787kq
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As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:57 am

From New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/30/bu...8a75d4&ei=5035&partner=MARKETWATCH

Some is okay, but not too much, unless you own the airline.

The same goes for management.

[Edited 2007-01-31 17:58:11]
 
ikramerica
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:05 am

It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flyorski
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:11 am

I think the unions know that the management is taking advantage of the situation, and keeping "normal" employees pay lower than it need be, and taking that money for themselves. This is not unions demanding too much, but managements plans to rob employees of money while stuffing there own pockets being checked.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
luv2fly
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
flydeltasjets
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:36 am

Not sure about anything else, but that pilot on the far right is a great looking guy!
 
bond007
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

Another ...  checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
peterpuck
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy

If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.
 
airfrnt
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:52 am

There were two mistakes that led to this sorry state of affair.

  • Management bought planes and added capacity without any thought of pricing power.
  • Unions demanded exorbitant payouts, that put pilots well on top of the pay per hour scale, and every one else way above the norms in other industries.


Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.
 
CO767FA
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.

What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.
 
ssides
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

Preach on, brother.

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.

Primarily for retention purposes. As we all (or anyone who has read an economics textbook) know, labor is a commodity that is subject to the laws of supply and demand. As such, wages are dictated by a competitive market, which is generally based on a person's skill and his ability to find work elsewhere.

In today's market for airline pilots, a worker that is not satisfied with his pay has few options. There are not many places where he can go work for better pay. For a head of corporate finance, a COO, or HR director, however, the market is much broader. Don Carty just went to work for Dell. An airline CFO could get lured away by a high-flying company like Google. Thus, while an airline is competing with other financially-distressed companies in the pilot market, in the management market it is competing with companies with much stronger finances.

In addition, managers are often compensated in connection with share prices, because much of their pay is set by a board of directors elected by shareholders. For these employees, their primary duty is to build shareholder value. In the past year and a half, AA's managers have turned AA's finances around to where shareholders now have over $8 billion in equity, compared with $2 billion in 2005. This is primarily due to improvements in the balance sheet and other financial benchmarks.

Rank-and-file employees, on the other hand, are generally compensated in connection with profitability. AA has begun to turn the corner, but its profits are still somewhat thin. I am all for these employees being compensated in line with profits, and I believe this will happen if AA continues a good run of profitable quarters. However, compensating these employees based on share price is more problematic, primarily due to the fact that the sheer number of rank-and-file employees eclipses management by a factor of 10. What the unions should be fighting for, in my view, is restricted stock compensation much like WN employees have. To my knowledge, no legacy carrier union has really fought for this, instead choosing traditional hour-based compensation.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
halls120
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
There were two mistakes that led to this sorry state of affair.

Management bought planes and added capacity without any thought of pricing power.
Unions demanded exorbitant payouts, that put pilots well on top of the pay per hour scale, and every one else way above the norms in other industries.


Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.

Let's hope the airline unions are looking long and hard at the sorry state of Detroit. GM and Ford are in extremis, due in large part to union greed.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.

Unions were a critical and necessary part of the American economy. Without them, there would indeed be no middle class as we know it. Problem is, unchecked union greed has severely wounded what manufacturing base we have left in this country.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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zeke
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:29 am

Payout employee pensions and get rid of Chapter 11 in the USA to start with, then we can talk healthy compared to the global scale.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:35 am

FA's really should get more money. But I guess so many people want and can do that job there is no leverage. A while back someone posted a thread on what the RJ pilots get and I was shocked. RJ pilots really should get big pay raises. Airlines take advantage of the RJ pilots because the RJ guys need that as a stepping stone to the big time. If that thread was accurate, you could make more money driving a cab to and from the airport than being a RJ pilot.
 
RogerThat
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The gander got the goods too. IIRC, part of the 2003 wage give backs was options on AMR shares with a strike price of 7.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 9):
For a head of corporate finance, a COO, or HR director, however, the market is much broader.

IIRC, former AMR exec James Beer left for Symantec.

All you union hard liners need to remember that stock prices are forward looking. If the price of oil goes up or there's a quarter or two below expectations, those soaring stock prices will come crashing back down.
 
EvilForce
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:43 am

And stories like this make me realize why I would never own an airline. They haven't even strung together ONE decent year yet and the unions are already wanting more money? Good grief! Repair the bottom lines first then start working on wages.

It'll be interesting to see the Delta cheerleaders when the bonuses for management are announced post bankruptcy exit.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):

What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

What a absurd statement. I am really curious how you think management in DEN could control the weather in DEN. DEN in one month got more snow then in any of the previous five winters (for the record winter here == when it snows usually in Colorado).

