8herveg
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Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:22 am

Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Shouldn't it be Business Class instead of First?
 
captaink
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:25 am

US doesn't offer First on transatlatic flights. THey offer Envoy, which is in effect Business Class. They have one row of ex First Class seats on the A330, but they are not sold as First Class seats. On domestic flights they offer Domestic First, which other airlines also offer, which is also the traditional way. Economy & First Class.

[Edited 2007-01-27 18:33:48]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:26 am

First and Economy have been the two traditional domestic classes of service. Business is of a recent invention dating back in its current form only as far back as the late 70's, and in the U.S. only available on three-class aircraft, or some limited routes where First is sold as Business.
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ContinentalFan
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:31 am

It's all an issue of terminology anyways... domestic USA "first" class is about the same as intra-European type business class product-wise, though some Euro business class looks more like Economy+, at least seatwise, don't know about the service.
 
8herveg
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 1):
US doesn't offer First on transatlatic flights. THey offer Envoy, which is in effect Business Class.

I think you mis-read the original post. I wrote

'Could someone please tell me why IN THE US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?'

Not, could you tell me why US (as in US Airways!!).....
 
captaink
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 4):
I think you mis-read the original post. I wrote

'Could someone please tell me why IN THE US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?'

Not, could you tell me why US (as in US Airways!!).....

I so did misread your post. I just woke up, must be my morning blindness. Therefore response. What AeroWesty said is right. Big grin
There is something special about planes....
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 3):
domestic USA "first" class is about the same as intra-European type business class product-wise, though some Euro business class looks more like Economy+

What goes for Business within Europe is more like Y+, with better food and lounge access. It's nothing like U.S. domestic First, where even though service and amenities vary wildly, you'll always get a big seat with more legroom.
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ContinentalFan
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
What goes for Business within Europe is more like Y+, with better food and lounge access. It's nothing like U.S. domestic First, where even though service and amenities vary wildly, you'll always get a big seat with more legroom.

When I read that there existed trick seats that turned from a row of three coach seats to two "business" seats on some Europe airlines, I was like "WTF?" I felt similarly when I read that some airlines sold coach seats as "business" class seats by simply not selling the center seat.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Not in all cases.

There are a few domestic widebody flights that utilize Business Class:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ame...ican_Airlines_Boeing_777-200_P.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni...United_Airlines_Boeing_747-400.php
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
8herveg
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 7):
When I read that there existed trick seats that turned from a row of three coach seats to two "business" seats on some Europe airlines, I was like "WTF?" I felt similarly when I read that some airlines sold coach seats as "business" class seats by simply not selling the center seat.

Yep! Sounds like BA and Lufthansa. Makes you mad really considering what customers pay for it. I guess the food and general service is much better though, but BA for sure needs to do something about the seats. Don't know about LH.

Last time I travelled on BA within Europe, I was on a B767 on the way out, and a B737 on the way back. Both times I found it really hard to make out where the line was between Club and Euro class. I actually asked the FA if there was Club class on these flights and they said yes. There wasn't even a barrier between the two classes. I would be very angry if I had paid all that money and my seat just looked like an Economy one!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:57 am

well, there is no "economy" either, they call it coach.

The European concept of flexibility should be adopted by US carriers as well.It might give them some additonal revenue. I have been on A321's which were almost all business except 5 or 6 rows Y, Imagine the yield for the airline. The ride is comfortable, with the center seat blocked and with hte fold down tray table. Even on shortr flights loke FRA/LHR the food is excellent, not in terms of quantity but in terms of quality.

I prefer that over the US domestic "F" where, on a similar distance. you may get a wider seat and some pre-packed junk posing as food.

.
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Stitch
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class? Shouldn't it be Business Class instead of First?

In the United States, their is a tradition of referring to the premium cabin as "First Class" since at least the introduction of the 707 and DC-8. I can't speak of the piston-powered era, but from what I have seen, they appear to be a single class of service, just as it was on the Comet [I].

I believe "Business Class" first entered the domestic air travel lexicon with TWA in the very early 1980s, though I believe QF and SK were the first to introduce it, period. I recall flying in TW Business SEA-JFK-LHR and CDG-JFK-SEA in 1985 and recall UA advertisements for it on their international fleets in the early 1980s.

Business Class is available within the United States when airlines operate their international-config planes (be they two class or three class) on domestic runs. And those cabins are sold and marketed as "Business Class". Also, ATA calls their domestic premium product "Business Class", though it is equivalent to their competitors two-class domestic "First Class" product.

However, the long tradition and ingrained mindset within the US travelling public that the front of a plane is "First Class" will make it unlikely "Business Class" will enter the lexicon of the established majors for some time to come.
 
MGASJO
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 8):
Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Not in all cases.

