BA787
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KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:18 am

Following the thread on KL 733s, I thought I'd ask what the future looks like for the KL Fokkers. AKAI can see, they seem to be aging a bit and given Fokkers..ahem... inactivity, what will replace them?

F70/F100 fleet is 16.5 average years of age

F50 is 10.5 average years of age.

Both are quite high, especially for regional aircraft
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:32 am

The Fokker fleet is in the process of receiving a cabin retrofit, so I'd venture to say that KLM is not about to let go of these aircraft, which seem to perfectly serve their purpose within the airline's regional network.
 
sllevin
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:56 am

KL recently inked a deal for maintenance of these birds for a number of years...so I think you'll see them around another 7-10 years.

Steve
 
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yowza
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:42 am

I'm glad to here the Fokkers will be around for a while, they're great little birds. Although I would also love to see some Embraers in KL colours.

YOWza
 
rootsair
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:46 am

KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When? (by RootsAir Aug 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
F50 is 10.5 average years of age

This cannot be the case, production stopped before 1996.

I guess the only available option is the Emb 190/195.

Embraer took a gamble & is now king of the hill.

Other real options are on paper only.

I specified a merge the Dornier, GTF & Green Aircraft designs & Henry Lam made an AI, not coincidently in KLC colors.

http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...2927184&s=keesje+100-130#ID2927184
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
A388
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I specified a merge the Dornier, GTF & Green Aircraft designs & Henry Lam made an AI, not coincidently in KLC colors.

Nice design on that aircraft I must say  Smile

A388
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:58 am

I've been on a few KL F100s and F70s recently and they all seemed to be in good condition including the interiors. I also find their seats more comfortable than KL's 737s.
 
Ndebele
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:27 pm

Two additional F100s have been delivered to KLM yesterday: PH-OFO (ex PT-MRS) and PH-OFP (ex PT-MRP). Source: http://skyliner-aviation.de/
 
EGBJ
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:13 pm

Now that F70/100 production is shut down, and Fokker are long gone, how do KLM maintain these birds? Do they have a hard time sourcing spare parts etc and do you think they'd consider buying the new Rekkof birds whenever (if ever) they are built.
 
trinxat
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I've been on a few KL F100s and F70s recently and they all seemed to be in good condition including the interiors. I also find their seats more comfortable than KL's 737s.

wow, I can't agree to that! Specialy if you compare them to the new extra-thin Recaro seats that KL 738/9 have. The fokker seats are too stiff, and the cabin feels very tight for a 2-3 seating. I wonder how much narrow is the F100 cabin compared to a 717, as it feels considerably more claustrophobic

I hate those fokkers, I always try to avoid KLM cityhopper because of them. I would rather fly on a CRJ or a BAe146 or an E170 with no hesitation.
 
HAM
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:33 pm

Recently I´ve been on a refurbished F100 and it seemed modern enough for the coming 5-10 years. I guess the average passenger will think it´s a modern plane and won´t complain about those Fokkers. I like them because they´re different than all the As and Bs - for example with those egg-shaped windows. It´s also nice to fly to the Netherlands on a plane which has been built in that country.
 
Mennix
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:52 pm

I love the F 50. If I fly from CGN or DUS to AMS they mostly have the F 50. Best is at stormy weather. It is incredible to see how this small planes handles the strong winds at AMS. After one of those flights you know what flying is.
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Cityhopper will take-in more 'newer' F100's to replace 'older' ones, to extend the operation of this aircraft for a few more years, until a suitable replacement can be found (Sukhoi RRJ ?), so, basically 'buying some time' this way...

Ndebele:

Only PH-OFP was delivered yesterday, 31/01/07, as KL7151 from WOE to AMS...PH-OFO will take some more weeks to grace SPL's runway  Smile
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 9):
and Fokker are long gone

As explained a zillion times production of new A/C's stopped but Fokker did not.

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 9):
do KLM maintain these birds?

