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BALandorLivery
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Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:24 am

Wouldn't their 767's or 777's have done the job to a similar degree?

Did they buy the MD-11 just because it was a natural progression from the DC-10?

........
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:32 am

In the late 80s, when the MD-11 became available, AA was opening new routes to Asia in addition to expanding to Europe.

The DC-10-30, of which they had several, could make it to Europe from ORD and DFW, but did not have long enough legs for the new DFW-TYO service opened in 1987. AA needed a long range aircraft ASAP since the 747 SPs bought for that route (ex-TWA) were not the ultimate in economical operation, and the MD 11 was available for delivery by 1990 (in theory), well before the 777 (not even announced until OCt. 1990).

As it went, the MD-11 was plagued by range deficiencies and not delivered until 1991, and even then were payload restricted out of DFW as well as SJC to Tokyo. They were improved over the next couple of years, but by then the damage was done and the 777 was available, which has proved more suited to AAs needs.
 
commavia
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Wouldn't their 767's or 777's have done the job to a similar degree?

The MD11's range was (supposed to be) superior to the 767-300ERs that AA had purchased back in 1987. Ultimately, however, the "Death Star" (as the MD11 was lovingly called by crews) proved to be a complete technical and performance flop and frequently didn't meet its promised range or payload goals -- at least that was AA's experience. The planes used to make frequent tech stops on flights to London and Frankfurt in Iceland or Scotland, and were known to be quite unreliable.

As for the 777s, they were not available back in 1989-1990 when AA bought the plane -- and lucky for McDD too, because with the complete pieces of crap they sold to AA, the 777 would have gotten AA's order in a second had it been on the market at the time.

Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Did they buy the MD-11 just because it was a natural progression from the DC-10?

They bought it because at the time it was really the only major, viable aircraft in its market segment that was (again, supposed to be) able to fly huge payloads over very long routes. AA needed the planes for their Tokyo routes, plus routes into deep South America and some longer, more premium, and/or higher-density markets in Europe like London and Frankfurt.
 
EI321
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
the "Death Star" (as the MD11 was lovingly called by crews)

Why that name?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
As for the 777s, they were not available back in 1989-1990 when AA bought the plane

I wonder did AA ever seriously consider the A343?


Have to say I love the MD11, esp in AA colours, what an incredible sight.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Did they buy the MD-11 just because it was a natural progression from the DC-10?

They bought it because at the time it was really the only major, viable aircraft in its market segment that was (again, supposed to be) able to fly huge payloads over very long routes. AA needed the planes for their Tokyo routes, plus routes into deep South America and some longer, more premium, and/or higher-density markets in Europe like London and Frankfurt.

Well, not exactly. The B-747-400 was available, but AA didn't want it.
 
airbusA346
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

Why didn't they want the 744?

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Did they buy the MD-11 just because it was a natural progression from the DC-10?

They bought it because at the time it was really the only major, viable aircraft in its market segment that was (again, supposed to be) able to fly huge payloads over very long routes. AA needed the planes for their Tokyo routes, plus routes into deep South America and some longer, more premium, and/or higher-density markets in Europe like London and Frankfurt.

Well, not exactly. The B-747-400 was available, but AA didn't want it.

They later admitted not going with 744 over MD-11 was a mistake on their part. AA's philosophy seems to be that they don't operate aircraft that large...
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:48 am

IIRC the most widely used nickname by AA for the MD11 was the "scud". It was named after the Iraqi missile used in the first gulf war. The notion was that both took off ok but you never knew where they would land!

Once the payload issues were ironed out the MD11 proved to be a good aircraft for AA for a few years. It was pretty well suited for their route system but ultimately could not compete with the vastly superior B777.

That said I used to love flying the MD11. Very stable, huge windows and a lot more character than many of the latest generation of aircraft.

I am glad that they seem to have found a successful niche as a freighter.

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
EI321
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 8):
They later admitted not going with 744 over MD-11 was a mistake on their part.

Was that due to the MD11s performance shortcomings, or because they felt they would be better off with a larger aircraft?
 
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
The planes used to make frequent tech stops on flights to London and Frankfurt in Iceland or Scotland

From DFW? Wow, that is terrible! A very uncapable plane.
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commavia
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):

From DFW? Wow, that is terrible! A very uncapable plane.

Indeed, from DFW, and from Chicago and elsewhere, and yes, at least AA's models were extremely uncapable aircraft.
 
albird87
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
the "Death Star" (as the MD11 was lovingly called by crews)

Why that name?