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.

Which is why statistics show that using your own correlation - unions started declining in the 80s - that far more people are in the upper class in America, and far less (20% less) are in lower, and 5% less are in the middle class. In other words, the middle class is smaller, but so is the lower, and it's all gone to the upper.

The word extinct is correct insofar as the legacies are concerned. The legacies in the US are dinosaurs. They are protected, coddled, and placated. They feed a army of special interest. And overall, not a single one of them have turned a profit over the last 40 years. The LCC's have them beat on service, and on price, and on reliability. Unless something drastic changes, the second the US ownership laws go away, or the LCCs start flying internationally, is the moment the legacies die.

Bob Crandall is right. Airlines are the last place anyone should ever invest in.

Your facts are simply wrong, because they are nothing more then emotion. Let go of your hatred, realize that just like in the car business, companies without unions are more competitive and provide a better working environment, and usually better pay.

Or realize that there are places where wearing a union sticker doesn't mean "f*ck the company" at every turn.
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:51 am

All good points, but the most important one remains...

That pilot on the right is extrodinarily good-looking!
 
ssides
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting RogerThat (Reply 13):
The gander got the goods too. IIRC, part of the 2003 wage give backs was options on AMR shares with a strike price of 7.

AMR closed at $37.05 today. If you are correct about the option grants, and if your average pilot got 1,000 shares, they'd be could cash in a net of $30K. Not executive pay, but not a bad return over three years, either.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Your facts are simply wrong, because they are nothing more then emotion. Let go of your hatred, realize that just like in the car business, companies without unions are more competitive and provide a better working environment, and usually better pay.

Or realize that there are places where wearing a union sticker doesn't mean "f*ck the company" at every turn.

Excellent point. Over time, the goal of (many, not all) unions transformed into protecting and assisting workers to squeezing every last piece of forward cash flow from the employer. Case in point: UAW bargaining over health benefits. A few years ago, as their contract was being renegotiated, the slogan was "Co-pay? No way!" While companies were bleeding cash and health care costs were skyrocketing, the unions wouldn't even consider sharing a slice of that burden. Meanwhile, most employees elsewhere were paying a modest $15-$30 co-payment for prescriptions and doctor visits. And people wonder why manufacturing is dying out in the US ...
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
flydeltasjets
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:08 am

My God that guy is hot!
 
EvilForce
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 16):
That pilot on the right is extrodinarily good-looking!

 Big grin
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
rwsea
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.

Management is worth more in the marketplace than a pilot, FA, or mechanic. That's just the way it is.

Any company, airlines included, must pay management a competitive wage if they want to keep the talent.
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:21 am

Finally someone agreed!

(Just trying to blow my own horn! It's the first time I've been in any paper since the police blotter of my hometown weekly in high school!)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you are a new manager to a company (as many of these people are, relatively speaking, as they didn't cause the mess...) and you go from losing $1billion when you came on to earning $100 million, that's a turn around of $1.1 billion. Is there no reward for accomplishing something like that?

Of course, a lot of it has to do with oil prices, but some of it is directly related to getting the right kind of cuts in costs across the board, from routes to staff to redundancy.

Yet, the unions see the profit as proof that the cuts weren't necessary. The cuts are the only reason the profits exist!!!!

I work in a union business, and when people are working, they make TOO MUCH, which means that a lot of people don't get to work at all, and a lot of our jobs go to foreign countries where pay is lower. If unions were to understand that lowering the payscale keeps more people employed, this wouldn't happen. So I have little faith in the union managers being somehow smarter than the company managers. I see too many people out of work due to union minimums and rules being too expensive...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 21):
Finally someone agreed!

(Just trying to blow my own horn! It's the first time I've been in any paper since the police blotter of my hometown weekly in high school!)

And you got it in the uniform... gotta love it! I only get uniform pics of me by mom....



To most of the rest of you...... you make some interesting points...

[Edited 2007-02-01 01:58:16]
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
peterpuck
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:28 am

How much talent does it take to use chapter 11.
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
I am really curious how you think management in DEN could control the weather in DEN.

I guess that would be the ol' Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared!

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
unions started declining in the 80s

Wrong...Union membership peaked in the 50's, when 30% of the US working population belonged. Now membership is approximately 12%.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
The legacies in the US are dinosaurs. They are protected, coddled, and placated. They feed a army of special interest. And overall, not a single one of them have turned a profit over the last 40 years.

