mbj-11
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JM Going Boeing

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:37 pm

Its official, cabinet has approved Air Jamaica's request for their new business plan which involves going to a fully boeing fleet to save money. Go figure. Anyway, I think Mr. Conway CEO of the airline formerly of Continental has pulled one off here. Its a pity the Buses will be traded for 737-300, 757-200's and 767 (whatever they decide). The planes looked absolutely fabulous in the scheme, but such is life.
http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20070131/lead/lead7.html
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tjwgrr
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:57 pm

Where does it say the type of A/C JM is getting to replace the Airbus' will be 733, 752, and 767-?00 equipment?

[Edited 2007-01-31 16:02:08]
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DAYflyer
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:59 pm

Well since CO is getting rid of a number of 733's, thats the easy part. There are also plenty of good 767 out there to be had. The problem will be getting the 757's.......
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md90fan
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:05 am

They should have went after U2's 733, they were amongst the last off the line. Also available are OK's and as you said CO's fleet

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
There are also plenty of good 767 out there to be had

Not really.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
The problem will be getting the 757's.......

Especially with DL grabbing all of the old TWA P&W birds from AA, and FedEx trying to lock down all of the RR powered 752s they can find. For an out of production model, the 752 certainly is in demand! But they can offer many connections to many parts of North America and Jamaica and force AA, DL, AC and the rest of the Canadian charters (Skyservice, AirTransat) along with others to compete to get to places like MBJ where resort operators are looking for more people to come and spend $$$ during the cold, dark (& in the case of SLC; polluted!  yuck  ) winter!
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captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:47 am

Hmm so it got approved. Still not to pleased about the 733 though. How far will that take them from Jamaica? The 752s, I know will be on the Jamaica/New York, Eastern Caribbean/New York routes and possible Jamaica / LA. That leaves all the rest to the 733s as they would be acquiring more 737s that 757s. Lets see how it plays out.
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United_fan
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:00 am

Cayman uses 733's to ORD,so MBJ isn't that much further...
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captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 6):
Cayman uses 733's to ORD,so MBJ isn't that much further...

MBJ is in fact slightly closer isn't it. So I guess they are safe.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 5):
Still not to pleased about the 733 though. How far will that take them from Jamaica?

South Florida, which has a fairly large community of Jamaicans. MIA, FLL and PBI are all within easy reach of KIN and MBJ for a 733.
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captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):
South Florida, which has a fairly large community of Jamaicans. MIA, FLL and PBI are all within easy reach of KIN and MBJ for a 733.

South Florida I did not doubt, that is a pretty short flight from Jamaica. But I was thinking about JM's other destinations, ORD, YYZ, PHL, BWI etc... However as United_Fan pointed out, that Cayman uses their 733s from GCM - ORD, then JM should have no problem using theirs.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 9):
South Florida I did not doubt, that is a pretty short flight from Jamaica. But I was thinking about JM's other destinations, ORD, YYZ, PHL, BWI etc... However as United_Fan pointed out, that Cayman uses their 733s from GCM - ORD, then JM should have no problem using theirs.

Some 738s would be much nicer for those routes.  wink 
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usair320
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:09 am

Sad news. Those Airbuses looked sharp in JM's scheme.
 
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yyz717
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Well since CO is getting rid of a number of 733's, thats the easy part.

There is a plentyful supply of used 733's anyway.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
There are also plenty of good 767 out there to be had.

762 yes, 763 not so much. I doubt JM would want to add used 762's.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
The problem will be getting the 757's.......

Not really. There is a healthy used market for 752's. They may not stay on the market for long, but they are available.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
FedEx trying to lock down all of the RR powered 752s they can find.

So Fedex is only acquiring RR 752's? Not PW?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
Especially with DL grabbing all of the old TWA P&W birds from AA

DL has only committed to 13 of the 19 that AA is removing from service so far.
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mbj-11
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:46 am

The mention about the AC to be used was made about a month ago. As many of you have said, I think the 737-300's are a waste (no disrespect to lovers of that aircraft), I would've even preferred ERJ-190's to be honest. The 737-300 is kinda outta date, but then again, isn't JM's management style?
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md90fan
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 9):
that Cayman uses their 733s from GCM - ORD, then JM should have no problem using theirs.

KX operates them on GCM-BOS too which is longer than the aforementioned routes.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
Some 738s would be much nicer for those routes.

x2, but JM is currently not in the financial position to acquire Boeing 737-800s.

