possible. Gates aren't always available, so how would you do this in that case? The airlines don't always have control of what gates are avialable. And while I say it's a good idea, other then the discomfort of being stuck there, what exactly is the problem? And why THREE hours? Why not two? Or four?

Gates are almost always available. When I used to fly in Switzerland it was the airport authority who controlled the gates.

How do you think it feels when our gate was occupied in CHS a year or so ago and we were late and every single other gate was open. But I had to tell the passengers that they could not get off the plane because there are no gates available. The passengers are pretty dumb, but even they could see that there were a dozen open gates and they were stuck on our plane until the other plane pushed. What a joke!!!

Either open up gate space for all airplanes as is done at most European airports or use remote parking stands and bus the passengers. There is truly almost NEVER an excuse for leaving passengers on an airplane on the ground for hours.
smrtrthnu
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:16 pm

The problem is that the two sides are on the opposite extreme for non-elite passengers. On the one side are the airlines who in many "delay" cases lie, cheat, and steal whatever they feel they can get away with, and the other hand is the guy in the stained t-shirt who does indeed curbside checks in 12 bags on a flight from Fresno to Fort Lauderdale 28 minutes before departure and freaks out when they didn't make the flight...The middle ground of common sense and pragmatism has been lost...
 
User avatar
flying_727
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 1999 11:59 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:42 pm

Isn't the fraction of lost baggage actually really low, like a fraction of one percent? Also, I don't believe the airlines should have to pay or get bad marks for temporarily lost or late baggage due to irregular operations during storms or other disruptions. In these cases, not even the best airlines or the best operations planners can prepare.

Flying_727
On ATA, You're On Vacation
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:46 pm

This is funny. They tried to do this in 1999. Now, 7 years later congress is now trying to pass a bill of rights. IIRC, the airlines opposed this and each carrier set up their own 'Improved Customer Services Standards'. I know that AS started that on its own.

Why do we need a bill of rights when the Contract of Carriage still exists?!

Quoting Afrikaskyes (Reply 1):
Does this so called "bill of rights" pertain to the guy who purchased a $59 roundtrip ticket to Tampa, who checks his curbisde baggage 32 minutes before departure, who arrives into Tampa without his baggage because of the TSA bag screening que, and who demands a free roundtrip ticket because his bag is delayed?

Boy, if I was still working at the AS gate in SEA, I'd be telling that dude the boarding procedure rule and go to the Customer Service Center next to gate D2. You snooze, you lose!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Not so hasty here... The airlines will soon enough figure out which members of Congress they need to buy off to keep it from happening and, voila... there will be much talk and no Passenger Bill of Rights... perhaps a few meaningless promises from the airlines to "try harder" and some high-sounding revisions to their customer service commitments that will amount to nothing more than empty rhetoric to create the illusion that "Congress and the airlines are doing something" about the deteriorating level of ailine customer service, but nothing more.
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:47 am

I for one welcome this. Having worked for the airlines and been a passenger I have seen both sides. You are pretty much at the airline's mercy when things go south. I would like to see language in the bill specifically pertaining to extended delays. No more of this spending 3 days in the airport business because we don't have any open seats. Airlines should be required to get you out within a certain window of time, after that they should be required to put you on any carrier they can find to get you out. I have had calls from many family members and friends who have gotten jerked around by the airlines. They call me because I know who to talk to to get things done. When they talk to the airlines there is no seats for three days. When I talk to them not only is there a seat but its on the next flight. Some airlines are better than others but overall they are average at best.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):

Why do we need a bill of rights when the Contract of Carriage still exists?!

Because the contract is one sided. Without warsaw convention and other "basic rights" conventions, Airlines are probably going to take your money and say screw you.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
chris133
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:41 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 9):
You are pretty much at the airline's mercy when things go south. I would like to see language in the bill specifically pertaining to extended delays. No more of this spending 3 days in the airport business because we don't have any open seats. Airlines should be required to get you out within a certain window of time, after that they should be required to put you on any carrier they can find to get you out.

