lawgman
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Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:45 pm

http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?..._4/0_0_1_7_4_2/cseries_update.html

Essentially, Bombardier is still working on a business plan for the C-Series but nothing earth shattering to report.

To summarize:
No official launch yet
Talking with international partners
Will provide a new update by the end of March
Considering using more composites in wings and fuselage
Considering using a next generation engine
If the program goes ahead, entry date won't be until 2013.

Conference call with investors and reporters at 10:30am EST. Probably more info will come from that.

IMO, looks like they are considering going next-gen technology route, hence the 2013 launch date. I can't see this program being a success and will be surprised if there is anything new to report in March.
 
okie73
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:52 pm

Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.
 
timboflier215
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:02 am

Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus, so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus

EADS owned a minority stake of Embraer (about 2%) until they recently announced plans to sell those shares. I'm not aware of where that currently stands. Bombardier approached Boeing about collaborative projects (including the C-series), but Boeing turned them down.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?

With new production technology these days, it's possible that the low-end and high-end variants of the 737/A320 replacement will not suffer the same problems as the 736/A318 and 739/A321. I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.
 
timboflier215
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.

I guess that is true. But if Bombardier or Embraer do go it alone, and make a success, would Airbus or Boeing rue the fact that they did not partner with them to share their success? Or do you think that there is no way that the smaller manufacturers have the resources to build a competitive model?
 
drgmobile
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:30 am

Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus, so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?

I suggested that it might be attractive for Boeing or Airbus to partner with Bombardier a while back, but got SHOT DOWN. I still think it would make a lot of sense from both perspectives.

Doogie
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Lawgman (Thread starter):
If the program goes ahead, entry date won't be until 2013.

2013 is now too close for A and B's A320 and 737 replacements. By then the airlines will know what A and B are offering and most certainly these new replacement models will achieve at the very least 15% better trip costs using new engines (for example, the 787 engine burn 20% less fuel than the 767 engines), new lighter materials than current metal A320s and 737s, and advanced systems such as more electrics for lower maintenance cost targets. All these combined should wash away Bombardier's attempt in gaining the 15% cost savings they are trying to get with today's 737-200/300/500/600, MD80s and A318/A319.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
With new production technology these days, it's possible that the low-end and high-end variants of the 737/A320 replacement will not suffer the same problems as the 736/A318 and 739/A321. I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.

 checkmark 

Also, by 2013, deals would be made and the MD-80s and B737 Classics would be gone to A and B for the reasons you provided.

I would not be surprised if Embraer may come out of left field within the next 12 months for the announcement of a 120-150 seat jet family with a service entry of early 2012. No doubt a new class 20,000 lbs class engine can be ready in 4-5 years.
Only the paranoid survive
 
ikramerica
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:16 am

So now Bombardier even has to build a composite jet to compete in the future. 787 changing the game again?

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This would be a great decision, both for Boeing and Bombardier, but we'll see.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
dw747400
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
Bombardier approached Boeing about collaborative projects (including the C-series), but Boeing turned them down.

How long ago was this? I wonder if now that the Yellowstone product line is more developed, and Boeing has tossed around the idea of a Y0.5, a partnership would be more profitable. It would relieve stress on the bottom end of Y1 (avoid a heavy shrink), allowing it to reach up towards the 787 without loosing a substantial amount of range.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This makes no sense. If they want to wait to have a next generation product then why get the 737 avionics? The 737-700 is an old design and Boeing will readily admit that. So taking that 15 year old cockpit and put in a futuristic airplane makes no sense.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Lawgman (Thread starter):
nothing earth shattering to report

That reads more like nothing at all to report  Embarrassment

EIS in 2013 means head on competition with both Boeing and Airbus new generation narrowbodies. Going up against two families that are sure to fill the gap from regional to widebody with a plane that only goes up to 140 seats is retarded.