KL doesn't.
Martinair, Roissy and Fokker Services do.

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 9):
Do they have a hard time sourcing spare parts etc

Nope, we supply everything needed and if not available produce new.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 10):
I wonder how much narrow is the F100 cabin compared to a 717

Dimensions are virtally the same for virtually the same number of pax.
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=111
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=221

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 10):
as it feels considerably more claustrophobic



Quoting Trinxat (Reply 10):
I would rather fly on a CRJ

 rotfl 
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Tom12
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:20 pm

The Safetly record for there F100/70's and 50's seems to be pretty good as well. There has only been one or two seruious incidents with the type.

Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
JAGflyer
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:47 am

What routes does KLM use the turboprop Fokkers on?
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 16):
What routes does KLM use the turboprop Fokkers on?

EIN-LHR
and from AMS to:
MST/LUX/BRU/CGN/HAJ/BRE/DUS/KRS/HUY/NWI/CWL/BRS/LBA/LCY
 
Humberside
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 17):
EIN-LHR

Are they on RTM-LHR as well?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Ndebele (Reply 8):
Two additional F100s have been delivered to KLM yesterday: PH-OFO (ex PT-MRS) and PH-OFP (ex PT-MRP).



Quoting MH017 (Reply 13):
Only PH-OFP was delivered yesterday, 31/01/07, as KL7151 from WOE to AMS...PH-OFO will take some more weeks to grace SPL's runway

11462/PT-MRS, the future PH-OFO was recently ferried to WOE for overhaul. It will be delivered to KLM in a couple of weeks.

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 9):
Now that F70/100 production is shut down, and Fokker are long gone, how do KLM maintain these birds? Do they have a hard time sourcing spare parts etc

The Dutch company Stork took over parts of Fokker. So spare parts and maintenace are secured through Fokker Services http://www.fokkerservices.com/
 
Garri767
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 10):
I hate those fokkers



hey hey hey....kids read this board, watch your langueage!  Silly  Wink (cheap joke, i know :P)

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 10):
I would rather fly on a CRJ

 faint 





I for one have never flown on the fokker , and have nothing to say about it besides i kinda like the way it looks from the exterior. I would however rather try one of the 50s/70s/100s instead of a CRJ200  Wink
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 18):
Are they on RTM-LHR as well?

yes, I forgot that one..  Cool
 
kappel
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
Although I would also love to see some Embraers in KL colours.

IMHO you will see a dash8 or ATR in KLM colours first.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 14):
do KLM maintain these birds?

KL doesn't.

they do mainly in Norwich

http://www.klmukengineering.co.uk/content/home.asp
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 19):
So spare parts and maintenace are secured through Fokker

Apart from the spares and A/C mx(Woensdrecht), component mx(Schiphol) also product engineering, design engineering, customer support, space, elmo(wiring for Airbus, Boeing, JSF etc..), aerostructures(glare and other structural items for A and B etc....).
All in all 10.000 employees still(and/or again) in business and to give a little impression: when I started at Fokker in 1980 we had a total of 6000 people, at the highest peak around 12.000 and at the time Fokker went broke around 8000.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 22):
ATR in KLM colours

KLMexel used to fly with the ATR

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0884704/M/
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I guess the only available option is the Emb 190/195.

If they want to stay with jets. Given the high fuel prices isn't it a possibility we may see a switch to larger props?

Quoting MH017 (Reply 13):
Only PH-OFP was delivered yesterday, 31/01/07

What airline takes delivery of 3 new aircraft in 2 days  Cool? Good job KLM! PH-BQO (T7) yesterday and PH-AOH (A332) today. Brand new birds, those.

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 20):
hey hey hey....kids read this board, watch your language!

Some passengers get it, others don't when I shake my head and say 'those little Fokkers again', when they get in late and miss their connection Cool
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
they do mainly in Norwich

I am sorry Keesje but that's incorrect but I don't know what to think of this website.