Well it seams that most of the time you are victum of the system and not the airline. Do you think that airlines want to keep you stuck on a plane for long times, just to make you made and never fly them again? As was mention in a previous thread, the FAA has something to do with it. Like not being able to get out of line for departure slots with out losing your turn. ATC and airports telling airlines that they will have runways open and then they don't, or other things like that. Its any airlines best idea to get the plane back to a gate, it just all around saves money. Don't get me wrong, there are times when airlines make bad decisions (like doing a wx divert to a station that can't handle a plane of its size).
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 10):
Airlines are probably going to take your money and say screw you.

They've been doing this since 'the beginning of time' anyway. PAX just need to wake up, smell the coffee and follow the rules and they'll be fine.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
They've been doing this since 'the beginning of time' anyway. PAX just need to wake up, smell the coffee and follow the rules and they'll be fine.

Just because they have done this since the beginning of time, doesn't make it right. Sometimes pax follows the rule and they still get f in the a

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 4):
Gates are almost always available. When I used to fly in Switzerland it was the airport authority who controlled the gates.

I uderstand your example of gates being open but not available. But there are also sutuations, especially high desity but small airports, that when hit by weather will have every gate full, plus gates that have pushed and were held, or flights that landed, and there are no gates open. It happens, and SNA would be a perfect example offhand. It doesn't happen all the time, but it's going to happen, and often enough that it won't be the exception.

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 6):
Isn't the fraction of lost baggage actually really low, like a fraction of one percent?

The MBR, even when insanely high (20.0+) is mishandled bags per 1000 passengers. So yeah, it's less then 1 percent, but that also means, given a reasonable 5.0 and 150 pax a flight you're talking 1 passenger for every 4 flights is missing a bag, roughly. That number MAY include damage, not sure, but still, that's not exactly good.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 9):
No more of this spending 3 days in the airport business because we don't have any open seats. Airlines should be required to get you out within a certain window of time, after that they should be required to put you on any carrier they can find to get you out.

You're saying that airlines should be prohibited from overselling then. And what about weather? Furthermore, there are already laws in place in the US about this. We had a LAS-JFK flight depart right before a Nor'Easter hit the northeast US. It did a turnback to LAS over KANSAS! That's like halfway. The reason was that while the alternate (BOS) was good, ther was no way we would be able to get the passengers to JFK for several days. We're required, by law, to deliver the passenger for a flight to their destination within 72 hours. If this cannot be done, they must be returned to their departure city. So all those people that might have been able to get back, by law, get screwed because we were prohibited from delivering them to BOS and renting a bus 4 or 5 days later to JFK, or even another flight. And I also remember that these people were stuck for well over a week. It's a well intentioned law, but it doesn't always go the way it's intended. Simply saying "So many days" or "X amount of hours" guarantees failure. It may not be the first day, or the second, but eventually, and definatly within a year soething will happen. And then you have all these passengers yelling and screaming about their rights and the airline can just say "Talk to your Congressman. We are following the law they passed to protect you." FORCEING change doesn't work. You need to encourage or convice that change is good. I'm not suggesting things like tax breaks by the government (which is how I thought that sounded), but to convince the airlines that if service doesn't improve they'll lose passengers. And if the passengers realise that they have the power to not buy tickets, they'll eventually win.

For the record, I've been in the industry since '98. Not a long time compared to many here, but enough. I remember how it was when I first started. Even before 9/11 it was improving. The industry is improving itself. Leave it be. Point out the problems to the airlines and leave them to their own devices to fix them. They will.
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
The airlines don't always have control of what gates are avialable

Thats why you shut down where you are, or on a patch of ramp, pull up a stair truck and bus the pax in.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
Gates aren't always available, so how would you do this in that case?