Hmmm maybe they blow up from the inside????  duck 
hmmm it was a shame about the MD-11s not being up to performance. Does anybody know what were the problems with it? Underpowered? Overweight?
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
The MD11's range was (supposed to be) superior to the 767-300ERs that AA had purchased back in 1987. Ultimately, however, the "Death Star" (as the MD11 was lovingly called by crews) proved to be a complete technical and performance flop and frequently didn't meet its promised range or payload goals -- at least that was AA's experience. The planes used to make frequent tech stops on flights to London and Frankfurt in Iceland or Scotland, and were known to be quite unreliable.

As for the 777s, they were not available back in 1989-1990 when AA bought the plane -- and lucky for McDD too, because with the complete pieces of crap they sold to AA, the 777 would have gotten AA's order in a second had it been on the market at the time.

It is true that for the first couple of years the MD11 had serious payload issues (and AA was extremely unhappy with them). However to say they were "complete pieces of crap" is unfair and untrue. From about 1992-1993 I cannot think of more than a handful of diversions with technical problems. By this time they had received a number of upgrades which met most of MDD's claims, and their dispatch reliability was comparable to other aircraft in the fleet.

The fact that they are snapped up by the cargo airlines says that they are not the dog you make them out to be. I can't recall many (if any) being scrapped because there was no demand for the airframe. Bearing in mind that most are 15+ years old thats not bad going.

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
commavia
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 14):
However to say they were "complete pieces of crap" is unfair and untrue.

Sorry, but from the people I know at AA (flight crews, cabin crews, M&E), they have all -- and I mean every single one of them -- described the MD11 as one of the biggest pieces of crap they ever came in contact with. They hated the plane -- flying it, working it, maintaining it, etc. -- and their opinion never changed.

You are certainly correct that the plane did get a lot of mod work once in service that fixed many of the initial performance problems, but the rapidity with which AA disposed of the planes once they had a meaningful (and, with hindsight, incrediblely attractive) alternative in the 777, is telling. AA's MD11 fleet -- of 19 aircraft, less than half of the initial plan -- lasted for ten years in revenue service. Further, it is certainly true that the planes have found an excellent after market with cargo operators, but it doesn't change the fact that at least with the early passenger models, and at least in the experience of AA, the planes were horrendously inefficient and unreliable.
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Sorry, but from the people I know at AA (flight crews, cabin crews, M&E), they have all -- and I mean every single one of them -- described the MD11 as one of the biggest pieces of crap they ever came in contact with. They hated the plane -- flying it, working it, maintaining it, etc. -- and their opinion never changed.

As per my previous post I fully acknowledge that this was not an aircraft without its problems. However the opinion I have from an entire AA Maintainence team at LHR was that if you really got to know the aircraft it was actually fairly good to work with.

The AA maintainance team at LHR had some of the most experienced MD11 technicians around (a couple even left to work for FEDEX once they left the AA fleet, just so they could stay on MD11's!) who saw anything up to 8 aircraft every day and the aircraft gave them no more problems than the B767/DC10 that visited. Your previous statement that they frequently diverted with technical problems is simply untrue.

From a passenger perspective the aircraft was also extremely well liked. the cabin was spacious and airy thanks to its large passenger windows and the aircraft was particularly stable in turbulence.

From a pilot perspective the aircraft was challenging to land, particularly in rough conditions and had a tendancy to drop its tail on landing. However once mastered it was extremely rewarding.

I agree that the aricraft initially fell way short of its manufaturers claims. Hoever that does not mean that it did not evolve to become a capable and in many ways unique contributor to commercial aviation.

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:37 am

When AA ordered the MD-11, the 777 did not exist.

AA was relatively late to the 777 party.

NS
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
As it went, the MD-11 was plagued by range deficiencies and not delivered until 1991,



Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
y, but from the people I know at AA (flight crews, cabin crews, M&E), they have all -- and I mean every single one of them -- described the MD11 as one of the biggest pieces of crap they ever came in contact with. They hated the plane -- flying it, working it, maintaining it, etc. -- and their opinion never changed.

I'm not entirely sure that a lot of this criticism adds up. I mean, I was there for the first fifty frames, American took them, they liked what they got, and they drove a damn hard bargain doing it.