In the past KL/UK did indeed mx for the KL/UK fleet(F100) and Martinair for the KL/C F70 fleet.
KL/UK as operator is no more and all frames went to KL/C.
Fokker services struck a deal and bought all spares parts back.
The contract is between KL/C and Fokker Services even KL's own E&M is left out of it(in the old situation KL/C contracted KL E&M who contracted Fokker).
KL/UK remains as engineering plant and probably some mx too as they are free to contract other operators......... apart from KL/C of course.
Concerning component mx:
http://stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200610/1081207

Currently(if I am correct)
Martinair - Line mx
Roissy(hangar 73) - A & B checks (ps. Roissy is part of Air France, does it make sense now? )
Fokker(EHAM/WOE) - Heavy mx + component mx.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
sllevin
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I specified a merge the Dornier, GTF & Green Aircraft designs & Henry Lam made an AI, not coincidently in KLC colors.

That's a wicked cool airplane. I gotta get me one of those.  Smile

Steve
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 27):
I am sorry Keesje but that's incorrect but I don't know what to think of this website.

- KLM E&M does (heavy) airframe checks on F50, F70 and F100 since it took over KLM UK long ago.
- F50 Line Miantenance is done at SPL by Nayak
- F70/100 Engine maintenance are outsoured to RR
- F70/100 used to be contracted to KLM E&M who outsourced to Stork Fokker/ services. Half a year ago KLM E&M decided to step out. KLc now outsources directly to Fokker Services (Abacus)
- Light Miantenance at SPL F70 udes to be a Martinair contract, F100 used to be KLM but I don´t now the latest status. KLM E&M didn´t see it as a core business no longer.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
KLM E&M does (heavy) airframe checks on F50, F70 and F100 since it took over KLM UK long ago.

Don't agree.
For example the ex TAM frames go to WOE for heavy mx and/or overhaul not Norwich, KL E&M is not involved in anything.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 19):
11462/PT-MRS, the future PH-OFO was recently ferried to WOE for overhaul. It will be delivered to KLM in a couple of weeks



Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
F50 Line Miantenance is done at SPL by Nayak

 checkmark 

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
F70/100 used to be contracted to KLM E&M who outsourced to Stork Fokker/ services.

 checkmark 

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Half a year ago KLM E&M decided to step out.

E&M did not decide anything, they are just passed by.
I am in contact with some of them on a daily basis(by coincidence had a conversation about the issue today with an E&M employee) and even though they were in the process of investing money for the new capabilities work was taken away from underneath their hands without warning.
We are amused but they are not.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Light Miantenance at SPL F70 udes to be a Martinair contract

 checkmark 
Now they have'm all(since KL/UK left 73), F70 and F100.
However A and B checks(and other repairs) are done in the former Fokker hangar 73 by Roissy(Air France).
Also without interference from E&M, the current status is probably that Martinair is passing the work thru as they still have the contract and probably not enough man power for the whole fleet.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
KLM E&M didn´t see it as a core business no longer.

If you ask me they never had it as core business.
E&M never touched a Fokker screw after the initial order of 6 frames were passed on to KL/UK.

But then again.......... who cares.
 bored 
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
kappel
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting SK601 (Reply 25):
KLMexel used to fly with the ATR

Yeah, forgot about that one  Big grin
So I guess I'm right huh?

No, what I mean is KLC of course. IMHO ATR(72) or Dash8(400) will replace the F50 and F70, and if they decide to build a 100 seat prop, who knows, it might replace the F100
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
JRadier
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 31):
No, what I mean is KLC of course. IMHO ATR(72)

like these  Wink


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Howard Chaloner

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 30):
KLM E&M does (heavy) airframe checks on F50, F70 and F100 since it took over KLM UK long ago.

Don't agree.