I believe under that aborted 1999 proposal, the government naively stated that airlines had to share gates when one airline was out of them. Yeah, right! So, Airline A is gonna loan a gate to Airline B, and mess up THEIR ops? Plus the fact that Airline A has no computers at Airline B's gates.

And, often, just because a gate is sitting empty doesn't necessarily mean it's "open". Especially in a hub operation, you have a flow pattern, and you have to change that quite often as it is. And what good will it do if you do bring that plane into a gate reserved for another flight, then that flight could be without a gate for an extended period of time.

Unfortunately, neither customers nor the government are experts into the myriad of issues that come up by these supposedly "common sense" proposals.

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 6):
Isn't the fraction of lost baggage actually really low, like a fraction of one percent?

Yes. One of the most overblown things the media and customers complain about are the number of lost bags. Unless you're talking about a major weather event, where bags will get separated from customers, the number is quite low.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 9):
No more of this spending 3 days in the airport business because we don't have any open seats.

And how do you create seats on your carrier, or others, after a major winter snowstorm in Denver, 4 days before Christmas? You tell me that? Trust me, if you've really worked for an airline, you'd know that when you're talking a boatload of customers, you try to move them any way you can. But when the other guy has no seats either, then what do you do?

Or, is someone going to propose bumping customers from the flights they're on and have paid for, simply to get out people who were impacted by weather? I don't think so.

This won't come to pass. It simply won't. The airlines will simply pass on any and all costs to the consumer to compensate for the expenses it would entail, and that would be the end of it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 13):
Sometimes pax follows the rule and they still get f in the a

AH HA! Keyword here: SOMETIMES! It should be ALL the time. Pax play stupid all of the time. I have followed the rules: arrive on time, get my butt through security immediately after checking in and be at my gate 35 mins before boarding time. Worked for me and NEVER got screwed over.

Play the airline's game and you'll be fine, that isnt too difficult to do.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 10):
Airlines are probably going to take your money and say screw you.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
They've been doing this since 'the beginning of time' anyway.

With which I will respectfully disagree. Back when airlines actually competed with each other on the basis of service and schedule reliability, airlines were much more motivated than today to provide a high level of service and genuine respect to their customers in the interest of earning customer loyalty... and the results of their motivation were plain to see in tangible ways.

Contrast that with today, where service is typically indifferent at best, where airlines have come to the realization that customer "loyalty" can be easily bought in spite of sometimes wretched service through the "one-two punch" of cheap fares and frequent flyer freeloader giveaways. What motivation do customers today give airlines to "try harder" to consistently offer a high quality level of service when customers have made it clear to ailrines that they will readily allow their "loyalty" to be bought (through giveaway schemes) rather than earned by consistent levels of customer service?
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:27 am

I certainly hope the Congress doesn't make the same mistake made by the European Commission. Raising passengers expectations that they are 'entitled' to compensation when their flights are delayed has only resulted in chaos whenever fog or snow hits an airport.

Message to passengers. Hey! It's snowing out there. We'll do our best to get you to your destination as soon as we can, but don't expect miracles.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):

AH HA! Keyword here: SOMETIMES! It should be ALL the time. Pax play stupid all of the time. I have followed the rules: arrive on time, get my butt through security immediately after checking in and be at my gate 35 mins before boarding time. Worked for me and NEVER got screwed over.

You misread my statement. What I meant was even if you follow the rule sometimes you still get f in the a by the airline. Don't tell me if you play by the rule you'll never get f in the a by the airline, because you'll be lying and a lot of people that have experienced this will disagree.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 20):
Don't tell me if you play by the rule you'll never get f in the a by the airline, because you'll be lying and a lot of people that have experienced this will disagree.

Give us an example. You could be talking about anything. What's a good example of what you mean?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:22 am

Well the example given in the article above shows the pax did nothing wrong, but they get screwed.

There's a lot of other examples. You can browse through this forum and found several good examples of pax getting screwed by the airlines, even though they played by the rule.