Perhaps they ended up at Douglas because the management there would tolerate all sorts of crap to sell airplanes? I mean, two weeks before an MD11 was set to be delivered AA would send in a flying team of "quality inspectors"....their job was to write as many bogus defect reports as they could to get the price as low as it could be gotten. And they did, and they'd go into a close door meeting with the big heads and then the plane would get delivered at a discount, all of which Douglas tolerated because their money was good.

The 'performance flop' that everyone thinks they know everything about mostly stemmed from the Singapore Airlines order that got cancelled. As it happened, a certain amount of fine tuning the software and the pitch trim management got the range guarantees where they needed to be.

IIRC, that was the only order for MD11s that got cancelled. A few got reassigned like the two that were going to go to JAT...they ended up at AA after some bargain hunting.

Now....there IS a certain aerospace company that has racked up 10 cancellations and that's before the ships even get built. Douglas delivered 200 or so MD11s. So how come nobody's calling that certain company's product a performance flop?

It wasn't underpowered and it wasn't overweight.

If anything, it was more conservatively engineered than the competition's products and thereby did suffer a weight penalty. We used to say it was like the difference between a Ford Galaxie and a Volvo....the difference is not apparent until there's a couple hundred thousand miles on the odometer.

The DC10 got a bad rap for obvious reasons related to things that were designed that were not to 'fail safe' or 'fail neutral' principles. With the cargo doors, the effects of a blowout were catastrophic, and they could be basjed shut and look like they were locked. Likewise the hyudraulic routings and the lack of safety valves in the wing hydraulics-although that one was laid squarely at AA's door.

The flaws were fixed but the reputation of the aircraft never recovered. A typical example....my wife: "Oh jesus, I'd never fly on a DC10-they're unsafe! I saw it on teevee!" Me: "Errrrrrrrrrrr honey. Do you know what a DC10 looks like? Do you know you've been riding in one for six hours and you said how nice and quiet and smooth it is?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-11
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bdl2stl2pvg
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 8):
Well, not exactly. The B-747-400 was available, but AA didn't want it.

They later admitted not going with 744 over MD-11 was a mistake on their part. AA's philosophy seems to be that they don't operate aircraft that large...

AA did actually reach an agreement with Canadian Airlines to take 2 744s in anticipation of being awarded an ORD - NRT route during the route award process in the late 80s. In the end, the ORD route was awarded to UA, CO received the SEA route and AA was given the SJC - NRT route that they asked for. While getting that first Tokyo route was better than nothing, the range and capacity of the 744 was not required and Canadian kept those 2 744s.
 
coleplane
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
management got the range guarantees where they needed to be.

Just to add to this, I read that by the time all modifications had been completed the MD11 was "exceeding" it's original design range.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
They hated the plane -- flying it

Hmmmm. I had the opportunity to visit with both a DC10 and MD11 captain from two separate airlines and each stated these were excellent aircraft.

I won't dispute the aircrafts initial shortcomings.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:52 pm

I have to agree that the md11 bashing is way out of line.

The MD11 failed because it was economically upstaged when the 777 and even the A340 moved quickly onto the market. The 777 was an all new design while the MD11 was a Dc10 variant. There have been former McDonnell Douglas execs that said that MD had to invest money in a new wing in order for the MD11 to succeed but MD didn't have that kind of money so they basically made minor modifications - with the result that the aircraft was never a commerical success.

The 777 wasn't available when AA and DL - the other large US passenger operator - had to move up to a longer range aircraft.

Also, twins were not accepted as being viable over the Pacific in the late 80s and early 90s. DL and AA both were large operators of trijets and knew the value of that type. ... yes, DL operated the DC10 in addition to the TriStar.

While the MD11s did not perform as intended, it was capable of regularly making 6800 mile flights like DL's ATL-NRT even if it didn't do it economically. The MD11s limits became obvious when DL tried to push the MD11 to LAX-HKG.

DL's MD11s rarely diverted - and the only real difference between DL and AA's models was the engine type - DL went w/ PW engines while AA went w/ GEs. And both of those engines were comparable to other engines in the carriers' fleets, including with the 763ERs.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
Also, twins were not accepted as being viable over the Pacific in the late 80s and early 90s. DL and AA both were large operators of trijets and knew the value of that type. ... yes, DL operated the DC10 in addition to the TriStar.

Wasn't the time when DL operated the DC-10 just shortlived? They inherited the DC-10 from the merger with Western, plus I believe they never operated the Intercontinental Series 30, only the domestic Series 10.
 