Umm...mmm....one word: W-R-O-N-G!

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
The LCC's have them beat on service, and on price, and on reliability.

Two words: Not correct!

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Your facts are simply wrong, because they are nothing more then emotion.

I'm thinking you meant "than" emotion: ROFLOL....wrong again.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
in the car business, companies without unions are more competitive and provide a better working environment, and usually better pay.

Facts and sources...please.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Or realize that there are places where wearing a union sticker doesn't mean "f*ck the company" at every turn.

I wear a union pin and I don't advocate "f*ck" the company; but I do take exception to when they expect us to bend over and take it without any protest (especially if they are in the other room pimping us out).

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
...that far more people are in the upper class in America...



Do you realize that 1% of the US Population controls 40% of the wealth? So, the "upper" class or those that think they are in that tier are mostly the class that is being squeezed and will soon be extinct.
 
detroitflyer
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:01 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 21):
Finally someone agreed!

(Just trying to blow my own horn! It's the first time I've been in any paper since the police blotter of my hometown weekly in high school!)

r u saying that, that person is you up there
Boiler Up!!!
 
tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with.

Exactly. The pilots have no understanding of financial matters when it comes to a large enterprise. None of the airlines are even close to earning a yield of 10% on revenue. Even in th best of times. Most industries can't survive on anything less than 5% over a long period of time. I stress again, over a long period of time. Over the long term, the airlines have yet to earn anything at all in aggregate. Pick any 10 year period.

Pilots were over paid in the past and those times will hopefully never come back , because if they do, we'll see another wave of BK in a few years.

And by the way, the PGBC will stand in line first to get it's money back. The Senate is tired of airline hand outs and the special treatment they've been getting. And as a tax payer I want the PGBC to get the money back before some unions say it's theirs.

Remember, the PGBC made it possible for all recent BKs to avoid total liquidation and to fight for another day.

If the economic reality of the airline business is such that airlines can't pay pilots $250/hour anymore, but more like $100/hour - then they'll have to accept that or do something else.

That's still about $100,000 a year in income - hardly poverty pay.

It's time for ailrines to be run like other profitable companies. Unions should also be aware that in the future, the US government is not likely to bail out anyone anymore. So there is no safety net anymore like there has been in even these current BKs, where they got legislation passed to extend payments on their underfunded liabilities.

The next airline that gets into trouble will be get the ice cold shoulder on capital hill. Count on that.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:00 pm

Bottom line, the pilots and other labor groups sacrificed alot to get these companies back on their feet. It's time to get their pay back. Having to thin your wallet out just because your shit-bag management can't do their jobs is never a welcome thing. In AA's case, they also manage to take money from the jar right in front of the pilots....great work Arpey.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 28):
Bottom line, the pilots and other labor groups sacrificed alot to get these companies back on their feet. It's time to get their pay back.

I don't know why people don't get it. but here it is. That pay scale was not sustainable. Period. As Newhouse mentions in his most recent book, going into the collapse pilots where the second highest paid group of professionals (only slightly) behind doctors. The difference is that the average doctor worked more then 40 hours a week, the average pilot about 30. That combined with managements spend it or loose it philosophies made it inevitable that the house of cards would collapse when the market couldn't sustain $4,000 redeyes from San Diego to New York.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):

I guess that would be the ol' Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared!

For what, the roads outside closing? It wasn't just the Airport that got stuck, the whole state got stuck. There were thousands of people stranded on I-70, I-36 and the other arteries. (I know, I was one).

The fact is that no one could deal with the situation, just like airports can't do anything other then close when a hurricane hits. To suggest otherwise betrays a deep ignorance, or a willing to spend billions on 20 year storm cycles. Either way, it's not a good way to run a company.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):
Umm...mmm....one word: W-R-O-N-G!

Facts and sources?

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):
(about union versus non-union pay)
Facts and sources...please.



Quote:

workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, Ky., plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Toyota usually is far higher on the best companies to work list as well IIRC.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):

I wear a union pin and I don't advocate "f*ck" the company; but I do take exception to when they expect us to bend over and take it without any protest (especially if they are in the other room pimping us out).

Bend over, here it comes has been the motto anytime a company tries to rationalize it's expenses.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):

Do you realize that 1% of the US Population controls 40% of the wealth? So, the "upper" class or those that think they are in that tier are mostly the class that is being squeezed and will soon be extinct.

Another emotional argument that the facts don't bear out:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
(look at the AGI numbers)

The top 1% earned 19% of the wealth last year, but paid 37% of the taxes.
 
tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 28):
Bottom line, the pilots and other labor groups sacrificed alot to get these companies back on their feet.