My example, I have a family that books a first class ticket on Delta from LAX to BDL, transit in ATL. She got bumped to economy in ATL, because DL cancelled her ATL-BDL flight and bumped her to a flight 3 hours later, without any compensation and even lunch voucher. She was on time on the LAX-ATL flight, and had about 1 hour to transfer in ATL. There's no weather problem and DL did not give any explanation at all. She even had to fight for her seat on the next flight.

What did she do wrong? she got screwed by DL just because she's flying them. I know you guys will argue contract of carrier says the carrier only responsible to transport her from point A to B. That is exactly the problem here. Airline is not responsible because contract of carriage is a one sided agreement, like I argued before.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:20 am

I think a passenger bill of rights already exists, well sort of in rule 240 http://airtravel.about.com/cs/delays/a/rule240.htm  scratchchin 

As mentioned above the rule is most likely part of or incorporated in the air carriers contract of carriage.

That I'm aware of rule 240 doesn't discuss aircraft stranded on the TARMAC but it may compensate for late arrival on the other end. Air carriers as a general rule are not responsible for weather delays however there may be some of those instances which don't fit neatly.

As the article above mentions. rule 240 is not mandatory, contract your favorite U.S. flagged air carrier(s) to see if they have this policy established and ask them for a copy.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6806
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Necigrad (Reply 2):
And what about weather delays? Traffic delays? Delays initiated by weather or traffic that become delayed further due to crew, curfew, etc.?

Couldn't agree more with you. In these cases, it is out of control of the airlines. Some PAX have to realise that.
 
Australia1
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:36 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/16533365.htm

All relevant comments welcome.

The only thing this nonscience will do is push up airfares, due to increased labour costs & handling.

Anyone who can't see this is simply ignorant.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 22):
My example, I have a family that books a first class ticket on Delta from LAX to BDL, transit in ATL. She got bumped to economy in ATL, because DL cancelled her ATL-BDL flight and bumped her to a flight 3 hours later, without any compensation and even lunch voucher. She was on time on the LAX-ATL flight, and had about 1 hour to transfer in ATL. There's no weather problem and DL did not give any explanation at all. She even had to fight for her seat on the next flight.

What did she do wrong? she got screwed by DL just because she's flying them. I know you guys will argue contract of carrier says the carrier only responsible to transport her from point A to B. That is exactly the problem here. Airline is not responsible because contract of carriage is a one sided agreement, like I argued before.

So she should never fly DL again. And, if enough people have bad experiences, they won't fly DL, forcing them to improve their standards.

AAndrew
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 25):
The only thing this nonscience will do is push up airfares

Very true... kinda' like the way defensive medicine which medical professionals in the U.S. are compelled to practice by litigation gone amuck has accounted for a large part of soaring medical care costs and huge annual increases in health insurance premiums. If the airlines are required to build excessive "slop" into their operations to defend against having their pockets picked under the provisions of a Passenger Bill of Rights, their costs too will soar.

(BTW, by "nonscience" did you mean the same thing as "nonsense?")
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:34 am

I think that there is one good thing in the PBOR. The rule about returning PAX to the terminal after an x amount of time. They had the "creator" of the PBOR on The Saturday Early Show. She was one of the PAX on the AA Flight which she was stuck on the plane for 9 hours.

To me, 9 hours is just unacceptable. If they can find a way to get them back to the terminal, they are able to get food (there were 2 medical problems on board; even though one of them should have had her medication with her, and not in her checked luggage).

I think there is a fine line with giving passengers a BOR and giving them a way to abuse the system. Returning passengers to the terminal is a great idea. Just be careful that they don't put wording in allowing people to abuse the system; IE, lost bags, long delays when they are in the terminal.

Just my .02
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:11 am

Could they not sue the airline for stranding them on the tarmac for 10 hours?

No available gates my a$$! Pull some planes out of gates, get the people out, then resume boarding the other flights.

Heck they can even get some air stairs.

No gates available is the lamest excuse to hold pax for that long.