NYCAAer
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:04 pm

I worked as a F/A aboard AA's MD-11s on JFK-ORY, JFK-LHR, JFK-SDQ and ORD-LHR. I don't ever recall the "Death Star" nickname, but do remember it being called the "Scud" or my personal favorite, the "MD-Lemon." There was another joke that we were going to paint them blue so they would match our ground equipment. Most of that came from being one the MD-11's first customers and there were teething pains when we first got them in 1991 and 1992. After a while things smoothed out and it flew just fine. It did have a very passenger and F/A friendly cabin- no complaints there. It's not the 777, but it was a good plane for its time and it was fairly popular with flight attendants.
 
ordpark
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:31 pm

It seemed like a good idea at the time!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
They bought it because at the time it was really the only major, viable aircraft in its market segment that was (again, supposed to be) able to fly huge payloads over very long routes.

MD was first to market. If they had delivered the goods, who knows what might have happened. But they didn't take advantage of their position (building a new wing, getting the bugs worked out before hand, etc.)

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Well, not exactly. The B-747-400 was available, but AA didn't want it.

It didn't suit them at the time, but then they soon expanded via route authorities where the 744 may have made sense, but it was too late. And it is much bigger than what AA had flown since they got rid of their original 747s.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 23):
There was another joke that we were going to paint them blue so they would match our ground equipment.

ROFL. One of the funniest things I ever read here on a.net.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 23):
It did have a very passenger and F/A friendly cabin- no complaints there.

As did the DC-10 as well. I always loved being a pax on that plane on AA.
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Piedmont767LGW
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Wasn't the time when DL operated the DC-10 just shortlived? They inherited the DC-10 from the merger with Western, plus I believe they never operated the Intercontinental Series 30, only the domestic Series 10.

DL operated DC-10's on at least two separate occasions.

Once was, as you mention, when the Western merger occurred, and the other was in the early 70’s while awaiting L1011 deliveries. The DC-10s used in the early 70’s were leased from UAL, and were brand new at the time the lease occurred, if I am remembering this all correctly.

Without doing some research, I can’t tell you how many were leased from UAL, or for how long.

Piedmont767LGW
 
ual777
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:04 pm

I know some UA pilots who "lovingly" called the DC-10 the "flying coffin."
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:12 pm

AA wanted a long haul smaller than a 744 but larger than a 763. At the time the MD-11 was the best option. Not to mention AA was the biggest Douglas customer since the 1970's. Being so committed to the Mad Dogs helped the sale.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):

 checkmark  checkmark  AA practically robbed MD. They had a considerable discount for the MD-80's as well. And they ruined the DC-10's appeal causing the AA191 accident.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
There have been former McDonnell Douglas execs that said that MD had to invest money in a new wing in order for the MD11 to succeed but MD didn't have that kind of money so they basically made minor modifications

As it turns out, the McDonnell side of the corporation took too much control and made many poor decisions. Unlike the Douglas personnel, they simply did not know how to be successful in the commercial airliner spectrum.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Wasn't the time when DL operated the DC-10 just shortlived?

From '72-'75 prior to the Tristars and briefly after the Western acquistion in '87.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
MD was first to market. If they had delivered the goods, who knows what might have happened.

The McDonnell was the MD-11's own worst enemy. The MD-90 also was an mx pain when it first entered service. That was all she wrote.
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WesternA318
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
The flaws were fixed but the reputation of the aircraft never recovered. A typical example....my wife: "Oh jesus, I'd never fly on a DC10-they're unsafe! I saw it on teevee!" Me: "Errrrrrrrrrrr honey. Do you know what a DC10 looks like? Do you know you've been riding in one for six hours and you said how nice and quiet and smooth it is?"

 rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 28):
Not to mention AA was the biggest Douglas customer since the 1970's

Umm, wasnt it since like, the 1930's?
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kappel
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
Indeed, from DFW, and from Chicago and elsewhere, and yes, at least AA's models were extremely uncapable aircraft.

Wow, to think that KLM now flies them to SFO from AMS. I guess KLM's bird are different than AA's? IIRC KLM was a bit late (as usual) in ordering the MD11
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September11
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:38 pm

Delta had MD-11s as well.

Anyone notice larger "American" font size and space on MD-11s?


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ikramerica
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting September11 (Reply 31):
Anyone notice larger "American" font size and space on MD-11s?