There are a few domestic widebody flights that utilize Business Class:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ame...ican_Airlines_Boeing_777-200_P.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni...0.php

In the case of AA's 777 flying domestically they are sold only as F/Y, the business seats are sold as coach and most of the times are reserved for top tier members
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 12):
In the case of AA's 777 flying domestically they are sold only as F/Y, the business seats are sold as coach and most of the times are reserved for top tier members

So be it. He was simply asking why US domestic flights jump from economy to first, and I was merely showing that this isn't entirely true. (Regardless of how certain flights are sold or who the seats may be reserved for.)
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
well, there is no "economy" either, they call it coach.

"Economy" and "Coach" are interchangeable terms within the U.S., some fare rules even list it as "Economy/Coach". While you're sitting on the plane, they'll most often refer to it as the "main cabin".

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
I prefer that over the US domestic "F" where, on a similar distance. you may get a wider seat and some pre-packed junk posing as food.

No doubt that airline to airline service levels will vary. I've had a full hot meal with bar service in "Business" sitting in a seat you'd find in "First" in the U.S. on a flight as short as between London and Amsterdam, but in the U.S. I'll get a meal in First based solely upon the length of my flight, the time of day, and perhaps even the type of aircraft (whether it has ovens/full galley or not).
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captaink
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
main cabin

I prefer that term, i feel less broke when I hear it. Big grin
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:40 am

i think the best response to this is that there is no First Class on domestic routes anymore. It's been watered down so much that it's a domestic Business Class product at best.

They call it First, but it ain't the First we used to have.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
srbmod
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:10 am

AirTran and ATA (On the a/c that have been converted) refer to their front cabins as business class. Some airlines have don't even refer to it as first or business class. Spirit calls theirs "Spirit Plus" and Vanguard referred to theirs as "SkyBox".

There is some three cabin domestic service in the US. If you happen to be on one of United's Premium Service routes (JFK-SFO, JFK-LAX), it is a three cabin layout (First/Business/Economy Plus). They also offer the Economy Plus cabin on some of their a/c types as well, but the main difference between Economy Plus and the regular economy class is the Economy+ seats have several more inches of pitch.
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:11 am

Back in September 2001 (about 2 weeks after 9/11) I flew Business Class on AA from SAN to ORD, I think it was on a B763 that went onto CDG. My company's travel agent booked me on economy, but upon checking in at SAN, they bumped me up to Business. I did not complain.  Smile
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:37 am

I should note that UA refers to their domestic First Class product as "Business Class" on flights to MEX and perhaps other Latin American destinations not served with true three-class equipment.
 
474218
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Delta.com list two ATL/LAX flights with Business, Flt 110 and 189. Didn't need to check any further.
 
sllevin
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:57 am

All terminology is inconsistent. "Business class" certainly isn't consistent between longhaul and shorthaul, either.

So we would have to have five -- or more -- designations. Oy!

Steve
 
8herveg
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:32 am

Have to say it is very confusing between each airline. The terms used seem different for each airline, whether it is 'First Class', 'Business Class', 'Premium Economy', 'Economy Plus' etc etc. More often than not, an Economy Plus seat on one airline, for example, might be very similar to a First Class seat on another airline, with similar service.

I know each airline is going to be individual and have its own structure, but I really think all North American carriers should use the same class structure. In Europe, it seems to work very well. This example isn't for every airline and/or flight, but mostly it works as the following:

Domestic Flights: Economy

European: Economy, Business

International: Economy, Economy Plus, Business, First (Economy Plus & First being optional)
 
nomadic
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
I believe "Business Class" first entered the domestic air travel lexicon with TWA in the very early 1980s, though I believe QF and SK were the first to introduce it, period. I recall flying in TW Business SEA-JFK-LHR and CDG-JFK-SEA in 1985 and recall UA advertisements for it on their international fleets in the early 1980s.

Yes TWA was the the first to offer domestic business class, marketed as 'Ambassador Class'. It was available on the trans-continental segment of wide body flights continuing to or from Europe. I flew Ambassador class on a 747 SFO JFK (continuing to CDG) and on a 767 JFK LAX (originating in FCO).

Ambassador Class was also avaiable on select L-1011 flights. There were a few periods when 'C' class was even available on some shorter routes, depending seasonality and equipmet assignments. I belive you could have flown JFK-DEN, JFK-ORD, ORD-LAS and JFK-STL-LAX in Ambassador Class.


nomadic :?)
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Nomadic (Reply 23):
Ambassador Class was also avaiable on select L-1011 flights.

Ambassador Class was on all the L-1011s. Domestic L-1011s were 2x4x2 and International L-1011s were 2x2x2. It's debatable if TWA was the first to offer it domestically or not, since Pan Am had Clipper Class in 1978 (as regular coach seating) before Ambassador Class came into being, the first year they were eligible to fly domestic routes.
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UAL777UK
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:42 pm

UA have F, J and Y+ on their PS Service of course
 
8herveg
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 25):
UA have F, J and Y+ on their PS Service of course

What exactly is a Premium Service?