Other labor groups outside the Pilots I can agree with to some extent. But a pilot earning over 300k a year plus benefits plus a defined benefit retirement plan is just not sustainable. It's a recipe for BK.

Those were the good old days and are gone forever, hopefully. Any responsible management today will let a strike and shut down happen before agreeing to those pay scales again. Fire the lot and hire those willing to work for economically sustainable wages. The best thing the pilots should do is negotiate for profit sharing benefits, like Toyota.

Besides, the airlines have now moved to a defined contribution plan, from a defined benefit plan, so those juice retirement plans are never coming back, no matter what the unions do.

And the airlines are not on their feet yet, hardly any earn more than 6% on revenues. Those are razor thin margins and are barely enough to sustain the enterprise over the long term as it is.

Pilots really need to get a grip on reality. When Pan Am went under, most didn't believe management till the planes were grounded, from what I read.
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:38 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

Do we really need to get this started again? You are a Flight Attendant and you can't understand this situation taking place? (Yes or No question, not trying to start a discussion on the whole '8 hours stuck on a plane in AUS' thread(s)).

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 14):
It'll be interesting to see the Delta cheerleaders when the bonuses for management are announced post bankruptcy exit.

Yes, it certainly will be Evil. What, the merger talk is over and time to try to brew more crap? Let it go, it's done.....

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 16):
All good points, but the most important one remains...

That pilot on the right is extrodinarily good-looking!

Yes he is, according to my wife.

Have a great night all.....  Smile
Over-moderation sucks
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
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RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 27):
Exactly. The pilots have no understanding of financial matters when it comes to a large enterprise. None of the airlines are even close to earning a yield of 10% on revenue. Even in th best of times. Most industries can't survive on anything less than 5% over a long period of time. I stress again, over a long period of time. Over the long term, the airlines have yet to earn anything at all in aggregate. Pick any 10 year period.

Pilots were over paid in the past and those times will hopefully never come back , because if they do, we'll see another wave of BK in a few years.

I have to be honest... I find a lot of statements in this thread insulting. What gives any of you the right to degrade professionals and the salary's they rightfully deserve?

Tommytoyz, instead of saying that pilots have no understanding of financial matters when it comes to large enterprises I might flip it around and state they you might not have a true understanding of the airline industry, as it is not like any other industry. I should know, I've worked in it for a while now (and in various roles).

Furthermore, most of you hope that pilot pay will not increase, is it out of jealousy? Or is it because most of you have such a love/devotion for carrier XYZ or the industry as a whole that anything you view as a threat to its survival (pilot's wanting more money, F/A's wanting more days off, rampers striking) you simply view that labor group as the bad guy? I hate to tell you but you might want to try to put yourselves in the shoes of the people you so quickly insult on here. Most of you probably have no clue what it's like to work in this industry day in and day out. Furthermore, you have a lack of respect for these workers... they're people. You try to equate an hourly figure a pilot makes with the hourly figure that little Timmy at the grocery store makes sacking bags and think that its apples to apples... well, it's not. In addition, very few pilots were making the $250 or $300/hr that most assume they did pre 9/11. Is it wrong for a Captain that has been flying for 29 years, now flying the 777 internationally, within 2 years of retirement to make the highest pay of the pilot labor force? (at that $300/hr) No. Futhermore, do you think that all airline pilots start at the $200/hr? Please tell me you don't think that. So we were the second highest paid group next to doctors; the time and effort involved in getting this job might actually justify pilots being slightly behind doctors... ever think of that?

If you want to judge a pilot and say what is right in our life... what is right and fair in our world... then why don't you all judge me and my life?

Here's a breakdown for you:
- I'm 23 years old
- I fly for a regioanl airline in the US
- I have worked for other airlines after HS and during college as a ramper and also as a gate agent/customer service agent
- I have a 4 year degree in Management (ahhhh, most pilots don't have aviation degrees... we might actually know some stuff about things other than flying people around)
- I went to my university on a full ride academic scholarship
- I was on deans and presidents list throughout college
- I started to learn to fly in 2000
- I wanted to be an airline pilot since I was 4 years old
- I have loans somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 for my flight training and btw, my loans are on the low end compared to some of my friends
- Had I had to pay for college you could easily tack on $32,000 minimum for the university I went to... so my education cost in excess of $130,000... quite a bargain really
- After college and flight training, that still didn't qualify me to get into my profession, I still needed time... so I flight instructed. (better to get paid than shell any more money out)
- As a flight instructor I earned on average $1200.. PER MONTH. while paying back loans, on top of normal living expenses.. thank god for parent's letting me move back in with them.
- I will be forced out of my profession at 60 (65 soon?) and there is no recourse to stay in it... I HAVE to find another career or enter retirement at 60/65 which if you don't have a nice nest egg won't workout so hot (another reason pay is high)