Yep. "American" font size, type and spacing seemed to differ on all their widebodies. I never got it, as it really didn't look good the way they did it on the MD11.
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EI321
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
Quoting September11 (Reply 31):
Anyone notice larger "American" font size and space on MD-11s?

Yep. "American" font size, type and spacing seemed to differ on all their widebodies. I never got it, as it really didn't look good the way they did it on the MD11.

Maybe because the stripes seem to vary in thinckness from type to type in the AA fleet. For aesthetic reasons, the entire logo must look straight from a side on view, and some types have more space on the fuselage to fit this in, so have a larger logo. I think the AA'a livery is like a good wine, just gets better with age  bigthumbsup 
 
WSOY
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:48 pm

As an aside, the launch customer of the MD-11 will be flying them until somewhere around 2013. From 1990 that'll make some 23 years of scheduled intercontinental passenger service.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
DL went w/ PW engines while AA went w/ GEs. And both of those engines were comparable to other engines in the carriers' fleets, including with the 763ERs.

I believe that DL's B-767-300ERs have GE CF-6s. But, the DL MD-11s were powered by PW-4000s.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
MD was first to market. If they had delivered the goods, who knows what might have happened. But they didn't take advantage of their position (building a new wing, getting the bugs worked out before hand, etc.)

I will tell ALL you a.netters the secret of the reason why the MD11 failed.

It was not because the airplane was 'the death star' or the 'flying coffin' or any such anecdotal bullshit from the coffee shop or the break room or more likely the Boeing publicity and rumor department.

Pilots don't buy airplanes, airlines do. Crew trash talking doesn't change the decisions upstairs-if it did we'd all still be flying Connies because they were a lovely airplane. Why didn't AA buy Tupolevs? Because they really AREN'T safe.

The Singapore Airlines cancellation was not a disaster because all those aircraft that had long lead items purchased were sold to other people. Some were stored briefly as I recall.

No, the reason the MD11 failed and Douglas went down the toilet can be laid squarely at the feet of ONE decision.

That decision was to replace Jim Worsham with Robert Hood.

Jim Worsham was like Cal Worthington-by god, the man could get out there and SELL airplanes. Maybe they were sold at a discount but he kept the orders rolling in.

But somebody decided he had to go....too "old school"?

And they replaced him with an administrator who was not only incompetent, he was hardly ever on the property.

I used to see Worsham all over the plant on his golf cart, talking to workers and engineers...I never saw Robert Hood. Not once.

And Robert Hood, whatever his other attributes might be, never was much good at marketing. If you don't sell airplanes it doesn't matter how good you are in any other respect.

See, the SALESMEN are the people that provide for the rest of us. They go out, hit the road, glad hand the customers, get them to sign the contracts and fork over a check, and then they're off to Maui. God bless them.

Worsham put a lot of food on my table. Robert Hood only hastened the decline and fall of Douglas.

http://www.victorvillecity.com/Conquistador_flying_high_for_SCLA.pdf

Jim is a Razorback, too. Maybe that's why I liked him.

http://www.engr.uark.edu/139.htm




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Jim Worsham
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coa747
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:59 am

When McDonnell's people took over at Douglas that was the beginning of the end. They didn't want to spend the money on the commercial line and by the time the MD-11 rolled around it was showing all over the organization. If you don't give people the resources they need to do their job then the organization is doomed to fail and that is exactly what happened. McDonnell's people killed the commercial aircraft division and made a takeover by Boeing inevitable.
 
tommybp251b
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Wasn't the time when DL operated the DC-10 just shortlived? They inherited the DC-10 from the merger with Western, plus I believe they never operated the Intercontinental Series 30, only the domestic Series 10.



Quoting Piedmont767LGW (Reply 26):
Without doing some research, I can’t tell you how many were leased from UAL, or for how long.

Hi Guys!
1. Here are the Fotos!
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...truecount=false&engine_version=6.0

2. In one of the picture it is mentioned that they had 5 DC-10 from UAL

3. They are all DC10-10 as you can see that there is no middle landing gear.

Best Regards. Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:53 am

The MD-11s operated by SwissAir must have been better units. I rode one from JNB to ZRH with no hiccup, and that's longer than the problem legs some people here have been referring to.
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CroCop
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 14):
The fact that they are snapped up by the cargo airlines says

well, not a whole lot. The fact cargo carriers dont want to spend 150million on a brand new jet, so they buy a dog like the MD-11 and save a buck.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting CroCop (Reply 40):
well, not a whole lot. The fact cargo carriers dont want to spend 150million on a brand new jet, so they buy a dog like the MD-11 and save a buck.