[Edited 2007-01-27 17:13:06]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 28):
To me, 9 hours is just unacceptable. If they can find a way to get them back to the terminal, they are able to get food (there were 2 medical problems on board; even though one of them should have had her medication with her, and not in her checked luggage).

Concur, even if there is not s gate for the aircraft to return to. The air carrier could have moved the aircraft to the bullpen holding area of the airport and bused the passengers back to the terminal.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
Heck they can even get some air stairs.

Or, the case of an MD-80, the aircraft carries its own airstairs at the lower rear fuselage that can be used for boarding and deplaning as well as an additional emergency exit.

[Edited 2007-01-27 21:56:24]
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
All relevant comments welcome.

I agree that all passengers are entitled to their rights, however I just hope that the rules don't hamsting the airlines so much that they will not operate as normal. I lived in the days of regulation and beilieve me it was no fun to operate an airline. In some ways we need a type of pax protection, but also we need a protection for the airlines, so we don't have lawsuits coming out of our backsides
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 28):
To me, 9 hours is just unacceptable. If they can find a way to get them back to the terminal, they are able to get food (there were 2 medical problems on board; even though one of them should have had her medication with her, and not in her checked luggage).

A legitimate medical problem will ALWAYS be accomadated. Usually it's making another inbound flight lose their gate. But I know we would pull a plane off for a medical. I say "legitamate" to differentiate between a heart attack and a panic attack. At my airline we bend over backward for the dumbasses that check their medication too. Even when it's in "the medium black roller bag" that winds up being behind 200 other bags.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
Could they not sue the airline for stranding them on the tarmac for 10 hours?

I can sue you for asking, doesn't mean I'll win. I believe the NW folks a few years back sued, but I don't know the outcome.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
No available gates my a$$! Pull some planes out of gates, get the people out, then resume boarding the other flights.

Heck they can even get some air stairs.



Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
Concur, even if there is not s gate for the aircraft to return to. The air carrier could have moved the aircraft to the bullpen holding area of the airport and bused the passengers back to the terminal.



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 31):
Or, the case of an MD-80, the aircraft carries its own airstairs at the lower rear fuselage that can be used for boarding and deplaning as well as an additional emergency exit.

Pulling planes out isn't as simple as it sounds. There's a lot involved there especially with staffing.

Deplaning on the ramp is not the solution, at least not in the US. Here at McCarran we have a very limited availability of busses, and they don't belong to the airlines. And deplaning on the ramp is a safety and security problem as well. Even with the RJs and people watching the passengers you have passengers that will walk to the baggage bin looking for their bags, or ones that try to wander around to get that cool ramp view picture. And this on a ramp which isn't safe, with pilots that don't know left from right (it happens) rampers that drive tugs like maniacs, caterers that can't back up without hitting someone... The list goes on. Sitting on a plane for 9 hours is certianly irritating, but not any more uncomfortable then a nonstop in coach for a lengthy time. It's psychological because you're on the ground, bored, and can see the terminal RIGHT THERE.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:22 pm

Does this "Passenger Bill of Rights" also come with a "Passenger Bill of Responsibilities"?

Of course not, this is the USA!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
SFOMB67
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:20 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 8):
The airlines will soon enough figure out which members of Congress they need to buy off to keep it from happening and, voila... there will be much talk and no Passenger Bill of Rights...

I'll munch to this ! Wonder what would have happened on this American flight if some big wig US Senator would have been on it. Bet your a$$ they wouldn't have been out there on the tarmac 8 hours !!!!
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
necigrad
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:25 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:31 pm

Actually, as airline employees we try to piss off everyone equally. No other industry can piss of more people and this is why!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:26 pm

Personally, I'm somewhat irked by anyone who attempts to attach the phrase "Bill of Rights" to something as insignificant as customer service issues - doing so detracts from the REAL Bill of Rights and the hugely important issues it covers.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
chris133
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:41 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
or on a patch of ramp, pull up a stair truck and bus the pax in.