So then I finally got back into the airline scene as a pilot what goes on now?
- I will at maximum fly no more, and get paid no more, than for 1000 hours in a YEAR (hence the higher hourly pay)
- My 4 day trip coming up next week has me flying/getting paid for around 21 hrs 15 minutes
- That same 4 day trip keeps me away from my home base (which is 4 hr commute from home by air) for a total of 76 hours and 08 minutes... so my 4 days of work, while not actually flying will keep me "at work" for almost DOUBLE a normal person's job.. hardly keeping bank hours...
- I get supplemented for my time away with a "per-diem" pay out... of around $1.60 per hour for time away from base... enough to buy food, etc...
- My job is on the line every 6 months for medical issues, fail a medical, no longer able to fly... try going against that obstacle for your entire professional career.
- My job is on the line every year in the sims in a proficiency check... gotta stay sharp.. keep you safe... while you say I'm overpaid...

So what about that training and sim stuff everyone seems to forget....
Try this on for size, in one of my sim sessions durring initial training I had the following thrown at me:
Flying out of DCA, take off like normal, abide by special departure procedures, night time setting, climbing through 4,000 to 5,000' experience a double engine failure... few more moments, the instructor gave us complete electrical failure. It may be a 1 in 5,000,000,000 scenario... but hey, it's training... so here we were at 4,000+ feet, over Washington, DC with no engines, no electrical, and no way to start the APU to start the engines.. total glider in the dark... all we had was the standby's and a few other things that are on our hot bus... you know what... you all would have been scared in the back.. but you all would have lived; my flight partner and I, working together (he was PNF, I was PF) turned the plane back around, glided to the airport, and landed safely... We did emergency after emergency after emergency in training... Oh, yeah, and that's while having a sim session from Midnight to 7 AM.... Try functioning and being at the top of your game at 3:30 in the morning after having to be at peak for the previous 2 and half hours already in the box.

BTW, during initial training, at my company, we're not officially employees yet so we don't get regular pay, we receive 1 pay check of "per-diem" value for the length of training so we can buy food etc... besides that, we also are compensated through them putting us up in the hotels and providing us with transportation home on days off...

I would love to see other industries do that... Hire you, put you into 2 months of training, and give you around $1400 to last you that time... see how many people still take the job.

So, here's the best part... my total pay for the year... if I'm lucky... might be around $25,000. That's it guys... that's my reality, and I'm at one of the best regional airlines.

The major guys did give up a lot in post 9/11, that should show you how the pilots really do understand their company and the situation it faced... But, as revenues are starting to come back, so should their compensation (whether it be direct hourly compensation or raising the minimum monthly hours, etc). The part that the pilots and other work groups fight about, is corporate greed, which does exist. Even at your beloved airlines. Should a CEO be "bought out" to force him to leave? waisting millions of dollars? NO, they should be able to be fired with no compensation like the rest of us. Upper management should be held accountable for their actions just like everyone else. As far as upper level compensation for retention... No one is saying that they shouldn't be compensated for their job... in many instances Airline upper management is also grossly underpaid compared to other industries. The sticking point though is as employees take the cuts, so should management. As management starts to give themselves raises, they should pass SOME of that on to the labor group that helped them out. NO WHERE does it say they want an immediate return to prior levels, they just want SOME assistance to return to normalcy.

Now, I could have gone into other careers. I could have said the money is terrible. I could say that I'm away from home too much. But guess what... I LOVE my job. I love my industry. I love my passengers (in general). I love my coworkers... and I'm very proud of my company and value being a part of it. That doesn't stop me from saying I think we're underpaid for the responsibility and demands of the job and that the major guys deserve every penny they make... Thankfully, most people and passengers are not even close to acting like some of the people on here. They are the ones that truly make the job fulfilling. You have no clue what it's like when a kid walks into the cockpit for the first time and is captivated by it, and looks up to you for no reason other than you're a pilot. Or the feeling you get inside when you help some little old lady find the gate she's looking for only to get paid back with a big smile and a "thank you." It's all about respect people. Treat us like you would want to be treated. We're people too. So please, don't judge people without even knowing them. It only shows your own lack of character.
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 32):
So please, don't judge people without even knowing them. It only shows your own lack of character.