Also, I doubt that at that juncture BBD will have the resources for that knife fight. Their commmercial aviation division is basically dead.
 
rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:08 am

History repeating itself if BBD ends up partnering with Boeing for the project. Boeing briefly owned DeHavilland Canada (Dash 8/ now Q series), before selling it to BBD.
Personally, I find it great that BBD is FINALLY getting off their a**es and getting this project underway. Realistically, we shall see how it proceeds in March.
It still baffles me that BBD walked away from the D728/928. Leaving a segment to one manufacturer (regardless of who it is) is like giving the customer only Taco Bell for a choice.... duck   yuck 
Even though they have a history of rejigging others products, history has shown they are very successful at it The CRJ has run its course, and now is the (overdue) time to develop a new product.(OK, don't bash me...the CRJ WAS "revolutionary" when it was introduced...from a dream that Bill Lear had to develop a larger pax version of his largest bizjet....)

BBD...get a move on with this project..... or else the only thing people will be riding on for BBD products is trains and skido's (snowmobiles).....
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:10 am

I guess the right of first-pick for partnership with Boeing in the Y0.5 segment would belong to the Japanese, I guess

The reason BBD needs a partner is that they can't go it alone due to lack of finance. A partnership with Airbus seems unlikely certainyl wouldn't help in that respect. Moreover, BBD has been turned down by Airbus before. 'Incentives' by the Canadian government might be able to turn the tide, but then we'd quickly have another mudfight started in front of the WTO.
 
rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 12):
'Incentives' by the Canadian government might be able to turn the tide, but then we'd quickly have another mudfight started in front of the WTO.

...have to agree with you there.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
dougbr2006
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

I think that BBD dont even have to talk to Boeing, they have to talk with the avionics suppliers to have a cockpit concept and if its Honeywell the basic glass cockpit offering is similar just adaptations for Autopilot, flight control and dynamics. Its a different airframe but the electronics is almost the same. You cant say that with Airbus as the use Sextant avionics so the A and B cockpits are different, but I would guess if you look at the BBD, EMB and Boeing glass cockpit its almost look alike in its technology.

The announcement is no more than expected and you can be sure that EMB will follow suit in a continued evaluation of the market. Dont expect very much in news over the next few months, and dont forget its Carnival next month in Brazil so its party time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This makes no sense. If they want to wait to have a next generation product then why get the 737 avionics? The 737-700 is an old design and Boeing will readily admit that. So taking that 15 year old cockpit and put in a futuristic airplane makes no sense.



Exactly. First and foremost Bombardier gains to benefit with an alliance with Boeing as a common cockpit helps Bombardier get over a huge market penetration barrier. But........why would Boeing be interested in that? What would they get out of it? It complicates their business and takes options away from how they will proceed on Y0.5-Y1. Furthermore if Boeing was to partner, doesn't it make sense to partner with a country that has a huge need of all kinds of Boeing jets and a government that has $$$$ to dish out? China and India come to my mind before Canada.
Only the paranoid survive
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
So now Bombardier even has to build a composite jet to compete in the future. 787 changing the game again?

They have to compete - full stop. If composites offer a competitive advantage they will be used. Composites in and of themselves are nothing but an alternative technology. The 787 has nothing to do with it other than as one more aircraft builder advancing composite technology, which actually makes it cheaper for those coming after.
 
lawgman
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:51 am

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).
 
lawgman
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:51 am

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).
 
lawgman
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:51 am

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).
 
centrair
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series.

I remember reading maybe 2 years ago when they first started talking about teh C-series that it would have an Airbus style cockpit. The pictures showed a side control stick and glass cockpit.

C-series Media About 1 or 2 min in they talk/show about the cockpit.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
flyibaby
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 14):
The announcement is no more than expected and you can be sure that EMB will follow suit in a continued evaluation of the market. Dont expect very much in news over the next few months, and dont forget its Carnival next month in Brazil so its party time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the success EMB has been having with their new E-Jets, I seriously doubt that they will try and mimic an airbus cockpit now. They have the competitve advantage over BBD anyway with the advanced sales of their newest jets, BBD is just trying to play catch-up and offer a reason for airlines to buy their aircraft.
 
multimark
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 10):
Also, I doubt that at that juncture BBD will have the resources for that knife fight. Their commmercial aviation division is basically dead.

You conveniently ignore the succes of BBD's Q series. What BBD should be concentrating on is developing a replacement for the CRJ900, using the time lag to address all the shortcomings of the E180 (ooops 190).
 
ikramerica
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 16):
The 787 has nothing to do with it

Hogwash.