Good luck with that one. Most airports want nothing to do with pax deplaning anywhere other than the terminal due to security.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 37):
Personally, I'm somewhat irked by anyone who attempts to attach the phrase "Bill of Rights" to something as insignificant as customer service issues - doing so detracts from the REAL Bill of Rights and the hugely important issues it covers.

It isn't a "Bill of Rights". It's more a money grab, because some people think they should be compensated even if the weather is bad.

If any improvements are to be made, then one end that the customers don't know crap about needs to be addressed-the ATC system, which, often, goes into fits when there's a drop of rain over New York or Chicago.

They need to get the latest technology for the system-GPS comes to mind-instead of 25-year old technology that no longer serves the needs of the air traffic system.

Unless that is addressed, nothing will really change with regard to sitting on a ramp for 3 hours, as ATC tells the airline "update in 30 minutes", and nothing more oftentimes.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
User avatar
ODwyerPW
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:55 am

great. bring on the lawsuits.
learning never stops.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
"Passenger Bill of Responsibilities"

I like this idea...gives PAX something to really think about so that they follow the rules....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
Does this "Passenger Bill of Rights" also come with a "Passenger Bill of Responsibilities"?

Of course not, this is the USA!

There is. It's called a customer service culture built on the premise of, "follow our rules, or else!"

Perhaps this, as postulated by Michael Boyd a few years ago ought to be what customers have a right to expect:



Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
COewrAAtysAZ
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:15 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 11):
Well it seams that most of the time you are victum of the system and not the airline. Do you think that airlines want to keep you stuck on a plane for long times, just to make you made and never fly them again? As was mention in a previous thread, the FAA has something to do with it. Like not being able to get out of line for departure slots with out losing your turn. ATC and airports telling airlines that they will have runways open and then they don't, or other things like that.

I think too much blame is put on the airlines, and part of this propoganda comes from the government themselves. People don't realize that a large majority of delays are ATC-related or WX related... neither of which the airline has control over!!! The government just does a very good job of hiding that side of the story and pointing their fingers towards the airlines. Shame on them... it's not as if their lapse in security didn't screw the airlines even more with 9/11
Continental Airlines: Trabajar con empe�?��?�±o, Volar con Pasi�?��?�³n
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
It isn't a "Bill of Rights". It's more a money grab

 checkmark 

Not only a money grab waiting to happen... Regardless of whether a Passenger Bill of Rights (PBOR) is enacted, the mere discussion of the issue gives politicians a tailor-made opportunity for demagoguery to "prove" how much they "care" about "doing something" to reverse the downward spiral of U.S. airline service and schedule reliability. In reality, the only thing politicians actually care about the issue is how to best grandstand and demagogue on passenger discontent over the direction airline service has taken, in the interest of scoring political points.

Even if the airlines are successful in paying off politicians to keep a PBOR from happening, they will join in the proverbial chorus by blathering something like, "we are teaming up with your elected officials to bring a better air travel experince to you, our valued customer" knowing full well that it's all empty, meaningless rhetoric that will buy them a few more years of being able to continue the status quo until the issue surfaces once again.

The only meaningful longterm solution to the issues behind the rumblings of a POBR is for air travelers to stop allowing their "loyalty" to be bought by cheap fares and frequent flier program giveaway schemes and go with the airlines who best earn their (genuine) loyalty by most consistently giving a satisfactory customer service experience.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 42):

#8 Cracks me up. Simply waive all penalties when the weather is bad, and just get me the hell there, even though I know you can't do anything about it".

Riiight!  rotfl 
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:05 am

#2 really makes me laugh... Its ok for them to blow up at the ticket agents but its not ok for us to give them the same treatment back?! C'mon now...this should be a two way street!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
"Passenger Bill of Responsibilities"

I like this idea...gives PAX something to really think about so that they follow the rules....

Here's a few ideas for a "Passenger Bill of Responsibilities":

1. Treat us with respect. No delay is worth us being called names, being threatened, being mocked or being belittled by any customer. You expect respect from us, but we also expect it in return.