 Confused

KLM UK Engineering is a full KLM Engineering & Maintenance daugter. It perfroms heavy maintenance on F50, F70, F100, BEA146/ARJ for many years and recently stepped into the 737NG market.

http://www.klmukengineering.co.uk/_Attachments/Resources/27_S4.JPG
KLc F70 at Norwich.

Capability overview:
http://www.klmukengineering.co.uk/content/prod-aircraft.asp
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DONS
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 30):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
KLM E&M does (heavy) airframe checks on F50, F70 and F100 since it took over KLM UK long ago.

Don't agree.
For example the ex TAM frames go to WOE for heavy mx and/or overhaul not Norwich, KL E&M is not involved in anything.

Keesje is right. Even the F70 now goes to NWI for heavy mx, not to Fokker. The ex TAM frames already received it's c-check at TAM. Fokker is only performing comminality mods and some post delivery mods.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 30):
However A and B checks(and other repairs) are done in the former Fokker hangar 73 by Roissy(Air France).

Roissy only performs A-checks, B-checks and still some A-checks done by Martinair. BTW, I thought Roissy was a UK based independent company, how did you get the info it's owned by Air France?

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 14):
Quoting EGBJ (Reply 9):
Do they have a hard time sourcing spare parts etc

Nope, we supply everything needed and if not available produce new.

Fortunately that's not true, with those prices. We do have a hard time, and are sourcing globaly almost on a daily basis. Indeed Fokker can supply everything needed, but when you're AOG you can not wait on Fokker when they have no stock available. Producing parts takes time, and that can take a very long time. Sometimes for more than a year.
 
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yowza
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:39 am

On the off chance that KL are looking for a few more F100s three gathering dust at KTM. They were operated by Cosmic Air till last year but have been in storage since. Their fourth F100 is the only operational one, it's on lease from a Frnech firm. Any chance of that happening?

YOWza
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
On the off chance that KL are looking for a few more F100s three gathering dust at KTM. They were operated by Cosmic Air till last year but have been in storage since. Their fourth F100 is the only operational one, it's on lease from a Frnech firm. Any chance of that happening?

No chance, I would say. Cosmic Air completely stopped flying last year. Two of the 4 Fokker 100s, 11264/9N-AHO and 11351/9N-AHN, have been stored at XSP. They will soon be delivered to Air Niugini. The third 11485/9N-AHG is stored at KTM and will reportedly be scrapped. I don't know what's going to happen with the fourth one 11450/9N-AHI
 
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yowza
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 36):
No chance, I would say. Cosmic Air completely stopped flying last year. Two of the 4 Fokker 100s, 11264/9N-AHO and 11351/9N-AHN, have been stored at XSP. They will soon be delivered to Air Niugini. The third 11485/9N-AHG is stored at KTM and will reportedly be scrapped. I don't know what's going to happen with the fourth one 11450/9N-AHI

Thanks for the info. I assumed Cosmic was still flying as I saw one of their Fokkers moving around the periphery of KTM recently.

YOWza
 
AMSSFO
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 37):
Thanks for the info. I assumed Cosmic was still flying as I saw one of their Fokkers moving around the periphery of KTM recently.

That's interesting, maybe they restarted flying? They stopped suddenly last October. At that time it was reported by a local newspaper that the flights would remain suspended till the end of October for maintenance work on the single aircraft. However, the report also said Cosmic Air was in deep financial trouble, having borrowed heavily from banks and unable to pay employees for months! It didn't seem likely that they would be able to restart. But who knows?
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13069
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting DONS (Reply 34):
BTW, I thought Roissy was a UK based independent company, how did you get the info it's owned by Air France?

I'd like to know that as well. When somebody says Roissy, I instantly think of the airport in Roissy, which is CDG.
 
BA787
Topic Author
Posts: 2381
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RE: KLM Fokkers: Future

Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:46 am

I personally like the Fokkers, and was told by a friend that they were nicer than the company MD-11s. Thanks for all the input to this thread. I hope we continue to see these great a/c for a few years at least

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