JM is really going to shoot themselves in the foot by getting old Boeings. I wonder what is going to happen to the LAX route which is out of the 733's range and cannot support Boeing 757.

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Heavierthanair
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:10 am

G´day

Seems they are selling off the family silver to stay afloat and raise the quote: "US$60 million to finance its capital requirements".

How can you possibly increase efficiency by buying outdated and less efficient aircraft. I just wonder what the other 4 items contained in Buchanan´s five-point strategy are that is intended to increase the "efficiency".

Another candidate of justplanes.com´s defunct airline list?

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
eraugrad02
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:53 am

Maybe they'll add winglets to the 737/757 to squeeze as much range as they can get. These planes look "sporty" with winglets.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
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zeke
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
fully boeing fleet to save money.



Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
Buses will be traded for 737-300, 757-200's and 767 (whatever they decide).

Sorry, cannot see the money savings there.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
So Fedex is only acquiring RR 752's? Not PW?

There are enough used ones out there on leases as well (Skyservice rejects?). But none the less, the 752 is going to be hard to get due to it's performance. I'm told RR powered 752s are more abundant than the P&W versions.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
DL has only committed to 13 of the 19 that AA is removing from service so far.

13 is the "official" count thus far, but the rumor mill I'm hearing says it might be as many as 15 or 16. JM could pick a couple of them up and sign on with DL to have the work done on them at their ATL Tech Ops Center.
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Xkorpyoh
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:46 pm

Where are they getting those 757 from?


(fair use excerpt)
ir Jamaica has plans for all-Boeing 757 fleet (02/01/2007)

By Gay Nagle Myers

Air Jamaica senior management presented its new five-year business plan to the Jamaican Cabinet earlier this week and included swapping its current fleet of 15 Airbus aircraft for an all-Boeing 757 fleet beginning later this year.

The plan, which was approved by the Cabinet Jan. 30, is aimed at resuscitating the cash-strapped national airline and making it more a more cost-efficient operation, according to Paul Pennicook, senior vice president of marketing and sales.

He said the government had requested a plan from Air Jamaica that would make the carrier more viable and eliminate financial losses.

The initial stages of implementation will incur costs, "somewhere in the area of $125 million over a three- to five-year period, but in the long run we will reduce our debt and our costs," Pennicook said.

The aircraft swapping will take place on a staggered basis over an 18- to 24-month period, beginning in the second half of this year.

The first routes to fly the 757 aircraft will "probably be the routes from New York [Kennedy] to Montego Bay and Kingston [Jamaica] and from Toronto to Kingston," according to Pennicook.

He described the 757 aircraft as "more suited to our mission. It carries 188 passengers and has much more room for baggage. It will carry a larger payload and fly a longer route much more efficiently."

http://www.travelweekly.com/articles.aspx?articleid=54880 (by subscription)
 
eraugrad02
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:54 pm

That could be too much airplane for some routes. I think it was said boeing had some used newer build 75's to sell them. I still think they should get some 737-300/-400s. just my .02 Good luck finding that many 757's. I can wait to see what they do.
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fpofllflyboi
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 6):
Cayman uses 733's to ORD,so MBJ isn't that much further...

True, my only concern is with all the baggage/cargo that JM passengers are accustomed to transporting. Wouldn't weight factor in, when it comes to the amount of cargo and passengers versus the range? Or do the Cayman residents carry just as much baggage?
 
2travel2know
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 14):
KX operates them on GCM-BOS too which is longer than the aforementioned routes.

TA flew B737-300 between SAL and SFO, that's a long route too.

JM shouldn't be looking to do some patch work to the current fleet with those B737-700, some intelligent management would have waited a bit with the A320/321 and replace them with brandnew E175/195.
Also, those B757 won't be enough for the amount of baggage the Jamaicans travel with, If JM wants Boeing, then those B737-200/300/400 would be ideal. Remember AA still flies A300 (a similar B767 aircraft) between U.S.A. and PAP and the Haìtians travel habits aren't that different from the Jamaicans.

Now, I would like to know, does the B767-400ER has range for London-Jamaica?
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mbj-11
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:16 am

All 757's huh? Hmmm, this definitely sounds like Mr. Conway at work. Have nothing against the man, just sounds like a bit of CO if I do say so. Anyway, 757's to Florida, ATL, EWR,JFK,PHL ain't bad. But for the rest of the routes....kinda too much. The problem with JM is they have among the largest loyal fliers in the world for that size airline, but they don't fly often. So I can see 757's going great for Summer and Christmas, but outside of that period, they might as well be using A318's or 19's.
Well we'll see how it goes, but JM still needs to rid itself of those parasitic, free flying , upper class management.
Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 14):
I wonder what is going to happen to the LAX route which is out of the 733's range and cannot support Boeing 757.