2. Ignorance is not a defense. If you come in and your bag is overwieght, or you want to change your flights, and there's a penalty, simply saying "I didn't know" is not an excuse. You can pick up a phone and call the airline, or go online to an airline's website and find out the rules. We will not simply waive the rules because you didn't know.

3. When there's a maintainence problem on an aircraft, do not assume there's another aircraft sitting around just waiting for you to fly it. Aircraft are finite things-there aren't extra's just sitting around doing nothing. If may take a while to get a new aircraft if one is broke.

4. The weather and air traffic delays are beyond our control. When it's snowing hard in Chicago, all the airlines are affected. If it's snowing hard on Concurse C here, it's also snowing hard down on Concourse A, and they're not going anywhere, either. When that happens, we're at the mercy of mother nature, and we hope you understand that we don't control that.

5. When you're delayed, we understand you're frustrated. We've flown and been delayed, too. nO on likes it. We don't like having to deal with delays either. So when there is one, being nasty, or cussing, or throwing things is not going to get you anywhere. iN fact, it'll get you less. Venting is one thing; going beserk and acting like a 2-year old won't help.

6. When we ask you to board when your row is called, we really mean it. Boarding is only slowed when you board before your row number is called.

7. We are not required to feed you. If there's a meal on your flight, great. Hope you enjoy it. If there isn't, it's your responsibility to feed yourself. We dont' owe you a meal voucher because there's no scheduled meal service.

8. If you have small kids, bring enough diapers and forumla/breast milk to plan for the worst. We will get you diapers in most cases, but it's easier if you plan ahead.

9. Remember, there's no 2am flight to Toledo if you get in at midnight, because you're flight was late. If you're late and have to overnight due to maintainence, we will pay for a hotel; if it's due to weather/ATC, we are not responsible for any amenities, as, again, we do not control the weather.

10. When the airlines say show up 2 hours ahead of time, please do so, and don't show up at the counter 30 minutes prior to flight time. If you have to wait a bit by showing up early, no harm done, especially in the cell phone age. If you show up late, and you have to go through extra security screening and miss your flight, or lose your seat, it's your fault, not ours.

11. Remember, if it were up to us, EVERY FLIGHT would be on time. That way you're happy and we're happy. But this isn't a perfect world, so please, be patient, and act toward us as you would have us act towards you. It will make the experience much more pleasant for all of us.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 46):
#2 really makes me laugh... Its ok for them to blow up at the ticket agents but its not ok for us to give them the same treatment back?! C'mon now...this should be a two way street!

"...a two way street" is the way #2 is worded; however, any airline customer service employee knows how this will work in the real world. Makes me laugh too that anyone as supposedly knowledgeable of the industry as Michael "The Blowhard" Boyd would be so naive as to implicitly assume the blatantly false premise that all airline pax treat airline employees with respect.

As for customers being "verbally abused" by airline employees, that term has come to be re-defined to mean anytime an airline customer hears what they don't want to hear. Such as, "I'm sorry sir/ma'am, our $39 fare is not available in the afternoon of the Sunday-after-Thanksgiving, nor do we have saver award seats available on any of our flights on that date" or "there will be a service fee of $... plus fare difference to change your (off-peak loss-leader fare) flight to the (peak prime time/date) flight you have requested."
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Extra: Passenger Bill Of Rights, Its Coming!

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 48):
As for customers being "verbally abused" by airline employees, that term has come to be re-defined to mean anytime an airline customer hears what they don't want to hear

Thank you! You are rude to someone this day and age if they don't get what they want, and don't hear what they want.

Give that man a Mary Schiavo voodoo doll.
Work Right, Fly Hard

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 717atOGG, AvObserver, Baidu [Spider], flyDTW1992, flyguy89, hummingbird, jcge767, MaxTrimm, MHG, Miami, Planesmart and 196 guests