Airbus even tried to make the claim that main structural composite (plastic) wasn't the only way to go with the Al A350 proposal, and airlines didn't bite. They have since had to switch and use them extensively in the wings and fuselage.

Yes, all aircraft use a certain amount of them for certain parts, but the switch to using them for the bulk of the wing and fuselage in the passenger aircraft sector has come due to Boeing and the 787. It was a risk that others weren't willing to take, and now it's become de facto required. In addition, the 787 set a high standard for engine technology rather than a warmed up previous design engine, and the C-Series is going to follow that route (as is Airbus with the A350).

There will be no planes in the future which are new designs that will be accepted into the marketplace unless they use composites in the same way the 787 is and more, nor will new planes be accepted with a warmed over old engine design. That is what I meant by changing the game, and it is what Boeing means as well.

Before the 787, this was not a requirement. The E-Jets used an existing family of engines. The A380 uses plenty of composites (plastic), but not in the same way as the 787. An A380 proposed today would not find buyers if designed in the way it currently is, and even the E-Jet, if designed today, would be under the same constraints as the C-Series...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):
You conveniently ignore the succes of BBD's Q series.

What Mrocktor was implying is that while Bombardier will only produce 50 regional jets this year yawn  . Embraer will deliver over three times that amount. yes  with an avergae unit delivery value far greater than Bombardier unit delivery value.

As for the Q Series, Bombardier will produce only about 65. yawn   yawn 

Bottom line: jets are mainstream market where the real money is, turboprops is and will be a niche market.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):
What BBD should be concentrating on is developing a replacement for the CRJ900, using the time lag to address all the shortcomings of the E180 (ooops 190).

Do I sense a bit of Canadian envy? The E190 will go through its teething like any new plane. By the way, why touch the CRJ 900? it is advertised to have 100% scheduled completion rate.
 wink 
Only the paranoid survive
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
Personally, I find it great that BBD is FINALLY getting off their a**es and getting this project underway.

??? Did I miss something? Nothing in the link or news suggests BBD is finally moving forward.

Embraer has the advantage due to the order backlog.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
The E-Jets used an existing family of engines.

And that is their greatest liability. The CF-34's really don't have that great of fuel burn. Yes, they were the best available... But if the C-series ever does launch with new engines... it will give BBD a large advantage.


As much as I'm a fan of the E-jets, I'd love to see the C-series launched. But every year they delay is a few more E195 orders and thus a slow closing off of the low end of the C-series market. Since the high end will go head to head with the 737RS/A320NG... BBD will need that open niche as a launch point.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:24 am

So, if the C-Series is not coming until 2013, will they launch the CRJ900X now instead, just to have something new-ish to offer from next year?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
History repeating itself if BBD ends up partnering with Boeing for the project. Boeing briefly owned DeHavilland Canada (Dash 8/ now Q series), before selling it to BBD.

No history repeating itself. The Ontario Government bought DH from Boeing to prevent Boeing from selling DH to a European manufacturer. The Ontario Government only later got rid of DH in two chunks to BBD.

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
or else the only thing people will be riding on for BBD products is trains and skido's (snowmobiles).....

BBD does not build skidoo's anymore... that would be BRP.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
dougbr2006
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 21):
With the success EMB has been having with their new E-Jets, I seriously doubt that they will try and mimic an airbus cockpit now. They have the competitve advantage over BBD anyway with the advanced sales of their newest jets, BBD is just trying to play catch-up and offer a reason for airlines to buy their aircraft.

I didnt' mention anything about EMB doing an Airbus style cockpit, my ref was about Honeywell Avionics which is used by BBD, EMB & B.

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 17):
The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allow for airline capacity growth.

As I understand the 'C series' will offer two models in 110 and 130 seat '32 inch' pitch arrangement which is all economy.

I am missing something or does their largest new model only seat 12 pax more than the existing EMB195 in the same config 118 pax. Surely EMB have nothing to fear against a model of really insignificant difference in load capability based on todays technology with an EIS of 2013, that is another 6 years away and you can be sure EMB will do a bigger model before that ever happens, "as soon as EIS 2011 as far as I have been told by people who work inside EMB".