They will have to really sell that route, as the 757 is the only aircraft that can be used on that route if they do go with the Boeings.

Quoting Fpofllflyboi (Reply 21):
True, my only concern is with all the baggage/cargo that JM passengers are accustomed to transporting.

Take away, New York, Toronto, and maybe MIami and you have routes that are supported by tourists, the 737 should be fine. The 757s are planned to be used on the NY routes.

Quoting Mbj-11 (Reply 23):
The problem with JM is they have among the largest loyal fliers in the world for that size airline, but they don't fly often. So I can see 757's going great for Summer and Christmas, but outside of that period, they might as well be using A318's or 19's.

Good Point.
There is something special about planes....
 
fpofllflyboi
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Mbj-11 (Reply 23):
but outside of that period, they might as well be using A318's or 19's.

So then why not the 737/w since they want to go Boeing? Further, how much of a huge difference is there between the 737/w and the 318/319 when you factor in baggage room?
 
md90fan
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 22):
JM shouldn't be looking to do some patch work to the current fleet with those B737-700, some intelligent management would have waited a bit with the A320/321 and replace them with brandnew E175/195.

You obviously don't understand how much cargo is a part of a Caribbean airline's buisiness.

Replacing A32x with E-jets would be a disaster for JM in terms of bags and cargo, etc.

Cheers
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 26):
You obviously don't understand how much cargo is a part of a Caribbean airline's buisiness.

Replacing A32x with E-jets would be a disaster for JM in terms of bags and cargo, etc.

Cheers

The A32x is already a disaster on some of their routes during peak times. I concur, the EMBs are not a viable option for JM.
There is something special about planes....
 
georgiabill
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:10 pm

Just a thought is this a prelude to Air Jamaica and BWIA merging?
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 28):
Just a thought is this a prelude to Air Jamaica and BWIA merging?

That would honestly be the day. While possibly a great idea, I am very sckeptical as it actualy happening.

P.S. BWIA died, we now have Caribbean Airlines.
There is something special about planes....
 
2travel2know
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 27):
The A32x is already a disaster on some of their routes during peak times. I concur, the EMBs are not a viable option for JM.

So then those A320/321 should be replaced with a fleet of Next Generation B737, -600/700/800/900 (yes even the -600) not with B737-300 or even E195...
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 30):
So then those A320/321 should be replaced with a fleet of Next Generation B737, -600/700/800/900 (yes even the -600) not with B737-300 or even E195...

Ideally yes. But their current financial situation does not allow them to replace the airbus fleet with 737NGs. That is why they looking at the 733s for routes like ATL, PHL, ORD etc, the routes typically flown by tourists, and the 752s for JFK, YYZ the routes typically flown by VFR passengers with all the load.
There is something special about planes....
 
2travel2know
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 31):
and the 752s for JFK, YYZ the routes typically flown by VFR passengers with all the load.

Would those B757-200 be a disaster for the Jamaicans travelers on peak seasons? Yes, IMHO Yes, it'll...
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
mbj2000
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:35 am

Sorry for my ignorance, but what's the exact fleet of JM at them moment, some people mentioned A32x?

cheers
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
Danny
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:37 am

Sounds like the guy is still acting for CO case not JM case.
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 15):
Seems they are selling off the family silver to stay afloat and raise the quote: "US$60 million to finance its capital requirements".

Air Jamaica and Caribbean Airways are in talks for a possible merger, Caribbean Airways will be flying the 738, so it makes sense to dump the Airbus products. Air Jamaica is in the hole for several of millions, and the Government just keeps pumping money in to keep it afloat. I think that you will see the 2 merger and become a privately owned airline, serving the whole Caribbean. They have now taken over the routes from JFK/BGI since Caribbean Airways has left that route temporarily and increased their flight to BGI. Good Luck to my West Indian airlines
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
md90fan
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 33):
Sorry for my ignorance, but what's the exact fleet of JM at them moment, some people mentioned A32x?