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 32):
I have to be honest... I find a lot of statements in this thread insulting. What gives any of you the right to degrade professionals and the salary's they rightfully deserve?

I have only judged the business understanding of the pilot's in aggregate as represented by their unions' actions and statements over the years. That's fair.

Your story of struggling to get into the pilots seat is one many people have around the world. We all struggle. Know that your not alone in your struggles. But your struggles are not an entitlement to be paid highly or even anything at all.

Those are economic realities. The airlines industry is exactly like any other in financial terms. All are alike if they are to survive. If you want a return on investment, return on or of capital, profit margins, etc... all industries are alike. In the end, these numbers are the what they are and are calculated according to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) - which are set by FASB (Financial Accounting Standards Board).

You, dear Pinnacle Kid, may think you deserve and are entitled to high pay and benefits due to your suffering or perceived "different" status. But money is money and doesn't care about your struggles, expectations and perceptions.

I know most starting pilots earn starvation wages, and that's not what I'm pointing out nor talking about. Its the average pay at some airlines or the past pay they used to get that helped sink the airlines.

Those wages are never coming back.

I used to help those little old ladies in LAX airport for 10 years. I have my private license and and fly for fun but I certainly earn more than the average legacy pilot by far.

I've struggled for years as well, but I never felt that because of that I'm entitled to anything. I earn everything I make because of me. Those are the advantages of being self employed. It's so obvious and clear.

When I was working for the airlines I knew I would never make any kind of money there and was never in it for the money. I just loved helping those little old ladies and even not so old ones. It was fun, and that's a currency much better than Dollars.

I have only judged the business understanding of the pilot's in aggregate as represented by their unions' actions and statements over the years. That's fair.

If you feel insulted by criticism of the pilots and their unions that's your business and not my fault.

Be glad you love your job and have it. But be aware of financial realities, lest you be disappointed.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with.

Sorry, pilots were not responsible for recession, 911, and overcapacity.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
you go from losing $1billion when you came on to earning $100 million, that's a turn around of $1.1 billion. Is there no reward for accomplishing something like that?

Exactly. Give the pilots something back for their contributions to profitability.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 29):
The difference is that the average doctor worked more then 40 hours a week, the average pilot about 30.

So the average pilot is only away from home 1.25 days per week? When you see a pilot in the terminal, or during boarding, he is not getting paid. Your comparison is way off base.

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 30):
Other labor groups outside the Pilots I can agree with to some extent. But a pilot earning over 300k a year plus benefits plus a defined benefit retirement plan is just not sustainable. It's a recipe for BK.

You just described less than 1% of pilots. And for those that ARE senior UPS and FedEx pilots, I would say that it is indeed sustainable, based on those companies huge year over year profits.

[Edited 2007-02-02 02:11:08]
FLYi
 
tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 34):
And for those that ARE senior UPS and FedEx pilots, I would say that it is indeed sustainable, based on those companies huge year over year profits.

Good point. So it matters what the economic viability of the airline is. If it's low, you can't expect pilot pay the same those at UPS or FEDEX.

Not all Pilots can be paid the same at all companies, it doesn't work that way.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 34):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with.

Sorry, pilots were not responsible for recession, 911, and overcapacity.

Sorry, but none of the above drove airlines to BK as is proven by the airlines that did avoid BK. Bad business decisions are to blame, including granting pilots pay and benefits that were not supportable, obviously.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 34):
Exactly. Give the pilots something back for their contributions to profitability.

The BK airlines were not profitable because of the high costs and low productivity. You want to go back to that again?

I rest my case. Pilot pay and productivity is an important part of an airline's economic viability. And not every airlines can be a UPS or FEDEX.

And I'm not talking about the underapid pilots making 25k a year but the past average pay of mainline tenured pilots had, before they went BK.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 32):
- That same 4 day trip keeps me away from my home base (which is 4 hr commute from home by air) for a total of 76 hours and 08 minutes... so my 4 days of work, while not actually flying will keep me "at work" for almost DOUBLE a normal person's job.. hardly keeping bank hours...

This quote always kills me, you chose not to live in the city you are based out of and then whine about it?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
peterpuck
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:59 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 36):
This quote always kills me, you chose not to live in the city you are based out of and then whine about it?