Is it something only within North America?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 26):

What exactly is a Premium Service?

http://www.unitedps.com/main.html

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 26):
Is it something only within North America?

Yup, and only in the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO markets.
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albird87
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:28 pm

Here is a question..... On AA domestic they call it first class but when you fly down to the caribbean they then change the name to buisness when its exactly the same!!?!?!?? I have flown on 738s, 757s and A300s from the carib and they all call it buisness but when you then connect onwards (and sometimes on the exact same plane!) they change it to first?? I have have soo many ticket stubs that when i sit in 3B from GCM to MIA it says buisness and then the same flight onto SFO and had 3B and had it say first!!

Anybody shed some light on this??
 
bombayhog
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 28):
Here is a question..... On AA domestic they call it first class but when you fly down to the caribbean they then change the name to buisness when its exactly the same!!?!?!??

Anybody shed some light on this??

It changes to 'business' on Caribbean flights simply because the 'first' designator on "international" routes is used only to designate actual international First, which is found on 777 aircraft. You're right that it's silly to have it change on the same exact aircraft, but nevertheless that's the convention. On domestic two-class it's First, and on intl it's business.

By the way, to respond to another post, domestic 777 flights are not always sold as two-class, such as on MIA-LAX, where they sell all three classes.
 
AA757200
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 12):
In the case of AA's 777 flying domestically they are sold only as F/Y, the business seats are sold as coach and most of the times are reserved for top tier members

See above regarding MIA - LAX. Also, AA has three class flagship service between JFK and SFO / LAX.

It is a yield question, as are all operated flights. The right mix of seats and prices yields the most profit. Selling business and first on 99.9% of domestic routes, does not for good yield management.
 
Continental123
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):

Spirit only has business class and not first.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Shouldn't it be Business Class instead of First?

It's all a matter of marketing because domestic F certainly ain't anywhere like what you'll find for business class service around the World with the exception of maybe a wider seat and extra leg room which has more to do with your average American's rear-end and the distances traveled. Try flying on a regional route, on a RJ and you won't even get the seat/leg room that you paid for.
 
expressjetphx
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:26 am

I would say that the terms 'Business' and 'First' are generally interchangeable, at least in terms of domestic US narrowbody or two-class service. Some airlines like AirTran and ATA refer to their premium product as 'Business' while most carriers traditionally call the premium cabin 'First.'

There are several times I recall on DL when I have been booked on domestic runs in F and the pilots as well as F/As referred to the cabin as Business class (and Y the 'main cabin'). There is not really a huge distinction unless it is a 3- or 4-class aircraft.
 
baw716
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:35 am

8herveg,
I often wonder myself.

I have proposed it a number of times during my career; been shot down every time. The thing is, there are never enough F class seats for the number of people who want to upgrade; if we had a European type Business Class product with slightly denser seating (5 across on narrow body equipment) and offered more seats, say 30-40 per cabin on a narrow body aircraft and offered it at the full Y or Y+ pricing, we could make upgrading in this country go away, as it would not be necessary.

Unfortunately, one of the major "perks" of the Frequent Flyer programs in this country is the ability to upgrade to First Class. In fact, if I had to peg which one of the perks were the most important, this would probably be at the top. Given this statement, there is little desire on the part of the airline community to change or downgrade their product further, lest they piss off their most important customers.

As said earlier in this thread, it's all about marketing. That is so true.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
deltairlines
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:29 am

Domestic F is still pretty paltry pickings. I'm mostly on DL now (although have taken a few flights on NW and AA in F in the past 6 months) and unless the flight is over 1500 miles or so, don't count on getting food - you get the same exact offerings as coach. The only things that F really gets on those short flights is a bigger seat and free alcohol. Compared to what I've heard on European business class, where pretty much any flight in Western Europe is less than 1500 miles, you get a hot meal (or choice), complimentary newspapers, overall much better service. The drawback is that the seat is essentially the same as coach.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:44 am

Pan Am was also one of the pioneers in terms uf U.S Business Class service with its "Clipper Class" on all 747's and I believe A300/310's.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:22 am

I believe the business class product was offered to sate government and corp fliers. Keep in mind the US Govt has regulations of which class an employee may fly. Many major corporations mimic these rules. For most of these employees first class is not an option unless the flight is over 14 hours. Business class rules used to be 8+ hours.

The carriers like NWA that offered only business fares then could qualify for most all of their overseas flights to be sold as reimbursable expenses to corp/govt travellers, while offering a superior product over typical business class, yet not quite as luxurious as most 3 class offerings.

Hence why we have business class on international flights. No major corp / govt employee allows it's mainline employees to fly first as reimbursable unless there is no other option or if they are of executive rank. Therefore, most of the domestic first fliers are plat./gold/silver frqt flyers.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.

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