Gee surprising then that there are orders for A380F's and 777F's
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American 767
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 34):
As an aside, the launch customer of the MD-11 will be flying them until somewhere around 2013.

I think it's Finnair. I don't know if Finnair was the only launch customer, Swissair and Alitalia were among them too, but Finnair definitely was the first airline to take delivery of the MD-11 aircraft and the only one to operate it as early as 1990 the year the MD-11 made its maiden flight.
KLM and Alitalia still have them but they took delivery of those a little later than Finnair did, I think KLM got its first MD-11 only in the mid 1990's. It looks like Finnair will have the distinction of having operated the MD-11 in pax version the longest period of time.
I was going to write a topic about it but I will ask my question now since this topic is all about the MD-11:
Why didn't SAS order any? I find this surprising that SAS never had MD-11's. SAS was always a loyal customer at Douglas since 1946 and was an early customer for the DC-10. I think that they were happier with the DC-10 than they were with the B747.

You're right about American. Payload vs range was the problem. I remember in the mid 1990's when they(AA) were flying MD-11's to NRT, they couldn't do it nonstop from SJC. The aircraft had to stop in SFO or OAK for refueling because the runway was at that time too short for the MD-11 to take off at its MTOW. American had ordered as many as 50 MD-11's but took delivery of only 19 of them, if not less than that...definitely less than 20 units. Most of AA MD-11's went to Fed Ex, the last one left in 2001.

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worldtraveler
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:45 am

DL flies both GE and PW powered 767s. Their original ERs are PW powered. They switched to GE engines later.

Also, DL flew the DC-10 as protection because of the delays Lockheed incurred in delivering the TriStar due to Rolls-Royce's problems. DL flew all of the first generation widebodies, and if you count the A310 as representative of Airbus' widebodies, it also flew all of the next generation western built widebodies as well.

The MD-11 is a solid plane; it isn't necessarily the cheapest plane to operate but ownership costs are quite low at this point. It's fuel inefficiency relative to the 777 is its biggest impediment but the tradeoff between ownership and operating costs is reasonably valid at current fuel prices. When it comes to long-range performance of 7000 miles or more, the MD11 just doesn't compete. The extra capacity of the MD-11 doesn't make sense for the relatively small range premium the MD-11 has over the 767 but yet a deficit compared with the 777.
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:50 am

AA being anti-747 in 1990 meant the only plane to fit the bill was the MD-11. Had they ordered 744 to fly to Brazil, Argentina, LHR and NRT life would have proved much grander. 777 fit AA perfectly, they are not too big. I just love the sight of the AA 747SP I flew to LHR in 1991 and 744 would have been nicer.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 44):
AA being anti-747 in 1990 meant the only plane to fit the bill was the MD-11.

AA wasnt just anti 747. Bob Crandall made it AMR's operating policy to not operate 4-engine transports, as they were "far too many engines for what we need". The only time AA broke this was when they started DFW-NRT and took 2 of TWA's 747SP's as nothing else was available.
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Garri767
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
They later admitted not going with 744 over MD-11 was a mistake on their part.

source?

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 12):
The fact that they are snapped up by the cargo airlines says that they are not the dog you make them out to be

 checkmark 

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 14):

The AA maintainance team at LHR had some of the most experienced MD11 technicians around (a couple even left to work for FEDEX once they left the AA fleet, just so they could stay on MD11's!) who saw anything up to 8 aircraft every day and the aircraft gave them no more problems than the B767/DC10 that visited. Your previous statement that they frequently diverted with technical problems is simply untrue.

 checkmark 

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 18):
Hmmmm. I had the opportunity to visit with both a DC10 and MD11 captain from two separate airlines and each stated these were excellent aircraft.

 scratchchin 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
The MD11 failed because it was economically upstaged when the 777 and even the A340 moved quickly onto the market. The 777 was an all new design while the MD11 was a Dc10 variant.

 checkmark  exactly. It was a remake of the DC-10 while the 777/340 were new technology.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 21):
There was another joke that we were going to paint them blue so they would match our ground equipment.

 hissyfit  i dont get it!