Sometimes pilots have established lives in one place and get a new job in another. Like he said it's not like working in a bank. Most pilots don't whine about this, it just is the way it is. This doesn't change the fact that pilots on a four day trip, are away from home for four days, even if they live at their base. It always kills me when people like you don't get it.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 37):
Sometimes pilots have established lives in one place and get a new job in another. Like he said it's not like working in a bank. Most pilots don't whine about this, it just is the way it is. This doesn't change the fact that pilots on a four day trip, are away from home for four days, even if they live at their base. It always kills me when people like you don't get it.

Buddy I get it more then you'll ever know! Also if you read his post he is not a pilot, currently he is a FA, not that it matters. If you chose to live in a city other then where you are based then suck it up and don't complain about it. Like mom always said, "you made your bed now lie in it!"
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 37):
Sometimes pilots have established lives in one place and get a new job in another. Like he said it's not like working in a bank. Most pilots don't whine about this, it just is the way it is. This doesn't change the fact that pilots on a four day trip, are away from home for four days, even if they live at their base. It always kills me when people like you don't get it.

Thank you!

Pitrules,
Thank you too!

Luv2fly,
I never complained about my commute, matter of fact, I love the opportunity to be able to NOT live where I work, I can live where I choose. But, like Peterpuck pointed out... that doesn't negate that my 4 days of work is not like a banker or lawyers 4 days of work... No where did i whine or complain about my commute... once again, people on here are always quick to judge and place resentment at others... its pretty sad.


Tommytoyz,
Man, you make me wait and cool down before I try to respond to you... I never said my "struggles" were a struggle or an "entitlement"... I wasn't trying to devalue someone elses job.. nor did I. I simply put down the background of myself so maybe you could understand that it isn't your place to judge. It isn't your place to say what pay I or any other pilot receives is fair. Nor is it my place to say if your pay is fair or if you should make "less" in my eyes. It simply is this... not your place to judge. Furthermore, the airline industry is NOT like other industries... it simply isn't. The returns have never been like other industries, the margins have never been like other industries... An acceptable or good return on investment is not at the same percentages as other industries. Man, a quick watch of the MSNBC "Inside American Airlines" would help you a ton in seeing the differences.

As far as "those wages are never coming back"... I would be willing to bet a small fortune that they will infact return if not exceed previous values in time. The true reality is that... more planes are being put into the air by airlines, less people are becoming pilots, a lot of pilots are nearing retirement. Looks like a simple issue of supply and demand... Demand increasing, supply decreasing... Looks like pilot values will be going up if you ask me... give it some years and we'll find out.

Finally... if you would have looked at my background you would have seen something... I wanted to be an airline pilot since I was 4. SINCE I WAS FOUR... I don't do this for money. I don't do this for you. I do this for myself. Because I truly love to fly. I worked hard through high school, through college, through training... for myself. I worked hard just like others have to get where I WANTED TO BE. I personally believe that you can't be happy in life unless you follow your OWN deepest dreams. That's what I did. That's why I am an airline pilot. I never could personally be happy doing anything else but flying and sharing my passion of flying with others and thankfully, I do look forward to getting compensated PROPORITIONATELY for the responsibility placed upon my job... as AGREED upon by the company AND the unions in our CONTRACTS...
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 38):
Buddy I get it more then you'll ever know! Also if you read his post he is not a pilot, currently he is a FA, not that it matters

Ummm... you might want to edit that Luv2fly... I have never been a Flight Attendant... I have been a ramper... a Customer Service Agent... and I am currently a First Officer..

On a total aside... I also have the perspective that both sides (mgmt and labor) should work together and should compromise... I would say productivity is an area that needed to be addressed, more than pay actually... I see unions do stupid things and demand stupid things at times... but you know what.. i've seen mgmt make stupid outrageous demands as well... some that would downright compromise safety... and thats at various airlines... That's why unions are there... it is a great system of checks and balances. And btw, if they company didn't think that the pay and former productivity was acceptable they wouldn't have signed the contracts.. it isn't a union gets what they want everytime world... that is why it is a contract.. its composed of pure compromises on both sides of the aisle. All that is happening now is the "temporary" cuts that were taken are coming due for renegotiation....

[Edited 2007-02-02 04:18:25]

[Edited 2007-02-02 04:28:35]
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 40):
Ummm... you might want to edit that Luv2fly... I have never been a Flight Attendant... I have been a ramper... a Customer Service Agent... and I am currently a First Officer..

Sorry my bad for that. For the record I do think you for one get the whole picture and I hope you did not feel like I was picking on you.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
xjet
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:09 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:39 pm

PinnacleKid,

Kudos! I couldn't have had that conversation. I have been sitting here sweating bullets listening to what is being said about our profession. You are one of the good guys!
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting XJET (Reply 42):
Kudos! I couldn't have had that conversation. I have been sitting here sweating bullets listening to what is being said about our profession. You are one of the good guys!