Hey MBJ2000, here is what I can gather:


  • 10 A320-200
  • 6 A321-200
  • 2 A340-300
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
magyar
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:43 am

So for Air Jamaica the way out of the hole is to become the trash-can of Continental?!?
I guess they sell those buses (if they own them) and get dirt cheap write-offs from Continental.
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 32):
Would those B757-200 be a disaster for the Jamaicans travelers on peak seasons? Yes, IMHO Yes, it'll...

Why would the 752 be a disaster for the Jamaicans on peak seasons?
There is something special about planes....
 
yellowtail
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 22):
TA flew B737-300 between SAL and SFO, that's a long route too.


Quite often with tech stop...when I flew it we stop in Mazatlan.

Quoting Magyar (Reply 37):
So for Air Jamaica the way out of the hole is to become the trash-can of Continental?!?
I guess they sell those buses (if they own them) and get dirt cheap write-offs from Continental.

The busses are all leased (from ILFC if IRC).....as for CO...jsut a thought....what if CO is planning to do a COPA style arrangement.....give JM some cash flow, get it profitable, then sell it off...
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
jetlanta
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):

Sorry, cannot see the money savings there.

They save money the same way you save money by buying a 10 year old Honda Civic versus a brand new Honda Fit. The Fit may be newer and a little more efficient, but the Civic has LOW monthly payments. Its that simple.
 
SB
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:57 am

So replace a "a modern and efficient fleet" with ... err ... hum ... to save money  eyebrow 

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 40):

I guess that's the only logic in the affair ... But let's not forget that we have to train the pilots, mechanics, FAs as well, and that doesn't come free.

Also if cargo is such a big thing wouldn't containerised A320/321s be a whole lot better then loose-bulk 733s?

S.
"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
 
2travel2know
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 38):
Why would the 752 be a disaster for the Jamaicans on peak seasons?

Compared to the B767-200/300/400. Again there's reason behind AA use of wide-bodies on the U.S.-Haïti routes, IMHO, JM should know that thinking too when choosing what to fly in extra-baggage sensitive JM routes; B757 hold less cargo than B767.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
tsnamm
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:28 am

What exactly would they replace the A340's with??? a 737? I doubt it...like previously mentioned, cargo is a big monry maker, and an all narrow body fleet would seriously curtail revenues. I hope someone points out the hole in their fleet planning.
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 42):
Compared to the B767-200/300/400. Again there's reason behind AA use of wide-bodies on the U.S.-Haïti routes, IMHO, JM should know that thinking too when choosing what to fly in extra-baggage sensitive JM routes; B757 hold less cargo than B767.

But remember that their sudden liking for the 752s are not out of the blue. They used the 752s on during recent peak periods with great sucess. SO the 757s pretty gets the job done for JM at this point. The 767s are a bit much for some of the routes, even though the airbii are not enough on the same routes. That is where the 752s come in. The one airplane that JM had that was peferct during these times were the A310s. Sadly they were let go in an effort to streamline their operations.
There is something special about planes....
 
mbj-11
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:13 pm

Look possibly for JM to start operating phased out CO aircraft that's just my thoughts. The pilots are extremely unhappy particularly at flying 737-300's (if they come) but its Mike who's calling the shots so they better shut up and fly.
Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
 
captaink
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting Mbj-11 (Reply 45):
Look possibly for JM to start operating phased out CO aircraft that's just my thoughts. The pilots are extremely unhappy particularly at flying 737-300's (if they come) but its Mike who's calling the shots so they better shut up and fly.

I will say this, CO takes good care of their airplanes, so the 733s should not be in such terrible condition.

Does anyone know if CO has IFE on their 737s?
There is something special about planes....
 
eraugrad02
Posts: 657
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 46):
Does anyone know if CO has IFE on their 737s?

Last I read they were removing them since sony no longer makes parts for the center aisle monitors. So my guess is no. But this doest stop the new airline to get these planes from upgrading these planes. Winglets/IFE/etc to give them more life/value.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
eraugrad02
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:07 pm

I was checking out the current aircraft they are flying and something tells me they will be changing the paint scheme. I cant see this scheme looking good on the boeing aircraft. It's too busy even for the Airbus'.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
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RE: JM Going Boeing

Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 48):
I was checking out the current aircraft they are flying and something tells me they will be changing the paint scheme. I cant see this scheme looking good on the boeing aircraft. It's too busy even for the Airbus'.

I think it was on MSFS or something but the paint scheme doesn't look too bad on Boeings. It is a strong colour combination, but i hope they don't decide to change it. Originality is great. I wasn't the biggest fan of Caribbean Airlines livery change from BW's.
There is something special about planes....

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