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
The flaws were fixed but the reputation of the aircraft never recovered. A typical example....my wife: "Oh jesus, I'd never fly on a DC10-they're unsafe! I saw it on teevee!" Me: "Errrrrrrrrrrr honey. Do you know what a DC10 looks like? Do you know you've been riding in one for six hours and you said how nice and quiet and smooth it is?"


 rotfl 

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
extremely uncapable aircraft.

tell that to KLM who plans to keep them through (and later then) 2010.
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
WSOY
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
The MD-11 is a solid plane; it isn't necessarily the cheapest plane to operate but ownership costs are quite low at this point. It's fuel inefficiency relative to the 777 is its biggest impediment but the tradeoff between ownership and operating costs is reasonably valid at current fuel prices.

Agreed. Here's what I wrote in another old CivAv thread: "Finnair A343 (Ex-VS) Arrived At HEL ":
"As for the operating costs of the MD-11, Finnair's Colin Molloy explains in the article: "an MD-11 consumes 12-14% more fuel than an A340, but carries more freight. (...) the capital costs of an MD-11 are less than half of those of a B777 -- that buys a lot of fuel." Also, the MD-11 is faster than the A340."
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elbarto6975
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 44):
Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 21):
There was another joke that we were going to paint them blue so they would match our ground equipment.

i dont get it!

Maybe now:

There was another joke that we were going to paint them blue so they would match our >>other<< ground equipment.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1978
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 28):
Not to mention AA was the biggest Douglas customer since the 1970's

Umm, wasnt it since like, the 1930's?

Did AA ever order DC-8's? I don't think so.. someone please correct me if I'm wrong. They did have large fleets of Convairs and 707's though...

Quoting Kappel (Reply 28):
Wow, to think that KLM now flies them to SFO from AMS. I guess KLM's bird are different than AA's? IIRC KLM was a bit late (as usual) in ordering the MD11

The KLM MD-11's are the best in the industry, along with the ex-Swissair Advanced Heavy birds. The KLM MD-11's were first delivered in Nov. 1994 with a larger No. 2 engine intake, which is 400lb light and offers increased efficiency. Not all MD-11's are the same. When someone says the MD-11 is a piece of crap it's simply not true.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 32):
As an aside, the launch customer of the MD-11 will be flying them until somewhere around 2013.

I don't know if AY plan to operate them that long. It all depends how long it takes Airbus to develop the A350. I hope they do operate them for several more years. They are one of the few airlines to add more MD-11's to their fleet in the last few years. The newer airframes are also ER's.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
Robert Hood only hastened the decline and fall of Douglas.

No question about it. Additionally John McDonnell also doomed the company with the TQMS morale killer. Harry Stonecipher took the helm 10 years too late.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 35):
McDonnell's people killed the commercial aircraft division and made a takeover by Boeing inevitable.

 checkmark  Although there were attempts in the final years to right the ship. As late as 1994 MD posted a profit.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 40):
Why didn't SAS order any?

SAS actually did place order for the MD-11 in 1986. The order was cancelled in 1988. BA, BCal, Dragonair, and UTA also cancelled orders that year.

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 44):
It was a remake of the DC-10 while the 777/340 were new technology.

The fact that it was a modernized DC-10-30 is what prompted many airlines to order it in the first place. The DC-10 was very popular overseas.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
WSOY
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 47):
an aside, the launch customer of the MD-11 will be flying them until somewhere around 2013.

I don't know if AY plan to operate them that long. It all depends how long it takes Airbus to develop the A350. I hope they do operate them for several more years. They are one of the few airlines to add more MD-11's to their fleet in the last few years. The newer airframes are also ER's.

The original "1st gen." MD11 - A350 phaseout was to take place around 2011. With the "2nd gen." A350 schedule still in flux, a 2013 date is a hopeful guess.

There will be no more MD11 additions after OH-LGG, ex-Varig. That single -ER airframe is no longer in an ER configuration, I checked that in the official registry database. The extra tanks have been removed. All AY MD11s also have the same MTOW.
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CroCop
Posts: 152
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RE: Why Did AA Buy The MD-11?

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):
Gee surprising then that there are orders for A380F's and 777F's

Gee, I never thought of that  Yeah sure When the MD-11 was being courted as the choice for AA the A380 nor the 777F's were even on paper, or designed. Name the last NEW plane a cargo company purchased in mass to fly cargo? If I am wrong then correct me, dont use 2 planes of today as an example.

With competition so fierce today between airbus and boeing they have to cut deal to get carriers to fly their planes. so during that period name a fleet type from either company that a cargo company purchased NEW.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic

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