And that goes "ditto" for the flight attendants. Most of the aviation "enthusiasts" posting just don't get it (now, maybe a few will understand).
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:54 pm

AA earned $200+ million this year. That sounds great after the past five years, but it hardly enough to fund fleet replacement of the MD80's. AA is only profitable because they're flying all of those Mad Dogs.

Continental, on the other hand, continues to renew its fleet and is profitable. Southwest too.

But these relatively small profits by airlines flying old fleets is not enough to warrant huge pilot pay increases. Billion dollar annual profits are needed to make fund the future with increased wages.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 34):
So the average pilot is only away from home 1.25 days per week? When you see a pilot in the terminal, or during boarding, he is not getting paid. Your comparison is way off base.

Not at all. I do massive consulting engagements around the world. I transit all the time, I am on call all the time. I get paid for none of that. Also it was not my analysis, but Newhouse's, one of the most respected names in journalism.

Work is hard, and pay sucks no matter what you do. Short of being the King of all oil land, no one is paid what they think they deserve. It's been that way since Adam got thrown out of the garden. Airline pay on average is significantly higher then most other occupations. That's fine, they deserve it, but it's just as obvious that the excessive pay was one of the largest reasons the airlines have been in and out of chapter 11. Waiting until the carrier emerges, and then immediatly demanding more pay isn't going to make the carrier profitable.

[Edited 2007-02-02 07:11:10]
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:35 pm

XJET... thanks man... I 'preciate it... I'm H-town based as of the new March base advancements... maybe I'll see ya sometime... feel free to direct msg me on here...

CO767FA... you know.. I know how much you guys are looked down upon, how much you guys get picked on... but in all actuality.. you guys have one of the hardest jobs in our industry if you ask me... at least in my current role, we get to the shut and lock the door for the flight.. and when I was a customer service agent.. I got to at least put the passengers on the plane and "ship them away" when it was one of those days... but as a Flight Attendant.. man, that's just rough... I remember having to put an angry group of passengers on planes after it was hours late arriving for one reason or another... and I just always felt bad... through no fault of theirs they were suddenly faced with a group of mad irritated passengers and they were THE airline at that point... and every single passenger wanted to vent on them... and their is absolutely no escape from it to regroup... you just have to keep the composure nonstop and carry on and TRY to get them back to being comfortable and relaxed... I feel for you... I def. think F/A pay is too low...
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
Not at all. I do massive consulting engagements around the world. I transit all the time, I am on call all the time.

And I assume the pay you make when you actually are at work more than adequately compensates for the transit time. Same idea with pilots.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
it's just as obvious that the excessive pay was one of the largest reasons the airlines have been in and out of chapter 11.

Excessive pay is hardly one of the largest reasons airlines have been in and out of bankruptcy. Pilot pay would be way behind recession, increased fuel costs, over capacity, and depressed yields.

If pilots were to get a small, but consistant raise over their career, that would be great. But the fact that managements use CH 11 to drastically cut back wages and benefits first leaves employee groups no choice but to try to get as much back as possible when times are good.
FLYi
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:48 pm

The industry has lost $35 BILLION since 9/11. The airlines need to start recouping a few billion BEFORE any talk of raises for crying out loud.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 47):

Excessive pay is hardly one of the largest reasons airlines have been in and out of bankruptcy. Pilot pay would be way behind recession, increased fuel costs, over capacity, and depressed yields.

Economists disagree with you. Since airlines can't exactly change the cost of fuel when they go into chapter 11, can't change the overall economic mood of the country, can't magically increase yields when in bankruptcy, why is it that you think things get better to the where the airline can pay it's books while in ch 11?

That's right. They reduce costs. The biggest portion of which is.... pay.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 47):
If pilots were to get a small, but consistant raise over their career, that would be great. But the fact that managements use CH 11 to drastically cut back wages and benefits first leaves employee groups no choice but to try to get as much back as possible when times are good.

Pilots have a history of saying that, and then demanding the best pay scales in the industry or STRIKE when negotiations come along. The best pay scales inevitably lead to the worst over head costs, and the whole cycle starts again.

I'm not whitewashing bad management choices here. I think the DL + US merger failing is a classic example of bad airline management, and will eventually lead to DL crashing back down to earth after they emerge from bankruptcy, but pilots are just as involved in this particular little murder-suicide pact.

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