A stretch of the EMB195 would take it to 130 pax capacity with a plug and go method. Have BBD really looked at the market and the airframe that they are trying to compete with !!!!!!!!!! I doubt the logic on this concept in regard to the size of the "C series" I would have thought it better to start at 130 up 150 seats, if your going to take on a tried and testedmodel like the EMB195.

Then they have something new !!!!!!!!!
 
rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:42 am

 blush  blush  blush  "My bad", planemaker, thanks for the clarification...
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multimark
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 24):
Do I sense a bit of Canadian envy? The E190 will go through its teething like any new plane. By the way, why touch the CRJ 900? it is advertised to have 100% scheduled completion rate.

Yes, we keeping hearing about how the E-jets are just having "teething" problems. This one baby with a heck of a problem with teething! Saw one stuck on the tarmac at YVR, as I got off my Dash-8 flight. It was being hooked up to a tug, helping it to limp to the gate I guess.

The CRJ900 has a great completion rate, and better economics that the E-jet, but it can't compete in pax comfort and the market is telling BBD that.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 28):
I am missing something or does their largest new model only seat 12 pax more than the existing EMB195 in the same config 118 pax.

The E195 has 118 seats @ 31 inch pitch or 122 seats @ 29(?)". The seatmap on Bombardier's website of the C130 show 130 seats @ 32" (135 seats if you get rid of the closets) and 145 seats @ 30". So the C130 is a wee bit larger...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
columba
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 30):
Yes, we keeping hearing about how the E-jets are just having "teething" problems. This one baby with a heck of a problem with teething! Saw one stuck on the tarmac at YVR, as I got off my Dash-8 flight. It was being hooked up to a tug, helping it to limp to the gate I guess.

The CRJ900 has a great completion rate, and better economics that the E-jet, but it can't compete in pax comfort and the market is telling BBD that.

That is why LH loves the CRJ 900 it is more reliable than the Embraer, has very good economics and they earn money with it...who cares about pax comfort  duck 
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 28):
you can be sure EMB will do a bigger model before that ever happens, "as soon as EIS 2011 as far as I have been told by people who work inside EMB".

I hope this is not a stretch to the E-195? If so, I call this a big mistake or as Mrocktor says "Bastard Children". It wont be efficient as its aspect ratio will be so off that it will be heavy, and longer than a 737-800, and force Embraer to position their next bigger model starting at 150 seats. Also it would be a good thing for the C Series on the long run. This later model starting at 150 seats would also make them go head on with A and B - not a smart move. Better to go against A and B in small steps by learning the ropes. Anyhow EIS 2011 is 4 years away, that could mean an all new airplane as long as significant work has started and partner discussions have progressed. By the way I heard through my sources that Embraer is talking to several suppliers for a bigger jet but I do not have much else to go on.
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dougbr2006
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 33):
By the way I heard through my sources that Embraer is talking to several suppliers for a bigger jet but I do not have much else to go on.

I have heard this also from some people i know that work at EMB.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 30):
Yes, we keeping hearing about how the E-jets are just having "teething" problems. This one baby with a heck of a problem with teething! Saw one stuck on the tarmac at YVR, as I got off my Dash-8 flight. It was being hooked up to a tug, helping it to limp to the gate I guess.

I agree that it is not good, but they are no different than Bombardier with the CRJ's. Do you remember how long it took them to fix the flaps and doors problems. That is just two items, there were so many other recurring problems like nosewheel steering, the crack of the keel beam, cracking cockpit windshields. These and what the E-jets are going through is the norm, especially when you think that these planes do more cycles a day than a 737. The important thing to keep in mind is that both manufacturers can not affors to not fix these problems as a healthy fleet report card is vital for future sales.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 30):
The CRJ900 has a great completion rate, and better economics that the E-jet, but it can't compete in pax comfort and the market is telling BBD that.

I agree with you there too but it is too late. What they should have done was instead of launching the CRJ 900, they should have not get gun shy from the BRJ-X which was supposed to start at 90 seats, and grow to 110, and eventauuly 130, etc. Instead they took the easy route and stretched the CRJ 700. This got them to market quicker but as you said, it is not a crowd pleaser. If today, they were to launch an all new 90 seat jet, no one would buy the CRJ 900 at the meantime, and more customers would buy the E-175 and E1-190 as any new plane would be at least 5 years away. So they cornered themselves by taking the easy route. That is why I am saying Embraer can get trapped with the same mistake by strethcing the E-195 and produce a marginal plane.
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CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:23 am

An article about the C-Series at www.flightglobal.com, dated Feb 6 2007, ends with stating that the CRJ900X will be launched once "discussions" are done with suppliers. So, the 900X is the next new product from BBD then, for the time being? MyAir, LH and ... as launch customers?

If the Sukhoi SuperJet is as good as the E-Jets, then the C-Series will definetly face a tough battle...
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planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 36):
If the Sukhoi SuperJet is as good as the E-Jets, then the C-Series will definetly face a tough battle...

As the FI: Superjet Special Edition points out, in the near term EMB and BBD face little impact from the SSJ due to low production rate and later Western EIS dates. In fact, for the forseeable future, the SSJ would have a difficult time just to keep up with projected CIS demand let alone any external.

[Edited 2007-02-12 21:54:33]
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mrocktor
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 37):
in the near term EMB and BBD face little impact from the SSJ

Well, strictly speaking the Sukhoi plane killed the CIS market for them. I would not call that a small impact. As far as the rest of the world goes, you are correct. The SSJ won't hit international markets before the E-jets are well beyond breakeven and the production well into maturity - at which point EMBRAER can compete on pricing if its needed.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 37):
In fact, for the forseeable future, the SSJ would have a difficult time just to keep up with projected CIS demand let alone any external.

If true, that's a classic type of problem to have... too much demand.  Smile

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 38):
The SSJ won't hit international markets before the E-jets are well beyond breakeven and the production well into maturity - at which point EMBRAER can compete on pricing if its needed.

Which makes me wonder what BBD is waiting for?


Lightsaber
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mrocktor
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 39):
Which makes me wonder what BBD is waiting for?

Well, the same would be true for the CSeries, with the added bonus of EIS together with the 737RS/A320NG on the top end of the seat range. They'd be in a price/production efficiency bind on the lower end and a financial resources/product capability bind on the top end. A lose-lose situation if I ever saw one.

The CSeries is not going to happen. And if it does, BBD will regret it.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 38):
Well, strictly speaking the Sukhoi plane killed the CIS market for them. I would not call that a small impact.

I did say "near term."  Smile And it is a small impact in that both EMB and BBD won't be "losing" CIS market share since they haven't made inroads there.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
TheCol
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting Lawgman (Thread starter):
I can't see this program being a success and will be surprised if there is anything new to report in March.

Same here. To much successful competition elsewhere.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 12):
'Incentives' by the Canadian government might be able to turn the tide, but then we'd quickly have another mudfight started in front of the WTO.

Agreed. I hope they stay out if it. I don't think the Conservatives will risk it anyway, especially as a minority government.
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OOer
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:29 pm

Why did the 717 line shut down? If there really is such a big market for the 100-120 seat market...would it not have done good?
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 42):
To much successful competition elsewhere.

Successful competition? SSJ has to prove itself and to me success will be measured by notable sales outside their home market. E190/E195 are not exactly in that segment of 110-130 seats in the configuration BBD is/was after. B736 and A318 are competitors, but not successful.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 39):
Which makes me wonder what BBD is waiting for?

BBD probably realized that their technology is not up to where Boeing and Airbus will be when the later two will launch their narrowbody replacements. They probably heard it from suppliers/partners and airlines. It was probably a tough pill to swallow.

They are now in a PR bind and therefore "repackaging" the CSeries as an "Opportunity" rather than live or die, by saying that their core business is Business Aviation and Regional Aircraft. It is a nice way to say to the markets who are watching BBD that the CSeries is not our one chance of turning the business around (it is an add-on to the core business).

So what they will most likely do is keep the "study" alive, hope that some of the 787 technology and an all new center line engine will be available - all sort of like off the shelf (versus in house development), and if they get enough airlines / orders, they will go ahead with it. If not, it will slowly fade into the sunset and they will pull out a CRJ900X, Q400X, and new products in their business jet segmentS.

But my bet is still on Embraer to get into this 120 plus seat market in the next 1-3 years.

TW
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